Monks - The second best tank in the game?

[Lhancelot]

I have a running discussion/debate with a pal of mine, and often times the monk class is brought up. We have a difference in opinion on the class, and I was curious to see if more experienced players would have more insight on this topic. My questions are as follows:

1. Are monks overpowered in a group setting?

2. Are monks capable of tanking, in fact are they considered the second best tanking class in the game in a group setting?

3. What group is more efficient? One with a warrior, sk, pally, or a monk tanking, and why?

I should mention the debate often revolves around how the monk is capable of doing three of the group roles, that being DPS, pulling, and tanking and how according to one of us in this debate no other classes can do so much, and do it so effectively.

Is it true? Are monks the ultra class that can nearly do it all AND do it great, or are they simply another dps cog in the group setting machinery with a penchant for pulling thanks to FD?

[thufir]

1. sure. You can judge OP several ways but monks have very good damage avoidance and very good DPS, coupled with FD.
2. yes, although their aggro control is kind of dubious. obviously they are good at losing aggro but they can only get aggro through DPS and procs - kinda like a warrior without the taunt. The upside is that they do more damage than warriors. A monk tank can generally get aggro at some point during the fight, but the monk's lack of snap aggro might make for some irritation in the early stages against a tough mob if someone lands a debuff early and the mob goes straight for them.
3. this depends on group composition and where you're fighting. knights have aforementioned snap aggro which can be a real help in a group with an enchanter or other squishies. equipped properly monks can tank about as well as a warrior can and do more damage while doing so, although they have fewer hp so clerics might complain about the CH. generally a monk tank will do ya just fine, although having to both pull and tank is a vague hassle if nobody can hold aggro on the mob while you go get another.

[Kender]

1. yes

2. depends on what you're after. as a damage soaker yes they are probably second best. on threat? cant beat a sk or pally on fast threat and snap agro. monks come last in this aspect behind a warrior because they don't get taunt

3. paladin or sk especially with a bard or chanter. snap and fast agro means dps can go harder earlier. paladin can supplement heals (very useful if healer isn't a cleric) sk can help with lifetaps. However, if threat isn't an issue then monk is also good. warrior is always consistent and get much better as their gear gets better

yes a monk can pull tank and dps but if they are doing all 3 in the one group that groups kill speeds will go down (as they have to go find new volunteers to kill)

[vincenzo]

SK's are the second best tanks unless you are an uber monk in an uber guild with NToV and AoW loot while the SK is rocking EC buyables.
Rogues are better DPS than monks.

Monks are great pullers, average tanks and fairly good DPS. They are versatile but aren't 'the ultra class.' That would be Enchanters.

[nyclin]

1. Are monks overpowered in a group setting? Pretty much. Self-heal, huge melee avoidance, good DPS, FD/sneak.

2. Are monks capable of tanking, in fact are they considered the second best tanking class in the game in a group setting? Monks are easily the best tanks in the game for content which does not absolutely require a Warrior for disc tanking. Aggro is not an issue as a caster with first rank Root can guarantee that the Monk tanks. On top of this, Monks have access to some absolutely amazing aggro weapons: Tranquil Staff, Adamantite Club, and Sarnak Warhammer.

3. What group is more efficient? One with a warrior, sk, pally, or a monk tanking, and why? Depends on the rest of the group IMO, but you can't go wrong with a Knight or Monk tanking in an exp or non-raid group.

Also you don't need NToV or BiS loot to tank on a Monk. I've tanked a ton of stuff with my monk, which has zero raid loot minus Iki boots.

[Lojik]

Depends on who you ask and also the situation. If your group is mostly people afk watching Netflix and throwing out the occasional heal, then pal/sk are prob better tanks since they can snap aggro easily (the only area a monk lacks in terms of tanking.) If you're grouped with some experienced players who are comfortable parking mobs and rooting mobs so tank can face tank, then monk is a probably a better tank. If your main heals are shm/or druid then monk also potentially better.

On raid bosses it's war then pal/sk

[Vexenu]

1) I wouldn't call them overpowered. They aren't really transformational to a group in the same way that a good Enchanter or Bard or Shaman 50+ (slow is OP) can be. But they are certainly powerful. A Monk who knows how to pull well is a huge asset to a group.

