Necromancer or Enchanter - dungeon charming?

[Bristlebaner]

I'm at a crossroads currently. I have both a necro and enchanter in the mid 40s. I would like to focus on one, but looking for some insight.

I enjoy charming, which is certainly the enchanter's best attribute. I also enjoy being lazy sometimes and fear kiting or just FD when the doorbell rings mid fight (+1 for necro)

That being said, I have heard necro's can charm sufficiently at higher levels (My highest necro on live was 54 and I never used charm). How would a necro compare to an enchanter in HS? I'm probably more concerned with being able to get to the good loot in dungeons than for XP grind purposes. Can a necro solo in the hole? sebilis? I feel like without sufficient undead it really puts the breaks on necro dungeon crawling.

[Tecmos Deception]

The gist of it is this: a necro can charm for loot in most of the same dungeons a chanter can, but it takes a lot more effort, finesse, and luck to do it.

The necro does probably have superior XPing tools though, and better tools for farming lower-level stuff or killing a single tough mob in a zone where the chanter can't get a decent pet to work with.

[Crawdad]

I'm at a crossroads currently. I have both a necro and enchanter in the mid 40s. I would like to focus on one, but looking for some insight.

I enjoy charming, which is certainly the enchanter's best attribute. I also enjoy being lazy sometimes and fear kiting or just FD when the doorbell rings mid fight (+1 for necro)

That being said, I have heard necro's can charm sufficiently at higher levels (My highest necro on live was 54 and I never used charm). How would a necro compare to an enchanter in HS? I'm probably more concerned with being able to get to the good loot in dungeons than for XP grind purposes. Can a necro solo in the hole? sebilis? I feel like without sufficient undead it really puts the breaks on necro dungeon crawling.

From what I've seen, the 'good loot' soloers can be summed up as (Shaman)>Enchanter>Necro, with the drawbacks being (Price tag)>Wet paper bag>fewer 'good loot' camps.

You can rake in cash with any of them and dungeon crawl with any of them, but they'll make you curse for different reasons.

Ench and Necro are both very fun and powerful classes, but if all you want to do is solo 'good loot' camps and do crazy things, I'd say Ench is the way to go (and to also read/watch anything and everything Tecmos posts).

[Tecmos Deception]

I always take issue with chanters being called stuff like "wet paper bag" because while they don't have a bunch of actual HP or the ability to heal, they have all kinds of tools to entirely avoid damage except when really pushing the extreme of what can be solod (like emperor in seb or shit that hits for 300 and is really magic resistant in velious, etc).

Getting summoned by typical 51-55 stuff that hits for like 160 and only resists 1 in 3 spells after tash is no biggie when you've got 1000 hp in runes and multiple ae stuns that cast nearly instantly and AE mez and whatnot, especially if you're wealthy enough to use consumables like WC hats and wands of allure and shaman potions when needed to ensure you don't lose a named kill.

I'm behind the times though. I haven't played at high end since some changes to AC and pets and resists, and I haven't spent any time (except on beta server) in the higher Velious zones.


But back on point, I agree overall with Crawdad.

[Bristlebaner]

That all sounds fair.

If only going AFK was easier on ench :p

[Tecmos Deception]

That all sounds fair.

If only going AFK was easier on ench :p

It isn't too bad really. It just depends on you knowing the zone/area you're in very well.

Know the safe spots, and you can go there and AFK or log knowing you won't log back in to death. Know paths and spawn locations and respawn time, and you can AFK safely right on top of a camp (at least for a while). Know what sees invis and doesn't, and you can use improved invis for a safe afk period. Know what sees invis and doesn't, and you can log off in a spot where when you come back in invis/IVU you'll still be ok. Etc.

Not as convenient as casting feign and wandering off for an indefinite period of time... but not TOO bad.

[Llodd]

Id say anywhere other than hs south\east chanter will do better. When the shit hits the fan and you're dealing with summoners popping that DA and (trying to) FD at a safe spot is worth its weight in gold.

Still haven't got round to trying solo otw to crypt as nec. Tons of undead down there.

Hole undead tower is rough as hell. Those undead have ridiculously high resists. Charm breaks constantly. But in the city its viable.

Being able to summon and rez yourself is really nice if you like going full crazy.:)

[Tecmos Deception]

I'd love to see a video of a necro doing work in south or east! There's always a few necros who post and say they've done it, but I've never seen anyone doing it.

