Which class when played with skill affects your group the most?

[damstraight4]

I'm curious which class(es) do you think affects your group the most when the player puts in a lot of effort, or is skilled.

For example, you can tell the difference between a great puller and a shit one. A skilled monk will keep your group alive.

Also, a great enchanter keeps the exp flowing if the pulls are up to speed.

What do you guys think?

[isoka]

Bard

[Ivory]

Necromancer....mez, mana, healing, DPS....they are really powerful and can fill in so many places to make things a breeze.

[kaev]

Bard
^^
Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!

Not only is a well-played group bard pretty damned amazing in and of itself, but it also magnifies good play by other group members. Ultimate force multiplier effect from a single character.



(Honorable mention to enchanter because multiple skilled chanters in same group gets pretty silly. 3 charming chanters + cleric + tank + rogue makes an astonishingly powerful bulldozer of dungeon destruction, with built-in recovery capability in case you have a hiccup of horrifically timed multiple charm breaks.)

[damstraight4]

Can you elaborate on what a bard does that is so great? Still learning this game, but never played a bard, and not many join groups. You know why... lol

[Jimjam]

Can you elaborate on what a bard does that is so great? Still learning this game, but never played a bard, and not many join groups. You know why... lol

Everything. Pretty much.

[Lowako]

Probably a monk. Strong DPSer, strong push to interrupt cast, can tank incredibly well, as well as proper pulling being incredibly useful. Enchanters are an honorable mention. I've personally never been super impressed by a bard while i was leveling. They usually made me wish I had an enchanter instead.

[Izmael]

Obviously situational, but overall I'd say
1. Enc
2. Bard
3. Shaman

Least influental would be rogue because well.

[Pyrion]

Can you elaborate on what a bard does that is so great? Still learning this game, but never played a bard, and not many join groups. You know why... lol

Bard can fill in every single slot in a group that is missing, to some degree. You get some pretty nice temporal buffs, the heal song, while not being able to heal fast adds up pretty good. Then there is CC (snare, fear, mez, charm). Up to some level a bard, being a plate wearer that can also slow mobs, can tank. If DPS is needed the bard will speed up all other melees while doing mediochre melee damage himself, and added on top do some dot damage or add a charmed pet to the fight. If mana is the problem the bard will play mana song.

Nice thing about bard is, you can duo with any class at all and make it work good. A lot of the bards power comes in the 20ties levels, so there maybe some frustration earlier.

[Brut]

Really good bard is absurd in a group. Recall one that split all the pulls, brought merbs in nonstop, charmed one for dps and CCd others. Prty sure we got manasong ticks all the while. Never forget mr Baboonheart best pal.

[khanable]

Bard, easily

[maskedmelon]

Depends on group, but if we are talking about the difference between when a class is played poorly and when it is played well: paldin or necromancer. Shit shaman just buff and slow and run out of mana, but remain incredibly useful. Shit bards just cc and play managing and remain incredibly useful. Shit enchanters just cast clarity, cc and complain about hasting. Shit Paladins just cast stun and are a black hole of XP. Shit necros set they pets to /guard and lifetap and are ok dps doing that.

Good necro will cc, back-up (or even primary!) heal, pump mana to casters and keep floaty on whoever wants it all while their charmed pet tears things up.

Super pally will pull singles, cc (park, prevent and control adds) shut down enemy casters, pump mana to shamans/necros (and anyone else of you have a mage ), while serving as a black hole for aggro.

There are many situations when other classes will be better, but if we're talking about the difference between when a class is poorly, or even averagely played and when it is well played (in a group), these two are night and day in that regard ^^

[mropey]

^ this guy said paladin....

[Spyder73]

A Necromancer who thinks they are a pure DPS is pretty god awful in a group, so that is definitely one – and a Enchanter who sucks at CCing or cant charm can be excruciating as well.

Everyone always says Bards Bards Bards Blah Blah Blah. You don’t have to twist 5 songs at all moments to be a good bard, it’s in fact super unnecessary and will make you hate life. Sure there is a lot of bull sh!t to keep running, but it neither makes or breaks a group since Bards skills overlap with multiple classes and typically slow and haste are the main priorities depending on group comp – maybe throw in a damage shield or click your BoH - who knows. Other than that keep mana and health pumping and you are helping the group a lot

But by far for me it’s the Puller that makes or breaks a group – a Monk who can FD split your camp and then keep the mobs coming in as they spawn is invaluable, Bards also excel at this role and in some cases are superior pullers to the Monk due to Selo’s and Lul. The main thing is having someone who leaves before the mob is dead to go grab more mobs, that’s when the XP starts flying

[Brut]

Good puller isn't necessary at all if the group has good dps and/or CC. You don't need to split the pulls if the team can handle multiple mobs at a time, in which case you can have any class just run into the next room and aggro the next 3-4 mobs.

