Curious why is paladin's the least played class?

[Shift]

I feel we are the most hated out of all classes to be played.

I don't see why people would not give a paladin a chance.

1. We can heal ourselves
2. We can tank
3. We can hold aggro by snapping FoL or rotating stuns.
4. We are a pretty versatile can handle ourselves against undeads, also not to shabby against normal mobs.

What is your opinion on why paladins are not played or why you play a paladin.

But I would say our class is pretty needy, gear dependent.

[nectarprime]

they are the cuck class

[Shift]

Min maxers

also the hybrid penalty before it was removed

On live there was WAY more paladins than here. I played one, loved it.

nice well i finally got my main Kishift to lvl 60 paladin but i think i made the mistake of going human paladin back in april 1st 2010 , right out of the box,

I feel paladin's are the black sheep of EQ lol.

[Jauna]

I don't see why people would not give a paladin a chance.

The hybrid penalty being around for like 5 years
No real discs, believe me when you go Defensive Disc its hard going back. Also Precision Disc is baller for dps
Your skills are still bugged if I remember right, meaning you still have less defense/dodge/parry/riposte
most of your buffs are outclassed from a cleric, only need one divine strengther per raid

I went Dwarf War with starting stats into DEX and just could not go back to being a knight, and I played a Paladin on Live until Underfoot xpac

[azeth]

jack of all, master of none

not the best healer
not the best tank
not the best dps
not the best buffs

etc...

[Danth]

Tank classes aren't very popular across the board. Shadow Knights are only marginally more popular than Paladins--still typically about third or fourth from the bottom--and even Warriors are mid-range at best. Paladins are at their best tanking for normal groups. That's their specialty. They're lousy solo, not spectacular as a duo class, and not hugely important in high-end raids. As it so happens most folks on P1999 pick their class with those latter concerns in mind. In so many words, Paladins are unpopular because they're great at a job most folks don't care too much about.

Response for Azeth: Paladins aren't an all-around class. Druids are an all-around class and consistently the most popular class online at any given time of day, year after year. Paladins are heavily specialized towards the group tank job and not great at much else.

Danth

[Thulack]

jack of all, master of none

not the best healer
not the best tank
not the best dps
not the best buffs

etc...

[Danth]

Oh, and don't get down on yourself Kshift. Your paladin is a pretty useful character for a person in your specific position in an up-and-coming guild. The class acts as an adequate tank for lower-end raids, it can rez people, and it brings a buff no other class brings (divine strength).

Danth

[joppykid]

I played one on Live. Had blast and I know Ill get some shit for this but the Slay Undead AA's were awesome. I would hit for 14k with a fabled tantor's tusk.

[yorumi]

It wouldn't even call it min/maxers paladins are just so far outclassed by anyone else. Try playing a warrior for a bit and you'll cry at how much more powerful the warrior is. Dual wield, triple attack, better accuracy, defensive, crits/crips, more hp/defense, etc. Heck unless I missed a clicky somewhere paladin is the only class that can't invis without using charges. Speaking of procs/clickies warrior gets all kinds of things like fear, snare, heal, invis, lifetap and more.

Even SK, while still suffering from knight problems has it better. Fear, snare, tap, feign death, invis, tap proc, ac tap, racial bonuses.

I play and enjoy a paladin but it's pretty obvious why it's not a popular class.

[Erati]

I have a 60 Druid/Clr/Paly/Rogue/Wiz (yikes)

When parking out for raids, I typically park the Cleric/Rogue/Wiz and even when theres a zillion mobs in window- I just can never find a real good use of where to park poor Eratou.

so now he lives in Karnor's Castle - ready to assist with tanking the newly 3 day VS in a jiffy - except - with no Evasive disc, VS procs on him way too much to tank it without a good supporting raid and my wizard is actually way better class to assist on a VS kill anyway!

Poor guy - he used to dominate in Howling Stones/Sebilis Crypt. Duoing the Hierophant with my shaman friends was some of the best P99ing I have gotten to experience, great mix of dangers and rewards.

Don't get me wrong Paladins are still great though, I love mine and will keep gearing him out. I just find it hard to select him over my other choices. Being a lvl 60 tank with the ability to res is very clutch and Velious offers so much new 'group' content that a Paladin/Shaman can pretty much take on most of Velious on their own whether it be Sirens Grotto or Western Waste Dragons.

Paladins sadly get crushed trying to Rampage tank high end raid mobs like Vindi and even in Halls of Testing you have to have a CH chain running on them to perform their duties.

[mr_jon3s]

Like most sub par classes in this game they didn't get better till AA's and focuses.

[Muggens]

Gotta relroll into Warrior if you want to be Main Tank in your guild

[maskedmelon]

The sad truth is that a great paladin can make a shitty group as well as an excellent group ok. That does not speak well of Paladins and is one source of player aversion. That makes it difficult to get groups and feelings of inadequacy when you group with monks.