DA and FD isn't going to work better against summoners in HS than a chanter could, anyways. Chanter is just going to keep everything fettered nonstop and when charm breaks, even if both pet and mob you want dead are summoners, you just run forwards while burning their summon timers, then you have 6 seconds or so to get them both mezzed before they can summon again. Then you can reroot both, recharm pet, mez enemy again so that it doesn't summon you before pet re-engages, resume fight as normal. What's a necro do? Run out of melees like chanter does then feign and reset fight from the beginning? Run out and try to ST both of them before their summon timers are up again, then try to get 2 PEs and charm cast before the first ST wears off?

[Bristlebaner]

That's my conundrum. I feel like necros lack key tools to manage these situations.

If I want to solo something as simple as LGuk live side - doubt 49 pet can tank super effectively and if I pull 2-3 mobs I will likely lose pet and end up resetting.

Or let's say I want to hunt in Velious. Not many undead mobs. Pet tanking is fail with a necro 50+.

[Llodd]

Well I guess it mustn't be true.

I phrased it wrong. When you're dealing with lvl51+ mobs (not all are) trying to break a room and you get a critical resist and 3+ mobs come at you all with HT's, necro is going to survive more often than a chanter (then you have yourself a tricky CR). Even in north and west with cha gear those crit resists are a thing, though obviously not as frequent. You can even send in a regular pet whilst fd to burn those HT's , something a chanter cant do. For sure in normal fighting situations chanter will fare better, but ime shit happens , you get stunned, spells get interrupted or resisted and before you know it you're dead. It's nice to have that measure of safety to fall back on. FYI necro mez has a recast timer so you cant do what youre suggesting. You'd be better off mezing the pet, other will already be rooted and likely dotted including necro HoT dot which will give you some breathing room, and after 2nd summons charm mezed with enslave. But tbh, its just easier to reset. Unless you're just super amazing as a chanter and/or use a ton of clickies you're going to die, and even if you're super amazing, you're still going to die, eventually! ;)

If you're looking to go exploring the dangerous places Bristlebaner, like I said, chanter is the way to go. Just bare in mind velious isnt all that great to chanters either. MR was upped on alot of mobs and mez/charm immune giants if you wanted to go deep into kael.

[Ando]

Yeah. Necro charming isn't bad, but it can be done in fewer places than Enchanter, and it is much less powerful. That said, you are much less likely to die. Each has its pros and cons.

[Tecmos Deception]

Please make a video of soloing in south on a necro! Not trying to sound like I don't believe you, I just really want to see how well you make it work since all I have experience with in there is a chanter.

[Tecmos Deception]

Does a mob that is rooted and feared still summon? I know stuff that's rooted and feared still fights, just was curious if there was a goofy interaction with summon.

[Llodd]

Now that I think about it, if you're aim is to just clear; North and west is easier on a necro. Easier in the sense of getting stuff dead faster, unless you're super unlucky and a shit ton of the mobs are live.

Pulling 5+ mobs and having that awesome manaregen to dot several down while you're pet is at work speeds things up immensely. I guess the exception here is reverse charming on 2 or 3 rooted and hasted mobs which would deffinately be easier for a chanter to control when things go tits up.

If it's just named you want, calm everything except the name/ph pull him out, rinse repeat. Necro would have to clear any live mobs out. Very boring tho.

Not sure about the rooted/fear summon thing. That would make things rather trivial. I doubt it. If I ever get round to getting my keys again could prob make a video, but no plans for that anytime soon. I've seen other necs in south, incl one from my guild. There must be others out there !

ps. the only chanters ive seen solo in south were dead ones ;)

[Tecmos Deception]

I spent soooooo much time in South and basically never anyone else soloing in there, and if there was someone else, it was invariably a chanter. Only spots ice personally seen necros soloing in HS was basement or north.

[Llodd]

Never seen anyone there either, solo at least. We are euro tho. Might have somethin to do with it

[Tecmos Deception]

Never seen anyone there either, solo at least.

I've seen other necs in south, incl one from my guild.

Wait, what? Lol.

[Llodd]

When in south i've never seen anyone there either. Whereas I've seen people in there when ive not 'physically' been in south. Dont get all nitpicky.

[Teppler]

I lived in HS North for a long time as a necro. It's one of the few cash camps necro can do better than chanter. North is a better camp than west. Now I have a pimped out shaman and it just puts everything I could do with a necro to shame.

South, I've done a few spawns in my career. For me to do it I needed the right spawn configuration where I could lull the group in the cave and single pull a named. Even with the right spawns, I remember it sometimes taking hours at times and even if you do everything right theres still a good chance you'll die. But this was back in Kunark also.

[Bristlebaner]

I think I've decided to continue on with my ench. Charm soloing is more fun than fear kiting.