Necro is the same as ranger, does a bunch of roles mediocre, so if your group is otherwise bad I guess the necro gets to shine. I wouldn't say it affects the group the most, it just helps if the group is otherwise terrible.

A well played bard quickly elevates a group from average to awesome. It's the best.

[Evia]

Bard.


A good bard changes the way a group will function. I can't say that about any other class.

[isoka]

Those who don't see why bard isn't the obvious answer clearly didn't get to group with a well played bard. The moment you encounter one of those very few truly amazing bards, you will know it.

A well played bard is not just about keeping 5 songs up at all time. It's how it adapts to every situation in a fluent way while providing as much benefit songs as possible. Having only 8 songs in stock and having to manage targets make it very hard to shine as a bard.

[Spyder73]

Those who don't see why bard isn't the obvious answer clearly didn't get to group with a well played bard. The moment you encounter one of those very few truly amazing bards, you will know it.

A well played bard is not just about keeping 5 songs up at all time. It's how it adapts to every situation in a fluent way while providing as much benefit songs as possible. Having only 8 songs in stock and having to manage targets make it very hard to shine as a bard.

All i will say is that there is a reason Bards are the pariahs of P99, and thats because even the best played Bard does not serve a core role. Granted a lot of this is because of the old XP penalty.

Any class played really well shines - However I tend to think in terms of level 50+ grouping. So with that in mind, Bards have sh!ty DPS, sh!ty CC, sh!ty regen (although it stacks), sh!ty haste, and sh!ty slows. They literally excel at nothing. Bards only shine when the group is already put together very well and they can "grease the wheel" with situational usefulness.

I have a level 55 Bard also and I love playing him, but they are a poor mans Enchanter at best and a bad Monk at worst

Source: 55+ Monk/Necro/Bard here

[rollin5k]

Wizard - a well played wizard is a thing of beauty. Responding when the group says its time to move. Or answering questions. Evaccing instead of staying seated taking full damage quads from a bad pull.

[Tarskin]

Bard

[Sorn]

Bard!

Have grouped with a bard who saved everyone with quick thinking when the AFK necro's pet was about to push a spider off the edge in the frenzy camp in Velks by charming the spider. I'm sure you can imagine the train that would have resulted if he hadn't done that.

[Cecily]

I don't like this thread. A more fun thread would be which class played poorly hurts the group the most.

EQ is a synergy game. Give me a buffed up, attentive rogue any day. Then give me another. Then give me a warrior who doesn't alt-tab autoattack during fights. Then give me a healer who knows how to CC, a decent puller, and a dedicated CC class.

None of those people are pulling more weight than the others. Any of those people not doing their job makes the group suffer.

[koros]

All i will say is that there is a reason Bards are the pariahs of P99, and thats because even the best played Bard does not serve a core role. Granted a lot of this is because of the old XP penalty.

Any class played really well shines - However I tend to think in terms of level 50+ grouping. So with that in mind, Bards have sh!ty DPS, sh!ty CC, sh!ty regen (although it stacks), sh!ty haste, and sh!ty slows. They literally excel at nothing. Bards only shine when the group is already put together very well and they can "grease the wheel" with situational usefulness.

I have a level 55 Bard also and I love playing him, but they are a poor mans Enchanter at best and a bad Monk at worst

Source: 55+ Monk/Necro/Bard here

Well played bard is probably kiting 6 mobs while the group picks them off 1 by 1, playing mana song, using a temp charmed mob to fight another mob (so reducing 2 mobs hp at once), and dotting stuff down. They're a bit more than a poor mans enchanter.

[maskedmelon]

Well played bard is probably kiting 6 mobs while the group picks them off 1 by 1, playing mana song, using a temp charmed mob to fight another mob (so reducing 2 mobs hp at once), and dotting stuff down. They're a bit more than a poor mans enchanter.

Yeah, personally I prefer chasing mobs around rather than fighting stationary ones. It makes me feel like I am good at something as I watch the other melee continue to fall out of range.

#mezisoverrated #whoneedsahealer

[pogs4ever]

Bard. Honorable mention to pally in an xp group.


enc are like pet cats: badass on their own and 99% of the time they don't need you; they may just share their OP with your group from time to time for their own amusement/braggadocio.