[Shift]

So human paladin was not a wrong move, we cannot get the best armor for a paladin for the fact humans did not get the special armor like Elfs and Dwarfs.

[Superranger]

human best race for wichever class can be human

Races are irrelevant and min maxing is for sad sad people

[Jauna]

Not.. sure what elves get that makes them super amazing yaycakes oh gosh yes im glad i did this type character.. but you still lack discs and damage as a paladin.

I cant remember the last time I seen a dwarf paladin at end game

[Glasken]

I feel we are the most hated out of all classes to be played.

I don't see why people would not give a paladin a chance.

1. We can heal ourselves
2. We can tank
3. We can hold aggro by snapping FoL or rotating stuns.
4. We are a pretty versatile can handle ourselves against undeads, also not to shabby against normal mobs.

What is your opinion on why paladins are not played or why you play a paladin.

But I would say our class is pretty needy, gear dependent.


All of these elements make me prefer a paladin to any other "tank" class when in a full group as an enchanter or cleric. Solid exp group tank.

That being said, they are masters of nothing. In a small group or raid situation, there are much better alternatives.

[Ivory]

They can't be gnomes :(

[Maschenny]

They can't be gnomes :(

Dont you mean cause they cant use bows? You've changed man. :(

[Nixtar]

Paladins are made to group. Most people prefer twinking the shit out of their character and sail through the levels. In this regard there is no competition, SKs have way more utility and tools to survive alone. It is also much easier to navigate the world(invis, FD) as a SK.

In terms of the group tank though, Paladins are better than SKs. When things get messy, the Paladin heals, roots, and locks down mobs while a SK helplessly watches people die and FDs and lies in wait for the rest to come back. As for pulling, if you got a decent amount of charisma you can pull with about the same(or greater) chance of success as a SKs FD pulling.

Oh, and most people rather be the dark brooding anime villain than the shiny hero.

[fadetree]

As a Ranger, I can relate. I really like having a knight group tank, though, and Paladins maybe a bit more than SK's. I am not too fond of Wars for grind tanks.

[khandman]

Half-elf Paladin here.

So far so good :)

[Shift]

thanks all to whom responded and left some opinions and knowledge on the table.

I definitely aware of paladins are the best tank for grouping, but

what about raids I don't see many paladins tanking raid bosses or end game content it's always warriors ;(

[Tasslehofp99]

what about raids I don't see many paladins tanking raid bosses or end game content it's always warriors ;(


This is because Paladins simply don't have the HP/AC that warriors have, nor the discipline abilities warriors get. The raid bosses at end game hit way too hard for a paladin.

My guild recently had the best geared paladin on the server (atleast I think?) attempt to tank Vulak'aerr in ToV. He literally couldn't survive more than one or two rounds of melee.

[Shift]

This is because Paladins simply don't have the HP/AC that warriors have, nor the discipline abilities warriors get. The raid bosses at end game hit way too hard for a paladin.

My guild recently had the best geared paladin on the server (atleast I think?) attempt to tank Vulak'aerr in ToV. He literally couldn't survive more than one or two rounds of melee.

Oh man that's sucks ;( so it's pretty much my paladin is a good off tank for raids. They are good to group with maybe i need to rethink on my main character then?

so it narrows it down to my warrior armorsmith or my monk kheen.

[tizznyres]

What I find ironic and comical is that during beta, and on very early live EQ, Paladins were wholly considered to be the "OP" class by many, for reasons you named and several others.

It is no secret that Paladins were confirmed to have an "epic" flaming sword from very, very early on, and despite the fact that the original "epic" version of quest was never completed, it still gave most players the image that Paladins were given an unfair advantage.

Back then, nobody (or very very few people) knew about hybrid penalties, and before extreme min-maxing and years of gear farming / raid experience, players actually VALUED the perks that Paladins offer.

Of course, on P99 with a large playerbase of min-maxers and raiders, most of which have had literal years to practice and gear up, it's pretty apparent why they aren't popular -- at least in Kunark / Velious era. I didn't get much chance to play P99 pre-Kunark, but pre-Fungi Paladins would also be much more appealing for new players, especially roleplayers / soloers.

[Danth]

Oh man that's sucks ;( so it's pretty much my paladin is a good off tank for raids. They are good to group with maybe i need to rethink on my main character then?

Paladins can and do main tank lower-end raids perfectly fine. This includes the clears of Fear, Hate, most of Growth, most of Sky, Kael arena, and all the other things lower-end guilds tend to do. It's at the middle tier where the hybrids start to run into problems: hybrids are so-so for Halls of Testing trash, and aren't going to be used for progression Derakor the Vindicator kills or things like that. Moving on, hybrids have little place or purpose at the high end. It wouldn't hurt to level your Monk or Warrior so you have them if you eventually need them, but for where your guild is today your Paladin should serve well.