2) Yes, in a purely numerical, best-case scenario, non-disc defensive tanking situation Monks are actually the best tanks in the game due to their extremely high avoidance (Block is OP). And high AC Velious gear brings their mitigation on par with Warriors.

3) Here's the rub: while on paper Monks are the best tanks, in practice this is rarely the case, because the game is usually messy. Monks have no way to grab snap agro like a SK or Paladin, no way to reliably interrupt casters like the other tanks, and no real utility to offer the group (i.e. Paladin roots and heals, SK snares, even Warrior snare and slow procs add utility the Monk lacks).

Basically, for a Monk tank to be outright better than a Knight or Warrior requires both an extremely well-geared Monk and an ideal situation (mobs that are not too strong, no casters, and groupmates who understand how to play around the limitations of a Monk tank). As a general rule of thumb, an XP group is always best served with a Knight tank, and a raid will almost always want Warrior tanks. Monk tanking is not ideal in the vast majority of player situations in EQ. The Monk's real power comes from being an excellent puller, excellent DPS and a serviceable tank when needed. It's the ability to wear many hats well rather than wearing one hat (the tank hat) exceptionally well that makes Monks so good.

[mickmoranis]

I mean a velious geared war is > than a velous geared monk.. but a velious geared monk is still > than almost 99% of everquest heh so... /shrug?

[Sage Truthbearer]

Monks rarely cover the role of tanking in 6-person pick-up groups. As a Monk, you will primarily be pulling and DPSing in group settings. Monks may be good at mitigating incoming damage, but their aggro management mostly only goes one way -> dropping aggro.

[mr_jon3s]

If they ever release level 60 monks triple attack you are gonna see some crazy dps.

[Brut]

Properly geared, yup, since they get higher skillcaps than knights on their melee defense skills like Dodge, Riposte. Not sure on the difference in Stamina to HP return, but the mitigation is pretty ridiculous.

Busted class is busted, there's a good reason their tanking abilities got nerfed in Luclin. And a good reason why everyone and their grandmother has a lizard monk here.

[Lojik]

If the monk is 50+ and has epic then usually casters aren't hard to interrupt at all if your group understands push mechanics, and versus stun immune or MR mobs there is no question that monks are better at interrupting. But again, a lot of it is predicated on how experienced your group members are.

[Cecily]

If they ever release level 60 monks triple attack you are gonna see some crazy dps.

meh dps +10% = crazy.

[Lojik]

meh dps +10% = crazy.

2h dmg bonus+triple attack+offhand trick, won't be surprised to see monks top most dps parses, probably hundreds of trorsmangs on the server too.

[mickmoranis]

Monks rarely cover the role of tanking in 6-person pick-up groups. As a Monk, you will primarily be pulling and DPSing in group settings. Monks may be good at mitigating incoming damage, but their aggro management mostly only goes one way -> dropping aggro.

I mean what does a war have for agro that a monk doesnt? dont they just use procs & clicks?

[Sage Truthbearer]

I mean what does a war have for agro that a monk doesnt? dont they just use procs & clicks?

Who said anything about Warriors? In group settings, who you really want to tank is a good Paladin. If you can't get that, then an SK.

[Ravager]

The mages in my pick up groups always insist on letting their pets tank.

[Jimjam]

Even though accumulating AC with Velious is fairly trivial, I don't think monks can accumulate quite as much hp; their HP/STA might be lower?

[mickmoranis]

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3. What group is more efficient? One with a warrior, sk, pally, or a monk tanking, and why?

[astuce999]

I have a running discussion/debate with a pal of mine, and often times the monk class is brought up. We have a difference in opinion on the class, and I was curious to see if more experienced players would have more insight on this topic. My questions are as follows:

1. Are monks overpowered in a group setting?

-------Yes, the class is, technically. Luckily, since the class is well overplayed, chances are you'll see a lot of mediocre monks that make the class just average.

2. Are monks capable of tanking, in fact are they considered the second best tanking class in the game in a group setting?

----Well, technically again, the best tanking class in a group setting is a bard. Luckily, most bards are mediocre and would never attempt this.

3. What group is more efficient? One with a warrior, sk, pally, or a monk tanking, and why?

Mostly SK/Pally because Netflix. But again in theory, bard wins.