Worst played per cecily:
AFk clerics
Lute holding bards
Warriors with dps weapons

[Pheer]

Definitely bard.

In fact I feel like few people on this server have even gotten to experience grouping in a dungeon like seb or HS with a bard played to its maximum potential. Ive been in raid guilds on this server since it opened and even I have only gotten to group with an insanely good group bard a handful of times. I watched one chain pull seb better than any monk.

[Gumbo]

I've noticed this problem and maybe it's just the Bards that I have been in a group with but they will start with playing songs and buffing/healing people. But within five minutes, they just want to be a tank and jump into combat and stop playing songs. Then they complain when people complain about not having haste or any buffs.

[skarlorn]

Yesterday I was camping guk spiders, just about to break the giant spider, and a red con bard ran in and sniped it. Not technically illegal I guess, but fuck bards

[Nixtar]

Shame 99% of the bards on p99 swarm and then fail hard in groups. But yes, theoretically, a bard can have a massive impact.

[Izmael]

If there's one open spot in my group doing a high level dungeon and we have a good enc and an equally good bard both applying for the spot, I'd personally pick enc pretty much every single time, but maybe that's just me.

[skarlorn]

If there's one open spot in my group doing a high level dungeon and we have a good enc and an equally good bard both applying for the spot, I'd personally pick enc pretty much every single time, but maybe that's just me.
I would too, but I have a lot more faith in enchanters. Only VERY rarely have I grouped with a bard that was worthy of the praise so many ppl give to the class. Enchanter has a more solid feeling in group to me. Long duration buffs, solid charm pet dps, not to mention if they are pro they are running to different spots in camp casting minor illusion for your entertainment

[Kowalski]

GM

[astuce999]

Very interesting thread. It's divided into people who have played with godly bards and know nothing comes close, and people who haven't seen it happen and therefore think it's overhyped and choose something else.

It's a great social experiment.

I have a 60 bard, 60 chanter, and 60 necro.

I understand the arguments about the chanter and necro, and it is true that they can have a very noticeable impact. Depending on the dungeon, they trade the silver medal.

But the bard takes the gold. It's not even close. If the impact level was on a scale, then necro's and chanter would be rated from 1 to 10. But the bard would be from 1 to 100.

There will always be disbelievers. It's like trying to explain the ocean to someone who's only ever seen lakes.

Astuce

[lonmoer]

Bards without a doubt.

[Expediency]

+1 for bard. There is an incredible gap between good bards and bad bards. Necro, pally, or enchanter battle for second imo.

[Raev]

Very interesting thread. It's divided into people who have played with godly bards and know nothing comes close, and people who haven't seen it happen and therefore think it's overhyped and choose something else.

I mean, Bard is very good but I don't see how they can be better than Enchanters when charm is available. For example, I'd take Monk/Cleric/Enchanter with a charmed dire wolf in Kael over any trio involving a Bard. It's a touch worse defensively than say Bard/Warrior/Cleric but far, far stronger offensively. Personal opinion:

1. Monk
2. Enchanter with charmed pet
3. Shaman
4. Bard
5. Enchanter without charmed pet

The biggest problem I have with Bards is that I don't really think they shine in small groups. Can Bard/Shaman duo Tolapumj for example? I've done that many times Shm/Mnk. I don't think it would be possible even without his guards as they wouldn't have enough push or tanking ability.

[lonmoer]

I mean, Bard is very good but I don't see how they can be better than Enchanters when charm is available. For example, I'd take Monk/Cleric/Enchanter with a charmed dire wolf in Kael over any trio involving a Bard. It's a touch worse defensively than say Bard/Warrior/Cleric but far, far stronger offensively. Personal opinion:

1. Monk
2. Enchanter with charmed pet
3. Shaman
4. Bard
5. Enchanter without charmed pet

The biggest problem I have with Bards is that I don't really think they shine in small groups. Can Bard/Shaman duo Tolapumj for example? I've done that many times Shm/Mnk. I don't think it would be possible even without his guards as they wouldn't have enough push or tanking ability.

OPs question is skill though. A good bard will have to set up macros prepared and and a breath of harmony to keep up 5 songs as well as be able to fight, and manage mezzing mobs. I've never had to pay attention nor make as many key pressed to be a good monk vs playing my bard

[Ravager]

It's not the class that makes the biggest difference but the role. A good puller, whether it's warrior, SK, ranger, monk, bard, druid, rogue or whatever is what makes the group good or not. Someone who can pull to keep a steady flow of exp, no matter how fast it is, is the most significant cog in the machine. A good puller will keep things moving at a good, steady rate. A bad puller will wipe you or bore the shit out of you.