I have two 50+ characters on P1999, one of which is 60. That's my namesake Paladin (now 54) and my Shadow Knight (60). Both characters satisfactorily perform the jobs I ask of them, and I'm not inclined to make anything else. I do not consider either of them "useless," however as a player I have zero interest in the high-end portion of the game. Rather, I happen to most enjoy the parts of the game where hybrids fare well.

In response to the person who compared Paladin popularity to that of Shadow Knights: Again, the SK is itself a rather unpopular class. Indeed, the populations of all three hybrid types (Paladin, Ranger, Shadow Knight) combined sometimes falls short of that of some of the individual most-played classes..

Danth

[Danth]

As an additional note, Paladins specifically do encounter a few unique problems during the Velious era, partly explaining their relative lack of popularity even versus other hybrids as well as why I switched classes some years back. Paladins pull with the Lull spell line, and as tanks much of their utility stems from their root spells (Enstill, mainly) and stun spells. Problem is, at very high levels in Velious none of those spells work very well (due to high resist rates) or at all (many Giants and all level 55+ creatures are outright stun immune). Paladins, while capable of acting as tanks for such content, are more suited to lower-level stuff than those sorts of areas. On top of that there's not much undead in Velious either, largely depriving Paladins of their modest utility in that area. There are quite a few areas in Velious where Paladins do well, but as a whole the expansion sort of plays away from the class's strengths.

Danth

[Raev]

Paladins don't get Defensive Discipline, which cuts the damage interval of a NPC in half. This reduces not only the raw amount of damage but also its variance, making it perfect for complete heal chains that must be timed to the worst case.

Because I am a massive nerd, I wrote a little tank simulator that picks the longest CH chain timing that gives a <1% chance of dying. Using parsed values for Derakor's max hit rate, attacks per round, etc, it recommends a 7s chain while Defensive and a 3s chain in Paladin mode. This means that a warrior requires less than half as many clerics! Add in the ability to pick a large race that caps stamina easily, the warrior class bonuses for HP and defensive skills, and the increased HP/AC on HOT armor and this might stretch to one third as many clerics.

[Kodim]

Paladins with enough clerics can tank a lot of slowable dragons in ToV. Also had one tank Vindicator.

It's not preferred, but slow turns dragons into retards.

[douglas1999]

Play what you want and have fun as long as it's not a paladin.

[Alanus]

I played paladin on live.

In exp groups, I was either MT or crowd control. I could draw aggro well and take a beating, so I could easily root mobs away from the group (and keep myself healed), and I could also hold aggro well enough and take a beating enough to be a MT.

However, paladins really were terrible until celestial cleansing came out. After Luclin, we were awesome with slay undead. After PoP came out, I was soloing Kunark dragons (fearless AA + PoP gear) and Venril Sathir (slay undead + that PoWater weapon with insane dmg would kill him with a double proc). I soloed Rhag cycle in Ssra pretty early, too, but I think that was Omens of War expansion.

It was harder on live than on here, too, since the real good weapons (Baton of Faith) were like 40k on live. Here they are like 100pp or less.

[Spyder73]

Best tank while leveling up is a twinked Bard (until about level 40-45). Always kind of wanted to play a pally - but they are just not very good end game on P99, thats the real reason why they are quasi shunned. Literally have almost no role in end game content. So you put in 500 hours to level to 60 and realize you have no spot.../WRISTS!

[azeth]

Best tank while leveling up is a twinked Bard (until about level 40-45). Always kind of wanted to play a pally - but they are just not very good end game on P99, thats the real reason why they are quasi shunned. Literally have almost no role in end game content. So you put in 500 hours to level to 60 and realize you have no spot.../WRISTS!

Twinked bard to tank? Go on

[Trelaboon]

Mostly because after level 60, they really become sort of worthless. They're damage is terrible, they can't tank high end mobs, or even mid range mobs for that matter. They basically just spot heal and do awful DPS....LoH can be nice in a pinch. Warrior is the opposite...pre-60 they're really not ideal, but after 60, your world really starts to open

[Atmas]

This is because Paladins simply don't have the HP/AC that warriors have, nor the discipline abilities warriors get. The raid bosses at end game hit way too hard for a paladin.

My guild recently had the best geared paladin on the server (atleast I think?) attempt to tank Vulak'aerr in ToV. He literally couldn't survive more than one or two rounds of melee.

I don't think there is any Paly as geared as I am on the blue server (I think Pint was close for a while, not sure if he still plays that toon), and I would most likely eat it really quick from Vulak.

My two cents:
(Disclaimer: I think Palies are cool, both in the gameplay sense and lore so I have some bias.

I've been playing a Paly for a while leveled it up pre-velious. Put in enough work and been lucky enough to a point where if I have best buffs and the random defense skill gods smile on me I can have 5900+ hpts,1540ish AC, and 3200 mana . The AC is actually higher than the high majority of warriors on this server.)

