Raid guild loot systems other than DKP?

[Lhancelot]

I am just curious what loot systems are in effect besides DKP?

I have heard about <Clue> using /ran on ALL loots, is this true?

Are there other guilds that also use this method? How far have <Clue> and other guilds who use this system for loot progressed with content?

What other systems of loot is there besides doing /ran and DKP?

Just curious if any other guilds have found ways to make it fair for all members to get loot equally, or if all raid guilds pretty much have a core group of pixel fiending greedy nerds that drive their guild like slavemasters driving their zerg to gobble up as much pixels as possible for their own greedy ends?

[Nixtar]

Random works well but I think it takes a bit of personal responsibility. Perhaps whoever does loot at the raid makes a note and creates a MAX LOOT table. Like you can't win X amount of items in a row.

I've seen people random on EVERYTHING during raids and go home tons of new pixels and when you are raiding with your own guild then maybe, just maybe, don't act like a greedy loot whore. You're not in a bloody PUG.

[Lhancelot]

Random works well but I think it takes a bit of personal responsibility. Perhaps whoever does loot at the raid makes a note and creates a MAX LOOT table. Like you can't win X amount of items in a row.

I've seen people random on EVERYTHING during raids and go home tons of new pixels and when you are raiding with your own guild then maybe, just maybe, don't act like a greedy loot whore. You're not in a bloody PUG.

Ahh good point, some people actually do seem luckier on rolling than others. That would suck to be the unlucky roller never winning anything while one guy rolls and wins 75% of the items that drop.

[Dantel]

On live when a piece of loot would drop in our raids, an officer in charge of loot would post an item in guild and ask for tells.

You would then link them the item you were wearing that the dropped item would replace.

They would then decide who would get the loot, based off need and attendance.

That was it.

[Nitsude]

On live when a piece of loot would drop in our raids, an officer in charge of loot would post an item in guild and ask for tells.

You would then link them the item you were wearing that the dropped item would replace.

They would then decide who would get the loot, based off need and attendance.

That was it.

That would be called a loot council system

[Sano Stonefist]

On live when a piece of loot would drop in our raids, an officer in charge of loot would post an item in guild and ask for tells.

You would then link them the item you were wearing that the dropped item would replace.

They would then decide who would get the loot, based off need and attendance.

That was it.

if you have fair officers, this works well.
my guild did it too on live.

[Freakish]

On live when a piece of loot would drop in our raids, an officer in charge of loot would post an item in guild and ask for tells.

You would then link them the item you were wearing that the dropped item would replace.

They would then decide who would get the loot, based off need and attendance.

That was it.

I hate that system. It encourages people to be lazy and not upgrade their gear. I can either link silver chitin wristbands or I could just keep using hero bracers until my skyshrine Bracer drops. Might as well be lazy so I look like I need the upgrade more.

[Swish]

I hate that system. It encourages people to be lazy and not upgrade their gear. I can either link silver chitin wristbands or I could just keep using hero bracers until my skyshrine Bracer drops. Might as well be lazy so I look like I need the upgrade more.

Exactly, everyone would forever be "dressing down" for raids and that's the last thing you need if you're doing difficult content.

[kotton05]

Most fair in my opinion is a hybrid loot council + dkp. As long as the officers are not corrupt. I ran a strict loot council once and we had no problem. But every system will be flawed when you're talking green scales and other assorted high end pixels.

[Gain]

I am just curious what loot systems are in effect besides DKP?

I have heard about <Clue> using /ran on ALL loots, is this true?

Are there other guilds that also use this method? How far have <Clue> and other guilds who use this system for loot progressed with content?

What other systems of loot is there besides doing /ran and DKP?

Just curious if any other guilds have found ways to make it fair for all members to get loot equally, or if all raid guilds pretty much have a core group of pixel fiending greedy nerds that drive their guild like slavemasters driving their zerg to gobble up as much pixels as possible for their own greedy ends?

As an officer of Clue I can attest to the fact that we /ran about 98% of all drops. We have just started messing around in PoG in the last couple weeks and we killed Lord Bob for the first time last night.

[Ravager]

Dice don't discriminate. All other systems are inherently biased, because they are designed that way. Anyone who argues for a loot system that isn't straight /random is doing so because they believe it will favor them more, whether they think it's justified or not to favor themselves is irrelevant to the fact that anything but /random is a biased system designed to favor one player over another.

[myriverse]

Frankly, I find point systems fairer than random. Putting everyone on an equal footing is inherently biased.

[Baler]

/duel until there is only one.

http://i.imgur.com/b8vdbXH.jpg

[Pint]

Aftermath uses a hybrid dkp system where in I pick and choose what I want on the spot and if I decide my main or alts can't use it then I let the rest of the guild bid their dkp. It's probably the best system I've seen.

[Freakish]

Aftermath uses a hybrid dkp system where in I pick and choose what I want on the spot and if I decide my main or alts can't use it then I let the rest of the guild bid their dkp. It's probably the best system I've seen.

BDA did it better.

[Pint]

BDA did it better.

Probably but I can only speak to my experiences

[Swish]

/duel until there is only one.

http://i.imgur.com/b8vdbXH.jpg

^^

[Dreenk317]

My guild on DAoC used to use a master looter and /random system. All loot was collected by one of the guild treasurers, and at end of raid, all loot was linked to chat and then 1 item at a time people were able to roll for them. If they wanted to. Everyone got one roll per raid. (For the most part) If you won an item, you were no longer eligible to win another item until everyone had received one (if there was that much loot.) this resulted in a system where often, quest drop items and gear for less popular classes, or great armor slot pieces that weren't necessarily worth a lot of coin would often be left without more then 2-3 people rolling for them because everyone wanted a roll on the big money item, whatever it might have been, and if they won an item before we got to the one they wanted, they weren't elligible to roll on it.

This resulted in nearly everyone getting something almost every time we raided. Granted, divvying up the loot often took a solid hour. But in a game where people poopsock raid spawns for days on end, what's an hour to divy up the loots.

[Lhancelot]

My guild on DAoC used to use a master looter and /random system. All loot was collected by one of the guild treasurers, and at end of raid, all loot was linked to chat and then 1 item at a time people were able to roll for them. If they wanted to. Everyone got one roll per raid. (For the most part) If you won an item, you were no longer eligible to win another item until everyone had received one (if there was that much loot.) this resulted in a system where often, quest drop items and gear for less popular classes, or great armor slot pieces that weren't necessarily worth a lot of coin would often be left without more then 2-3 people rolling for them because everyone wanted a roll on the big money item, whatever it might have been, and if they won an item before we got to the one they wanted, they weren't elligible to roll on it.

This resulted in nearly everyone getting something almost every time we raided. Granted, divvying up the loot often took a solid hour. But in a game where people poopsock raid spawns for days on end, what's an hour to divy up the loots.

Yeah too bad the majority of the loots on eq1 are no-drop, and have to be looted in a timely manner. This would be nice if guilds could do this here.

