Can the "list holder" at AC OOT camp remove people for no reason?

[Mr-B]

I'll paint the picture:

I log in on my shaman who is parked at oot camp and see a mage.

Me- "hello, anyone else on the list?"
him- "no"
me- "Okie dokie, i'd like to be next"

no response

me- "want me to assist on cyclops' at 60%?"

no response

I sit at the spot waiting for my turn, and about 15 minutes later he pulls a seafury and has hit pet attack it right on top of me.

It attacks me, and I wait to see if he's gonna try to grab agro but he does nothing.

It gets me to about 60% and i move away.

me- "im gonna pretend that was an accident"
him- "going to be rude then ill take ya off the list. good luck to ya. your standing in the way go be productive and stop sittin around"
him- "good luck welcome to ignore"
me- "You can't decide who to take off the list"

I have screenshots of everything but don't feel like editing them together.

So my question is, what rules are there in place for stuff like this? There was nobody else in line, so I'm just going to wait for him to get AC then take spawn.

I don't want to bother a GM about this because they have better things to do, so I thought i'd just post this here to get some conversation going.

[Swish2]

I'm sure the list holder was camping jboots for himself and not selling them in the tunnel for 7k. What do you guys reckon?

I hate the idea of "more rules" but it seems like thats what its going to take...

[HeyNomad]

As far as I know, the only rules are the Play Nice Policy (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2651). The only way anyone has a claim a GM would recognize is to physically be at the camp.

So, sure, he can take you off the list, because the list is basically meaningless. But you were at the camp, so that doesn't matter. Technically, as I understand it, the camp became yours as soon as he left to pull from a different one (seafuries).

[Lhancelot]

Lists are player made. Server rules technically do not honor these lists.

The technical rule is the camp holder can choose who to pass the camp to. The caveat is the person he chooses must be present.

If the camp holder spawns the ac, and says he is done with the camp after he gets his ring, and there is no one there but you, the camp is yours if you want it. You technically do not have to wait for someone to arrive who was on the list.

Again, the list is only honored by players and you can see why some people refuse to honor such lists when some players manipulate the list to their personal liking.

[Mr-B]

As far as I know, the only rules are the Play Nice Policy (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2651). Technically, as I understand it, the camp became yours as soon as he left to pull from a different one (seafuries).

Yeah i wasn't really worried about that part. He got his AC to spawn about an hour after he tried killing me and left and now im at camp which is all that matters. I just wanted some kind of history in case he tried corpsing it and keeping camp or something which is what I think he was trying to do before I showed up.

[Mr-B]

Here are the pictures because I was bored.

https://gyazo.com/04cddc196c01865950e7d69fbc81d7cc

https://gyazo.com/9915319d1c71c9aa7e7e0bbc33a5fffb

https://gyazo.com/3445bde1b83643fce860561ad79e1749

or imgur album

https://imgur.com/a/OWqTE

[Pokesan]

Bingsley tried to steal your camp?

[Mr-B]

Bingsley tried to steal your camp?

No, I'm bingsley

[Pokesan]

No, I'm bingsley

are you sure? the name is blacked out in the screenshots

[Pokesan]

needless to say I'll be contacting <Mortals No Longer> leadership regarding this thread

[Mr-B]

needless to say I'll be contacting <Mortals No Longer> leadership regarding this thread

LOL. Well I'm pretty sure I'm the last officer remaining so I'll have a stern talking with myself.

https://gyazo.com/9e40f62a140511de0987f52ce69ca78b

edit: i just realized I left my pet's name uncensored, so please don't doxx him he's really a nice guy

[silo32]

awwww blue problems I remember this happening pre kunark on blue99

[Mr-B]

awwww blue problems I remember this happening pre kunark on blue99

Drama definitely makes the time go by. Also I got to practice my paint skills so I'm pretty excited about that.

[Pokesan]

LOL. Well I'm pretty sure I'm the last officer remaining so I'll have a stern talking with myself.

https://gyazo.com/9e40f62a140511de0987f52ce69ca78b

you've been doxxed, it's only fair to doxx your opponent now

my good chum

[Lhancelot]

So my question is, what rules are there in place for stuff like this? There was nobody else in line, so I'm just going to wait for him to get AC then take spawn.

I don't want to bother a GM about this because they have better things to do, so I thought i'd just post this here to get some conversation going.

Your first problem here is you are assuming there are "rules" concerning "lists" at a camp, and the only rules for lists are the ones made by the players.

I am pretty sure if you create a petition asking a GM about rules to a list, they are going to either ignore the petition or tell you that there are no such rules to lists that players make, only the server rules of engagement and of camps which have nothing to do with player made lists.

Assuming you want to follow the rules of an imaginary "list" that people create, then sure, if the list holder doesn't want you on it that is his right to forget you ever asked to be on the list in line for the camp.