Honestly I could write a book about this subject because there is enough info and anecdotes but I will try (and fail to be concise)

Outside of raids:
Paladins are phenomenal group tanks because they have awesome utility. The provide great snap agro and cc that minimizes damage to non-tanks. Additionally they can heal, rez, lull pull, DA, stun like mad, etc.. They can't FD pull, but you are never going to have a tank that is going to be able to heal others in danger in a clutch situation.

In soloing situations they aren't great unless you have awesome gear. In duoing situations with certain classes they are pretty effective (enchanter/sham/bard) but also still suffer from poor dps.

What I do at raids:
Tanking: Paladins lack the defensive disc that warriors have so they generally are not main tank for serious end game unless shit goes wrong. I've tanked some NToV dragons and a lot of raid trash from Sleeepers Tomb to NToV but could never tank Tunare or AoW. In some situations I rampage tank but usually preferable to have a warrior handle it. Mobs on this server hit hard consistently so a hybrid tank is usually not viable for the hardest hitting mobs. I do tank a lot though because of content like minis, trash, and the random shit that happens. I also save a lot of asses when pets break because I snap agro and heal.

Healing: I actually do this a lot during raids. I obviously don't have cheal or torpor and that sets me behind Clerics and Shamans but Paladin healing can be on par (or above or below) with Druid healing because I have a HoT that is very mana efficient. Druids tend to have higher mana pools and sit more though. I also have a group heal (which is a lot of agro but can be a benefit when used effectively)

In actual raid situations clerics are just healing main tanks so I might be solo/helping to keep dps up. Or save the day with an LH.

Buffing: I have one buff that no other class casts so I cast a lot. It's not huge but it helps and if no Palies are around you are SoL. I actually checked once and I casted it about 2000 times in a month. I also have other less effective versions of clerics buffs which I do get asked to cast to save some cleric mana (I can add 975 hpts in buffs, making me the highest hpt self buffed player :). I also help out with cures sometimes, though Shamans are generally better for that. (I have a clicky shield too ;P). I guess doing emergency and battle rezzes falls under here? Also I can cast single MR.

DPS: Paladin dps sucks, pretty freaking bad. I guess mine is a little better than total suck because I have a primal and high end weapons but it still sucks when I am comparing it to high end geared rogues/monks/warriors going for dps. But hey, I still do dps some other classes can't do shit and become near useless in an additive perspective.

The real upshot/why Paladins are awesome: I do all this shit all the time! The classic saying is Palies are good at some things not the best at anything but that is only a half truth because sometimes being the best at somethings means being able to do two things where some other classes can only do one thing really well. On a typical raid it's not unusual for me to buff 20-30 people, do damage to the mob while I heal some rogues to keep them dpsing, LH someone to keep them from eating it in low hpt agro, patch the last tank when defensive goes down, pickup an add or loose mob. So basically I get to do a little of a lot and juggle it.

Also I benefit from almost every stat in some way or another so most upgrades are gains in multiple facets :)


TL;DR Paladins aren't popular because most people think like min/maxers. The class has so much utility though that it's always nice to have around and in certain situations is awesome.

[Erati]

Confirmed, Opmeter is indeed OP.

[Sage Truthbearer]

Paladins are the best tanks for experience groups.

It's not even a question. They bring so much to the table that make your group more efficient and save people's asses in emergency situations.

• Regular pulls: A Paladin's snap aggro lets everyone play loose with their aggro management. Shaman slows early, Wizard nukes hard, Bard can snare, Rogue doesn't get hit.
• When the Enchanter's charmed, hasted pet breaks: Paladin stuns the mob, roots, patch heals Enchanter or lay hands to save his ass.
• Bad pull or train: Paladin has a group heal that is a gigantic AE spell that will peel 5+ mobs onto him instantly. Can root park mobs as well.
• Partial group wipe: Paladin has a 90% rez, this is huge if knee deep in a place like HS and your Cleric goes down.
• Spell casting mobs: Paladin has multiple stuns, each on different cooldowns, to interrupt things like ice cometing frogloks in seb.

[snergle]

• When the Enchanter's charmed, hasted pet breaks: Paladin stuns the mob, roots, patch heals Enchanter or lay hands to save his ass.

• Partial group wipe: Paladin has a 90% rez, this is huge if knee deep in a place like HS and your Cleric goes down.


As an enc I agree with everything you said but these two. You dont get an exp rezz until 59. The second is if you root my pet after the stun you assume im bad and if im not bad you just cut the groups dps in half until it wears off. That said please stun the fuck out of the pet so i can lvl 4 mezz then recharm.

[Vandil]

EQ Pallys don't have a bubble and a hearthstone.