[Dantel]

I hate that system. It encourages people to be lazy and not upgrade their gear. I can either link silver chitin wristbands or I could just keep using hero bracers until my skyshrine Bracer drops. Might as well be lazy so I look like I need the upgrade more.


Afaik none of that happened. Maybe somewhat, but if you're killing all of the top mobs it doesn't really matter. You get the best in slot for your gear, and you're done for that slot. What are you going to wear cloth arms 2 raids in a row when you've won the BiS arm on the first raid? Of course not.

It was a good way to get new players up to raid level.

I've seen less people wearing garbage gear on a raid than I've seen loot officers play favorites at the expense of their raid force.

[Ravager]

Frankly, I find point systems fairer than random. Putting everyone on an equal footing is inherently biased.
All things being equal is pretty much the textbook definition of unbiased.

[Salahdin]

Loot council = always gets corrupted, gratz officer pals

DKP = gratz the jobless nerds on all top loot coz ur ra is 97.99%. Also gratz people just showing up for +1dkp ans barely helping. It doesnt reward people who genuinely input.

/random = it doesnt have any distinguishment between wheter you are on your first raid as a Ranger or a Raiding Cleric when that Rile drops.

Basically all systems bone someone and the only way not to get boned is to not raid.

Just like in 1999/2000 if you dont got the time to compete with the nerds you will never win the raiding scene.

[Swish]

Europa used to have a system of...

1. Mains
2. Alts
3. Trialists

Simple as that, if a main needed it, nobody's alt was getting it, and downhill from there. Got tricky if someone got asked to play their cleric due to a shortage, but there's no perfect system.

The problem became newly passed applicants mains were pushing out people's alts from ever getting any loot (think warrior planar pieces or similar)...so with a lot of thought a DKP system was introduced.

[jarlerop]

I'm in Clue and love the /random. It rewards those with high attendance since they random for more loot, but you also have an equal shot if you dont raid much. It's the most fair system i can think of for everyone.

[Jimjam]

I think something to consider is the distribution needs to be fair to the guild as well as fair to the individual players.

Is the guild going to be better off having one player gearing up a bazillion dps alts (only one of which can be online at a time), or will it be better of with a bazillion people gearing up their dps main?

[radda]

Dice don't discriminate.

Electronics do have patterns You know

[Tarskin]

Europa used to have a system of...

1. Mains
2. Alts
3. Trialists

Simple as that, if a main needed it, nobody's alt was getting it, and downhill from there. Got tricky if someone got asked to play their cleric due to a shortage, but there's no perfect system.

The problem became newly passed applicants mains were pushing out people's alts from ever getting any loot (think warrior planar pieces or similar)...so with a lot of thought a DKP system was introduced.

We still partially use the Mains > Alts > Trialist rule. For example, a main can bid all the dkp he wants. Any (alt) char below 55 (unless it's a main) can never outbid a main, but if the alt is 55 or higher they can bid as if they were a main (to still get gear for raiding/useful alts). Lastly, trialists can never bid more than 1 dkp on anything.

[Ravager]

Electronics do have patterns You know
Of course in the truest sense of the word in a world governed by physical laws there is no such thing as random, but until you point me to an algorithm that will predict the outcome of the /random feature more often than average chance consistently, I'll continue to treat the outcomes as random, as is the practical thing to do.

[Cecily]

Lineage II communism was my favorite. 100% of crafting resources given to Clan Bank by everyone and then clan upgrades everyone over time. With everyone contributing, new gear was made daily that would take an individual weeks or months to try on their own.

Probably could be implemented similarly in EQ with membership dues.

[Lhancelot]

Lineage II communism was my favorite. 100% of crafting resources given to Clan Bank by everyone and then clan upgrades everyone over time. With everyone contributing, new gear was made daily that would take an individual weeks or months to try on their own.

Probably could be implemented similarly in EQ with membership dues.

DaP did something similar to this whereas they leveled a tailor to max with members providing the resources for one character to be developed. They also have a rezzing cleric to use by trusted officers.

Unfairly, DaP is always thought of as some sort of evil corporation holding the servers porting system down with a thumb.

In reality they are quite the opposite, inviting all members of the P99 community to drink from the DaP well, not just guild members either. This is apparent by their community service of porting they provide for ALL players of the P99 community!

More guilds should follow the lead of DaP, their members would be much happier working together to build one another up as DaP does.

Internally, DaP are spiritually free, and connected to one another unlike any other guild on P99.

Why, you may ask? It's easy to answer this; The guild lacks any competitive drive between one another, instead the members help eachother by telling when someone needs a port, or someone needs help on a CR, etc.

In DaP, it's all about HELPING one another, AND helping those who are not in the guild, yet are requesting assistance from the noble knights of DaP.

Instead it seems the majority of members in raid guilds work to inadvertently tear eachother down by gobbling up all the pixels for themselves so no others can get them.

It's no wonder such a negative vibe exists in raid guilds, how could it be any different?

In essence this only weakens the guild overall, particularly in the spiritual sense, strengthening only a select coterie of players who are blessed with pixels in that guild due to nefarious methods of attaining them.

This alone breeds envy and animosity throughout the raid guild, particularly in the ranks of the "fringe" players of the raid guild. Sadly, the "fringe" players view this system as the only one availlble, and the need to get uber pixels erases any sense of dignity they might have once had. At this point it's safe to say that they have started "drinking the koolaid".

I guess that's all that is needed though.

As long as a core group of 6-10 super-nerds are running around Norrath in uber-pixels and have a zerg of 50-70 other players to follow their instructions, that makes for a "successful" raid guild on P99.

[myriverse]

All things being equal is pretty much the textbook definition of unbiased.
Not true. All things being equal is a bias towards a false equality. It benefits those who don't contribute as much over those that contribute a lot.

[Vallanor]

No system is perfect, but DKP bidding seems the most popular because it boils it down to a simple currency game. The more you raid, the more DKP you have to spend. The more you want something, the more you'll be willing to spend, and the more likely you'll win the item. Active players win more things, as they should, but if they want something less than someone else, they won't win it.

It's tough for DKP to account for varying levels of contribution at a given raid event though, which is probably its biggest weakness. You pretty much earn DKP just by showing up.

The problem with /random, in my opinion, is there's no incentive for people to attend raids that aren't likely to drop something they can use. The guy who only shows up to Vindi raids because he wants the BP really badly is just as likely to win it as the guy who attends everything regardless of whether it truly benefits him personally.

So /random isn't exactly unbiased. It's actually biased toward selfish people who pick and choose which raids to attend based on the potential drops.

[Ravager]

Not true. All things being equal is a bias towards a false equality. It benefits those who don't contribute as much over those that contribute a lot.
/random does this naturally. More rolls = more wins. Adding weight to the dice is what bias is, it artificially favors a particular outcome. Guy shows up to more raids, on average, he's going to win more rolls so he's going to be awarded more for the more work put in. It's easy, it's fair. Guy farms DKP the same way other people farm platinum and now you've go someone deciding which rolls count and it's going to skew more heavily in favor to the DKP farmer than it otherwise would have. That's bias.