This system is BS and creates a huge bottleneck of players who afk, play on alts, and do everything but actually wait for the camp they want.

If people had to physically have their toon waiting for a camp, the "lists" of people at said camp would be much smaller.

The way it is now, half the time you ask who is on the list it's 4-8 people. Yet, you only see one guy at the camp sitting...

You decide to try the next day, and oh! It's the same neckbeards on the list again... and the day after... and the day after...

These guys that farm AC religiously go afk, mess around on alts, go to the Walmart to grab more Doritos and Mountain Dew, come back and send tells to see if their turn has come up on the list. Some of these guys do it 24/7.

They literally have endless hours to spend waiting for their turn on the list, so they farm AC over and over, and over, AND OVER.... While you might just want your one pair of Jboots and not want to have to buy a MQ of the Jboots from one of these list mongers.

I see the reason behind a "list." But it also causes a lot of problems too. Especially when you got people that hold the "list" as some kind of Trump card, where they can remove you for personal reasons.

That's very bad, very bad. *spoken with puckered lips and waving little hands around in front of myself as I say the words*

[Lemonhead]

People don't want someone waiting there because they can't corpse a ring and keep going. Ofc, this may not be true in this instance, but it's somewhat likely.

[maskedmelon]

There are no lists. It is FFA once the current camp holder leaves. Derupal had outlined a decent protocol for passing camps, but it is more of a headache to enforce then anything, so they just go off of FTE now once the current camp holder departs. Just wait until that guy leaves and be the first to nab the next ph and you win :3

[maskedmelon]

People don't want someone waiting there because they can't corpse a ring and keep going. Ofc, this may not be true in this instance, but it's somewhat likely.

This is also true, but corpsing is against the rules.

[Valakut]

There is a lot of contradictory information in this thread and mostly incomplete information. As the resident AC camper in this thread I'd like to hit on a couple points.

If the person left the camp to pull a seafury then they indeed did abandon the camp. And upon the AC/PH respawning if you got FTE on it then you would have a strong claim to the camp. If you had fraps it would help a lot more than screenshots when it came time to lawyer.

The server staff doesn't mandate lists and people love to bellow this but from the play nice policy it is suggested or advised that players reach an agreement between themselves before involving a GM since the GM has the ability to decide an unfavorable ruling to both parties.

He was probably trying to get your eyes off the camp so if the AC spawned he could loot it and keep the camp. Majority of end game guilds do this involving raid mobs. They don't rely on the good will of other players notifying them of anything.

In regards to the list, what I've seen is even though GMs ignore lists there has been past rulings where the camp holder must declare who is next. If that player who was originally declared as next is not present after the person gets the AC to spawn since they must pass the lore item camp, then it'll probably result in a ugly FTE firing squad in which having fraps handy would help your case.

As previously stated though the AC list has devolved into serial campers who camp it anywhere from 7-14 times a week and simply get added to the list with no strong intention of being able to take over the camp. It's just a lottery of if your on the list when you actually intend to play the game during the day and your name comes up then you win. Ultimately this is on the camp holder to maintain a strong list of players who will reciprocate the respect and collective player agreements which can go sideways without notice and is the risk you take by not being present in the camp you wish to contest.

[Dreenk317]

This is also true, but corpsing is against the rules.

Corpsing is really against the rules?

I'm not saying your wrong. Just that I've never seen it said to be against the rules. And is a fairly common practice.

Also, as much as people hate the list, without it the FTE firing squads and resulting drama would be 10 times what it is now. In my personal experience with the list system, I've been snubbed/dropped/passed over maybe twice out of dozens of camps. I've even had the camp given to me by people higher up on the list because when there turn came they were busy so they passed.

Does it take longer? Possibly. But I've had to camp AC for 12+ hours before. I've often logged in, gotten on list, and had an AC ring within 5 hours.

Is it a perfect system? No, does it work? Better than some imo.

[Lhancelot]

Corpsing is really against the rules?


100% is not allowed. Tell a guide so they can delete the corpsed rings, thanks. Maybe that would stop the neckbeards from holding ac for 24-48 hours straight.

[Naethyn]

There is a group of players who camp AC that I refer to as the "AC Cartel." They wait until no players are in the zone and then they reorder the list so the cartel members are first. This agreement is across multiple guilds that only includes the hardcore players that camp this. Anyone who has the camp can decide who to give the camp to. Don't believe the lists. If you get the camp just give it to whoever is there and waiting to camp it the longest and let that person decide who will get it after that.

[Lhancelot]

There is a group of players who camp AC that I refer to as the "AC Cartel." They wait until no players are in the zone and then they reorder the list so the cartel members are first. This agreement is across multiple guilds that only includes the hardcore players that camp this. Anyone who has the camp can decide who to give the camp to. Don't believe the lists. If you get the camp just give it to whoever is there and waiting to camp it the longest and let that person decide who will get it after that.