I should mention the debate often revolves around how the monk is capable of doing three of the group roles, that being DPS, pulling, and tanking and how according to one of us in this debate no other classes can do so much, and do it so effectively.

---bard does it better. Plus other roles that monks can't. DPS is more than hitting a mob with a stick for the record.

Is it true? Are monks the ultra class that can nearly do it all AND do it great, or are they simply another dps cog in the group setting machinery with a penchant for pulling thanks to FD?

---A well played monk is phenomenal, and there are a few on this server at every level. When I play my monk I feel very shitty compared to what I've seen, and even then I get compliments sometimes from groupmates, just to give you an idea of how low the bar is set.

Astuce

[Sage Truthbearer]

What group is more efficient? One with a warrior, sk, pally, or a monk tanking, and why?

In group settings, who you really want to tank is a good Paladin. If you can't get that, then an SK.

[mickmoranis]

I hate you sage you idiot Im not asking you what your opinion on tanks are so dont quote me.

Im asking people with brains, what wars have to gather agro that a monk doesn't. Please someone with one answer which means not you sage.

[lonmoer]

They're such good tanks that they later get nerfed.

[Varon]

Im asking people with brains, what wars have to gather agro that a monk doesn't. Please someone with one answer which means not you sage.

Taunt.

[nyclin]

Taunt.

Dumping clickies is going to be more reliable than Taunt would ever be in a situation where it really mattered. Otherwise, 1 root net click -> stand on top of mob.

[RedXIII]

All i know is that there is some badass monk-tank out there who tanked Dain when his guild was short on tanks. /shrugs.

[AzzarTheGod]

Yea Its classic. My brother played main monk in a top guild on live for years.

was BIS and doing most of the tanking.

[fugazi]

Monks scale better with levels and items than the three tank classes. What they miss is snap aggro, but that's about it. A wide variety of skills with very high caps mixed with class only gear that is insanely good and amazing scaling make for a class that, when played to its maximum potential, blows the other three out of the water.

However, most people play p99 like its a facebook game and barely add more than the necessary minimum to the group they are in. A SK or paladin will utilize that playstyle better than a monk would.

To he who said bard: straight on. Spamming slow while rocking a good hp pool and ac is pretty much the perfect tank. Hell, pre-50 I snare everything on my ranger so that the casters take zero aggro. Having that ability, but better and with a slow, makes me moist.

[Tuurin]

For most PUGs pre-50, the best tank is whoever is the most twinked melee class.

[Sorn]

For most PUGs pre-50, the best tank is whoever is the most twinked melee class.

I kinda agree with this, but twink gear can be matched by someone who knows what they're doing while only having average gear. If you're a twink but you're pretty much phoning it in the whole time, your group's not gonna like that. If you're super active and on top of things like getting aggro or pulling, the only things you'd lack in without twink gear is HP, a bit of max potential DPS, and snap aggro from procs.

If you can find a major twink who is also on top of stuff, that's who you want to group with. The exp will flow like wine at a Dionysian party.

[Spyder73]

Didnt read through thread so this may have been discussed, but Monks are pretty sh!t tanks until geared out at higher levels and fighting things they are higher level than. Can a monk tank? Under the right circumstances, sure. Are they better than warrior/pal/sK? Short answer is no. if a monk is a viable tank in a situation, chances are so would a Bards/Sk/Pal/War/Rng/Rog of similar gear levels

[xKoopa]

Yes

Im pretty sure my 54 human monk tanked better than my velious geared sk(assuming the raw hp isnt needed to survive)

[Jimjam]

Didnt read through thread so this may have been discussed, but Monks are pretty sh!t tanks until geared out at higher levels and fighting things they are higher level than. Can a monk tank? Under the right circumstances, sure. Are they better than warrior/pal/sK? Short answer is no. if a monk is a viable tank in a situation, chances are so would a Bards/Sk/Pal/War/Rng/Rog of similar gear levels

Mid levels there are tonnes of low weight decent AC items for monks in vanilla (cloak of shadow, azure sleeves, fine silk turban, Syylvaak hide vest and so on), some decent enough ones from kunark too (targin's bone mask springs to mind).

