Raid windows

[JurisDictum]

As those of you that have been here awhile know, all raid targets have + or - 8 hours to their window. This means that any guild that wants raid targets on this server needs to have people willing to stare at their spawn for up to 16 hours.

To prevent guilds from "camping" raid zones for days on end, there are "first to engage" rules on raid targets. The first guild that has someone run up from the entrance and aggro the mob gets an hour to kill the target.

Racing to the mob is pretty fun. Sitting there for 15 hours and change in not. It basically disqualifies anyone but the most hardcore guilds from competing. It requires a minority of players to do the "tracking" work for the guild. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you can imagine how this breeds resentment and burnout. It also kind of creates a race to the bottom with the p99 player base.

There are three options I see:

1) Keep the status quo.

2) Lower the windows. If a dragon is only in window for 8 hours, all kinds of people can race for it. 8 Hours really isn't that much staring between several people. It will also allow a little more racing and a little less staring. If it were up to me the window would be only 4 hours, but ill settle for 8.

3) raise the windows. The hope is that if there are 48 hour windows or something crazy, people will stop tracking the dragons...this never really works on making the sever less hardcore, it just makes it more hardcore. But it is true that technically there is less insta-engaging.

Vote for the one of the 3 options if you have an opinion please. If you don't care don't vote.

[HeyNomad]

I care, but I don't know which of the options I prefer. I used to favor shorter windows but I'm not so sure any more.

Yeah, 16-hour windows are ridiculous, but seems to me cutting the window primarily benefits the people who are already getting those targets. If you don't want to track for 16 hours, don't. The people do have already demonstrated that they value the pixels more than the tracking time they put in. They're still going to be there at whatever odd hour a window happens to fall. So I don't see how narrowing the window significantly changes the distribution of loot or raid opportunities on the server.

If the raid target spawn system changes, I think it should be to expand everyone's opportunity to get those targets, not just to make the hard core folks' lives easier. That might be something like option 3, which Sirken has advocated (at least, I think this has been his position): a multi-day variance to break poop-socking entirely...except I'm also not sure that would do it. But at least if that did happen, it would be a dice throw re: who finds the target up and who can mobilize fastest.

But I think we might need something beyond just adjustments to variance to really equalize opportunity in the way I'd like. I'm sure I'm in the minority and I know it'll never happen, but I'm starting to think GM-managed rotations, a questable trigger, or even some kind of instancing system (which I used to be completely opposed to) might be preferable.

[Pokesan]

3) raise the windows. The hope is that if there are 48 hour windows or something crazy, people will stop tracking the dragons...this never really works on making the sever less hardcore, it just makes it more hardcore. But it is true that technically there is less insta-engaging.

Vote for the one of the 3 options if you have an opinion please. If you don't care don't vote.

Please provide more evidence for this outcome. From here it looks like 16 hour variance has you begging for mercy. It seems clear that longer variance would break your will to 'dominate all content', as you folks are so fond of saying.

[xKoopa]

16 hour windows that always start at a set time each week

Saturday 8am all windows open and done by sunday. Everyone gets to go on with their lives

[HeyNomad]

16 hour windows that always start at a set time each week

Saturday 8am all windows open and done by sunday. Everyone gets to go on with their lives

I've thought about something like this too. One problem, and I think Sirken has mentioned this as a concern of his, is that some players live outside the continental US. I'm sure it's a minority, but possibly a significant enough minority that staff/we need to think about them too.

[JurisDictum]

I don't think 8 hour windows have ever been tried. So I have no empirical evidence as guild (or alliance of guilds) on the cust like CSG would be able to get more targets.

All I can say is, its obviously not going to hurt. This "burn them out" strategy has never worked, and will never work. There are too many people that quit and comeback after breaks. Our FTErs are constantly refreshed by new players and returning old players. Large windows do one thing: they make addicts lives shittier.

If that's a big plus to you, all I can say is: "you mad bro?" Its pretty ironic to get all shitty and resentful for people "taking the game too seriously."

This isn't Kunark. All kinds of people can be in a raid guild. So if you want raid loot and you arent in a raid guild, it really is your fault. Its not like most of A/A dont have jobs and families.

[JurisDictum]

Please provide more evidence for this outcome. From here it looks like 16 hour variance has you begging for mercy. It seems clear that longer variance would break your will to 'dominate all content', as you folks are so fond of saying.

I, personally, don't want to camp 16 hour windows. I wouldn't mind racing and would like them to be shorter. That doesn't mean everyone in my guild feels the same, or that this helps the pixil outcome of my guild.

[Pokesan]

I don't think 8 hour windows have ever been tried. So I have no empirical evidence as guild (or alliance of guilds) on the cust like CSG would be able to get more targets.

All I can say is, its obviously not going to hurt. This "burn them out" strategy has never worked, and will never work. There are too many people that quit and comeback after breaks. Our FTErs are constantly refreshed by new players and returning old players. Large windows do one thing: they make addicts lives shittier.