Exactly this. The list is total bullshit and there are a solid group of people that constantly camp the thing. Sure, you might get the camp after a few days of waiting on the "list", but that's because they simply couldn't pass it to their co-conspirators.

[rollin5k]

Don't like classic everquest competition circa 2016? Take to the forums and write a thesis

[coki]

So there is a lv 40 bard camping AC right now, taking 45mins to kill each cyclops ph.... fcking ridiculous, so stupid sigh

[coki]

100% is not allowed. Tell a guide so they can delete the corpsed rings, thanks. Maybe that would stop the neckbeards from holding ac for 24-48 hours straight.

Corpesing is allowed... you just can't corpse the ring and then go back to camping the AC, you forfeit the camp once you get you item from said camp, if someone is there to take it atleast... if no one is there then you can reclaim the camp after a corpse

[hillgiantchamp]

I had a buddy zone into oot said he saw AC corpse lieing on the ground. He assumed the ring was looted and asked the mage camping it if he could take over. No response. With 5 seconds left on the corpse he checked it and looted the ring. I guess mages just sit there afk pet killing.

[Lhancelot]

Corpesing is allowed... you just can't corpse the ring and then go back to camping the AC, you forfeit the camp once you get you item from said camp, if someone is there to take it atleast... if no one is there then you can reclaim the camp after a corpse

Not time to find it, but I am pretty sure a guide popped in and said corpsing rings was not allowed in an older thread. Maybe someone else can verify this or not?

[coki]

Not time to find it, but I am pretty sure a guide popped in and said corpsing rings was not allowed in an older thread. Maybe someone else can verify this or not?

unless they changed it very recently, what i stated above is the sirken ruleing

[Cecily]

There is a group of players who camp AC that I refer to as the "AC Cartel." They wait until no players are in the zone and then they reorder the list so the cartel members are first. This agreement is across multiple guilds that only includes the hardcore players that camp this. Anyone who has the camp can decide who to give the camp to. Don't believe the lists. If you get the camp just give it to whoever is there and waiting to camp it the longest and let that person decide who will get it after that.

If there's no players in the zone, there's no list. And lists are really only one person long, whoever is next. Guess who that is? Definitely not the guy 20 zones over on his alt. I give my camps to people who stay in zone waiting patiently, next to me.

[maskedmelon]

Corpesing is allowed... you just can't corpse the ring and then go back to camping the AC, you forfeit the camp once you get you item from said camp, if someone is there to take it atleast... if no one is there then you can reclaim the camp after a corpse

This is correct^^ Once you get your item you are done. If nobody is there then yeah have at it, because it doesn't matter lol :3 I see my earlier post was less than clear f(`.^);

[Muggens]

There are no list or list holders here. First come first served

[EQBallzz]

when will people on blue learn that they will not play long enough to spend 7k in sow pots and sow is faster and 2x longer.

swear that server is full of morans.

Pro tip: When you call people morons you might want to spell moron correctly. When will people on red learn to use spell-check?

[RDawg816]

Pro tip: When you call people morons you might want to spell moron correctly. When will people on red learn to use spell-check?
He didn't misspell it. It's "an inside joke." Eventually it might go away. Doubtful though...

[kotton05]

Pro tip: When you call people morons you might want to spell moron correctly. When will people on red learn to use spell-check?

Confirmed a moran ^ you must be new... so you can't give a single pro tip. Unless it's just the tip.

[katrik]

The list DOES NOT exist, unless every player abides by it. If there are several people on the list, and nobody is there except the guy camping it.... you're 2nd in line at the camp. You must maintain a physical presence at the camp.

[skarlorn]

Giving thanks ppl are still sick enough to camp AC giving thanks Rogean and nilbog have created a safe space for these sickos giving thanks these sickos are now on govt watch lists

[Swish2]

You know there's a place away from this endless lawyering, where you can actually play EverQuest and where you can sort out conflicts quickly rather than drain the staff of all the motivation they ever had to deal with your shit.

[Dreenk317]

The list DOES NOT exist, unless every player abides by it. If there are several people on the list, and nobody is there except the guy camping it.... you're 2nd in line at the camp. You must maintain a physical presence at the camp.

This isn't actually true.... Only the person currently holding the camp has to maintain physical presence at that camp. And he can pass it to whoever he wants, even someone twenty zones away. As long as he maintains his physical presence at said camp until said person gets there. Doesn't matter how long you've been sitting next to him. That's how the camp rules work here as far as I've interpreted them.