Seeing monks have similar/better melee skills to warriors and AC caps below the 50s are pretty low, I struggle to see how a contentiously geared monk would struggle to tank in these levels. Warriors can solo blues up to and beyond 40 in raw hide.


Monks also have access to better ratio weapons, which combined with their high melee skills and group-mates casting root should make aggro manageable.

Based on these factors, I don't understand why you suggest they are lacklustre tanks mid levels. Is it just most people don't spec for tanking?

[Twochain]

My monk, using T-Staff, can tank pretty much anything that's slowable. Hell, i've also tanked Prot/TolA in seb without slow landing. I also usually don't have problems with agro unless Proc isn't going off, or the rogues are doing insane damage and not evading. I'm also assuming I would have ZERO problems with agro if I used a Bio Orb.

I also usually end up with agro in PUGs if there is a traditional tank in group. Last raid, i think i finished.. 7th? 6th? on the dps chart using fist + SoS. And i'm by no means BiS. I have ONE piece of ToV gear.

So, yeah. If you're looking to say, have a min/max group for farming in sebilis, you want a monk to tank. If you're level 30 in a GY group in MM, it's probably better to have a Knight for snap agro.

[Raev]

The biggest issue with monk defense is the retarded itemization in Velious: NTOV geared Monks have access to way too many items with very high AC. So an NTOV geared Monk has 80% as many HP as similar Warrior, but also evades about 10% more attacks completely due to Block and has similar or greater AC due to the monk bonus and generally tanks about the same until the Warrior hits the god-mode defensive discipline button. Raev has tanked Fjokar Frozenshard without too many issues for example (quad for 400 and flurry, slowable).

Normal XP geared or even Coldain/Dragon geared monks will be weaker than equivalent Warriors defensively, but not massively so. But who cares? XP mobs hit for pitiful amounts of damage and are easy to slow, and if you don't have at least one of Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter your group will suck anyway. The only things that matter are damage and pulling . . . which happen to be a monk's specialties.

So yeah: if you put the time in to get a Primal and NTOV gear and learn the zones well, your monk will be a better tank than a normal HOT geared warrior, better DPS than a normal HOT/Epic rogue, and the best all-around pulling class in the game. There is a reason 110% of the server rolled Iksar Monk.

[Tenlaar]

----Well, technically again, the best tanking class in a group setting is a bard. Luckily, most bards are mediocre and would never attempt this.

This is the correct answer, and bard tanking is the most fun EQ thing to do.

P.S. Put your starting points in stamina.

[Kelor]

This is the correct answer, and bard tanking is the most fun EQ thing to do.

P.S. Put your starting points in stamina.

How can this be with there defensive skill caps all being so low?

[Tenlaar]

Because they have still enough HP while being able to lull, mez, charm DPS, slow/pre-slow, best agro in the game, the hp and mana regen to counteract higher healing mana usage, so on and so forth.

[AzzarTheGod]

warriors precision in berserk mode for #1 dps in the game


intredasting... any blue fellows have any numbers on this? Or is it not common practice on your server.

[Detoxx]

Dumping clickies is going to be more reliable than Taunt would ever be in a situation where it really mattered. Otherwise, 1 root net click -> stand on top of mob.

Taunt used correctly is very efficient. It puts you 1 point ahead of everyone else on the hate list so long as you do not have aggro on the mob. The Warriors that mash taunt do it wrong, but if you are a heads up warrior, you wait for classes to do something like cast Malo or Tash and Slow and right after it lands, you taunt.

Works like a charm.

[Detoxx]

intredasting... any blue fellows have any numbers on this? Or is it not common practice on your server.

I don't have the data on my phone but I have broken 1630 attack and out dps Rogues with Claws of Lightning on the regular. I've done over 120 dps on raid mobs like King Tormax, Vindi, Most north ToV dragons.

1630 attack is so stupidly disgusting. That combined with precision is literally untouchable, berserk or not. I believe on the King Tormax I did 127 dps, landed 590 hits with the next highest being a rogue at like 300 hits.

[AzzarTheGod]

1630 attack is so stupidly disgusting.

Yeah that sounds pretty gross...I feel like I had less than 1550 attack in Planes of Power/Early GoD on my rogue with EPlanes/Time mix.

