Consistency in weapon DMG/DPS

[kgallowaypa]

So I have had this nagging question about weapon DPS over time and idk if someone here can shed some light on something that might be solved with either a parser or just some tables but here is my thought:

When talking about weapons that are high damage but high delay like the Staff of Battle or Wurmslayer, if you swing and miss, although you are generating hate per swing, the change to do damage is gone if you technically miss. A double attack or quad is still an added chance to hit but on normal swings, a miss is a miss = no damage to mob regardless of threat.

With that mindset, wouldn't it make sense that lower damage lower delay weapons like jade mace or other similar 9/18 1hs dual wield produce more damage over time because you are making more chances to hits per swing than the time it takes to swing a longer delay weapon? Thus increasing the chance per swing you can nail a hit and produce damage?

Another consideration is the maximum damage output of said weapon. For example, I have only seen max 120 regular hits on a wurmslayer at 240 STR at level 48 but of course a double attack or dual wield throws other variables into the mix... yet if in that fight you only produce an average of 80 dmg with the wurmy, in the same timeframe, you have quicker attacks that stack together when you are comboing fast weapons?


TLDR:
At the end of the day, the main question is for sustained DPS; 1 slow but heavy damage item plus a fast offhand -- or 2 fast weapons with low damage for consistency?

Kind of curious what you guys might think about this - -also applies to any dual wield class such as monks & rogues.

[RDawg816]

A lot depends on the mob/situation. Damage shields, obviously a 2 hander is better. It's common knowledge (I think) that mobs in Velious have higher AC so faster weapons win there. I don't have any parses though. :)

[fash]

wouldn't it make sense that lower damage lower delay weapons like jade mace or other similar 9/18 1hs dual wield produce more damage over time because you are making more chances to hits per swing than the time it takes to swing a longer delay weapon? Thus increasing the chance per swing you can nail a hit and produce damage?

No. You're conflating average dps and dps consistency.

Consider extreme examples. If you rolled 1000 6-sided dice, the expected sum is 3.5*1000=3500. It effectively is a normal distribution. On the other hand, if you rolled one die with 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, & 6000 on the six sides, the expected value of one roll is also 3500. While the expected values in both cases are 3500 (i.e. the average dps), the standard deviations (i.e. dps consistency) are wildly different, about 2 vs 2000.

[Vallanor]

A lot depends on the mob/situation. Damage shields, obviously a 2 hander is better. It's common knowledge (I think) that mobs in Velious have higher AC so faster weapons win there. I don't have any parses though. :)

This seems to be accurate anecdotally. In classic zones my paladin's new uber 2h weapon (47/41) seems to obliterate mobs a lot faster than my best 1h weapon (27/29). On Velious mobs it seems to be a lot closer. Still edge to the 2h since the 1h isn't all that fast, but not by as much as you'd expect.

No parsing on my end either, though so hard to say with any certainty.

[Erati]

^glad to hear your 2hander kicking butt!

[Vallanor]

^glad to hear your 2hander kicking butt!

Haha I love it so much! Can't wait for the 2 hander damage upgrade that I'm told will eventually happen.

[kgallowaypa]

No. You're conflating average dps and dps consistency.

Consider extreme examples. If you rolled 1000 6-sided dice, the expected sum is 3.5*1000=3500. It effectively is a normal distribution. On the other hand, if you rolled one die with 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, & 6000 on the six sides, the expected value of one roll is also 3500. While the expected values in both cases are 3500 (i.e. the average dps), the standard deviations (i.e. dps consistency) are wildly different, about 2 vs 2000.

Great response man, when I get home from work I got a couple of weapons I am going to parse out with a template to show if the distribution shows as you explained it.

Gonna try out:
1x Lammy
1x Wurmy
1x Wrapped entropy
1x Jade mace
1x Venom axe

With different combinations to see what some parsing says.

[fash]

Since you're specifically interested in slow 1hs, also consider that your offhand swings no faster than your mainhand. If your offhand has relatively low delay (& presumably dmg) compared to your mainhand, you may get better dps from your offhand by switching to a slow offhand with higher dmg. (Double check the dual wield mechanics with someone else, I've very little experience playing a melee char)

[Jimjam]

Since you're specifically interested in slow 1hs, also consider that your offhand swings no faster than your mainhand.
This isn't true. Tested.