If that's a big plus to you, all I can say is: "you mad bro?" Its pretty ironic to get all shitty and resentful for people "taking the game too seriously."

This isn't Kunark. All kinds of people can be in a raid guild. So if you want raid loot and you arent in a raid guild, it really is your fault. Its not like most of A/A dont have jobs and families.

you don't get to act like you're the mature adult in the room when your argument is "you mad bro?"

my good chum

[maskedmelon]

I like the scheduled window idea (weekdays 6:00pm to 11:59pm EST, weekends 6:00 EST Friday, through 11:59pm EST Sunday).

[icedwards]

16 hour variance is hot garbage, but it's in place to keep dragons from exclusively being killed on NA time.

The real solution is more repops. Bi-weekly and during the weekend. At the very least it would stop guilds from purposely spreading timers out from Monday to Saturday.

[xKoopa]

I've thought about something like this too. One problem, and I think Sirken has mentioned this as a concern of his, is that some players live outside the continental US. I'm sure it's a minority, but possibly a significant enough minority that staff/we need to think about them too.

Except it wouldn't be a problem with a 16 hour window. Yeah, some euro people might not want to be there at 8am when windows pop because its actually 8pm for them or such, but they could still catch the end of windows during their primetime

its not like the euro guilds are contesting any high end velious content anyway. cant miss what theyre not getting (i could be wrong as im not very active in game)

[JurisDictum]

There will be windows at all hours with 8 hour variance. There will be windows at all hours with 32+....the variance doesnt change much in the long run as far as raid times. Particularly if resets become a lot more rare and quakes don't reset timers.

[Nibblewitz]

Could you imagine the uprising if variance was removed from the FEMA-camp feeder troughs?

[Tasslehofp99]

We've already have 96 hour windows with a chance of extended variance. People still socked in those conditions. Variance is not classic for the most part, should be removed in my opinion. However, I also see how variance also has its benefits in a server that's so far behind the natural timeline.

[Lojik]

We've already have 96 hour windows with a chance of extended variance. People still socked in those conditions. Variance is not classic for the most part, should be removed in my opinion. However, I also see how variance also has its benefits in a server that's so far behind the natural timeline.

The socking wasn't done by nearly as many people as now. Also, mobs only had 32k hp and there were only what, 18 total raids targets in kunark old world?

With 168 hour windows everything is in window, and how many targets is that? Plus its one thing to wait for enough peeps to log on to kill trak,it's another waiting for enough for badass tov dragons.

Add in an afk autoboot feature too

[Ravager]

Put it all on an 8 hour fixed timer, adjust loot drop rates accordingly, let the neckbeards burn themselves out milling the same targets three times daily. Everyone gets to raid, leet loot is still leet. Also, remove item recharging and nerf Soulfires.

[Lojik]

Put it all on an 8 hour fixed timer, adjust loot drop rates accordingly, let the neckbeards burn themselves out milling the same targets three times daily. Everyone gets to raid, leet loot is still leet.

I'd be on board for this too.

[drktmplr12]

Add in an afk autoboot feature too

yeah stream socking is a thing. never underestimate people

[JackFlash]

Poll would be greatly legitimized with a B/T option. Just sayin'.

[Ele]

bring back 96 hour windows with anti-sock window extensions (doesn't prevent socking, just makes it more painful)

[Victorio]

If windows were enlarged significantly then tactics would just change to utilize fewer trackers at once with people taking turns on those. For example, if you had 96h windows in ToV, you'd basically just keep a ranger tracker and rogue FTE online around the clock all week.

[JurisDictum]

So what I'm hearing here is that there is zero hope that anyone other than the two raid guilds will get targets...So fuck them anyway.

That's the sentiment more or less?

You can bring a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

Short windows would allow casual guilds to race better than any of these options. I know what I'm talking about because unlike most casual guild players, I know what it takes to get an FTE. You run to the dragon after a tracker calls it. Its not something only hardcore guilds can do...unless you make the windows huge.

[Axlrose]

As a very casual player and nowhere near being a raider, how _I_ would have my fantasy online game (stuck in my head) played out with these raid bosses (dragons) would be as followed:

+/- one week _and_ +/- 24 hours so it would be quite random.

Then I would have these raid bosses not appearing on any forms of tracking. "Realistically", it is not like these dragons would be walking around leaving footprints. Thus if you want to see if something is there, then risk your way into the depth of the dungeon and look into its lair...

...and if you're fried to a crisp, then yes - the raid boss awaits.

A bit of an evil streak in me.

[JurisDictum]

As a very casual player and nowhere near being a raider, how _I_ would have my fantasy online game (stuck in my head) played out with these raid bosses (dragons) would be as followed:

+/- one week _and_ +/- 24 hours so it would be quite random.

Then I would have these raid bosses not appearing on any forms of tracking. "Realistically", it is not like these dragons would be walking around leaving footprints. Thus if you want to see if something is there, then risk your way into the depth of the dungeon and look into its lair...