[Detoxx]

Yeah that sounds pretty gross...I feel like I had less than 1550 attack in Planes of Power/Early GoD on my rogue with EPlanes/Time mix.

Yeah that's maximum effort though. Call of the Predator, Strength of Nature, 3 Aura of Battles (vindi bp, dain belt, doze mask), Avatar, Blue Sword (basically another Avatar) and bard songs / epic proc. I've heard that rogues didn't break 1600 til after PoP but wasn't sure.

[Lhancelot]

So, essentially what I have gotten from all the information here on monks is this:

1. When top geared, a monk can tank not only effectively for a group but better than the tanking classes due to extreme skill caps, avoidance, blocks, and defensive abilities sk/pals do not have. And besides not having a taunt button, a monk can hold aggro just as well as a warrior when in top-end gears.

2. When not in top-gears, a tanking monk can struggle with aggro, and so for lesser equipped monks, or group members not able to manage the aggro problems a monk could have a paladin or sk is better. A warrior might be better only because they do have taunt.

3. If a group manages with a lesser geared monk or one that isn't all that great at tanking, that group probably would do just as well with a ranger, bard, or any other melee that has some ways to hold aggro and can manage to take hits.

That's what I seem to understand regarding monks, tanking, and groups. Is that a fair assessment then?

[maskedmelon]

Mostly naked monk can tank up through KC with a shaman. Substitute cleric for healer and will probably have down time because most clerics will continue to waste mana on divine light rather than ch the monk. It's like their brains are broken and have reserved CH for war/pal/sk. Also absence of slow can make healing more challenging, but still not impossible. Add a necro to the retard cleric and the lack of slow becomes no problem again. OR boot the stupid cleric and roll with two necro. Not all clerics are awful of course ^^

Paladin is incredibly fabuloso when you are in a bad group, particularly one without a monk. It is amazing how much a good paladin can augment a bad group. If you are in a good group, you've no need of a paladin. Same goes for shadow Knights.

Warriors are useful for when your monk is your only melee, so that the monk can continue pulling while the warrior finishes tanking. If you have two monks, warrior not so useful, though they will make ch more efficient and if you are grouped with a retarded cleric, they may actually use it.

Generally speaking though, if you are in a group with a couple of super rogues who can't (and really shouldn't) restrain themselves and monk doesn't have sufficient aggro proc (AC, SWH, TStaff), then get a ranger. They will mitigate more poorly, but will offer better damage than a pal/sk and best snap aggro outside a bard who would work equally well if you don't have another haste/slower already.

[Erati]

1600 very high, like you said you need Bard songs, Bard epic, Ranger buff etc etc etc

post them parses !

[Erati]

So, essentially what I have gotten from all the information here on monks is this:

1. When top geared, a monk can tank not only effectively for a group but better than the tanking classes due to extreme skill caps, avoidance, blocks, and defensive abilities sk/pals do not have. And besides not having a taunt button, a monk can hold aggro just as well as a warrior when in top-end gears.

2. When not in top-gears, a tanking monk can struggle with aggro, and so for lesser equipped monks, or group members not able to manage the aggro problems a monk could have a paladin or sk is better. A warrior might be better only because they do have taunt.

3. If a group manages with a lesser geared monk or one that isn't all that great at tanking, that group probably would do just as well with a ranger, bard, or any other melee that has some ways to hold aggro and can manage to take hits.

That's what I seem to understand regarding monks, tanking, and groups. Is that a fair assessment then?

Monk aggro should never be an issue in a small group setting unless you have a rogue with you who doesnt know how to evade.

Tstaff would fix most aggro issues tho even if you are around bad group mates

[Daldaen]

Dunno why DPS is being discussed but I once saw a monk tank Dain Frostreaver IV. It was a magical sight, as the raid began to panic when Warriors were getting banished and not returned, a bold monk said "don't worry guys, I've got this", using his entire puppet strings to secure aggro and tanked the Dain for probably 60%.

Monks are so OP on this server it's ridiculous. They were properly nerfed in their mitigation during Luclin and PoP, keeping their avoidance values. It was a good era for balance but we unfortunately don't have those expansions. Yet.

[Loke]

Yeah that sounds pretty gross...I feel like I had less than 1550 attack in Planes of Power/Early GoD on my rogue with EPlanes/Time mix.