[Lowako]

OPs question is skill though. A good bard will have to set up macros prepared and and a breath of harmony to keep up 5 songs as well as be able to fight, and manage mezzing mobs. I've never had to pay attention nor make as many key pressed to be a good monk vs playing my bard

A bard could keep up 8 songs at a time and still provide less power/kill efficiency to the group than an enchanter. A good enchanter provides almost everything a bard does, while also adding more raw DPS than a rogue through the use of charmed pets. Also, enchanters get tash+slow, which are immensely useful.

[Evia]

Very interesting thread. It's divided into people who have played with godly bards and know nothing comes close, and people who haven't seen it happen and therefore think it's overhyped and choose something else.

It's a great social experiment.

I have a 60 bard, 60 chanter, and 60 necro.

I understand the arguments about the chanter and necro, and it is true that they can have a very noticeable impact. Depending on the dungeon, they trade the silver medal.

But the bard takes the gold. It's not even close. If the impact level was on a scale, then necro's and chanter would be rated from 1 to 10. But the bard would be from 1 to 100.

There will always be disbelievers. It's like trying to explain the ocean to someone who's only ever seen lakes.

Astuce


This guy gets it.

[Zuranthium]

I have a 60 bard, 60 chanter, and 60 necro.

I understand the arguments about the chanter and necro, and it is true that they can have a very noticeable impact. Depending on the dungeon, they trade the silver medal.

But the bard takes the gold. It's not even close. If the impact level was on a scale, then necro's and chanter would be rated from 1 to 10. But the bard would be from 1 to 100.

Bard is not better than Enchanter. Their haste is worse, their slow is worse, their charm is worse. It's simple numbers. Enchanter creates more damage and prevents more damage. Bard will be more difficult to play at maximum efficiency simply because of needing to spam different songs non-stop in order to achieve that efficiency, but it doesn't make them better.

[Lojik]

I'll work backwards. Classes with least impact, regardless of skill:
Magician
Wizard
Rogue
Warrior
Druid
Ranger
Necro
Shaman
Paladin
SK
Cleric

These are probably not in the right order, and can move up and down depending on the situation: Rogue is good at sneak pulling/opening doors, but wizard can cc/root park/stun etc. Maybe shaman should be higher, but i think the shm skill cap shows in soloing more than grouping. That leaves:

Monk
Enchanter
Bard

If you're talking about just a standard 6 man grind out exp group, bard has the highest skill cap to affect change to the group. However, small (2-3) exp group I'd lean toward enchanter. You'll also get situations where CC is very tough (resistant mobs, immune to stun/mez,) and being able to single pull well is paramount to your success, and there's really no substitute for a good monk puller. It's easy to see when a great bard is doing a zillion things to help the group, but it's not as easy to see the effects a great monk has on making pulls look easy.

[HeyNomad]

playing bad is more fun

No argument here.

[trite]

bard and enchanter two most skillful group classes , a skillful group bard is a freaking unicorn, they can run in a circle with 10 mobs under their control while your group picks them off one at a time in the upper 50s... or they can sit there afk playing mana song and occasionally meleeing like a PoS

[skarlorn]

so, where is the good guide for Bards in groups?

We've all seen that beautiful unicorn. We've all loved them as they flit away like the shiny, elusive little elves that they are.

Unicorns grow horns through 10,000 hrs time spent grinding. it would be easier if there was a good guide.

[kaev]

Bard is not better than Enchanter. Their haste is worse, their slow is worse, their charm is worse. It's simple numbers. Enchanter creates more damage and prevents more damage. Bard will be more difficult to play at maximum efficiency simply because of needing to spam different songs non-stop in order to achieve that efficiency, but it doesn't make them better.

If a Bard is played as an ersatz enchanter, sure it's inferior to the real thing. Bard is not same as enchanter. Enchanter is unparalleled as a dungeon soloer, no question. But Bard is unparalleled as a group power multiplier. Enchanter perhaps comes closest, but the rare well-played Bard is simply an amazing addition to any competent group.

[Raev]

Bard is not better than Enchanter. Their haste is worse, their slow is worse, their charm is worse. It's simple numbers. Enchanter creates more damage and prevents more damage. Bard will be more difficult to play at maximum efficiency simply because of needing to spam different songs non-stop in order to achieve that efficiency, but it doesn't make them better.