[Doctor Jeff]

TL;DR most of the thread,

Please see this bug report. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217093)

[port9001]

Soloability vs. desirability in a group is a big factor. A group only needs one tank and adding a second provides very little benefit unless that tank can contribute good damage (like Warriors and Monks can).

So if you're playing a Paladin and the group is full it'd be nice if you could solo a bit while you wait but Paladins are slow and boring solo. It's certainly possible but it gets difficult as you rise in levels since you're essentially allowing an unslowed mob to beat the crap out of you and then healing up afterwards. You never really take control of the fight with slows like a Shaman or charms like an Enchanter. You just go toe to toe or maybe do root jousting at most. You win by attrition and then slowly heal yourself back to full before starting again. Not as bad solo as say a Warrior or a Rogue but not even close to what a Necro, Chanter, Shaman, Druid, etc. can do.

This combination of very specific group role that is often filled and lack of enjoyable solo experience is what I think makes Paladin (and to a lesser extent Rangers and Shadowknights) very unpopular.

[Atmas]

As an enc I agree with everything you said but these two. You dont get an exp rezz until 59. The second is if you root my pet after the stun you assume im bad and if im not bad you just cut the groups dps in half until it wears off. That said please stun the fuck out of the pet so i can lvl 4 mezz then recharm.

Yeah, I generally wouldn't root a pet, a stun and a taunt usually peels mobs/gives enchanters time to handle the situation.

As far as the rez goes though I use it a fair amount. Obviously no where near as much as a clicker does rezzes but if the discussion was about raid level Paladins it should be included. The difference between 90% and 96% of that 10% in most cases is so minuscule it rarely matters. I sometimes end up doing a few rezzes during raids when clerics are all stuck in rotations. Or sometimes after a raid when all the clerics left a spot, as will happen sometimes in fear or some other zone.

Also I wander around a lot sometimes and the 90% rez is pretty sweet. It's great because people in random zones think its awesome to get a rez but no one thinks to send me tells half way across Norrath asking for rezzes. I'm a "hero" with my rezzes and the frequency makes it feel more like a fun novelty than a hassle.

[Sage Truthbearer]

As an enc I agree with everything you said but these two. You dont get an exp rezz until 59. The second is if you root my pet after the stun you assume im bad and if im not bad you just cut the groups dps in half until it wears off. That said please stun the fuck out of the pet so i can lvl 4 mezz then recharm.

You're right, and I will usually stun and peel then let tank until the chanter reapplies mez. Root is still nice to have as an option if a charm breaks at an inopportune moment and things get hairy. It is a huge asset to groups to have a tank class that has castable root.

[Vexenu]

A good Paladin tank has a similar effect on a group to that of a good Bard: everything just runs much more smoothly and safely. From a group tanking perspective, they are honestly borderline overpowered compared to SKs and Warriors. In that limited niche, they are godlike in their power. A Paladin tank really shines while dungeon leveling through the 40s and 50s. It's unfortunate that most people have never experienced what the class is capable of in skilled hands. It's akin to the difference between a very skilled Enchanter who can balance charming, slowing, buffing and mezzing without a hitch and one who just sits around tossing out Clarity. Paladins have so much potential that goes unrecognized. They deserve more dedicated and skilled players to main the class.

[Zekayy]

Haters gonna hate but fact is Pint is a pally and Tanked Gozzrem a ToV dragon just fine You're Welcome

[Erati]

Haters gonna hate but fact is Pint is a pally and Tanked Gozzrem a ToV dragon just fine You're Welcome

And you cant slow that one! Go Pint!

[Brut]

Pally threads just like ranjur threads. Can defend em and write novels about their skills all you like, by the end of the day it's still a gimped warrior/cleric. Class has no role that other classes don't do way better.

Until AAs hybrids are just bad.

[Dulu]

We have no active Paladins or Rangers in our guild on red, and we're clearing raid content. Paladin/Ranger gear rots 99% of the time unless someone swaps to a level 47 alt to grab it.

Sad. If someone really wants to play a Pally on p99, they should roll it on red.

[Axlrose]

If you're having fun playing a combination of class and race that is not the norm, then does it really matter in the end...?

[Erati]

I acquired more Paladin gear today and I am pretty excited about it

cant wait to play around with it next week if I find a chance to log him in lol

[snergle]

Yeah, I generally wouldn't root a pet, a stun and a taunt usually peels mobs/gives enchanters time to handle the situation.

As far as the rez goes though I use it a fair amount. Obviously no where near as much as a clicker does rezzes but if the discussion was about raid level Paladins it should be included. The difference between 90% and 96% of that 10% in most cases is so minuscule it rarely matters. I sometimes end up doing a few rezzes during raids when clerics are all stuck in rotations. Or sometimes after a raid when all the clerics left a spot, as will happen sometimes in fear or some other zone.