What you are saying is that someone who puts in more time in raids deserves more loot, but when you put the thumb on the scale like that, you are disproportionately favoring one outcome over another. The 80% attendance people acquire more than 80% of the loot, the 20% attenders, (who tend to make up 80% of the raid) get less than 20% of the loot. /random everything and the numbers work themselves out over time. Yes there are streaks, but spread it out over a year and it's more even handed than any DKP or Loot Council you can devise and it has the added bonus of giving everyone incentive to show up for raids

Does a person who spends 8 hours a day for a week at the sarnak fort deserve Hidden Bracer more than the guy who just strolls in and gets one immediately by luck alone? I'm sure both will recall times when they got incredibly lucky on an immediate drop and incredibly unlucky on a camp that took days to do. It's the same for the dice. I won two RBG's in pickup groups in a weekend, but lost out on Heiro at least twice with a 99. But for the time I put in Seb, I got a reasonable amount of loot. It's the exact same with raids. Show up to the same raids every week for 52 weeks a year and you're going to get your share of picks with winning rolls.

Besides, there's nothing stopping someone from trading for rolls if they want an edge. They can outright buy a roll, promise to give someone a roll for a particular item if they give you a particular roll for a different item, etc. But in the end it still gives Joe Warmbody, who is every bit as important to making the raid work as 80% attendance DKP Jim a fair shake. It'd certainly do a lot to alleviate the turnover most raiding guilds face

[Cecily]

Random is how casuals on live discussing items they'll never see distributed items 15 years ago. It's not an acceptable loot distribution method for any entity that actually gets loot to distribute.

[Ravager]

So /random isn't exactly unbiased. It's actually biased toward selfish people who pick and choose which raids to attend based on the potential drops.
But they still get less loot because they're not winning any from the other raids.

Besides, nothing is stopping a guild from /guildremove of people who do this.

[Ravager]

Random is how casuals on live discussing items they'll never see distributed items 15 years ago. It's not an acceptable loot distribution method for any entity that actually gets loot to distribute.
Not acceptable to you maybe. But that's why you get to choose your guilds. /random is more fair. Period. Whether it's preferable is a different argument entirely.

[Vallanor]

But they still get less loot because they're not winning any from the other raids.

If items dropped for every class at every raid, /random would work out over the long run. I agree with that. It actually seems like a decent system for Kael arena raids and planar runs where there's usually a little something for everyone.

However, classic EQ does not work that way once you start killing major targets with limited loot tables. The guy who attends everything actually wins on average less per raid than the guy who only attends raids with the potential to drop an item he can use.

For example, the warrior who attends equal numbers of Velketor and Vindi raids wins half as much "per capita" as the warrior who only attends Vindi raids. Since Velketor only drops caster items, he has no opportunity to join in the /random for that raid.

[Ravager]

If items dropped for every class at every raid, /random would work out over the long run. I agree with that. It actually seems like a decent system for Kael arena raids and planar runs where there's usually a little something for everyone.

However, classic EQ does not work that way once you start killing major targets with limited loot tables. The guy who attends everything actually wins on average less per raid than the guy who only attends raids with the potential to drop an item he can use.

For example, the warrior who attends equal numbers of Velketor and Vindi raids wins half as much "per capita" as the warrior who only attends Vindi raids. Since Velketor only drops caster items, he has no opportunity to join in the /random for that raid.
The caster has incentive to show up for melee drops because if he doesn't, the melee don't have incentive to show up for caster drops. Quid Pro Quo. If someone doesn't hold up their end of the bargain and blatantly skips raids, there's no reason to leave them guilded. DKP guilds have the same problem I'd guess, since even with the incentive of DKP many have minimum raid attendance requirements. A little leadership and sense of community goes a long way to eliminating this problem.

[Vallanor]

The caster has incentive to show up for melee drops because if he doesn't, the melee don't have incentive to show up for caster drops. Quid Pro Quo. If someone doesn't hold up their end of the bargain and blatantly skips raids, there's no reason to leave them guilded. DKP guilds have the same problem I'd guess, since even with the incentive of DKP many have minimum raid attendance requirements. A little leadership and sense of community goes a long way to eliminating this problem.

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. I'm just pointing out that a straight /random system doesn't ensure equal outcomes for everyone in the long run with classic EQ loot tables. People can game the system to produce better results for themselves, much like they can in other loot systems. It just incentivizes a different set of behaviors than a DKP or loot council set-up.

[Ravager]

I don't disagree with anything you've written here. I'm just pointing out that a straight /random system doesn't ensure equal outcomes for everyone in the long run with classic EQ loot tables. People can game the system to produce better results for themselves, much like they can in other loot systems. It just incentivizes a different set of behaviors than a DKP or loot council set-up.
But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

[Lhancelot]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

This actually really makes a lot of sense imo. I just wonder though if in practice it's as successful as it sounds in theory. Kind of like communism, in theory it sounds awesome in reality that human element you speak of makes it not so good. It's really hard to weed out the human element, especially when you are dealing with humans. :p

[Lojik]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

So basically in a real world situation it's not perfectly fair, because it's a guarantee that not everyone is going to stick to this principle. The system needs to take into account the players in order to determine "fairness."

[Vallanor]

But this example is a case of the people not being fair, not the system. As soon as anyone deviates from the /random principle, of course its going to bias the outcomes. That's the whole argument. Personally, I'd prefer to start out with a system that's inherently unbiased and then deal with the human interference when it crops in. When you start with a system that's biased from the start, you're just making it that much harder to make it fair.

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.

[Swish]

I think what isn't being spoken about with any of these systems is guild loyalty. On the one hand nobody should trust a loot council to kit them out because we all know there's guilds running that shit out there who keep the inner circle tight and the hangers on won't get more than scraps.

On the other hand I think the casual guild approach of randoming everything just promotes seeing out the raid system til you win everything you need and then moving on or quitting.

DKP rewards loyalty and attendance but if you look at an old ladder with guild members who have been around 5 years, a new player is never EVER going to catch them and as such they'll probably be unable to do the key things like complete their epics ahead of the old timer's alts.

As a template I think I liked what Nocterma was doing last I looked. Small enough of a crew that everyone was genuinely friendly to each other and knew each other...and there (to my knowledge at least) was never any bad blood about pixels. Friends first, pixels second, that's the way to do it. Have a good time regardless of who gets what and you're on a recipe for success.

[thufir]

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.
The way bidding is handled, including what threshold you are allowed to bid at, is subjective. Most guilds have raid attendance requirements that prevent you from bidding if you are not at a certain raid attendance %.

That's decidedly worse than random for people who play occasionally.

I get that everyone has this "what have you done for me lately" attitude that prevents a more equitable DKP system but otherwise I don't get it. If you collected a bunch of DKP three months ago but had to do RL things for a summer and came back in the fall, why should you have to raid another month to get RA up before you cash it in? You still did all that work.

Just saying, it seems to work for everyone in those systems, but that's definitely a bias in favor of the hard core above and beyond just how much DKP you accumulate.

[Rygar]

The way bidding is handled, including what threshold you are allowed to bid at, is subjective. Most guilds have raid attendance requirements that prevent you from bidding if you are not at a certain raid attendance %.