Exactly. I don't understand where this bard mystique comes from. Even when you omit charmed pet destruction, Enchanters get some great tools. 4-slot dispel is amazing. 70% slow prevents more than twice as much melee damage as a bard - a huge difference. 43MR debuff is pretty comparable to 18MR debuff and 30MR debuff proc. Rapture is a great panic button and when combined with memblur allows Enchanters to split things that Bard Lull won't land on. Dictate is great when two sebilite juggernauts are pounding your party. Enchanter haste and mana regen are always on, unlike Bard songs that fade when the bard is trying to single target CC multiple or resisty mobs - exactly when you need them most.

So while I give the nod to the bard, it's pretty close. Then you add a free 1.5 rogues worth of damage from the charmed pet, and I don't understand how this is even an argument.

[Zuranthium]

Yes, totally Raev. I was about to add in how Bards also can't maintain all of their buffs while doing CC on multiple targets, thanks for mentioning it.

Bard is unparalleled as a group power multiplier.

Nope.

The max a Bard can do is Chorus of Replenishment (equal to Enchanter mana regen), 45% haste, 31% Slow, Charm (that breaks every 18 seconds, so it does less DPS), and Mez 1 target. If they don't need to Mez then they can add in an additional 10% of haste, which is still inferior in total to what an Enchanter gives, or they can instead add a little bit of extra mana regen.

Enchanter is doing 64% Haste, 50% Slow (and can go higher if needed), Charm that breaks less often and can work on higher level targets if needed, and can Mez/Root multiple targets while doing this.

[Detoxx]

You know what they say...the best CC is a good monk!

[Cecily]

The max a Bard can do is Chorus of Replenishment (equal to Enchanter mana regen), 45% haste, 31% Slow, Charm (that breaks every 18 seconds, so it does less DPS), and Mez 1 target. If they don't need to Mez then they can add in an additional 10% of haste, which is still inferior in total to what an Enchanter gives, or they can instead add a little bit of extra mana regen.

Enchanter is doing 64% Haste, 50% Slow (and can go higher if needed), Charm that breaks less often and can work on higher level targets if needed, and can Mez/Root multiple targets while doing this.


http://i.imgur.com/l0hQHu6.jpg

[skarlorn]

Alt answer: rogue. If rogue is pick pocketing correctly they should be sneak pulling, delivering dps, and making sure the party gets 50% less loot.

[Jimjam]

Alt answer: rogue. If rogue is pick pocketing correctly they should be sneak pulling, delivering dps, and making sure the party gets 50% less loot.

I don't think I've ever seen a rogue pull. Not saying they aren't suited to it or it doesn't happen, just saying I've never seen it.

[Izmael]

One other thing that puts Enc in first place for me is the fact that it is usually a lot clearer to the other group members what the Enc is doing, than what a Bard is doing, especially in iffy situations.

The bard would have to constantly explain his actions to the group while it's enough to just look at the Enc and you understand what's going on just by his model animations most of the time.

[Morbo the Annihilator]

who are these dorks that play in full groups?

this is EQ, a place to do big things will small numbers.
and with small numbers, bards are garbage.

1. shaman/chanter
paired with a
2. necro/cleric

[Malk]

I don't think I've ever seen a rogue pull. Not saying they aren't suited to it or it doesn't happen, just saying I've never seen it.

No wonder you've never seen it if you don't cast see invis, duh! :p

Apart from this joke, a lot of people choose bard and that may be because of a bias : so many bards are so awful in groups that the few ones that are good seem to be godlike. A good bard is... a good bard and that's it.

Pulling and CCing are often considered as the most skill-hungry tasks, so monks and chanters are good candidates. However CCing is subsequent to pulling and in the end if you look at it as a life-or-death game, the one move that matters the most is the monk FDing at the right time.

[Brut]

Monk isn't relevant at all unless it's a tough camp that actually needs to be single pulls, or a named camp where you don't care to kill trash and just wan't that king solo.

On an exp grp any class can really pull. Just bring mobs in, cc the adds, kill em, keep pulling more. Long as the puller is decent at keeping pace and pulling without leaving stupid amounts of downtime, FD isn't even required.

[Loke]

The max a Bard can do is Chorus of Replenishment (equal to Enchanter mana regen), 45% haste, 31% Slow, Charm (that breaks every 18 seconds, so it does less DPS), and Mez 1 target. If they don't need to Mez then they can add in an additional 10% of haste, which is still inferior in total to what an Enchanter gives, or they can instead add a little bit of extra mana regen.

Enchanter is doing 64% Haste, 50% Slow (and can go higher if needed), Charm that breaks less often and can work on higher level targets if needed, and can Mez/Root multiple targets while doing this.