[Swish2]

This isn't actually true.... Only the person currently holding the camp has to maintain physical presence at that camp. And he can pass it to whoever he wants, even someone twenty zones away. As long as he maintains his physical presence at said camp until said person gets there. Doesn't matter how long you've been sitting next to him. That's how the camp rules work here as far as I've interpreted them.

...and therein lies the problem.

A further problem is codifying the rules so that everyone can refer to them to lawyer other people out of things.

Lose/lose for the community - just because people want to be shitty.

[katrik]

This isn't actually true.... Only the person currently holding the camp has to maintain physical presence at that camp. And he can pass it to whoever he wants, even someone twenty zones away. As long as he maintains his physical presence at said camp until said person gets there. Doesn't matter how long you've been sitting next to him. That's how the camp rules work here as far as I've interpreted them.

If the person he chooses to surrender the camp to does not have a physical presence at the camp, they forfeit the camp. It's whoever has been sitting there the longest waiting.

[fan D]

dear OP

pls take this up with the local authorities and inform the judge

iirc the rules of the jboot waitlist in 2016 are not admissable in court

[fan D]

don't think ive ever been as ashamed to have played everquest and this server until now

many people in this thread need to have their reproductive organs removed and eat an ass kicking irl
eg. Mr-B, Lhancelot, Valakut, Naethyn, Coki

i don't even know what to say to you people, clearly your parents have failed you in a tremendous fashion

[Lhancelot]

don't think ive ever been as ashamed to have played everquest and this server until now

many people in this thread need to have their reproductive organs removed and eat an ass kicking irl
eg. Mr-B, Lhancelot, Valakut, Naethyn, Coki

i don't even know what to say to you people, clearly your parents have failed you in a tremendous fashion

Love you too, Fandy.

[Dreenk317]

If the person he chooses to surrender the camp to does not have a physical presence at the camp, they forfeit the camp. It's whoever has been sitting there the longest waiting.

You missed the part where I said "as long as they wait for said person to get to the camp (paraphrasing)". It's up to the person holding the camp, period. As long as the person they pass it too is at the camp, that's that. They can't tell you to just wait and give the camp to someone that's on there way, that's true. But if they hold camp till that person shows..... Then ya.

[Strana]

Here is quote to Play Nice Policy.
"A CSR's ruling may be different than previous rulings based on any number of circumstances, including (but not limited to) players involved and their history, behavior / attitude of the players, and facts gathered by the CSR."

And here is a old post explaining what many in thread have stated.
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9

[Zemus]

You missed the part where I said "as long as they wait for said person to get to the camp (paraphrasing)". It's up to the person holding the camp, period. As long as the person they pass it too is at the camp, that's that. They can't tell you to just wait and give the camp to someone that's on there way, that's true. But if they hold camp till that person shows..... Then ya.

If the person camping the AC gets the lore item there needs to be someone present to pass it to.

[Zemus]

You missed the part where I said "as long as they wait for said person to get to the camp (paraphrasing)". It's up to the person holding the camp, period. As long as the person they pass it too is at the camp, that's that. They can't tell you to just wait and give the camp to someone that's on there way, that's true. But if they hold camp till that person shows..... Then ya.

If the ph pops and the person they want to pass it to is not there, the person standing there wanting the camp can take it.

[Samoht]

Your first problem here is you are assuming there are "rules" concerning "lists" at a camp, and the only rules for lists are the ones made by the players.

I am pretty sure if you create a petition asking a GM about rules to a list, they are going to either ignore the petition or tell you that there are no such rules to lists that players make, only the server rules of engagement and of camps which have nothing to do with player made lists.

You'd be wrong. There does not have to be a full list, but if someone is next, you have to honor that. As Valakut and Cecily say below:

In regards to the list, what I've seen is even though GMs ignore lists there has been past rulings where the camp holder must declare who is next. If that player who was originally declared as next is not present after the person gets the AC to spawn since they must pass the lore item camp, then it'll probably result in a ugly FTE firing squad in which having fraps handy would help your case.

If there's no players in the zone, there's no list. And lists are really only one person long, whoever is next. Guess who that is? Definitely not the guy 20 zones over on his alt. I give my camps to people who stay in zone waiting patiently, next to me.

Next,

This isn't actually true.... Only the person currently holding the camp has to maintain physical presence at that camp. And he can pass it to whoever he wants, even someone twenty zones away. As long as he maintains his physical presence at said camp until said person gets there. Doesn't matter how long you've been sitting next to him. That's how the camp rules work here as far as I've interpreted them.

It is true. If you ask if there's a list, and the camp-holder says no, then you ask to be next, you just created the list and made yourself next. He cannot pass it to anyone he wants. If he did have someone next, he has to tell you who they are.