That's decidedly worse than random for people who play occasionally.

I get that everyone has this "what have you done for me lately" attitude that prevents a more equitable DKP system but otherwise I don't get it. If you collected a bunch of DKP three months ago but had to do RL things for a summer and came back in the fall, why should you have to raid another month to get RA up before you cash it in? You still did all that work.

Just saying, it seems to work for everyone in those systems, but that's definitely a bias in favor of the hard core above and beyond just how much DKP you accumulate.

Just tell me that you wouldn't be salty that you've lost your 40th /rand roll in a row on an item and it went to a first timer. I know there is a whole fluffy love feeling behind the /rand, but eventually it leads to people getting upset and leaving. People in Clue have actually griped to me about this.

Our guild did this on live, and I was new and won an Indicolite BP in hate over a guy that was basically an officer in our guild and built it from the ground up. He eventually left and we adopted a loot council / linking system until the guild disbanded. I should have been the bigger man and passed that item to him, but overcoming greed is tough in a digital pixel world.

To boil it down, /Rand systems are the welfare of EQ, Loot Council is run by Democrats, DKP by Republicans.

[Swish]

Just tell me that you wouldn't be salty that you've lost your 40th /rand roll in a row on an item and it went to a first timer. I know there is a whole fluffy love feeling behind the /rand, but eventually it leads to people getting upset and leaving. People in Clue have actually griped to me about this.

Warrior/mage/etc epics decided on a random? I dunno folks...

[Lhancelot]

Warrior/mage/etc epics decided on a random? I dunno folks...

I was under the impression that when guilds who used /ran on raid loots did epic raids for members specifically, the member was granted the item they needed.

[thufir]

Just tell me that you wouldn't be salty that you've lost your 40th /rand roll in a row on an item and it went to a first timer. I know there is a whole fluffy love feeling behind the /rand, but eventually it leads to people getting upset and leaving. People in Clue have actually griped to me about this.

Our guild did this on live, and I was new and won an Indicolite BP in hate over a guy that was basically an officer in our guild and built it from the ground up. He eventually left and we adopted a loot council / linking system until the guild disbanded. I should have been the bigger man and passed that item to him, but overcoming greed is tough in a digital pixel world.

To boil it down, /Rand systems are the welfare of EQ, Loot Council is run by Democrats, DKP by Republicans.
sure, sometimes it can suck. and occasionally even clue will just say "this BP goes to person X" because they're part of their core team or whatever. so there's always some bones thrown to the people who line up to attend every day.

that having been said, it's not like DKP with RA doesn't get people upset and leaving either. they're just people who aren't hard core people, definitionally, and raiders generally lean towards keeping hard core people happy. /random doesn't keep hard core people happy, so a lot of guilds don't use it.

that's all it is, not some weird welfare/democrat/republican dichotomy like how you set it out.

[Ravager]

Just tell me that you wouldn't be salty that you've lost your 40th /rand roll in a row on an item and it went to a first timer. I know there is a whole fluffy love feeling behind the /rand, but eventually it leads to people getting upset and leaving. People in Clue have actually griped to me about this.

People get salty when they lose DKP bids too. There's no one system that's going to make everyone happy. At least /random is open and transparent.

It's too bad it's more trouble than it's worth to look at the numbers of all of the systems, such as raid attendance % versus loot earned %, member turnover rate, etc.

[Expediency]

The way bidding is handled, including what threshold you are allowed to bid at, is subjective. Most guilds have raid attendance requirements that prevent you from bidding if you are not at a certain raid attendance %.

That's decidedly worse than random for people who play occasionally.


Thats like saying if I work 30 hours one week I cant spend the money I earned because I didnt work full time that week. In AG we have no such requirement.

One big problem with random: unless its all greed random, some classes have zero incentive to visit certain zones, since nothing will drop for them.

[Ravager]

Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by unbiased. I don't consider a DKP system inherently biased. You earn a DKP currency by attending raids and you spend that DKP as you see fit. Those who raid more have more currency to spend, but in the long run everyone should get an amount of loot equivalent to their raiding input. If everyone behaved in an ideal manner, there's no reason this system shouldn't divy up loot just as efficiently as a /random system.

When I think of "bias" I think of subjectivity. DKP systems are not subjective. You seem to have a different definition.
What I mean by unbiased is it doesn't favor one particular outcome over another. If you go into a raid with Johnny DKP, Billy Casual Scum and Every Evening Eddie and it's /random, on any particular raid it's not going to favor one raider from the next, as it shouldn't because everyone has an equal contribution to making that particular raid happen. But over time, the Johnny DKP's are going to accrue more loot relative to others, because they're rolling more. On average it'll balance out that the people who show up to say 80% of the raids are going to be sharing 80% of the loot and the 20%ers 20%. The people who work more have more to show for it.

If you go DKP, the outcome of who gets loot is strongly skewed to Johnny DKP. Every Evening Eddie has a little favor, Billy Casual Scum may as well not even bother. Now say Billy Casual Scum rides it out and saves his DKP for that one special item he really, really wants, he's still at a horrible disadvantage as other loot that he might otherwise buy is going to the Johnny DKP's of the guild because he can't afford to spend his points and bid on it because he needs every point he can get for the one thing he wants and at the end of the day it's still no guarantee he won't be outbid. The loot goes disproportionately to the DKP farmers.

[thufir]

Thats like saying if I work 30 hours one week I cant spend the money I earned because I didnt work full time that week. In AG we have no such requirement.

and +1 to AG for not having it. the RA requirement is the biggest silliness with DKP systems. it's just an extra kick in the pants to people who have real lives or other interests.

One big problem with random: unless its all greed random, some classes have zero incentive to visit certain zones, since nothing will drop for them.

very true, and part of why DKP started being a thing in the first place.

[Swish]

People get salty when they lose DKP bids too. There's no one system that's going to make everyone happy. At least /random is open and transparent.

It's too bad it's more trouble than it's worth to look at the numbers of all of the systems, such as raid attendance % versus loot earned %, member turnover rate, etc.

Blind dkp bidding should be a thing, best way of doing it. Easy to say "1" or "2" and know you're getting it for next to nothing, but if you value it you might go higher :p

I know for a fact there were a couple of greedy bastards in Europa who in Sky would discourage people from the same class bidding on items. The officers didn't like it, I didn't like it... how dare someone send tells to their class brothers and say "hey dude, I REALLY need this, i've been after it for months - would you mind not bidding?". Wasn't a widespread thing but it did go on.

Hi Patoso, did you gear your 12 characters yet? :o

[Lhancelot]

I know for a fact there were a couple of greedy bastards in Europa who in Sky would discourage people from the same class bidding on items. The officers didn't like it, I didn't like it... how dare someone send tells to their class brothers and say "hey dude, I REALLY need this, i've been after it for months - would you mind not bidding?". Wasn't a widespread thing but it did go on.


This is 100% what I seen in another raid guild on this server regarding /ran rolls on some bottom tier raid quest items/drops. Had it personally happen to me. Either tells wanting to buy my winning roll, or tells discouraging me from rolling on an item for some made up reason by the player trying to explain why I shouldn't be rolling on an item and how they needed it.