First, I think you're thinking of Cantana, not Chorus. Secondly, the bard epic is 55% haste, 30 str, and 30 ATK. The proc last for 2:30, so if you're actually attacking you shouldn't need to haste since most bards have high DEX. One of the strengths of a bard is that they can so quickly change roles to fit what the group needs. A good bard can mez, twist a few buffs, and attack all at the same time. People might say bard melee is weak, which it is, but an epic bard can easily put out 30-40 dps on non-raid mobs, which adds up.

Another benefit of a bard over an enchanter is their ability to take hits. I played a bard before I started my ench, and not being able to take a few hits was one of the hardest things to adjust to. A dead enchanter is a lot less useful than even the worst bard, and it is definitely harder to kill a bard than an enchanter.

But the big thing is that the question was "which class when played with skill affects your group the most?"... I don't think casting haste every 42 mins (VoG) or c2 every 35 minutes really takes skill. Which class is the most powerful in the group is not the same thing as which, when played well, affects the group the most. I would argue the barrier to entry on an enchanter is lower, because playing an enchanter is like playing a bard on easy mode. They're definitely a more powerful class, but in a group dynamic they're much easier to play well.

I have a L60 bard and L60 ench, both with epics, and the bard definitely takes more skill to play well in a group. The enchanter may be the more powerful class, but it also isn't that hard to play an enchanter well in a group. Enchanter skill comes into play more when they're solo, or in a small group setting. I can name dozens of enchanters who as just as good as me at the class in a group setting, but can't think of any bards off the top of my head. I'm sure they're out there, but I simply haven't had the opportunity to group with them because they're much more rare than good enchanters.

[Lowako]

words words words

If you take a 100% optimally played enchanter, and a 100% optimally played bard, the enchanter will always have a larger impact on the group. Sure, the skill/effort cap on the bard is probably much higher, but even when you reach your limit you are still not as good as an enchanter. No amount of skill will change the fact that an equally or slightly less competent enchanter will provide more to the group. Also, 40 dps on a bard seems a bit high, but even then, thats like 1/3 of an enchanter pet. Non-epic / not great weapons bards seem to compete with shaman pets for DPS from the few times I've been able to parse them.

Regardless, arguing hypotheticals usually leads nowhere useful.

[Kotopes]

I almost never seen well-played necros, and was surprised this is just as rare on P99 compared with Live. Granted I didn't group with many here yet so bear with me.

[Loke]

40 is pretty accurate. My bard averaged mid 30s on raid mobs (epic, katana of flowing water, 34% worn haste), and exp mobs have less AC. Also, if we're talking about high dps estimates, 120 dps from a charm pet is definitely on the high side.

Overall I agree with you though. Enchanter is the more powerful class, bard skill is just much more noticeable in a group because good bards are few and far between.

[aMindAmok]

I almost never seen well-played necros, and was surprised this is just as rare on P99 compared with Live. Granted I didn't group with many here yet so bear with me.

I want to be a well played necro in groups. First challenge is getting a group though. I know being a necro means I can solo stuff if I want to. Doesn't mean I don't like to group too. People just don't give necros as much opportunity to practice those skills. After an hour of lfg we just go off on our own because we can and that is what people expect us to do anyway.

[Jimjam]

Monk isn't relevant at all unless it's a tough camp that actually needs to be single pulls, or a named camp where you don't care to kill trash and just wan't that king solo.

On an exp grp any class can really pull. Just bring mobs in, cc the adds, kill em, keep pulling more. Long as the puller is decent at keeping pace and pulling without leaving stupid amounts of downtime, FD isn't even required.

I know a lot of monks are proud to bring single pulls, but it really frustrates me when we have a decent CC team, heals and crazy dps in groups and the 'skillful' monk insists on spending ages bring in single pulls. This means the monk's dps has a down time every pull, or even worse the camp runs out of mobs and the entire group's dps is having down time.

I think the real skill in pulling is not taking the time to get single pulls, but quickly getting a manageable number of mobs in to camp to ensure dps is constantly/efficiently applied.

[Zuranthium]

Secondly, the bard epic is 55% haste, 30 str, and 30 ATK.

I wasn't including epics since this thread seemed more geared towards the kind of groups that would be formed where people probably don't have epics, but yes the Bard gains ground with the epic since it gives the class a lot more extra ability in comparison to Enchanter epic.

Still, even with that included, their slow debuff is inferior and Enchanter has the much higher DPS capability. Under ideal conditions an Enchanter pet can be 70% hasted (or at least 66% hasted assuming Epic, if there isn't free mana to spend on the 70% haste), which is phenomenal DPS.