[Xaanka]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WOW THANKS
FOR THE
REMINDER YOU
NEED A LAW
DEGREE TO
PLAY ON THE
BLUE SERVER
MAYBE THIS IS
WHAT YOU
MEANT WHEN
YOU SAID THAT
PVE ENCOUNTERS
ARE HARDER
ON BLUE
THAN RED?

[SoekiWiz]

There seems to be a lot of confusion... so I'm going to attempt to contribute without adding fuel to the fire.

Let's just say many people seem to be confusing "rules" with "courtesy" or "expectation" or "tradition" or any other word we can bust out of the thesaurus.

Here's my recommendation on what you want to remember (take it or leave it) - at the end of the day, if it comes down to involving the GM staff it also means involving their perspective, personal attitude/feeling toward the situation. We can shade in any number of grey areas and contestable points.

Summary: Try not to be a dickhead, but also don't be a doormat.

[Lhancelot]

blah blah blah blah blah...

All bullshit here. ^

[Lhancelot]

Thanks to MM for digging up this post from Derubael explaining camps and providing the link to that post on an old thread I created on this very topic.

Derubael's Post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9
(http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9)

What he wrote:

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt. W

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The person coming to take the camp had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob. You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.

Last edited by Derubael; 11-10-2014 at 10:49 AM..

[Samoht]

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.


I wouldn't put much stock into things posted by Derubael, but this pretty much confirms everything I said.

[Sirban]

LOL

[fastboy21]

Thanks to MM for digging up this post from Derubael explaining camps and providing the link to that post on an old thread I created on this very topic.

Derubael's Post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9
(http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9)

What he wrote:

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt. W

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The person coming to take the camp had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob. You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.

Last edited by Derubael; 11-10-2014 at 10:49 AM..

The problem, unfortunately, is that its rarely clear cut.

These rules only really work smoothly when both parties (the current camp holder and the potential next camp holder) are already willing to work in good faith with one another. Of course, if both parties are already willing to work in good faith with one another they would have been able to resolve the camp ownership on their own without any CSR rules in the first place.

AC is a great example:
1. Every time the named spawns he drops the ring. There is no trust required to know whether the camped item dropped. (Not so at every camp---FBSS, for example).

2. The sought after item is LORE. (Again, not so at every camp.)

3. The item is extremely desirable and easily attained by a moderately geared mid lvl player.

4. It is a very fast spawn time on the PH in a relatively remote zone. A real player "next on the list" has no chance of getting there before the next spawn time or before the ph has been up for more than two minutes (see Derubael's post) unless...

The only four ways this hand off could happen "in time" to prevent a fumble:
1) The player is bound in OOT and gates immediately for the next ph.
2) The player is actually physically there and ready for the hand off.
3) The handing off player delays the kill (i.e. keeps the AC charmed, CCd, at 1%, etc.) while the receiving player runs to camp.
4) The receiving player is camped at the site. They may be on an alt or not online at all, but they are logging into their toon camped in OOT for the handoff.

Options 3 and 4 are sketchy to me, but don't seem to overtly break any of Derubael's rules. Option 3 seems unreasonable and option 4 requires enough trust between the players that the receiving toon isn't an alt camped there by the current camp holder to double camp the item.

If you decided to camp the AC a few times (I've probably done it six times since launch here) you are going to run into farmers and scammers. Most of the time I've done it I've met good people who sometimes even chit chat while we wait. I've routinely been trained by folks to see if I've fallen asleep or are truly afk when I camp on a toon that can't FD. I've had people try to cut in line. I've had people try to KS. I've had people make up stories about the game bugged and it didn't drop the ring. Sometimes you get good trustworthy folks sometimes you get jerkbags.

Bottom line: imo, the nonsense and timesink of obtaining are part of EQ. There are workarounds to avoid it if you wanted to take them. EQ lets people be jerks or helpful to each other, you get to choose which you will be...but you can't choose for other people. No rules or GM intervention is gonna fix that, and it wouldn't be EQ if they did.

[Trungep99]

People ask to be on my list, I say sure. When I'm done 50% of time I usually camp and forget to send a tell

[Xaanka]

Thanks to MM for digging up this post from Derubael explaining camps and providing the link to that post on an old thread I created on this very topic.

Derubael's Post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9
(http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9)

What he wrote:

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt. W

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The person coming to take the camp had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob. You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.

Last edited by Derubael; 11-10-2014 at 10:49 AM..

The problem, unfortunately, is that its rarely clear cut.

These rules only really work smoothly when both parties (the current camp holder and the potential next camp holder) are already willing to work in good faith with one another. Of course, if both parties are already willing to work in good faith with one another they would have been able to resolve the camp ownership on their own without any CSR rules in the first place.

AC is a great example:
1. Every time the named spawns he drops the ring. There is no trust required to know whether the camped item dropped. (Not so at every camp---FBSS, for example).