After a few circumstances like this, all in one day I then realized how fake some of these guys were. All happy and "GRATS DUDE!!!!! YAY!!!!" in /gu chat but conniving in tells, trying to get more pixels at the detriment of others who fairly won something.

I just get really annoyed with this kind of behavior, and what makes it more ridiculous is these greedy dicks have an army of personal alts that walk around with more gear than the mains of the fringe players who they try to take gears away from.

It aint worth it. Sacrificing dignity and a sense of gaming freedom along with having to suck off guild leadership for pixels is BS, along with all the behind the scenes drama that goes on in tells from these greedy pricks.

I am sure there are some decent raid guilds, I just never seen one yet on this server. At this point no matter how loot is handled, I think as people have pointed out there are pros and cons to all the different systems of loot management. There's just no perfect way to ensure that everyone is treated fairly and equally, but I do think the /ran idea is as close to it as possible.

[Expediency]

Blind dkp bidding should be a thing, best way of doing it. Easy to say "1" or "2" and know you're getting it for next to nothing, but if you value it you might go higher :p



Blind dkp bidding is how we do it in AG, winner pays second place +1.

[maskedmelon]

Blind dkp bidding is how we do it in AG, winner pays second place +1.

Oh, that kinda neat ^^

[Expediency]

Oh, that kinda neat ^^

Its great; our loot system is the best ive seen for casual players. I dont want to derail this thread but if anyone is interested in more info send me a tell or pm.

[Danth]

No system is perfect, but DKP bidding seems the most popular because it boils it down to a simple currency game. The more you raid, the more DKP you have to spend........The problem with /random, in my opinion, is there's no incentive for people to attend raids that aren't likely to drop something they can use.

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency. Likewise, trying to coerce people into showing up for events they don't want to go to strikes me as a lousy way to run something that's supposed to be fun.

I'll stick with guilds that /random or merit things out and keep the game--a game. Nothing against folks who're okay with the currency system, but it isn't for me.

Danth

[Swish]

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency...

At this point its worth taking a step back and remembering that it's good to have friends in your guild, to enjoy the time you play with them while raiding and so on. If raiding feels like a chore, and you don't like talking to those people, perhaps consider moving guilds <3

[Vallanor]

You want to pay me for showing up for your guild event or put myself on-call for your guild, you better be paying me dollars, not pixels. I'm not turning my hobby time into a really lousy second job just for pixel currency. Likewise, trying to coerce people into showing up for events they don't want to go to strikes me as a lousy way to run something that's supposed to be fun.

I'll stick with guilds that /random or merit things out and keep the game--a game. Nothing against folks who're okay with the currency system, but it isn't for me.

Danth

Who's asking you to turn raiding into a job? DKP encourages participation whether or not your class benefits from an activity. It doesn't *require* participation at anything. Come raid when you feel like raiding. Don't raid when you're busy. We have a ton of casual players in Azure Guard who raid very infrequently and they still get loot. Less than highly active players, but enough to keep everyone more or less happy. This is the same thing /random is supposed to do, right?

I feel like you're conflating the concept of DKP with the kinds of hardcore guilds that require a huge raid percentage just to spend their DKP or require attendance when online. Those two things need not go hand in hand, and in Azure Guard's case, do not.

[Lhancelot]

We have a ton of casual players in Azure Guard who raid very infrequently and they still get loot. Less than highly active players, but enough to keep everyone more or less happy.

I realize your statement is purely subjective here, but let me ask you this. If you use a DKP system, and you earm DKP by attending raids, how is a "casual" going to "still get loot"?

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other. I think the latter part is more accurate regarding the casuals in your guild. They are probably less happy, while the frequent warm bodies that attend raids constantly racking up DKP are more happy.

It sounds like you run a structured system for loot and it's probably very popular with you and your guild members but without picking it apart I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

[Joyelle]

I feel like you're conflating the concept of DKP with the kinds of hardcore guilds that require a huge raid percentage just to spend their DKP or require attendance when online. Those two things need not go hand in hand, and in Azure Guard's case, do not.

I don't think any of the "hardcore" guilds on p99 require a "huge" raid percentage (unless you mean Donald Trump's definition of huge) to bid on loot with their DKP systems.

Awakened requires 15% for the absolute top tier items and anyone with less than that bids as a second main. I believe AM uses 20% for their benchmark and I don't know if they have any kind of tier system, but even 20% is very easy to achieve without playing neckbeard amounts of hours because of how often we raid. It's probably a little more time than what your typical CSG raider puts in, but it's definitely not as crazy as you make it out to be. Not everyone in these guilds are basement-dwelling virgins, most of us actually do have jobs and families. There are some that make you wonder though...

[Vallanor]

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other.

I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

They are "more or less" happy because they are individuals with varying goals and I don't want to speak for everyone. We don't have a lot of complaints about the loot system.

Yes, there are flaws with our system as there are with every loot system, including /random. That's been stated numerous times in this thread.

I guess I'm not sure what else I can contribute to this thread. If you like the idea that everyone at a given raid is just as likely to win Item X regardless of their previous contributions, we've got guilds for that. If you like the idea of being rewarded for helping out even when an event doesn't benefit you personally, there are other guilds for that.

No system is going to be perfect. I'm just trying to explain how a DKP system can accommodate lots of different play styles efficiently. I'm not sure I'm doing a very good job.

[Rygar]

I realize your statement is purely subjective here, but let me ask you this. If you use a DKP system, and you earm DKP by attending raids, how is a "casual" going to "still get loot"?

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other. I think the latter part is more accurate regarding the casuals in your guild. They are probably less happy, while the frequent warm bodies that attend raids constantly racking up DKP are more happy.

It sounds like you run a structured system for loot and it's probably very popular with you and your guild members but without picking it apart I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.


I consider myself a casual raider, I want to get myself some full SS gear from HoT is basically the extent of what I'm after. So I earn my DKP very slowly, the hard core folks aren't bidding on HoT drops because they probably have it all. I gradually build up enough points to beat newer members and win an item. I'm not sprinting the raid scene by any means.

Since my son we born 6 months ago I can raid like once a month, with no % raid attendance required, AG is perfect for me.

[icedwards]

I realize your statement is purely subjective here, but let me ask you this. If you use a DKP system, and you earm DKP by attending raids, how is a "casual" going to "still get loot"?

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other. I think the latter part is more accurate regarding the casuals in your guild. They are probably less happy, while the frequent warm bodies that attend raids constantly racking up DKP are more happy.

It sounds like you run a structured system for loot and it's probably very popular with you and your guild members but without picking it apart I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

Are you seriously complaining that a raider who shows up x2 more than a casual raider gets geared twice as fast?

[Lhancelot]

Are you seriously complaining that a raider who shows up x2 more than a casual raider gets geared twice as fast?

That's not exactly what I wrote... I don't have the energy to go into it deeper tbh. He responded to my post regarding what I actually wrote, though.

