Question regarding camp rules

[Odeseus]

Me and a few guildmates were having this discussion. It is mostly hypothetical since none of us knew the exact answer.

Anyway, we were discussing the spell: summon corpse and how annoying it is to farm and how overpriced it can be. I personally have killed ishva a few times so the conversation moved to how early you'd have to show up at the ishva spawn point to actually be the first one there. The last time I did it, I showed up 6 hours before spawn and was first one there. Called up a few friends and PL'd them to keep me from going insane sitting there for 6 hours. Tried to do the same thing a few times later and people were already there.

Then we got into the discussion of what you actually have to do to "hold" the ishva camp. Those of us in the discussion were split pretty evenly. The first group said that all you have to do is be in the room. You can be invis or FD and do literally nothing (basically afk) in the room for hours and hours and have claim to it. Since there is no PH, you don't need to do anything at all to hold the camp.

The other group believed that you have to at the very least clear the other mob spawn in the ishva room to "hold" the camp. If for no other reason than to show that a) you have the ability to kill ishva when it pops b) you are not afk the entire time. This group reasoned that if someone was FD/invis and afk in ishva room "holding" the camp, they could come in and clear the area and would therefore have claim to the camp. I thought that this was would be kind of a dick move, but so is FDing at the camp and then going to take a nap (or whatever) and still "holding" the camp.

I'm wondering what the community thinks and if the GMs have any rules about this. If I'm simply stupid and missed a rule or post that clears this up, please just refer me to it and more or less ignore this thread.

[LevinJ]

This is very similar to Haddon (lvl25 mob pops in newb zone and perma farmed by lvl50's). There is nothing nearby remotely dangerous to a level 50 (maybe tough fight for ranger). Another mob on the same faction as haddon is immediately next to his spawn spot and will assist Haddon against people of his own level range but not against level 50's. Nobody kills that other mob or believes that it needs to be killed for Haddon to be "camped." Haddon is a 5.5 hour spawn with no PH.

[Extunarian]

This is a tough one and I think there should be some clarification in the rules. They do state that you need to respect the presence of anyone at the camp before you, but at the same time they do say AFK camping is frowned upon. Of course in this case they are talking about AFK'ing and letting your pet kill things for you, but I think it should be expanded to include spawns on long timers.

Just this last weekend I camped Hadden starting ~4 hours before he was due to spawn. Left my laptop in the living room and started doing stuff around the house, returning to the computer every 10-15 minutes to answer tells and click my peggy cloak to show that I wasn't taking a nap. I think this was fair to the people who were showing up and asking me if I was camping hadden, what the spawn timer was, etc.

I think that if you show up to a long spawn and someone is there, they should need to respond to you within 15-20 minutes or so to keep the camp. It isn't fair to park a character in the morning, leave the house, and then come back 7 hours and 55 minutes later to scoop up the kill, and you should expect to have your camp stolen in those circumstances.

[stonebeard22]

Just this last weekend I camped Hadden starting ~4 hours before he was due to spawn. Left my laptop in the living room and started doing stuff around the house, returning to the computer every 10-15 minutes to answer tells and click my peggy cloak to show that I wasn't taking a nap. I think this was fair to the people who were showing up and asking me if I was camping hadden, what the spawn timer was, etc.

I think that if you show up to a long spawn and someone is there, they should need to respond to you within 15-20 minutes or so to keep the camp. It isn't fair to park a character in the morning, leave the house, and then come back 7 hours and 55 minutes later to scoop up the kill, and you should expect to have your camp stolen in those circumstances.

I think you kind of hit it right on the head. Doing something show your actively checking your PC. Talking and responding to people every XX minutes. Etc.

In the good ole days I remember watching TV while camping stuff, and sometimes I would get wrapped up in a show then look back over to see the named spawn. =D

[Kassel]

but at the same time they do say AFK camping is frowned upon

"Afk camping" is when your pet kills mobs while you are afk. It is not what is being discussed in this thread. I understand the terminoligy can be confusing, but the GMs have confirmed that having your pet kill mobs while you afk is what is being refered to in the "camps defined" thread.