2. The sought after item is LORE. (Again, not so at every camp.)

3. The item is extremely desirable and easily attained by a moderately geared mid lvl player.

4. It is a very fast spawn time on the PH in a relatively remote zone. A real player "next on the list" has no chance of getting there before the next spawn time or before the ph has been up for more than two minutes (see Derubael's post) unless...

The only four ways this hand off could happen "in time" to prevent a fumble:
1) The player is bound in OOT and gates immediately for the next ph.
2) The player is actually physically there and ready for the hand off.
3) The handing off player delays the kill (i.e. keeps the AC charmed, CCd, at 1%, etc.) while the receiving player runs to camp.
4) The receiving player is camped at the site. They may be on an alt or not online at all, but they are logging into their toon camped in OOT for the handoff.

Options 3 and 4 are sketchy to me, but don't seem to overtly break any of Derubael's rules. Option 3 seems unreasonable and option 4 requires enough trust between the players that the receiving toon isn't an alt camped there by the current camp holder to double camp the item.

If you decided to camp the AC a few times (I've probably done it six times since launch here) you are going to run into farmers and scammers. Most of the time I've done it I've met good people who sometimes even chit chat while we wait. I've routinely been trained by folks to see if I've fallen asleep or are truly afk when I camp on a toon that can't FD. I've had people try to cut in line. I've had people try to KS. I've had people make up stories about the game bugged and it didn't drop the ring. Sometimes you get good trustworthy folks sometimes you get jerkbags.

Bottom line: imo, the nonsense and timesink of obtaining are part of EQ. There are workarounds to avoid it if you wanted to take them. EQ lets people be jerks or helpful to each other, you get to choose which you will be...but you can't choose for other people. No rules or GM intervention is gonna fix that, and it wouldn't be EQ if they did.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WOW THANKS
FOR THE
REMINDER YOU
NEED A LAW
DEGREE TO
PLAY ON THE
BLUE SERVER

[Swish2]

I'm not reading all that.

I'd rather win or lose the AC in a duel of pvp skill if the AC is contested... either way it doesn't result in a petition, waiting to see if I get the ring (or get to keep the ring), and simmering in the meantime about how another elf sim player is trying to stitch me up. Also it doesn't waste the staff's time.

[Xaanka]

heres how i got my jboots on red:

- killed some nerd camping AC on a low leve druid, then killed the AC

[katrik]

Thanks to MM for digging up this post from Derubael explaining camps and providing the link to that post on an old thread I created on this very topic.

Derubael's Post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9
(http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1652719&postcount=9)

What he wrote:

Pretty clear-cut, and these exact rules have been around in one form or another for quite some time. I really need to compile a "Project 1999: Errata and other extraneous information" post to put all this stuff. For now, this will have to do:

Camp holder has the right to pass the camp to whoever he would like. However, and this is very important, two things must happen in order for this to be a legitimate hand-off:

1) The player being handed the camp must be present around the time the first placeholder spawns after the last holder of the camp has gotten his or her item in hand. The person handing off the camp must stay at the spawn until the next person in line arrives, if that person is on their way to take the camp. There is a little leeway here, and we refuse to set an exact timer on how long the placeholder can be up before the camp is forfeited, but in general it should never be for more than a couple minutes or so. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the person coming in to take the camp in these situations as CSR staff, so waiting a bit longer will never hurt. W

2) The person holding the camp cannot mislead you, or change his mind after telling you who is next. Something that no one ever does (and I will never understand why) is to specifically address the camp holder, asking who is next or if you can be next. The camp holder does need to reveal to you who the next intended camp holder is - if he doesn't, you may ask to be next and your claim will be valid unless he reveals the next person immediately. This person cannot change after the camp holder has "revealed" the next person to take the camp to you. It is an automatic forfeit if this occurs. If you ask to be the next camp holder and are told yes, the camp holder may not later retract or change this agreement and attempt to hand the camp off to someone else - it's yours once he has gotten his item or moved on from the camp.

Something else important to note about handing off camps - in particular, popular ones, but this applies to any camp that becomes contested. If you are solo camping, once you attain the item you were waiting for (an AC ring, for example) you are done camping that mob. The person coming to take the camp had better be prepared at this point in order to come eliminate the very next placeholder spawn in order to "stake his claim" on the mob. You cannot work wacky corpse lines on lore items in order to grab multiple items in the same "camp session" if there are others waiting to take the camp. Please be aware that we reserve the right to apply this same ruling to any camp if we deem it necessary, including camps with multiple players.

Last edited by Derubael; 11-10-2014 at 10:49 AM..

Mostly this. What we really need is a GM to write up specific rules for this particular camp.. and make sure they're enforced. The amount of confusion around this camp is unreasonable. Until then, the camp will be abused by retired/disabled/losers.