[Sage Truthbearer]

Two-handers are borked right now, I highly recommend staying away from them.

I have a Craslith, Lance of Thunder, FD, ND, etc. I have tested their DPS output and it is hot garbage compared to what I get from my one-hander.

Try to get your hands on an Emerald Bastardsword of Purity or other nice one-hander until the two-hand upgrade.

[Vallanor]

Two-handers are borked right now, I highly recommend staying away from them.

I have a Craslith, Lance of Thunder, FD, ND, etc. I have tested their DPS output and it is hot garbage compared to what I get from my one-hander.

Try to get your hands on an Emerald Bastardsword of Purity or other nice one-hander until the two-hand upgrade.

Is this your experience on raid targets or higher end Velious mobs specifically? I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case on those types of mobs.

I've been mowing down some low blues in LGuk with a good 2 hander and it's been pretty great, but their AC isnt such a big deal. Seems like 1h for raids/Velious, 2h for lower AC stuff to me.

[Sage Truthbearer]

Is this your experience on raid targets specifically or higher end Velious mobs? Wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I've been mowing down some low blues in LGuk with a good 2 hander and it's been pretty great, but their AC isnt such a big deal.

That is my experience mostly with Velious mobs, including raid targets but also trash mobs in Kael, WL, etc.

The appeal of the two-hander is supposed to trading a slower weapon for significantly higher maximum damage per hit. The problem is the maximum hit is very weak against Velious mobs because like you said, they have too much AC.

With my one-hander I'm getting similar average damage per hit vs Velious mobs, but with a much better delay, and it's a lot less painful when I miss a swing.

[fash]

This isn't true. Tested.

I'm curious how you tested this and what you observed. I've never seen my offhand swing without the mainhand. It seems like the dual wield check occurs only when your mainhand swings.

[RDawg816]

I'm curious how you tested this and what you observed. I've never seen my offhand swing without the mainhand. It seems like the dual wield check occurs only when your mainhand swings.

Put a slow weapon primary and a fast weapon offhand.

[Jimjam]

I'm curious how you tested this and what you observed. I've never seen my offhand swing without the mainhand. It seems like the dual wield check occurs only when your mainhand swings.
It's pretty obvious when you use a secondary with like half the delay of your primary.

[Naethyn]

Attack is everything for dps so keep in mind that buffs (avatar) and aura of battle are huge. For a warrior I've found that a 2h will out dps dw if precision disc is running. A lower delay 2h will also trigger triple attack more often. Crippling blows with a faster delay 2h will also occur more often with hardly any loss in damage. Without precision running the blue warrior epic offhand's attack stat will provide more dps than a better ratio offhand. A warrior can out dps any other class with precision and crippling blows for velious content.

[maskedmelon]

I'm curious how you tested this and what you observed. I've never seen my offhand swing without the mainhand. It seems like the dual wield check occurs only when your mainhand swings.

If that is your supposition then you would never expect to see your offhand swing more than 78% the times of your mainhand irrespective of delays. As a monk it is simple to test. SoS in mainhand, empty offhand (provided you have epic). Over a 45 second fight you should see no more than 16 swings from your offhand, not including double attacks.

just throw out one of each offhand attack that has a duplicate or near 0 difference time entry in your log ^^

[fash]

If that is your supposition then you would never expect to see your offhand swing more than 78% the times of your mainhand irrespective of delays. As a monk it is simple to test. SoS in mainhand, empty offhand (provided you have epic). Over a 45 second fight you should see no more than 16 swings from your offhand, not including double attacks.

just throw out one of each offhand attack that has a duplicate or near 0 difference time entry in your log ^^

Thanks. My problem is I only have 1 1h weapon + fists to test on my melee character atm. Once I get more gear, I'll test it more thoroughly. :)

[Donruss]

I have a Moss covered twig to push casters with. It is offhand only and fires much more frequently then epic main hand.

[Vallanor]

I managed to snag a 24/22 1hs this past weekend, so I'll do some actual parsing on old world mobs with low AC and some Velious crap with boatloads of AC and see how it shakes out.

[Vallanor]

With 41℅ haste, my paladin seems to be doing approximately 35-38 dps against dark blue mobs in classic zones with my 47/41 2hb. Against the same mobs, my 24/22 1hs does closer to 32-35 dps (excluding the proc). The 1hs has far more consistent dps while the 2hb can be hilariously variable.