Also, if we're talking about high dps estimates, 120 dps from a charm pet is definitely on the high side.

Dual-wielding, hasted pet can definitely do more than 120 DPS.

But the big thing is that the question was "which class when played with skill affects your group the most?"... I don't think casting haste every 42 mins (VoG) or c2 every 35 minutes really takes skill.

Controlling a max-DPS charm pet, on top of doing the group buffs, AND debuffing targets, AND also Crowd Control, is where the skill ceiling for Enchanter should be discussed. You need to constantly position yourself very well, constantly tell the pet to /sit far enough away, and constantly be attentive of exactly when charm breaks, so that you can mez the pet before it gets to you. Then juggle everything else with that.

[lonmoer]

People need to re-read the original question: "Which class when played with skill affects your group the most?"

Not which class has more powerful versions of spells. Not which class has more DPS. Not which class can be the best duo partner or can pull the best.

[Nixtar]

I know a lot of monks are proud to bring single pulls, but it really frustrates me when we have a decent CC team, heals and crazy dps in groups and the 'skillful' monk insists on spending ages bring in single pulls. This means the monk's dps has a down time every pull, or even worse the camp runs out of mobs and the entire group's dps is having down time.

I think the real skill in pulling is not taking the time to get single pulls, but quickly getting a manageable number of mobs in to camp to ensure dps is constantly/efficiently applied.

A good monk won't just single pull, but keep tabs on every single solitary spawn in order to ensure you have a constant chain of pulls.

Sure, the monk won't press as many keys as a bard or cast fancy spells but a GOOD monk will be 10 steps ahead of the group. Meanwhile, the group is will sit there, apparently, oblivious to the fact why it was a such a good exp night and why they didn't wipe a single time. But a bard/chanter sure looks more active, I'll give you that.

[Brut]

A good monk won't just single pull, but keep tabs on every single solitary spawn in order to ensure you have a constant chain of pulls.
Any class can do this. You don't need to be a monk to bring mobs into a camp, just to split mobs. Actually if it's an outdoors zone, a bard completely outperforms monk in this, due to selos.

[Nixtar]

Any class can do this. You don't need to be a monk to bring mobs into a camp, just to split mobs. Actually if it's an outdoors zone, a bard completely outperforms monk in this, due to selos.

Any class can do it poorly, yes. A wizard can also do damage so therefor on par with rogues in groups?

Also, a bard in a group outdoors have never happened. :D

[Jimjam]

Any class can do this. You don't need to be a monk to bring mobs into a camp, just to split mobs. Actually if it's an outdoors zone, a bard completely outperforms monk in this, due to selos.

Agreed. Remembering what order you pulled mobs isn't a monk exclusive skill. And in xp groups I'd rather the puller ran off once every 5 minutes instead of every 60 seconds in order to apply more of his awesome dps.

Obviously, some times it is better to forgo a chunk of dps and have the mobs come in 1x1, but in most grind situations this is not necessary.

[Lojik]

Agreed. Remembering what order you pulled mobs isn't a monk exclusive skill. And in xp groups I'd rather the puller ran off once every 5 minutes instead of every 60 seconds in order to apply more of his awesome dps.

Obviously, some times it is better to forgo a chunk of dps and have the mobs come in 1x1, but in most grind situations this is not necessary.

If it's just chain pulling and you have good CC, sure any class can do it. If you don't have an enc/bard, and if you don't have a cleric for rezzes, not fucking up the pull is pretty important. I feel like rez availability spoils p99 players compared to live, since so many people have a rez bot parked close by, and dying doesn't really matter as much. If you need to limit the numbers on pulls, monk is the best when you do a sort of average between indoor, outdoor, and resistant/non CCable mobs, but obviously some classes are slightly better for pulling in some specific situations.

If you're talking about a run of the mill xp group (4-6 players,) I don't really think player skill is going to be involved very much after a certain point, since these types of groups set up in places that are ideal anyway on p99. If you start pushing the limits of what your group can do and try more challenging places to level (these are usually dungeons,) I think player skill factors into the situation more. I think the 3 classes most relevant to this discussion for this kind of situation are Monk, Bard, Enchanter.

[Halfelfbard]

A bard that barely ever talks in group is what you want. Thats how you know you got urself a good one.

[Vexenu]

I think a better way to word this question is, "Which class, when played exceptionally well, can carry a group?" Or put another way, which classes are actually capable of turning a mediocre group into a good one, or a good group into a great one? In sports terms, which classes in the hands of a great player are most likely to make "big plays"?