[Swish2]

That was me.

And no, you came to the Sro AC at 35%, claimed it was yours cause you "made him spawn" (lol 9pm game time), proceeded to spend all your high level Rangers mana dispelling my dots, snare and root for 5 mins as I kited him arouND.

Once out of mana you logged a high druid and did the same thing dispelling for another 5 mins till you got frustrated. THEN logged onto an enchanter that wasn't oor, duall boxed ported him into Sro and chain mezzed and rooted me till the AC killed me.

And the only reason I was able to kill the mob was due to almost every one of my spells fizzled during your THREE relogs. You didn't PVP the AC off me nerd, I had a string of terrible dice rolls.

You blued the shit out of me then used red server rules to pull out a last second grief. Keep acting like you red though, champ.

If he's able to mez you you gotta get that MR up to 125-130ish...if you stumble on some high end gems I'm happy to do the combines for you at cost ^^

[Swish2]

What's your advice on handling 10 mins of oor dispelling the AC?

Charm him and hand over some MR gear?

Dispelling off a large portion of my mana, then proceeding to fizzle is how he got the kill. Not chain mezzing and rooting an oom druid to purposely cause an exp loss.

Appreciate the offer of JC services though.

Load up the level 1/5/9 versions of your spells and see if you can outlast his dispeling...one thing a lot of red players aren't good at is reading spell text (some exceptions). They see the creeping crud/drones of doom spell effects or whatever else and assume you're trying 100%. Make it a test of patience, or if you've made some friends who are on - get them down to help while the bullshit is progressing lol

If you don't have your JC slots covered, more stats would help too... I remember the biggest problem on my first red druid (human, restarted) was not having enough mana to kill anyone :p

[Xaanka]

That was me.

And no, you came to the Sro AC at 35%, claimed it was yours cause you "made him spawn" (lol 9pm game time), proceeded to spend all your high level Rangers mana dispelling my dots, snare and root for 5 mins as I kited him arouND.

Once out of mana you logged a high druid and did the same thing dispelling for another 5 mins till you got frustrated. THEN logged onto an enchanter that wasn't oor, duall boxed ported him into Sro and chain mezzed and rooted me till the AC killed me.

And the only reason I was able to kill the mob was due to almost every one of my spells fizzled during your THREE relogs. You didn't PVP the AC off me nerd, I had a string of terrible dice rolls.

You blued the shit out of me then used red server rules to pull out a last second grief. Keep acting like you red though, champ.

lol that's pretty hilarious but i don't dual box, have an enchanter, or a ranger. or play everquest.

[Vasuki]

I'm not reading all that.

I'd rather win or lose the AC in a duel of pvp skill if the AC is contested... either way it doesn't result in a petition, waiting to see if I get the ring (or get to keep the ring), and simmering in the meantime about how another elf sim player is trying to stitch me up. Also it doesn't waste the staff's time.

How are camps in Red disputed if people are not in PvP level range?

[Cecily]

Blue rules apply and nothing makes people there angrier.

[Doctor Jeff]

Blue rules apply and nothing makes people there angrier.

Not true, we just log in a level appropriate twink to slay the nerd.

[Cecily]

Angry enough to kill someone?!

[Xaanka]

How are camps in Red disputed if people are not in PvP level range?

train them or log on an alt :rolleyes:

[Lhancelot]

That was me.

And no, you came to the Sro AC at 35%, claimed it was yours cause you "made him spawn" (lol 9pm game time), proceeded to spend all your high level Rangers mana dispelling my dots, snare and root for 5 mins as I kited him arouND.

Once out of mana you logged a high druid and did the same thing dispelling for another 5 mins till you got frustrated. THEN logged onto an enchanter that wasn't oor, duall boxed ported him into Sro and chain mezzed and rooted me till the AC killed me.

And the only reason I was able to kill the mob was due to almost every one of my spells fizzled during your THREE relogs. You didn't PVP the AC off me nerd, I had a string of terrible dice rolls.

You blued the shit out of me then used red server rules to pull out a last second grief. Keep acting like you red though, champ.

Xaanka you got pwned. :(

[Doors]

What's a list holder

[fastboy21]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WOW THANKS
FOR THE
REMINDER YOU
NEED A LAW
DEGREE TO
PLAY ON THE
BLUE SERVER


(I changed your font size b/c I find it to be obnoxious without adding anything meaningful.)

You don't need a law degree. Even the most complicated rules on p99 involve reading a few paragraphs and having the ability to think a little. I do realize some folks struggle with that and would rather just play the game. Its hardly a law degree.

Second, the whole point of my post (which you clearly didn't read) was to point out that, in the end, these rules don't really work for resolving many issues...you just have to not be a total dickbag and things will mostly work out okay.