[Expediency]

I realize your statement is purely subjective here, but let me ask you this. If you use a DKP system, and you earm DKP by attending raids, how is a "casual" going to "still get loot"?

If those casuals joined your guild for raiding, exactly how are they "more or less happy"? It has to be one or the other. I think the latter part is more accurate regarding the casuals in your guild. They are probably less happy, while the frequent warm bodies that attend raids constantly racking up DKP are more happy.

It sounds like you run a structured system for loot and it's probably very popular with you and your guild members but without picking it apart I can see faults and flaws even in your looting system.

Its pretty easy.

Say the guild pays out 5dkp an hour. Player X raids 10 times a month, he has 50 dkp. Player Y raids 20 times a month, he has 100.

Player X can either bid on loot that is typically awarded for less dkp or can bank his dkp at half the rate of player Y to get the top items.

If player Z comes in and raids 50 times a month and gets 250dkp, he obviously gets more loot.

None of these players are locked out of the top items, they just all must wait different times to be able to win them based on their play schedules.

Occasionally all guilds run across people who want something for nothing. If you're one of those people a dkp system probably isnt for you. /random really does not benefit people who have no items at that encounter and they have no incentive to show up to them. For instance, my druid has every single sky quest item that I want on that character. If I was to join your guild, why would I ever got to sky to help if I earn no points and stand to get no loot? In a dkp setup I'm awarded for bringing my geared 60 druid to help, in a /random situation I'm only doing it because I enjoy the raid.

[Danth]

Who's asking you to turn raiding into a job?

If you're getting paid currency as compensation for performing a task then you're working a job by definition. Heck, most of the guilds that use currency systems, including yours, have some form of application process too! As such, I require dollars as my compensation, not "DKP" or whatever you call your company scrip.

No system's perfect. They all have faults. DKP inherently turns a guild into a really rotten employer. Loot council's only as good as the council running it; some are better than others. I've seen both good and bad councils on P1999. /Random works great for cases where items drop relatively often (halls of testing or plane of growth armor, etc) but can fail spectacularly in cases where a guild might obtain some specific item only once in a blue moon. Without worrying about specific items, one general reality tends to ring true: If you want to get your loot sooner, play more.

EDIT:
why would I ever got to sky to help if I earn no points and stand to get no loot?

You show up because you like that zone. No other motivation is necessary. If you don't like the content, why would you want to be coerced into spending your hobby time doing something you dislike?

Danth

[Lhancelot]

Its pretty easy.

Say the guild pays out 5dkp an hour. Player X raids 10 times a month, he has 50 dkp. Player Y raids 20 times a month, he has 100.

Player X can either bid on loot that is typically awarded for less dkp or can bank his dkp at half the rate of player Y to get the top items.

If player Z comes in and raids 50 times a month and gets 250dkp, he obviously gets more loot.

Occasionally all guilds run across people who want something for nothing. If you're one of those people a dkp system probably isnt for you. /random really does not benefit people who have no items at that encounter and they have no incentive to show up to them.

I understand the theory here and there is some truth to it. However you are glossing over the bad aspects of your DKP system and pointing out only the good.

To keep saying there's no incentive for players to do a raid where no loot for them will drop isn't completely true. There are actually people who have other motivations besides getting loot.

Believe it or not, some people like helping others. Some people like to be in a guild that believes in building their entire guild up so the force is strong as a whole and not just the ones who have 15 hours a day where they can sit and soak up all the DKP offered by your type of raid guild.

Just because someone goes to 80% of the raids doesn't indicate how much they contribute on those raids, so the statement that "oh, well if someone is going to 80% of the raids they deserve twice as much as the guy that only goes to 40%!" This is one fault of the DKP sponge system, sponges can go and hump raid mobs every day all week, and then have tons of DKP and not contribute hardly at all to the raids.

I am just saying there are other incentives for people to take part in raids other than getting their own loots. Greed is a driving force and loot is a big incentive for many, but not all.

[Expediency]

If you're getting paid currency as compensation for performing a task then you're working a job by definition. Heck, most of the guilds that use currency systems, including yours, have some form of application process too! As such, I require dollars as my compensation, not "DKP" or whatever you call your company scrip.


You show up because you like that zone. No other motivation is necessary. If you don't like the content, why would you want to be coerced into spending your hobby time doing something you dislike?

Danth

I'm convinced that you are trolling. Coerced? This is a social game. I take my character to sky to help someone get what they want, they help me kill a dragon to get what I want. Either we can have a huge and complex system of "who owes who a favor"barter system or else we can institute a currency to help solve that problem. Its very elegant if you ask me, I cant speak for others but I have never seen a better loot system in an MMO than the one we're using. I flat out dont trust loot council guilds and /random has so many obvious pitfalls that unless the randoms are total greed based that is a foolish system.

[Expediency]

Believe it or not, some people like helping others. Some people like to be in a guild that believes in building their entire guild up so the force is strong as a whole and not just the ones who have 15 hours a day where they can sit and soak up all the DKP offered by your type of raid guild.

My time is valuable to me, this just isnt realistic. We have a few players that have very high raid attendance, why should they sit around and wait for the really casual guy to build up? Thats a recipe for your top people leaving for greener pastures.

Just because someone goes to 80% of the raids doesn't indicate how much they contribute on those raids, so the statement that "oh, well if someone is going to 80% of the raids they deserve twice as much as the guy that only goes to 40%!" This is one fault of the DKP sponge system, sponges can go and hump raid mobs every day all week, and then have tons of DKP and not contribute hardly at all to the raids.

I am just saying there are other incentives for people to take part in raids other than getting their own loots. Greed is a driving force and loot is a big incentive for many, but not all.

We keep logs of raids and check them afterwards for activity. If someone is afk for long periods of time they do not get credit for that hour of raiding. This is common in raiding guilds. If you stand around soaking exp, you WILL get called out.

[Rygar]

I understand the theory here and there is some truth to it. However you are glossing over the bad aspects of your DKP system and pointing out only the good.

To keep saying there's no incentive for players to do a raid where no loot for them will drop isn't completely true. There are actually people who have other motivations besides getting loot.

Believe it or not, some people like helping others. Some people like to be in a guild that believes in building their entire guild up so the force is strong as a whole and not just the ones who have 15 hours a day where they can sit and soak up all the DKP offered by your type of raid guild.

Just because someone goes to 80% of the raids doesn't indicate how much they contribute on those raids, so the statement that "oh, well if someone is going to 80% of the raids they deserve twice as much as the guy that only goes to 40%!" This is one fault of the DKP sponge system, sponges can go and hump raid mobs every day all week, and then have tons of DKP and not contribute hardly at all to the raids.

I am just saying there are other incentives for people to take part in raids other than getting their own loots. Greed is a driving force and loot is a big incentive for many, but not all.

AG routinely has non-DKP event raids for epics and hard quest mobs and the like. I believe when Expediency was saying, "why would I show up if /rand was the only way to get loot and I have everything from that zone" was just showing in general what the problems with a /rand system is. You'll have some folks that contribute to help out of course, but you'll have folks that may lose incentive so raid attendance may not be as strong. DKP is a good incentive when there is no loot at stake in a current raid because you can build up points for future raids.