When I say big plays, I'm not referring to the overall efficiency a group gains from a Shaman landing slow. Or a Cleric CHing a charmed pet, i.e. things owing more to the intrinsic power of the class itself and which even mediocre players can reliably bring to bear. Big plays are like the example someone posted earlier of the Bard charming a mob that was about to fall of a ledge and cause a huge train. Another obvious one is a Paladin landing a LoH on the Enchanter who's desperately trying to CC a bunch of mobs. Or a quick-thinking Necro who had the foresight and reaction time to mem Screaming Terror and land it just in time to save a group member's life. It's not surprising that classes with bigger toolboxes of abilities tend to be better in this regard, since this increases their ability to impact the group. Versatility allows you to fill in the gaps as needed, and filling in the gaps is what smooths out the performance of a group over time. Filling in a big gap with quick thinking is what prevents wipes.

From that perspective, I think we can establish a good top 5 of "big play" classes, based on their ability to fill the gaps in a group as needed, especially in response to emergency situations:

1) Bard
2) Paladin
3) Enchanter
4) Pulling Monk
5) Necromancer

[azeth]

nm misread

[RDawg816]

A good bard is more likely than any other class to hold a group together. On my bard I have been the puller, the cc, the off-tank, the healer, the main-tank, etc. depending on the group make-up.

Some classes can fill multiple roles, but none can compete with a bard in that regard (a good bard, anyways.)

Honestly though, in most groups you know who is worth their weight pretty early on...
The rogue that can chain-pull, swap weapons out to hold aggro/snare/slow etc., and knows when not to evade so squishies don't get aggro.
The tank that is always on the mob early and repositions as needed.
The healer that knows to wait for those extra mobs to be rooted before he tries to heal.
The wizard who saves his mana to burn down casters or to kill a mob quickly to prevent an add instead of going oom so he can watch tv or make a pizza.

These types of people make groups better. This type of player on a bard is invaluable, though...

[fadetree]

A ranger who focuses on snap aggro CC'ing mobs off of chanter/cleric, plus spam healing necroes and shammies, can occasionally make a big difference.
This includes knowing how and when to spam-snare (build aggro) mobs while they are mezzed/rooted so they go to him on breaks.

[Nixtar]

It is quite interesting how often the level of importance we attribute to these classes are closely linked to what we have been playing or are playing. Almost like a "Buyer's remorse" type of deal where we stubbornly try to justify the time spent with X character by claiming its contribution to the group made all the difference!

I did it myself, when talking about the monk, so I'm not claiming to be above it. An interesting observation, is all. Perhaps it is a mechanism we use to somehow make the hours we pour into the game not seem like complete waste of time?

I mean, I have never been in a group and thought "Oh man, I wish we had a bard over that monk or enchanter cause then this group would really take off!" Similarly, when a bard has been present and the other classes were lacking. Then again, the forum echo chamber do need their little favourite to parrot the next time someone asks "what is best?"

[maskedmelon]

A ranger who focuses on snap aggro CC'ing mobs off of chanter/cleric, plus spam healing necroes and shammies, can occasionally make a big difference.
This includes knowing how and when to spam-snare (build aggro) mobs while they are mezzed/rooted so they go to him on breaks.

Ranger would be third on my list because they still not awful even when I'm payed poorly ^^ but super awesome when done right!

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Enchanter, hands down.

What other class requires one be able to play for hour after hour, with no afk?

Those pets don't charm themselves, buddy.

[RDawg816]

Enchanter, hands down.

What other class requires one be able to play for hour after hour, with no afk?

Those pets don't charm themselves, buddy.
Enchanters go AFK in my group all the time. I keep them and their pet alive until they get back. If you can't go AFK, you need a better group.

[fadetree]

Well, I play a chanter too and when I have a hasted buffed badass pet I sure as hell don't AFK.

[skarlorn]

Well, I play a chanter too and when I have a hasted buffed badass pet I sure as hell don't AFK.

ya man, when i'm rocking that quadding motha flucka, who got a tampon soaked with amphetamine salt and pure grain alcohol solution shoved inside its ass hole, i'm scared as FnCK to go pee. Which is a problem, because I drink a lot of water (it's a precious bodily fluid).

only when I really really trust my group do I dare go AFK for a quick pee. And even then, I don't wash my hands.

[Shinzu]

Easy. Warrior.

[tristantio]

Wizard - a well played wizard is a thing of beauty. Responding when the group says its time to move. Or answering questions. Evaccing instead of staying seated taking full damage quads from a bad pull.

Hahahaa