[Spyder73]

Necro is great fun. I have leveled mine up to 55 or 56 doing primarily charming...you can split rooms with snare/FD and root rot to get a good break. Plus necro is just cooler than enchanter lore wise

[Raev]

I always wanted to like the necromancer class, but I just couldn't. The class is just too weak in Velious IMO. Basically you have a choice:

Gimp Enchanter. You do get lifetaps, FD, and an efficient heal over time. They don't remotely make up for charm-anything, clarity, haste, tash, slow, calm, and fast casting AE stun/AE mez for breaks.
Gimp Monk. Necros are hugely underrated here, but in the end 1.5s casting time FD/Harmshield simply aren't as good as instant FD/Stonestance, massively higher HP/AC/defensive skills, and Sneak. And you'll probably have to ditch your pet to make it happen.
Gimp Mage. Necro skeletons really are much weaker than Magician elementals (especially the ridiculous epic pet), and your best dots don't have enough time to tick in a group.

You can level quickly with charm, but at 60 you can't handle summoning mobs very well at all. Your best bet is to duo with a Shaman, but pretty much anything you can duo the Shaman can solo, just more slowly.

Now, fast foward to Luclin and things change a LOT. Death Peace means Necros get two chances to FD in under 3 seconds - great for drawing stuff out with Elder Beads. Specific immunities rather than full MR and dot stacking means that Necromancers can do massive damage on raids, and tougher content means more time for dots to tick.

[Kawhi]

I don't know much about shaman high end soloing. I am curious what they do (say in HS South) to deal with summoners? In particular, what are they doing to deal with summoners that necros can't do?

[Llodd]

I'd assume they would simply tank through the damage with torpor, but there are better places for shamans to farm $$$ gear. HS is rough, the risk v reward isnt nearly as good as other places, particulary for a shaman. Strings and FD ring would certainly make things alot easier.

[Raev]

what are they doing to deal with summoners that necros can't do?

Giving shamans a cheap, fast casting spell that reduces damage by 75% is one of the EQ design team's biggest errors. Or maybe it could work if EQ had a Diablo-style percentage resistance system (rather than full/resist randomly and players can just recast).

[Kawhi]

Ahh yeah I see. You can just slow them then deal with the damage.

Bastards!

[Tecmos Deception]

Ahh yeah I see. You can just slow them then deal with the damage.

Bastards!

Well... slow, torpor, regen buffs, much better AC and defense and dodge and hit points, more resist buffs to deal with casters, cures to deal with casters, slam to deal with casters...

Shamans are innately a lot tougher than a necro, and the spells they have GREATLY multiply the fact that they are already tougher.

[nevilshute]

I play a 60 necro here and played a chanter on live from Kunark up to and including early Dragons of Norrath.

I think it comes down to convenience vs power level. The chanter has the higher ceiling and his application is wider for the obvious reason of not being limited to undeads. The chanter also has more raw power in his immediate toolbox of mezzes, pbaoe stuns and harmonies.

But what the necro lacks in these departments he more than makes up for in terms of just sheer utility overload. With a necro you will:

-die much less frequently due to FD and Harmshield
-(nearly) always be able to afk at an instant with FD if things go poorly and you need to reset, or if someone's at the door / your baby wakes up etc.
-be able to track your corpse and summon your corpse if you die
-be able to 93 % rez yourself for a ~300pp component.

All of these things are incredibly important to soloing if you ask me.

In comparison the chanter is just incredibly fragile. The chanter has other pros in other aspects of the game such as grouping etc but that's not what you're asking here.

Probably the chanter will be able to do some specific camps the necro can't but the opposite is also true.

In terms of the examples of zones you give I only really have experience from HS where a necro is quite strong. It's also a very high-risk dungeon and so FD really shines. Chanter soloing there is also very much viable.

[Tecmos Deception]

In comparison the chanter is just incredibly fragile.

In what ways is an enchanter more fragile than a necro? Necros can lifetap and harmshield and feign. But chanters have slow, stuns, and more runes. If you think a chanter is "fragile" because they die quickly when they just stand there getting beat on without casting any spells, then you have to agree a necro is equally fragile.


Probably the chanter will be able to do some specific camps the necro can't but the opposite is also true.

Eh. A necro can probably do almost anything an enchanter can... but it is way harder to the point of being unrealistic. Chanters, on the other hand, I'm pretty sure can solo 99.99% of the spots that a necro can as well or better.


In terms of the examples of zones you give I only really have experience from HS where a necro is quite strong. It's also a very high-risk dungeon and so FD really shines. Chanter soloing there is also very much viable.