They have also said you can be AFK while camping and it is with in the rules. The Paw ring in befallen was used as an example. If you are sitting in the room AFK then coming back to the computer right before the timed mob pops. As long as you kill it "shortly" (which not been defined) you are with in the rules. If you leave the area in between "timers" and return just as the mob has poped but find another player waiting, you have lost your camp. Basically your toon has to be sitting in the room, but you do not have to be sitting at the comp during the waiting to pop period. GM's have also stated you are NEVER required to respond to any tell or CC about your camp, although its a great idea to help avoid disputes.

I think that if you show up to a long spawn and someone is there, they should need to respond to you within 15-20 minutes or so to keep the camp. It isn't fair to park a character in the morning, leave the house, and then come back 7 hours and 55 minutes later to scoop up the kill, and you should expect to have your camp stolen in those circumstances.

I disagree - I feel if a toon is parked at a Camp, you should move on. It is fair to leave a toon parked in an area, you have no idea if they have left the house or simply taking a killer dump. If a toon is sitting where you want to be simply move on, it would be great if they could let you know when they are done but they are not obligated to. If you want to wait because you think they are terminally afk so be it. If the mob pops and they are AFK and thus do not kill it "shorlty" i would think that mob is free game for you to kill. I would be careful as shortly is not defined it will be easy to be accused of KSing. IMO 2 min is shortly, but my opinion means nothing.

Those are my thoughts, but it would be great if we could get a GM to weigh in.

[Extunarian]

STUFF

Hi Hassel!

Yeah, I think you and I said the same thing. The full context of my quote was

but at the same time they do say AFK camping is frowned upon. Of course in this case they are talking about AFK'ing and letting your pet kill things for you

So I'm aware that is what the rule was made for. However I would contend that it needs to be expanded to explicitly state whether or not being AFK while camping a long spawn is enough to hold the camp. I am not really in one camp or another, but to avoid any confusion I chose to remain semi-active throughout my camp last weekend.

I'm compelled to believe you when you say a GM put this matter to rest, but I did search the forum but was unable to find where a GM stated that being AFK at a long camp for the duration of the spawn timer was ok, specifically in the Ishva case. Do you have a specific post in mind that you could link?

Thanks!

[BucMan55]

As far as shortly I would consider 5-10 minutes.


But I'm just a peon so what do I know.

[Beauregard]

As far as Ishva is concerned I believe there is no need to clear the room spawn to hold the camp, you just gotta be the first one there.

Afking in the room while holding the camp is accepted, as long as you don't have a pet up killing the room spawn.

Clarification on this specific camp would be great.

[cvinion]

In all honesty If your a Shaman, Druid, Necro or any other class that can levitate and you see a person AFK at a spawn such as the one mentioned with a 7 hour pop timer and no PH then just levitate them and do the "Afk Shuffle" and move them out of the room. I think that if you are AFK long enough to let someone move your charcter via levitation and literally tens of minutes of slowly nudging you out of your spot then I feel they earned the right to the spawn.

The rules say nothing about this, and if a GM does get involved you can always take a /time stamped screenshot of the other player not in the room after you push them out. The rules only say you have to be at the spawn and its only taking a spawn if you kill it when it was someone elses camp, theres nothing about moving other players via levitation.

C'mon people, think outside the bun....errr box!

[Odeseus]

And from the above posts, you can see where it gets confusing. The lines are a bit blurry on this issue.

Hassel is right that I cannot know why a person is afk. But having a necro FD and go AFK at a camp and go to bed, then go to work and arrive back at his comp 24 hours or so after he arrived, but a minute before ishva pops. By all some of the logic presented above, he would have full and total rights to the camp because his toon was there for literally 24 hours AND no one can prove he wasn't AFK because he is not required to respond to anything, nor is he required to kill anything. If this is what is accepted, why doesn't any necro who has the timer simply FD AFK there for huge amounts of time? They would never EVER lose the camp. And as a mage, my invis does not last forever. I cannot AFK for hours and hours in the room like a necro could. So I would never even remotely have a chance to be there "before" a necro using FD AFK.

That (in a nutshell) is what the problem is for that group.

[Beauregard]

And from the above posts, you can see where it gets confusing. The lines are a bit blurry on this issue.