Also I wander around a lot sometimes and the 90% rez is pretty sweet. It's great because people in random zones think its awesome to get a rez but no one thinks to send me tells half way across Norrath asking for rezzes. I'm a "hero" with my rezzes and the frequency makes it feel more like a fun novelty than a hassle.

im not knocking the 90% rezz its nice to have but saying its a plus for making them the best xp tank it shouldnt be considered

[Tewaz]

Pally is super fun on Red.

[COLGATETHEGRANDMASTER]

paladins are the 2nd worst PvE class in the game, that's why no one plays them

[Dulu]

speak of pvp ... how is the distribution on red?

Paladins are strong in PvP -- and very desired in PVE right now.

Most Paladin gear rots on red, sadly.

[Nixtar]

im not knocking the 90% rezz its nice to have but saying its a plus for making them the best xp tank it shouldnt be considered

It is quite common for dungeons to have see invis, a mix of undead and living mobs, and other ways to making it tricky to reach a group upon a death. Depending upon who drops the group's progress can grind to a complete halt or worse break up as suddenly everyone has to run that special errand(which always seem to coincide whenever a challenge/obstacle appears).

In addition to all the other toys(roots, stuns, heals, buffs and LoH) this makes a Paladin a very good, if not the best, choice for any exp group. When sufficiently geared the Paladin can also take on raid targets(as evident by Zekay's post).

The greatest challenge a Paladin faces when leveling up is the class difficulties when it comes to soloing. Very few spells the Paladin gets actually does damage(none of which are very mana efficient or pose other restrictions). For this the class feels weak. Also, being mr good guy is not as cool as the SK.

In short, a Paladin makes everyone else's lives easier. It won't show in parses though so this obviously means the Paladins never do anything useful(not saying you claim this but there certainly are certain cretins in this thread who seem to believe this).

[port9001]

I really enjoy my Paladin when I can get in a 3+ sized group tanking difficult mobs. Great mitigation, can help with CC, holding aggro is easy mode, spot heals to take some pressure off healers & make odd groups work.

I really don't enjoy my Paladin when I log in and all the group spots already have a tank. I don't deal much damage so I can't contribute much besides the CC and (usually unnecessary) off tanking. I can solo but it's slow and boring. I'd rather play another character than sit around LFG or faced with a horribly slow solo session.

Paladin is an awesome group tank but there's where the awesomeness ends. Solo - slow, lack of utility to get around or camp interesting places; raids - unneeded, only tanks for novelty reasons; duo - so many better options mostly because Pally has low damage.

Of course this is ignoring the most important aspect of any character: fashionquest. Paladins are top contenders with sexy plate armor and flaming swords. A Paladin in full plate just looks damn good, even the Dwarves.

[Atmas]

This thread has a lot of Paladins aren't the best at anything outside of group tank so they are worthless. The argument really doesn't hold water that if a class isn't the best at something they can't contribute. So at a raid no one besides rogues should dps and no one besides clerics should heal? I won't say the class is essential but in all honesty if everyone in your raid was just warriors and clerics you could do almost all the content.

At every raid there is tanking/buffing/healing/dpsing/cc a good Paladin will probably do 3-5 of these tasks to some or a major extent at every raid.

There are a lot of classes you don't need, your raid is just a lot better off for having them. This thread kind of lacks out of the box thinking, or even in the box thinking.

[yorumi]

This thread has a lot of Paladins aren't the best at anything outside of group tank so they are worthless. The argument really doesn't hold water that if a class isn't the best at something they can't contribute. So at a raid no one besides rogues should dps and no one besides clerics should heal? I won't say the class is essential but in all honesty if everyone in your raid was just warriors and clerics you could do almost all the content.

At every raid there is tanking/buffing/healing/dpsing/cc a good Paladin will probably do 3-5 of these tasks to some or a major extent at every raid.

There are a lot of classes you don't need, your raid is just a lot better off for having them. This thread kind of lacks out of the box thinking, or even in the box thinking.

You and a lot of others keep bringing up the min/max point but it really doesn't apply here. We're not looking at mostly insignificant difference in output here. You would be shocked at just how much dps a warrior is outputting while tanking, and going the berserk route is downright terrifying. Warrior is doing this all while also having better mitigation. If that wasn't bad enough they also get both offensive and defensive disciplines that paladin has absolutely no answer to.

When you watch the two classes performing side by side you quickly realize just how poor a performance the paladin shows. It's not a matter of extreme min/maxing paladin really is that much worse.

[Atmas]

You and a lot of others keep bringing up the min/max point but it really doesn't apply here. We're not looking at mostly insignificant difference in output here. You would be shocked at just how much dps a warrior is outputting while tanking, and going the berserk route is downright terrifying. Warrior is doing this all while also having better mitigation. If that wasn't bad enough they also get both offensive and defensive disciplines that paladin has absolutely no answer to.

When you watch the two classes performing side by side you quickly realize just how poor a performance the paladin shows. It's not a matter of extreme min/maxing paladin really is that much worse.