I encourage you not to snip out a statement and point out everything wrong with that statement on its own, look for the context.

[maskedmelon]

To a guild, someone who attends 80% of raids is more valuable than someone who attends 40%, because if everyone only attends 40%, your roster needs to be twice as large to field the same number of people per raid. You are also then retarding the guild's progress by spreading that loot across more individuals, so you effectively require twice as many people to advance at half the rate. Ultimately, this sort of setup discourages camaraderie because players do not feel that their efforts are appreciated and that will cause them to leave eventually.

I don't have 16 hours a day to track mobs. I am not even able to play every day. But I do not discount the value that those who are able to play 16hours a day bring to their guilds. Whatever their reasons, without them there would be no FTEs, no bat phones, no kills, no loot.

[Lhancelot]

To a guild, someone who attends 80% of raids is more valuable than someone who attends 40%, because if everyone only attends 40%, your roster needs to be twice as large to field the same number of people per raid. You are also then retarding the guild's progress by spreading that loot across more individuals, so you effectively require twice as many people to advance at half the rate. Ultimately, this sort of setup discourages camaraderie because players do not feel that their efforts are appreciated and that will cause them to leave eventually.

I don't have 16 hours a day to track mobs. I am not even able to play every day. But I do not discount the value that those who are able to play 16hours a day bring to their guilds. Whatever their reasons, without them there would be no FTEs, no bat phones, no kills, no loot.

Amount of time played has nothing to do with what the player contributes. Just because they soak up tons of DKP does not prove they are a contributing cog in the raid guild.

I am not saying that it's not beneficial to have very active players who do a large portion of the work on raids. But to pretend that all members that have high attendance are useful, necessary members that only help to create a more positive, cameraderie in a guild seems a bit far fetched and idealistic.

[Expediency]

Amount of time played has nothing to do with what the player contributes. Just because they soak up tons of DKP does not prove they are a contributing cog in the raid guild.

I am not saying that it's not beneficial to have very active players who do a large portion of the work on raids. But to pretend that all members that have high attendance are useful, necessary members that only help to create a more positive, cameraderie in a guild seems a bit far fetched and idealistic.

Its pretty obvious when someone isnt pulling their weight. If you're just standing around in HoT for an hour, we can tell.


We keep logs of raids and check them afterwards for activity. If someone is afk for long periods of time they do not get credit for that hour of raiding. This is common in raiding guilds. If you stand around soaking exp, you WILL get called out.

[thufir]

I don't have 16 hours a day to track mobs. I am not even able to play every day. But I do not discount the value that those who are able to play 16hours a day bring to their guilds. Whatever their reasons, without them there would be no FTEs, no bat phones, no kills, no loot.
this is not precisely true

if we were *entirely* without them, everyone would still get loot

only the existence of these people on the server requires that your guild have them yourself

[Expediency]

To a guild, someone who attends 80% of raids is more valuable than someone who attends 40%, because if everyone only attends 40%, your roster needs to be twice as large to field the same number of people per raid. You are also then retarding the guild's progress by spreading that loot across more individuals, so you effectively require twice as many people to advance at half the rate. Ultimately, this sort of setup discourages camaraderie because players do not feel that their efforts are appreciated and that will cause them to leave eventually.


This is absolutely true. We have about 10-20 players who play very regularly, log in for most batphones, and have huge DKP totals. These people can be counted on. Its only fair that when the best stuff drops, they have the points to spend on it. Why give it to someone who only shows up once a week? Everyone benefits when the most active players have the best stuff, if fairly earned. If you only play once a week and want some top velious dragon loot, you can absolutely get it, but you are going to have to wait a lot longer than the guy helping kill three mobs a day.

There's also a trickle down effect, our top players have most everything they want except for the top dragon items, so when mid tier dragon items drop (that 95% of the server would love to have) those items are obtainable by the more casual members, or even alts.

[Danth]

We keep logs of raids and check them afterwards for activity. If someone is afk for long periods of time they do not get credit for that hour of raiding.

That other guy was trying to insist that your guild's not effectively a job....meanwhile you're talking about people being monitored to ensure a certain level of production, about them being penalized for not meeting it, about maintaining logs of guildmates' actions, and about people being reliable for putting themselves on-call 24/7. All this from a guild that calls itself "casual?" You folks have a vastly different notion of "casual" than I have!

Danth

[Lhancelot]

This is absolutely true. We have about 10-20 players who play very regularly, log in for most batphones, and have huge DKP totals. These people can be counted on. Its only fair that when the best stuff drops, they have the points to spend on it.

So, is this the "coterie" group of players that one guy posted about, who he claimed that in AG got all the loots while everyone else got scraps?

[maskedmelon]

Amount of time played has nothing to do with what the player contributes. Just because they soak up tons of DKP does not prove they are a contributing cog in the raid guild.

I am not saying that it's not beneficial to have very active players who do a large portion of the work on raids. But to pretend that all members that have high attendance are useful, necessary members that only help to create a more positive, cameraderie in a guild seems a bit far fetched and idealistic.

None of the content in EQ is particularly challenging and beyond tracking or FTE'ing simply participating in the raid is the only other way to contribute. The single greatest challenge to any encounter is ensuring you've enough people to actually down the target. Outside of FTE/Tracking everyone is a "warm body" unless you are suggesting people actually just stand around afk and don't do anything? I can't say I've actually witnessed that, but I have seen people removed from lots for afk and more often people remove themselves from logs for afk. Either way it's a rarity.

What exactly do you mean by "warm body" Lhance? There is not a lot of opportunity for classes to demonstrate their prowess in raids. Every class can have their roles defined in 3-4 responsibilities at most. And none of them have any significant degree of difficulty to complete.

Group content is far more about innovation/reaction in EQ. Raid content is just about discipline.

[Expediency]

That other guy was trying to insist that your guild's not effectively a job....meanwhile you're talking about people being monitored to ensure a certain level of production, about them being penalized for not meeting it, about maintaining logs of guildmates' actions, and about people being reliable for putting themselves on-call 24/7. All this from a guild that calls itself "casual?" You folks have a vastly different notion of "casual" than I have!

Danth

God forbid we penalize people who stand around doing absolutely nothing. Please dont apply to our guild, we have seen players like you before and you're not what we're looking for. You are after welfare pixels. I'm finished responding to you until such time as you stop trolling or gain some common sense.

[Lhancelot]

This is absolutely true. We have about 10-20 players who play very regularly, log in for most batphones, and have huge DKP totals. These people can be counted on. Its only fair that when the best stuff drops, they have the points to spend on it.

I just want to know if this is the "coterie" group of players that one guy posted about, who he claimed that in AG got all the loots while everyone else got scraps... Just curious. Can you confirm?

[Expediency]

I just want to know if this is the "coterie" group of players that one guy posted about, who he claimed that in AG got all the loots while everyone else got scraps... Just curious. Can you confirm?