Hassel is right that I cannot know why a person is afk. But having a necro FD and go AFK at a camp and go to bed, then go to work and arrive back at his comp 24 hours or so after he arrived, but a minute before ishva pops. By all some of the logic presented above, he would have full and total rights to the camp because his toon was there for literally 24 hours AND no one can prove he wasn't AFK because he is not required to respond to anything, nor is he required to kill anything. If this is what is accepted, why doesn't any necro who has the timer simply FD AFK there for huge amounts of time? They would never EVER lose the camp. And as a mage, my invis does not last forever. I cannot AFK for hours and hours in the room like a necro could. So I would never even remotely have a chance to be there "before" a necro using FD AFK.

That (in a nutshell) is what the problem is for that group.

Basically people do. Getting there 12 - 15 hrs early isn't even uncommon. The only reason people don't sit at it 24/7 is because you could be doing other more profitable/fun things. I think that's basically what the GM's have stated. So you're entitled to do exactly that, but really your time isn't best spent there.

[President]

There was a RnF post brought up a while back about someone who was in Paw helping out newbies while waiting for Ishva. Someone else zoned in, said "you aren't standing here," and took the camp.

I believe in the rules it says you can claim multiple camps until someone else/group wants one of them, at which time the person claiming multiple camps gets to pick the one they want while giving the other over to the new person/group.

Although running all over paw while claiming Ishva might be kinda weak (since the above rule was mostly talking about an enchanter claiming frenzy/lord/hand/etc. at the same time), it would also be pretty lame to take a camp from someone who is just buffing lowbies while waiting.

[Nuggie]

AFK camping ... means letting your pet kill something, over and over, while you are afk. This is frowned upon.

AFKing between spawns on a 16 minute camp? Not afk camping..

[Uthgaard]

If you want claim to a camp, you have to be present and able to respond to camp checks within a reasonable about of time. You can't just park a character there afk for 35 hours and 59 minutes and expect to monopolize it.

Camping a mob is a privelege, not a right. If someone wants the privelege of having sole claim to a mob, they have to make the sacrifice of whatever else they could be doing with themselves. Claim to a camp is a considerable advantage, it comes with a cost. Choose wisely.

[Nuggie]

^^ ----clarification

[fohkure]

If you want claim to a camp, you have to be present and able to respond to camp checks within a reasonable about of time. You can't just park a character there afk for 35 hours and 59 minutes and expect to monopolize it.

This seems painfully obvious to me, the part you quoted anyways. If you fd/hide at a camp and go watch a movie, you aren't giving up anything but a higher electricity bill. Anyone can do that instead of camping out or afking in EC tunnel while they leave. What gives a person reasonable claim to a camp is the sacrifice of doing something else, not just in game either. The reason people who get to a movie an hour early get the best seats is because they gave up an hour of their lives to get those seats. It seems like the same thing to me.

Camping rare stuff is not supposed to be easy, that's the whole point.

Chris

[john_savage1982]

If you want claim to a camp, you have to be present and able to respond to camp checks within a reasonable about of time. You can't just park a character there afk for 35 hours and 59 minutes and expect to monopolize it.

Are you saying I must constantly be watching zone channels for camp checks? Half the time I don't even read chat while I'm playing. Also how would somebody go about "proving" somebody was afk for that long? Are people now required to respond to tells to verify non-afk?

I'm sorry if the rules aren't crystal clear how do you intent to enforce anything?

[Evilmog]

Are you saying I must constantly be watching zone channels for camp checks? Half the time I don't even read chat while I'm playing. Also how would somebody go about "proving" somebody was afk for that long? Are people now required to respond to tells to verify non-afk?

I'm sorry if the rules aren't crystal clear how do you intent to enforce anything?

Do what I've done to Hadden campers a few times.

/tell camper Haddens there
/tell camper Hello?!?!
You have slain Hadden

In summary yes. Responding to tells is a good way to prove you arent afk

[john_savage1982]

if hadden is there and he isn't being killed is one thing, going afk for most of the spawn time and returning 20 minutes before to make sure you weren't off in your calculation insuring you can attack as soon as he spawns is another.

i don't really care if people aren't there. look at the poopsockers. most of them aren't there most of the time. if they aren't there when the mob spawns they risk losing it. i say say idea for other camps.