Necros are great for XPing in HS or for killing nameds in North (Teppler!)... but as I've said again and again, I always see necros talking about how necros can do south (or east)... but I've never ever seen anyone with proof of anyone actually doing it. Chanters, meanwhile? :D


I still stick with my initial assertion that enchanters are just purely more powerful while necros have more convenience when soloing. I can't even say that necros have more convenience overall though, it's just different. Chanters have illusions, non-restricted lulls, bind sight, etc. There's quite a bit that can be said about that stuff compared to corpse summon, rez, night-only evac, etc.

[Izmael]

What camp can be done by a necro but not an enc?

[Raev]

Well... slow, torpor, regen buffs, much better AC and defense and dodge and hit points, more resist buffs to deal with casters, cures to deal with casters, slam to deal with casters...

Shamans are innately a lot tougher than a necro, and the spells they have GREATLY multiply the fact that they are already tougher.

Eh, I still think Turgurs is the biggest part. The Necro can chain heal the Emissary for 125/tick, which is lot less than the Shaman (350/tick with fungi/regrowth/troll etc) but the Shaman also has to canni back 100 HP or so to keep torpor up and the Necromancer can use lifetaps to tank a bit here and there, heal the pet directly with Renew Bones, or even just resummon. 650 mana isn't cheap, but that's what Infusion is for. Plus, the Necromancer will finish targets in 5 minutes where a Shaman would need 15.

P.S. Tecmos I've seen a Necromancer handling the South cubby. IIRC it was Raato, and he said he just played like an Enchanter and FDed when Charm broke. Also I remember Necrious saying he soloed his east hat (I forget the name, haven't played in a bit!) though I think that was when VP could make you nonkos. Still, it has to be much easier as an Enchanter. And Velious has virtually no undead . . .

[Llodd]

At this point maybe it's time to just ignore you Tecmos. Because you haven't seen a necro in South or East doesn't mean necro's have never been there. For someone that is trying to repair their reputation (dont care?), casting doubt like this isn't the brightest thing to do.

Raato did it with pet tools, -mr gear, slow weps and cha gear for lulls. I did it with nothing and it was rougher and more deadly for sure, but still possible. The fact that you never saw him there (he was there for ages) or anyone else should lead you to think that it might even be possible several others were too.

[Llodd]

What camp can be done by a necro but not an enc?

Interesting question. Not sure, but if there is one then it would atleast have to be a camp with no charmable mobs available.

[Tecmos Deception]

At this point maybe it's time to just ignore you Tecmos. Because you haven't seen a necro in South or East doesn't mean necro's have never been there. For someone that is trying to repair their reputation (dont care?), casting doubt like this isn't the brightest thing to do.

Raato did it with pet tools, -mr gear, slow weps and cha gear for lulls. I did it with nothing and it was rougher and more deadly for sure, but still possible. The fact that you never saw him there (he was there for ages) or anyone else should lead you to think that it might even be possible several others were too.

I kinda take it as a compliment to be called a doubting Thomas, actually. And as far as my reputation? Well, I would have done a few things differently over my time on p99 if I were too terribly concerned with it :)

[Raev]

At this point maybe it's time to just ignore you Tecmos. Because you haven't seen a necro in South or East doesn't mean necro's have never been there. For someone that is trying to repair their reputation (dont care?), casting doubt like this isn't the brightest thing to do.

Raato did it with pet tools, -mr gear, slow weps and cha gear for lulls. I did it with nothing and it was rougher and more deadly for sure, but still possible. The fact that you never saw him there (he was there for ages) or anyone else should lead you to think that it might even be possible several others were too.

Well let's not forget that in the 1-2 years since he sold Tecmos there have been quite a few changes that helped Necromancers: increased NPC DA/DW checks and decreased cooldown made it possible for the charmed pet to win a fight in a short amount of time, getting items back from pets makes -MR gear more feasible, and Haynar changed the charm code again to make early breaks much less likely. And there are quite some enchanters who farmed that area solo, while only a few Necromancers.

[Tecmos Deception]

I don't doubt that necros can and have done south and east. I've just been repeating that for all the people who post here to say it happens, this is the first time I've seen specific names and I've still never seen a log or screenshot or video to get a better idea of how well it works.

A few people have solod emp but no one goes around posting like it happens fairly often just because 3-4 people have done it in p99's history.

[wwoneo]

Honestly, I'm with Tecmos on this one. I doubt that a necro could do this effectively without repeated deaths and a lot of CRs. It might be doable, but not in any efficient manner. -Brainfreeze level 60 enchanter.