I have no idea what you're referring to. If someone comes to 3 encounters a day, and another player comes to 3 encounters a month, the guy who plays much more is going to get more loot in a dkp system. Thats justice imo and if you cant see that we'll have to agree to disagree, /random will run off top players and the application pages of the top guilds are filled with people from smaller guilds who are sick of stuff like that.

[Rygar]

That other guy was trying to insist that your guild's not effectively a job....meanwhile you're talking about people being monitored to ensure a certain level of production, about them being penalized for not meeting it, about maintaining logs of guildmates' actions, and about people being reliable for putting themselves on-call 24/7. All this from a guild that calls itself "casual?" You folks have a vastly different notion of "casual" than I have!

Danth

Compare AG to other top guilds and you will surely understand. We have some hardcore raiders no doubt and some checks and balances in place, but to say we aren't casual is ridiculous.

As I mention I can raid once a month, AG had not kicked me out. I work on tradeskills and other stuff during raids which aren't always my thing (RL requires me to take a lot of afks these days), I never have gotten any kind of warning. I have never been pressured to race, roll an alt that the guild needs or anything of the sort.

I understand your desire to stir the pot and attempt to point out hypocrisy, but your efforts are misplaced.

[Lhancelot]

What exactly do you mean by "warm body" Lhance? There is not a lot of opportunity for classes to demonstrate their prowess in raids. Every class can have their roles defined in 3-4 responsibilities at most. And none of them have any significant degree of difficulty to complete.


Hmm I disagree. I think most classes can show prowess when played by a very good player compared to when played by a lazy, subpar player.

You have valid points though, and all it boils down to is no looting system is perfect.

Not even the one in AG. :p

[RDawg816]

no looting system is perfect.

Not even the one in AG. :p
They aren't arguing this. They've even said as much.

[Ravager]

I have no idea what you're referring to. If someone comes to 3 encounters a day, and another player comes to 3 encounters a month, the guy who plays much more is going to get more loot in a dkp system. Thats justice imo and if you cant see that we'll have to agree to disagree, /random will run off top players and the application pages of the top guilds are filled with people from smaller guilds who are sick of stuff like that.
I'd wager the application pages of the top guilds are filled with people from smaller guilds who just want to see the content period. DKP probably isn't much of a factor in their decision, unless they are comparing their choices between guilds to which system gives them the best shot at getting loot the soonest.

[Danth]

God forbid we penalize people who stand around doing absolutely nothing. Please dont apply to our guild, we have seen players like you before and you're not what we're looking for. You are after welfare pixels. I'm finished responding to you until such time as you stop trolling or gain some common sense.

I see why you don't trust loot councils; you don't trust anyone. Guess what: I don't want your pixels. I haven't upgraded my character in roughly a year, and I don't care if he never receives an upgrade ever again. He's good enough to do the jobs I want him to do. I certainly ain't about to apply to your guild. Heck I wouldn't join *any* guild that requires applications and pays out monopoly money--too serious for my preference. Also, you seem rather hostile towards someone who has no particular beef with your guild--try not to fall into the trap of assuming anyone who isn't with you must be against you.

Compare AG to other top guilds and you will surely understand. We have some hardcore raiders no doubt and some checks and balances in place, but to say we aren't casual is ridiculous.

I regard Azure Guard not as casual, but as a fairly intensive raid guild that accepts keeping casual players on roster. There's a distinction, I think. I rate something like Kittens who say Meow or Clue as casual. I've nothing against Azure Guard--I've recommended it to numerous friends, actually--but I think it brands itself inaccurately, much as BDA did.

Danth

[maskedmelon]

Hmm I disagree. I think most classes can show prowess when played by a very good player compared to when played by a lazy, subpar player.

You have valid points though, and all it boils down to is no looting system is perfect.

Not even the one in AG. :p

You got an example Lhance of what you are thinking? I can go through and lost the roles of various classes, but probably easier if you can just point out an example of how an exceptional player differentiates themself from a shitty one in a raid encounter? I guess what I am saying is the bar is so damn low, I can't really imagine players being able to fail utterly and collect dkp lol^^

[Lhancelot]

You got an example Lhance of what you are thinking? I can go through and lost the roles of various classes, but probably easier if you can just point out an example of how an exceptional player differentiates themself from a shitty one in a raid encounter? I guess what I am saying is the bar is so damn low, I can't really imagine players being able to fail utterly and collect dkp lol^^

Well I can give simple examples I have seen just to give an idea. I seen necros that sit on raids never offering to twitch, not sure what they doing probably nuking or lifetapping mobs for fun. I seen bards that do nothing while other bards pull and kite raid mobs around. Just basic, simple things a class should do doesn't always get done by all players.

I think the larger the zerg, the more you get deadweight in a raid guild tbh. Nothing against players who like to play a little more "relaxed", but these type of players often are the ones that love to join a zerg raid guild, and collect DKP while doing the bare minimum while a core group does the majority of the work.

The funny thing is, the core group is fine with this, why? Because they also happen to get more pixels than the more relaxed, lazy players do. I suppose this is how it should be.

In my opinion, this DKP system caters equally to deadweight players as well as hardcore pixel fiends. The lazy ones get stuff without having to work for it, and the core players that work hardest and play the most get to have more control over how things operate and run.

Naturally the core players they also can argue that they deserve more stuffs because of the work they put in, and I suppose they are correct.

The problem is, this core group typically keeps the core as is, and any fringe players wanting to get into that core group either have to impress the core with mad skills, or kiss a lot of ass. Usually it's the latter.

I think this kind of setup works for some, while others who find the politics and favoritism of raid guilds distasteful want no part of it. Sadly it seems there's really no wonderful way to divvy up loot, and so with every system there are flaws.

[maskedmelon]

Well I can give simple examples I have seen just to give an idea. I seen necros that sit on raids never offering to twitch, not sure what they doing probably nuking or lifetapping mobs for fun. I seen bards that do nothing while other bards pull and kite raid mobs around. Just basic, simple things a class should do doesn't always get done by all players.

Interesting. I see where you are coming from. If you are in a guild running dkp when nobody knows what to do and worse yet, nobody tells them what to do and the. Awards them with dkp for sitting there, it could be a pretty frustrating situation.

Twitching & spot heals are those kind of low bar activities that I'm talking about ^^ If leadership isn't indicating which encounters require twitch though then that's on them. If melee need a heal they need to have a macro to ask for them if they aren't grouped.

Bard kiting doesn't really happen outside of pog or pof clears for CT and they are very short in the latter.





The problem is, this core group typically keeps the core as is, and any fringe players wanting to get into that core group either have to impress the core with mad skills, or kiss a lot of ass. Usually it's the latter.

I think this kind of setup works for some, while others who find the politics and favoritism of raid guilds distasteful want no part of it. Sadly it seems there's really no wonderful way to divvy up loot, and so with every system there are flaws.

With DKP though it does t matter whether any "core" group likes you or not. If you participate a lot, you get dkp and you get to spend it. Everyone has the same opportunity ^^


DKP is ultimately the middle ground between tending a guild's needs and tending players' needs. /random favors individuals to the detriment of the guild, while loot council favors the guild to the detriment of individuals. ^^