[Darkforge]

The way i did it back in the day was call in the zone (camp check) and if no-one called back then i went to the place i wanted to camp. Now if someone was there and AFK, this does not mean that they don’t get the camp or have it. You could be watching TV bathroom or whatever. Now i do believe if you are just AFK at a spawn and you know this person cannot kill the mob that spawns there and is just sitting there HOLDING a camp. Then it is free game. I believe if the person/s that can kill the mob, has to be present and at that location. But being AFK is not justified to taking a camp in no means. Like said in past posts, some spawns take up to 35 to 40 min just to spawn a place holder so if you watch TV you might not always be watching.

[Extunarian]

look at the poopsockers. most of them aren't there most of the time. if they aren't there when the mob spawns they risk losing it. i say say idea for other camps.

Boss spawns are on a random timer within a window, so going afk for 8 hours during the window is a risk. If you see hadden killed at 12pm, you can go afk until 5:59pm without any risk of missing the spawn.

John also brings up not watching shout/ooc channels. I would say you should only be worried about tells since it can be easy to tune out those channels.

Thanks Uthgaard for clearing this up. I'm bookmarking this until it gets added to the camp rules...preferably with a definition of what a 'reasonable time' to respond to tells would be.

[Chanus]

if hadden is there and he isn't being killed is one thing, going afk for most of the spawn time and returning 20 minutes before to make sure you weren't off in your calculation insuring you can attack as soon as he spawns is another.

i don't really care if people aren't there. look at the poopsockers. most of them aren't there most of the time. if they aren't there when the mob spawns they risk losing it. i say say idea for other camps.

I would say this falls under the "respond in a reasonable amount of time" window.

If the spawn won't be up for two hours and you're there but not responding to my tells, I wouldn't just assume the camp is now mine. I may sit there with you if I want the camp bad enough, but I would keep trying to get a response from you before making a move of my own.

If the spawn is ten minutes away and you aren't responding to tells, it's getting a little gray, but I'd give you the benefit of the doubt when it spawns and give you a chance to engage first since you were clearly there before me.

If the mob pops and you aren't responding to tells: too bad for you.

[Extunarian]

If the spawn won't be up for two hours and you're there but not responding to my tells, I wouldn't just assume the camp is now mine. I may sit there with you if I want the camp bad enough, but I would keep trying to get a response from you before making a move of my own.

If the spawn is ten minutes away and you aren't responding to tells, it's getting a little gray, but I'd give you the benefit of the doubt when it spawns and give you a chance to engage first since you were clearly there before me.

If the mob pops and you aren't responding to tells: too bad for you.


This doesn't really solve the issue, and I don't think it's in the spirit of the rule that Uthgaard stated. It would still allow for people to park their character in the morning, leave their house for 7 hours and 55 minutes, and then show up for the spawn.

If I get to a spawn 4 hours early and try for an hour to get you to respond to tells, and then you finally respond 2 hours later, I would argue that you weren't maintaining a presence at the camp and lost your right to it. However if the server rules stated something more specific I'd happily abide by them...this is just what I interpret to be fair.

Responding to tells every 20-30 minutes isn't too ridiculous of an obligation at these types of camps, especially given that most camps force you to some kind of action every 20-30 minutes to keep the camp held.

[freakyuno]

If the mob pops and you aren't responding to tells: too bad for you.

I'd agree with a little amendment, if the mob pops, and you aren't responding to tells, and not engaging the mob: to bad for you.

[Odeseus]

Responding within 20-30 minutes seems right to me. I wouldn't think you should have to respond to EVERY tell RIGHT away or risk losing the camp, particularly ishva since the spawn time is so long and since you dont *have* to kill anything at all. Nor should you always need to respond to OOC or shout (although it'd be nice). However, responding to tells is kind of a must.

Or if you want to use the ishva as the example: simply keep the single spawn in the room clear. It spawns every 25ish minutes or something like that. And that would let everyone know 2 things, a) that you have the firepower to probably take out ishva when it pops and b) that you are there at least once every 25ish mins. Done, no need to respond to tells or anything else. Your actions tell all that anyone would need to know.

The issue appears settled to me.