Yes a Paladin is well out shined by warrior in those regards. Probably nobody knows that better than I do. However, that's kind of expected, if it was insignificantly close why would anyone even play a warrior? An all regards equal tank/dpser who could buff and heal would be way superior. As it is there are some encounters like doing Ring Wars and PoTG clears where if I'm tanking a mob I can keep myself up longer if no heal is incoming.

So let me flip your statement to illustrate my point. How does the warrior stack up in healing vs the paladin? When people in his group are getting aoed down? Or the current tank needs patching?

[yorumi]

So let me flip your statement to illustrate my point. How does the warrior stack up in healing vs the paladin? When people in his group are getting aoed down? Or the current tank needs patching?

The problem is those scenarios become vanishingly small and often revolve around a poorly performing group. Often times a better party composition would perform better. So it becomes more a case of making due than actually being useful. If a paladin is outputting significant healing it means his already low dps is even lower. It means overall mobs are dying much slower and perhaps that's contributing to the problem?

Similar in a raid, if a paladin is outputting significant healing you're honestly probably better off with just another healer. healers have decent nukes and landing one would probably do more dps than the entire output of the paladin.

Again it's not that a warrior is a slightly better tank and dps, a warrior is a significantly better tank, and a significantly better dps on top of that. And a paladin is about as bad of a healer as it is a tank. Sure a paladin is a better healer than a warrior but how often are you really in a situation where it's better to have a paladin healing than a tank taking significantly less damage and killing mobs much faster?

[Danth]

Warrior is doing this all while also having better mitigation..

Eh? There's no significant difference in the damage reduction between a Warrior and a Paladin unless the Warrior's using defensive or evasive discipline, which in normal groups typically doesn't happen much or at all. Any slight avoidance advantage the Warrior might have is canceled out by the Warrior taking a lot more riposte damage due to dual wielding fast weapons instead of a Paladin's typically slower single weapon. If the Warrior is taking less heals it's because the monster's beating up on somebody else. The Paladin offers the ability to chain stun which provides a sort of mitigation on demand of its own, and while not equal to /defensive, that capability shouldn't be ignored. With three stun spells and a full mana bar, a Paladin can chain-stun a target and almost completely lock it down for quite awhile, if he so chooses.

The Warrior deals more damage than the Paladin by himself, but the Paladin allows the rest of his group to deal damage quicker without the target getting loose. Warriors are the clear loser in this comparison: If you want a high-damage, low-aggro tank for your pick-up group, you might as well invite an extra Monk. Paladins make the healers lives easier by keeping damage (mostly) confined to one target, and having the extra stuns handy also helps keep the Enchanter alive when charm inevitably breaks. Paladins don't just help a bad group function tolerably, but they also help ensure a good group stays good instead of falling apart when something goes wrong.

I maintain my opinion that the Paladin's unpopular not because of any problem performing its role, but rather because its role is a role which most folks don't care too much about. That being said, not too many folks will change their minds: Those folks who know what Paladins can do don't need changing, and those who've written the class off aren't typically interested in reading anything which conflicts with their preconceived notions.

As an aside, most Paladin players loathe being relegated to tertiary healer status in raids, so I wouldn't hold that up as an advantage. The class can do it, and sometimes even do it well, but a) it's not why folks pick the Paladin at creation, and b) aside from Divine Strength, a raid would usually rather just have another cleric. Hybrids aren't big high-end raiding classes, I hope we can all agree on that much.

Danth

[yorumi]

Eh? There's no significant difference in the damage reduction between a Warrior and a Paladin unless the Warrior's using defensive or evasive discipline, which in normal groups typically doesn't happen much or at all. Any slight avoidance advantage the Warrior might have is canceled out by the Warrior taking a lot more riposte damage due to dual wielding fast weapons instead of a Paladin's typically slower single weapon. If the Warrior is taking less heals it's because the monster's beating up on somebody else. The Paladin offers the ability to chain stun which provides a sort of mitigation on demand of its own, and while not equal to /defensive, that capability shouldn't be ignored. With three stun spells and a full mana bar, a Paladin can chain-stun a target and almost completely lock it down for quite awhile, if he so chooses.

My experience from playing both is that the warrior takes less damage. Soloing the same mobs at similar gear levels the paladin ends at a far lower hp level. Some of that I'm sure is due to the difference in damage output but just watching logs you can see the warrior is overall taking less damage.

In terms of agro, while I'll agree at very low levels, or if a warrior isn't focusing on dex(doing it wrong), then the paladin has an advantage. However, I would say root is a very common spell and solves virtually all of the warrior's agro problems. In terms of the monk being a better pick, well that goes against the paladin just as much as the warrior, so largely a moot point. And as for stuns, lets not forget most of the higher end stuff in velious can't be stunned.