This sounds wrong. PoP was a huge increase in ATK items. I think worn ATK was capped at 250 from items, but with beastlord buffs I remember my elemental planes geared rog was able to break 2k easily. I quit before we really got in to PoTime, so that was just with elemental gear. I wanna say fully raid buffed was somewhere in the 2100-2300 range.

[Daldaen]

The worn ATK cap for gear was +250. The unbuffed ATK cap for rangers in PoP was 1620. Monks/Rogues/Beast/Warriors was 1566.

But on top of those worn values, you'd have things like bard War March, Symphony of Battle clicky from PoTime, among other things you didn't have available pre-PoP. So over 2000 ATK was definitely attainable with buffage.

[Sage Truthbearer]

Monk aggro should never be an issue in a small group setting unless you have a rogue with you who doesnt know how to evade.

Tstaff would fix most aggro issues tho even if you are around bad group mates

Yeah, but you have to remember that the average person who plays P99 is joining pick-up groups filled with random strangers of varying skill levels who leave the group every 30 minutes and get replaced by a new stranger. It's a roll of the dice if any of these people know how to manage their aggro correctly. Some are great, some are horrible.

I leveled a Paladin 1-60 mostly in PuGs, and having snap aggro is not only incredibly useful but almost necessary for making these kinds of groups run efficiently. Yeah, Monks can mitigate incoming damage way better than me but for group content that gets steamrolled anyway, mitigation doesn't matter as much as being able to quickly and reliably generate aggro.

[Trungep99]

Monks don't have taunt or snap agro. So that can prevent you from holding a mob on you

[Jimjam]

Yeah, but you have to remember that the average person who plays P99 is joining pick-up groups filled with random strangers of varying skill levels who leave the group every 30 minutes and get replaced by a new stranger. It's a roll of the dice if any of these people know how to manage their aggro correctly. Some are great, some are horrible.

I leveled a Paladin 1-60 mostly in PuGs, and having snap aggro is not only incredibly useful but almost necessary for making these kinds of groups run efficiently. Yeah, Monks can mitigate incoming damage way better than me but for group content that gets steamrolled anyway, mitigation doesn't matter as much as being able to quickly and reliably generate aggro.

This is a good point. You'd think having root in group, and most classes having ways to manage aggro would be enough to make aggro management moot for any class, but no.

[Detoxx]

Heres a few Parses:

/GU Velketor the Sorcerer in 229s, 68k @297sdps --- Detoxx 26k @115sdps --- Eliashib 12k @53sdps --- Monnkey 10k @45sdps --- Legday 8k @35sdps --- Metalopolis 8k @34sdps --- Bitie 2k @10sdps --- Jasekab 0k @2sdps --- Jonwayne 0k @2sdps --- Xobekn 0k @1sdps --- Angelice 0k @0sdps

/GU Eashen of the Sky in 135s, 161k @1194sdps --- Detoxx 15k @111sdps --- Digler 13k @93sdps --- Skew 9k @68sdps --- Katierakel 8k @58sdps --- Bitie 7k @55sdps --- Fundo 7k @51sdps --- Jonwayne 7k @51sdps --- Nejinmy 7k @50sdps --- Mebbas 7k @49sdps --- Barlow 6k @48sdps

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 170s, 179k @1054sdps --- Detoxx 17k @102sdps --- Grimgart 13k @77sdps --- Keak 13k @76sdps --- Katierakel 13k @75sdps --- Florid 13k @74sdps --- Viscere 11k @66sdps --- Reptak 10k @60sdps --- Unfaithful 9k @54sdps --- Fallson 8k @50sdps --- Scarlo 8k @48sdps

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 131s, 180k @1374sdps --- Detoxx 16k @123sdps --- Digler 14k @104sdps --- Jonwayne 14k @103sdps --- Baxter 12k @89sdps --- Katierakel 11k @87sdps --- Grumpor 11k @83sdps --- Bitie 11k @83sdps --- Dripping 10k @79sdps --- Roublard 9k @70sdps --- Thermite 7k @55sdps