...and if you're fried to a crisp, then yes - the raid boss awaits.

A bit of an evil streak in me.

How in the hell is that going to amount to you getting a dragon? This dream you have that the raid guild just wont notice a prime time dragon and the casual gets it, is just that, a dream.

[Pokesan]

Perhaps the larger window voters also prefer a different system than FTE. Kinda nulls the whole experienced raider angle you think you're speaking from

Do continue with the public self stimulation though

[JurisDictum]

We got:

1) camping for days on end

2) rotation

3) FTE

to choose from.

Rotation is basically out from what I can tell. I tried advocating rotation. The reality is that most influential players hate the idea of rotation. Casual guilds don't care enough to insist on one loudly enough to get it. If they all came together they might be able to get a rotation that would let them have dragons. My suggestion was 1 week a month for casuals. They could work out for themselves how they play.

Because rotation is out, I think small windows is the 2nd best option. But I'm all ears if someone has a better idea that doesn't totally violate classic.

Edit: there is also the Luclin alternative. But we all know that's a pipe dream.

[Pokesan]

can i get a list of influential players?

how did they become so powerful?

[JurisDictum]

First of all, they can talk in the raid forums.

[Pokesan]

Very Important Elfs

[JurisDictum]

Pokesan knows if certain elves wanted a rotation, the staff would listen to them a hell of a lot more than me.

[Pokesan]

Pokesan knows if certain elves wanted a rotation, the staff would listen to them a hell of a lot more than me.

actually i think its all in your heads and nobody else cares about your imaginary fiefdoms

[fadetree]

Rotations are a pain in the ass for the MFWICs, aint gonna happen.

[Axlrose]

How in the hell is that going to amount to you getting a dragon?

In my gaming world, slaying a dragon would be an exception, not the norm like here in Project 1999.

Which leads me into one of my annoyances with Live as it added expansions. As players, we were supposed to be some mere mortal with gifts. Enough experience and we attempt to slaughter mythical beasts (dragons). Then we gained more power and went to kick some god and goddess ass without question, without a disruption of power on the mortal planes. But then we went beyond immortal beings and knocked the teeth out of some demi-god vampire. Afterwards we went out to take out gobble-de-**** named mobs that were not worshiped but apparently were much more powerful than our initial gods and goddesses?

Perhaps I played too much second (and a touch of third) edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons where entering the immortal planes was an undertaking unto itself. And then to confront an immortal that could with a mere thought, practically destroy you...?

Just my thoughts.

[jpetrick]

I'm sure this is the thread that will finally get variance reduced.

[maskedmelon]

28min repops and adjust drops accordingly. Make guilds camp/raid the same dragon all day like the rest of be game instead of staring at a door.

[Destron]

Supply isn't near the demand. The answer is simple.

[JurisDictum]

Supply isn't near the demand. The answer is simple.

You mean increase the supply beyond what was possible in classic? That would be ok with me, but the vast majority of the server want things kept classic. 1 dragon a week.

[bspa0700]

Opinions from those not in Awakened and Aftermath are moot. They don't show up anyways.

[JurisDictum]

Opinions from those not in Awakened and Aftermath are moot. They don't show up anyways.

Sounds elitist, but it is basically true. The people voting for larger windows don't even track the current windows (at least that is the impression I get). So one side is basically talking out their ass and the other overwhelming prefers smaller windows.

[Lojik]

Is this thread gonna change anything? No, so everyone's opinion is moot and we're all talking out our ass.

[Victorio]

Sounds elitist, but it is basically true. The people voting for larger windows don't even track the current windows (at least that is the impression I get). So one side is basically talking out their ass and the other overwhelming prefers smaller windows.

Right. The people advocating larger windows are those who don't even compete in the current scene and are butthurt over not getting dragon loot. They are further split into two groups:
Group A wants larger windows to "punish" raid guilds out of spite. Misguided because tactics will simply adapt.
Group B thinks that (somehow, magically) larger windows will allow casuals to compete more when in fact it's less.

[khysanth]

If the raid scene changes, BDA wins

[Pokesan]

So the neckbeard response is "Well if you do that we'll just shit up the endgame even harder!"

I smell fear(and cheetos)

[Ravager]

If the raid scene changes, BDA wins

Typical BDA.

[JurisDictum]

So the neckbeard response is "Well if you do that we'll just shit up the endgame even harder!"

I smell fear(and cheetos)

I suppose it is impossible for you to accept that I might have come here to say "it sucks staring at walls," simply because I think it sucks staring at walls.

[Gimp]

Sounds elitist, but it is basically true. The people voting for larger windows don't even track the current windows (at least that is the impression I get). So one side is basically talking out their ass and the other overwhelming prefers smaller windows.

I still track/race mobs and I'm not in A/A. I completely support shorter windows, but it's not something the GMs will implement since it will inevitably turn into sockquest like it always does. The only real solution is more repops.