I like paladin honestly, I play one and enjoy it. it's just when you go an play a warrior you really quickly realize just how lacking the paladin actually is. And giving our extensive knowledge base it's not surprising a lot of people quickly figure out that unless you like the RP aspects of paladin you're better off picking pretty much anything else. Even an SK performs better as a group tank than a paladin.

[Nixtar]

And a ranger is about as bad of a healer as it is a tank.

Fixed that for you.

[Atmas]

The problem is those scenarios become vanishingly small and often revolve around a poorly performing group. Often times a better party composition would perform better. So it becomes more a case of making due than actually being useful. If a paladin is outputting significant healing it means his already low dps is even lower. It means overall mobs are dying much slower and perhaps that's contributing to the problem?

Similar in a raid, if a paladin is outputting significant healing you're honestly probably better off with just another healer. healers have decent nukes and landing one would probably do more dps than the entire output of the paladin.

Again it's not that a warrior is a slightly better tank and dps, a warrior is a significantly better tank, and a significantly better dps on top of that. And a paladin is about as bad of a healer as it is a tank. Sure a paladin is a better healer than a warrior but how often are you really in a situation where it's better to have a paladin healing than a tank taking significantly less damage and killing mobs much faster?

Actually I find these to be quite common scenarios, and this is my perspective from being in a top raiding guild Rampage -> Awakened for the entirety of Velious.

As I mentioned in another post clerics are usually just healing the MT and shamans aren't always plentiful or are busy slowing in the beginning. Palies actually have some pretty mana efficient fast cast heals in their group and HoT spells. Also, shamans can't torpor people out of group, and torpor diminishes damage output. If you are doing it right you can heal with very little detriment to your own damage (which admittedly is still not great). Paly honestly can heal about as well Druid.

Also non-wizard nukes don't land that great in a lot of cases. Further, in Velious the fights are long and melee weapons get pretty good, I don't really see non-wizard nukers out dpsing Paly. If it turns out less healing is needed other healers really won't transition to doing damage as well or do it as seamlessly.

If you have a bunch of toons laying around and non-changing conditions sure why not use them. In the end I have done a ton of end game on this server and never not had something I couldn't contribute on my Paladin.

[Danth]

My experience from playing both is that the warrior takes less damage. Soloing the same mobs at similar gear levels the paladin ends at a far lower hp level. Some of that I'm sure is due to the difference in damage output but just watching logs you can see the warrior is overall taking less damage.

Could be additional factors at play, like regen, or whatnot. Maybe the damage matters that much. The wife's experience healing both in groups is that there's no appreciable difference unless the warr's in /defensive, and likewise that's what other healer types tell me when I'm on my SK versus Warriors in equivalent gear.

Oh, and you're right that at very high levels the Paladin sort of runs into a wall with resists and such in this expansion. I agree fully; that's why I never leveled my own to 60. It's a fine class from level 10 or so into the mid 50's, but beyond that Velious tends to play away from the class's strengths. Kunark content is more paladin-friendly, I feel.

Danth

[Noselacri]

Paladins don't really excel at anything. Shadowknight holds aggro just as well and can FD-pull, do okayish DPS and provide snare. Paladin does godawful DPS, and in a good group where you're constantly fighting and chain-pulling, you can't realistically do much healing. A good group doesn't need the tank to provide healing, anyway. Also, in order to hold aggro persistently without med breaks, a paladin needs Clarity or bard mana song, so if that isn't there, it's a problem. SK aggro spells cost practically no mana. Paladin is fine for an exp group tank, but it can get annoying when the tank asks for pulls to stop so he can get back his mana. Flash of Light and stuns cost a fair bit.

[Atmas]

Paladins don't really excel at anything. Shadowknight holds aggro just as well and can FD-pull, do okayish DPS and provide snare. Paladin does godawful DPS, and in a good group where you're constantly fighting and chain-pulling, you can't realistically do much healing. A good group doesn't need the tank to provide healing, anyway. Also, in order to hold aggro persistently without med breaks, a paladin needs Clarity or bard mana song, so if that isn't there, it's a problem. SK aggro spells cost practically no mana. Paladin is fine for an exp group tank, but it can get annoying when the tank asks for pulls to stop so he can get back his mana. Flash of Light and stuns cost a fair bit.

Flash of Light is very low mana cost and the lowest lvl stun that does no damage is really the only one that should be loaded. A bard of chanter definitely helps, with one of them in a crypt group I can heal myself for the whole clear excluding Emp, some other seb camps I can heal myself even with chain pulls. However, if you are smart about it bard/chanter aren't really essential even with worse gear. Also in comparison to FD pull/snare a Paladin can lull and root/stun.

I do realize though somethings are gear dependent. We should group sometime :)

[Jaleth]

Play what you want and have fun as long as it's a paladin.


Fixed for you!

[Jimjam]

Root is the best spell in the game! That's something. Especially damage free! (levelling up, at least).