[Tecmos Deception]

Honestly, I'm with Tecmos on this one. I doubt that a necro could do this effectively without repeated deaths and a lot of CRs. It might be doable, but not in any efficient manner. -Brainfreeze level 60 enchanter.

I do feel like it was doable since Kunark release, really. I posted to that effect back during Kunark. It was just that for all the times I've seen people say stuff like "necros are good at fighting undead so they must be strong in HS" or "yeah dude, necros kill nameds in south and east" over the past 3+ years... I'd never seen anyone give a name (let alone screenshots, logs, or videos) until this thread.

[Llodd]

Well let's not forget that in the 1-2 years since he sold Tecmos there have been quite a few changes that helped Necromancers: increased NPC DA/DW checks and decreased cooldown made it possible for the charmed pet to win a fight in a short amount of time, getting items back from pets makes -MR gear more feasible, and Haynar changed the charm code again to make early breaks much less likely. And there are quite some enchanters who farmed that area solo, while only a few Necromancers.

I think one of the reasons why is peolple don't tend to roll necros with the thought of taking on crazy hard content solo, they go straight to Chanter the king of cc/charm or even shaman (something that the solo thread backs up). Most people that roll necros are looking for easy farm mode.

[Llodd]

I don't doubt that necros can and have done south and east. I've just been repeating that for all the people who post here to say it happens, this is the first time I've seen specific names and I've still never seen a log or screenshot or video to get a better idea of how well it works.


Who are all these people that post here that necros do south and east? As far as I have seen it's only been me (and Teppler in this thread) and I've been here a looong time. Having said that my memory isn't the best.

I freely admit that chanters are better at it in the sense of efficiency, but in the sense of survivability I'd say Necros have the upperhand, so long as they play the charm game with that as their main tactic. Which one classifies it as easiest ? That's rather subjective, but in my mind the latter.

ps From my experience the only chanters I've seen in south and East have been dead ones. What am I to conclude from that! ;)

[Tecmos Deception]

My mention of necros talking about doing hs refers to posts I've seen over years. I don't remember forum names.

As far as seeing only dead chanters in South/east? Just look at he SAC thread. Or this thread where I checked logs for my named kills (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1082450&postcount=40) maybe. I think it's about to the point of common knowledge among most people on p99 that chanters can solo spots like this, and that's because like a score of chanters or more have farmed in there over the last few years.

If necros are doing it, it's only a tiny fraction as often, and it was never discussed on the forums in any detail. And it's not for a lack of invitation. God knows I've posted in SAC thread and elsewhere asking for a necro to do south and stream it or do the SAC kills or whatever.

[Llodd]

Yeah I feel I've answered this already in reply to Raev.

edit: perhaps there is something to be said for the type of person that rolls enchanter

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah I feel I've answered this already in reply to Raev.

edit: perhaps there is something to be said for the type of person that rolls enchanter

I'd love, love, love to see a necro do some videos showing what the class is capable of in the right hands. I've been saying that for years, haha :)

I actually played a necro during p99 classic and had a blast soloing back then in lguk, though a lot of mechanics were waaaaaay different back then. You could feign while still having a charmed pet, necro lull was better, you could LOS NPC spell casts, etc. But I guess you also didn't have clickies resetting gems and at least I, personally, didn't know about stuff like root nets or the WC cap or whatnot. My soloing experienced was limited to fear kiting to level up and then charming to solo frenzy, archmage, and ghoul lord. I tried to level a necro more recently but petered out when I hit the 50s before I tried doing any fancy solo stuff.

Somehow my necromancer is still accessible to me though. I tried to convince myself to play him instead of a new enchanter a couple months ago, but I couldn't resist the call of the enchanter.

[Teppler]

Honestly, I'm with Tecmos on this one. I doubt that a necro could do this effectively without repeated deaths and a lot of CRs. It might be doable, but not in any efficient manner. -Brainfreeze level 60 enchanter.

I don't think anyone is doubting this.

I think some people are wondering if it is possible at all.

[Teppler]

There's absolutely no question about it. Chanters handle South much better than Necro's and it's not worth it to camp South as a Necro, period. It's just a notch to have under your belt to have conquered a named spawn in South. Does anyone contest this?

I am a believer that Necro's do North better than Chanters. But that's a pretty low level camp in the grand scheme of the game.

[Teppler]

Also, I remember spending time exploring East back in Kunark but I could never find a spot to even find an opening as a Necro. I'm curious about what that guy did to solo stuff in east.