That's really the only rule that matters 95% of the time when we are playing.

[Aesop]

Blue rules apply and nothing makes people there angrier.

yeah I chased Croup off PS the other day on my 60 druid and parked my 55 necro there.

non stop tells for like 2 hours daring me to come back on my druid lol.

[Xaanka]

(I changed your font size b/c I find it to be obnoxious without adding anything meaningful.)

You don't need a law degree. Even the most complicated rules on p99 involve reading a few paragraphs and having the ability to think a little. I do realize some folks struggle with that and would rather just play the game. Its hardly a law degree.

Second, the whole point of my post (which you clearly didn't read) was to point out that, in the end, these rules don't really work for resolving many issues...you just have to not be a total dickbag and things will mostly work out okay.

That's really the only rule that matters 95% of the time when we are playing.

what kind of crack are you smoking? 8 page thread about the rules for some level 30 camp.

Even the most complicated rules on p99 involve reading a few paragraphs and having the ability to think a little.

tell that to anyone involved in organizing raids. or better yet click "raid discussion" and see for yourself how wrong you are.

[fastboy21]

what kind of crack are you smoking? 8 page thread about the rules for some level 30 camp.



tell that to anyone involved in organizing raids. or better yet click "raid discussion" and see for yourself how wrong you are.

its all relative. if you're an idiot irl then lots of stuff probably seems complicated when it really isn't.

i am very well aware how raiding works on p99...i've been involved in every type of guild on this server since launch. i just disagree about what's complicated. its not the complexity of the rules (almost any idiot can read the rules and understand them---almost any idiot, I realize there are some here that can't/won't read for themselves apparently), but the players that cause the problem.

as for the raid game the rules are pretty simple, its the people that are jerkbags that complicate things, which again was the whole point of my post (resulting in long long threads from folks whining how the game makers ought to be able to stop people from being jerks). the more complicated the rules are reflects the jerks they try to manage. you can't manage jerks, its like herding cats. rules can't make someone stop being a jerk...which is why p99 is so raid-crazy.

***
As for the AC camp, its a special example because (regardless of the lvl to do it) it is a very important EQ camp. Just about every single player will want a pair of jboots...so the AC (even back on live) was always a hotbed example to talk camp rules. everyone has had an experience with it if they've played EQ. Its not surprising that folks have also been bringing it up here since launch, and posting long threads to discuss it.

[Bruno]

its all relative. if you're an idiot irl then lots of stuff probably seems complicated when it really isn't.

i am very well aware how raiding works on p99...i've been involved in every type of guild on this server since launch. i just disagree about what's complicated. its not the complexity of the rules (almost any idiot can read the rules and understand them---almost any idiot, I realize there are some here that can't/won't read for themselves apparently), but the players that cause the problem.

as for the raid game the rules are pretty simple, its the people that are jerkbags that complicate things, which again was the whole point of my post (resulting in long long threads from folks whining how the game makers ought to be able to stop people from being jerks). the more complicated the rules are reflects the jerks they try to manage. you can't manage jerks, its like herding cats. rules can't make someone stop being a jerk...which is why p99 is so raid-crazy.

***
As for the AC camp, its a special example because (regardless of the lvl to do it) it is a very important EQ camp. Just about every single player will want a pair of jboots...so the AC (even back on live) was always a hotbed example to talk camp rules. everyone has had an experience with it if they've played EQ. Its not surprising that folks have also been bringing it up here since launch, and posting long threads to discuss it.

I couldn't agree with this more. In the many years I've played on this server, I can't remember a time I read a GM rule and said to myself this is hard to comprehend. It's usually a matter of people simply unwilling to follow them because they don't agree or it just doesn't benefit them at that moment. Self-interest and selfishness is where the rules become "complicated' because people try to bend them to their benefit.

[Lhancelot]

It's usually a matter of people simply unwilling to follow them because they don't agree or it just doesn't benefit them at that moment. Self-interest and selfishness is where the rules become "complicated' because people try to bend them to their benefit.

Exactly. ^

And actually this applies to raiding and rules of engagement too. Everyone understands them fine, they just like to try to either manipulate how the rules are read, or try to skew how an encounter actually went down when rules of engagement are questioned regarding a specific mob and situation.

Greedy neckbeards are the culprits of all problems on this server.

[Baler]

Camp holder can pass it to who ever the funk he/she wants to.

[Red_Messiah]

Camp holder can pass it to who ever the funk he/she wants to.

"Can I get on the list?"
"What list scrub? Get out of my sight"
"Fight me 1v1 lets go"
"I don't have to, the rules are on my side"
"I'll pay you to take the camp after you're finished"
"Now we're talking..."

Take a slice of that MQers profit blue world lowlifes - make the most of your bad ruleset.