Against green mobs with low AC, the 2hb is way better (dumb sand giants don't know what hit them), but generally 2h weapons do seem less effective than you'd expect. I'm sure this gets even worse as mob level and AC increases.

I'll keep both weapons in my bags and swap out at random to keep things interesting, but I've gone so far as to update my Magelo to reflect the 1hs as my primary weapon. I should note that the superior fashion rating of the sword played a big role in that momentous decision.

[Sage Truthbearer]

With 41℅ haste, my paladin seems to be doing approximately 35-38 dps against dark blue mobs in classic zones with my 47/41 2hb. Against the same mobs, my 24/22 1hs does closer to 32-35 dps (excluding the proc). The 1hs has far more consistent dps while the 2hb can be hilariously variable.

Against green mobs with low AC, the 2hb is way better (dumb sand giants don't know what hit them), but generally 2h weapons do seem less effective than you'd expect. I'm sure this gets even worse as mob level and AC increases.

I'll keep both weapons in my bags and swap out at random to keep things interesting, but I've gone so far as to update my Magelo to reflect the 1hs as my primary weapon. I should note that the superior fashion rating of the sword played a big role in that momentous decision.

Interesting, from what you said the 1HS did better vs low-AC mobs than I would have expected. Just goes to show how weak 2H are right now imo. I would be interested if you ever do a test against higher-AC mobs.

Also, don't forget that shield ac is another benefit to the sword and board. If you able to get your hands on a high-ac shield like the Sevalak one or NToV one you will notice a pretty huge boost in worn AC, simply because the shield is the only slot in EQ where you get ALL the ac from the item even if you're above the softcap,

[koros]

Interesting, from what you said the 1HS did better vs low-AC mobs than I would have expected. Just goes to show how weak 2H are right now imo. I would be interested if you ever do a test against higher-AC mobs.

Also, don't forget that shield ac is another benefit to the sword and board. If you able to get your hands on a high-ac shield like the Sevalak one or NToV one you will notice a pretty huge boost in worn AC, simply because the shield is the only slot in EQ where you get ALL the ac from the item even if you're above the softcap,

Got any evidence this is the case/was the case in classic eq? Pretty sure the concept of shield ac was added way later.

[Sage Truthbearer]

Got any evidence this is the case/was the case in classic eq? Pretty sure the concept of shield ac was added way later.

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure that Shield AC applies on P99. What point in the timeline it was added on classic/live is another question. Maybe try checking old patch notes or Steel Warrior forums and see exactly when it was added.

[Vallanor]

Do we actually know where the soft cap kicks in? The best info I could find was in this forum thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48312), but I don't know if any of that is true on P99. I had heard AC was borked on this server a long time ago so never really focused on AC as an important stat. Might be time to revisit some of my gear now that it seems to be fixed, but I'd be very interested to see how close to the soft cap my paladin is already.

[xKoopa]

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure that Shield AC applies on P99. What point in the timeline it was added on classic/live is another question. Maybe try checking old patch notes or Steel Warrior forums and see exactly when it was added.

Sevalak shield definitely adds a ton of visual ac

I think i was gaining 97 visual ac from equipping it but its been a while since i looked

[Sage Truthbearer]

Do we actually know where the soft cap kicks in? The best info I could find was in this forum thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48312), but I don't know if any of that is true on P99. I had heard AC was borked on this server a long time ago so never really focused on AC as an important stat. Might be time to revisit some of my gear now that it seems to be fixed, but I'd be very interested to see how close to the soft cap my paladin is already.

I think the AC softcap on live was supposed to be really low, supposedly only around 300 AC for plate classes. See this thread: http://reborninfire.proboards.com/thread/37

If that is true on P99, then you'd add up all your Item AC and anything above the first 300 will be penalized by 55% (Warriors) or 66% (Knights), except for shields which you would get 100% of the AC from.

[Vallanor]

I think the AC softcap on live was supposed to be really low, supposedly only around 300 AC for plate classes. See this thread: http://reborninfire.proboards.com/thread/37

If that is true on P99, then you'd add up all your Item AC and anything above the first 300 will be penalized by 55% (Warriors) or 66% (Knights), except for shields which you would get 100% of the AC from.

Interesting. 300 does seem pretty low, though I'm only at 230 before factoring in the shield. Room for improvement!