/GU The Progenitor in 226s, 175k @775sdps --- Detoxx 35k @155sdps --- Fundo 24k @105sdps --- Gollum 18k @81sdps --- Eliashib 17k @76sdps --- Bollokks 15k @65sdps --- Xann 11k @51sdps --- Steelz 11k @50sdps --- Florid 11k @49sdps --- Lazie 10k @45sdps --- Hiyashi 10k @44sdps

/GU Wuoshi in 106s, 73k @684sdps --- Detoxx 11k @107sdps --- Digler 9k @84sdps --- Katierakel 9k @84sdps --- Cyrano 7k @62sdps --- Dudeisbeast 5k @48sdps --- Jonwayne 4k @42sdps --- Mebbas 4k @41sdps --- Florid 4k @36sdps --- Legday 3k @31sdps --- Bitie 3k @28sdps

/GU King Tormax in 223s, 419k @1880sdps --- Detoxx 19k @87sdps --- Digler 18k @79sdps --- Bitie 16k @73sdps --- Fundo 16k @70sdps --- Jonwayne 15k @69sdps --- Faided 14k @65sdps --- Grumpor 14k @64sdps --- Katierakel 14k @64sdps --- Cyrano 14k @63sdps --- Corkian 14k @62sdps

[skarlorn]

Most monks are played by weirdos anyway.

[pasi]

In terms of sheer damage taken, yes - they are #2. No excuses, you had 16 years to learn that.

You're also comparing one of the stronger classes in the game versus the two weakest classes throughout EQ's history.

Monks were nerfed in Luclin because Warriors complained that with the high AC on all/all gear (mostly on Velious Gear, but wasn't widely available until Luclin) combined with the minimal returns on AC above the softcap meant that monks took in less damage than non-disc'd warriors.

The result was that monk avoidance was buffed and their mitigation got nerfed.

Then you have Brodda Thepp's parses in PoP that showed monks were probably still taking in damage at a lower amount than Knights.

CLS AC SHLD AVD DB DI AVG MIT% ATKS HIT% MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% | DMG
WAR 2271 15% 0 87 21 223.3 71.1 2573 48.9 42.2 NA 4.2 5.9 5.3 | 109.2
SK 1861 0% 10 102 22.1 268.4 65.6 2951 48.9 44.2 NA 3.5 5.3 3.8 | 131.2
PAL 2066 0% 0 102 22.1 255.1 68.8 3153 51.1 40.4 NA 4.1 5.5 4.7 | 130.4
CLR 1958 2% 0 100 22.1 270.5 64.6 2775 65.7 33.1 NA 1.8 NA NA | 177.7
RNG 1728 2% 10 100 22.1 292.1 59.5 2359 48.5 43.5 NA 4.2 6.0 4.0 | 141.7
ROG 1952 2% 20 100 22.1 302.9 56.9 3121 47.8 43.6 NA 5.4 5.4 4.4 | 144.8
SHM 1859 0% 10 102 22.1 287.2 61.1 2932 63.9 35.0 NA 1.8 NA NA | 183.5
DRU 1565 0% 40 102 22.1 306.1 56.6 2619 61.1 37.7 NA 1.9 NA NA | 187.0
BST 1432 0% 25 102 22.1 320.0 53.3 2119 47.8 41.9 10.2 3.7 NA 4.0 | 153.0
MNK 1854 2% 60 100 22.1 311.0 55.0 3476 41.1 47.2 12.0 5.4 NA 4.7 | 127.8
*MNK 1635 2% 60 100 22.1 313.2 54.5 2923 42.0 46.8 11.6 4.9 NA 4.7 | 131.5

*MNK This is where I took 35000 copper to remove all monk AC bonus and tanked. It removed 219ac from my monk. Was it mitigation AC or avoidance AC or both? No one knows.

Then I did a set of parses in GoD (RIP TSW/SK.org) comparing a Time Monk versus a Time SK and Time Warrior which showed monks probably still ahead of Knights. A lot of this was attributed to shielding being weak versus avoidance being strong and the relative availability of both.

This is also ignoring important aspects of tanking like aggro which knights are undeniably superior or instant-burst mitigation which knights completely lacked (outside of paladin stuns on lower level mobs).

I think it took until the Shield Block AA in OoW for knights to finally start taking in less damage than monks.

TLDR: knights suck, roll a monk or warrior instead.