paladin or ranger?

[kickerofelves]

I've never tanked in a video game before, but I think playing a paladin of tunare seems cool. I also heard that "knights" are gonna get their damage buffed eventually? is that just shadow knights or does that include pallys? what is tanking like in eq?

rangers seem like they'd be better at soloing though

I played a bard up to 20 mostly soloing but without doing any of that swarm kiting bs but my hand started to cramp up and it hurt to pick up shit or a while

I don't really know what to play

[RDawg816]

The knight upgrade would apply to paladins as well.

Tanking is about holding aggro and soaking up damage. It's not for everyone.

Also, I sent you a PM with some tips.

[Samoht]

rangers seem like they'd be better at soloing though

Rangers are not technically a tank class. If you want a tank class that can solo via fear kiting, then Shadowknight is your answer.

[kickerofelves]

yeah I know I just wasn't sure where to post this and rangers can at least sorta tank


I've thought about sk but I just don't really like any of the dark elf faces

[Zsrai]

I've thought about sk but I just don't really like any of the dark elf faces

So play a glorious Erudite!

[RDawg816]

So play a glorious Erudite!
Or troll or ogre...?

[kickerofelves]

I'm an elf man

[Heavenzoutcast]

Iksar for life.

[Baler]

This seems kind of cruel. Picking between the two worst classes of velious. I like paladins but ranger tracking is pretty dope. ranger. But paladin can split indoors and outdoors. paladin. Then again ranger gets spirit of wolf. ranger. But paladin gets a 90% res. paladin.

grr... Hard choice.

Edit: If you plan to make it to 60,. some food for thought.
Paladin:
SANCTIFICATION, lvl:60, Immunity to most types of harmful spells, Duration:18 Sec, Cooldown:72 Min

Ranger
WEAPONSHIELD, lvl:60, Parry all melee attacks from the front, Duration:15 Sec, Cooldown:72 Min

[Pyrion]

I tried both into the 20ties, ranger was more fun overall. But with a pally you had those rare moment when your lay hands saved the group, feeling heroic all around...

Both can be fun. If you like outdoors leveling, ranger looks better. In dungeons some of the rangers abilities get obsolete so pally is looking better there.

[fugazi]

The ranger is a god in many of the usual suspect zones, like Mistmoore, City of Mist and Karnors, because of their ability to harmony, snare and track. With a level advantage and a slower in the group they can tank just fine, because the slower can slow on inc thanks to the snare and newbie dot the ranger has.

Paladins are pretty ace too, but require a lot more knowledge and experience. That, or you just frequent the path most traveled and spam stun and blind when invited to a group.

Both do admirable damage with minimum plat investment. 30/40ish weapons are around 100 plat and the ranger can rock a silver swiftblade from 1 to 30.

[Leiker]

I would say that Ranger offers much more utility than a Paladin. DPS is decent too.

Paladin is a fun class and I love mine, but the really good stuff does not come until level 55+ and even then its kind of underwhelming. Paladins are good group tanks, but thats about it.

I wouldnt roll a Paladin unless I was absolutely thats what I wanted. If doubt, Ranger is the safest bet imo.

This is coming from someone with a 60 Paladin.

[Gonzoforever]

depends what u want :
- if u want to group : paladin is the best class to get agro fast and hold it. U can still solo but it is very slow (low dps)
- if u like to solo : rangers. They have better dps and cool stuff such as tracking ...

Both classes are not very popular on p99 but I like to group with both of them.

Good luck !

[Sage Truthbearer]

Neither class can solo particularly well, therefore which role you enjoy more when playing in groups: tanking or pulling?

[Bubbles]

Neither class solos well. Neither class solos much at all without heavy twinking. From your post I'm under the assumption you aren't being bankrolled by a high level pet caster. Beg a Sword of Skyfire/Silver Swifthand from tunnel rats, it will go a long way.

Both ensure you incredible DKP bang for the buck due to the lack of competition in your class once you hit raiding level.

If you are playing the long game, carry on and invest in plenty of red bull. Just understand that there's a 99.95% chance you will burn out trying to solo beyond EC mobs with level 50 buffbots. :)

[Danth]

Saying Rangers can't solo past low levels without extreme high-level gear seems like a Kunark-era statement. Panic Animal allows the Ranger class to solo all the way to the level cap if he so chooses. The level 10-22 range might be the most difficult part of the Ranger's life, as far as solo experience is concerned. Past that he can solo most any time he likes, with little in the way of equipment. It's not particularly quick--roughly half to two-thirds the experience rate of a quadding Druid--and naturally limited to animals, but entirely viable.

Paladins solo only slowly beyond low levels, and trying to solo past about level 45-50 or so on the class serves little purpose except for the player to say he did. I do not regard solo leveling as a particularly useful means of gaining experience past the mid/upper 40's for this class.

Between the two classes, you pick Ranger if you want to be a light melee with a spellbook, and Paladin if you want to tank for normal groups. Both classes, particularly the Ranger, are somewhat under-rated during Velious by a community which in many cases hasn't altered it's leftover perceptions created during 4 years of Kunark.

Danth

[Raev]

Having never played a ranger, I don't understand why they couldn't solo well. Earthcaller is 50% slow, Dark Cloak of the Sky is 40% self haste, damage shield + dual wield should approach solo monk damage, Swiftwind has a solid ratio, all velious armor has huge AC, and Chloroplast at 55 is 2/3 of a fungi. You aren't going to walk into that gear at L50 but I would imagine it would come relatively quickly joining most semi-casual guilds like AG or Fires.

I'm mostly not a big soloer any more, but I like to be able to handle entrance mobs rather than going AFK for hours LFG, and I would think Rangers would fit the bill there. Especially I'd be curious to see if Rangers could root/snare/camp out and split say the sebilis entrance.

[Freakish]

Earthcaller is great and even better when it procs. Velious armor has lots of ac but our def cap is capped at 200 so those mobs hit hard. Dark cloak of the sky doesn't seem to rot / isn't sold so you'll get one if you join a guild that does sky, it just might take a while. They can definitely solo but it's nothing close to a monks level.

[Cecily]

Epics / Dark Cloak of the Sky / Fungi = solo to lv 60 pre-Velious.

[Aaramis]

I'm mostly not a big soloer any more, but I like to be able to handle entrance mobs rather than going AFK for hours LFG, and I would think Rangers would fit the bill there. Especially I'd be curious to see if Rangers could root/snare/camp out and split say the sebilis entrance.

With the gear you mentioned, they should easily be able to do that.
Root park the add (melee preferably); melee/nuke down the other. Re-root as needed. Then either self-heal and tackle #2, or camp out to reset aggro and split the spawn times up a bit.

Problem is, for the majority of Rangers out there, Earthcaller + Dark Cloak + Fungi aren't exactly within reach. Which suddenly makes soloing a lot trickier.

[Pint]

I have a 47 ranger with epics, sky cloak and a fungi and uts still not as efficient as everyone is making it out to be. It's doable but the toon still struggles to do dmg fast enough and takes a lot of damage.

Also while rangers are the second best class in norrath, paladins are by far first, so you should probably just make a paladin and make norrath great again.

[Jimjam]

With the gear you mentioned, they should easily be able to do that.
Root park the add (melee preferably); melee/nuke down the other. Re-root as needed. Then either self-heal and tackle #2, or camp out to reset aggro and split the spawn times up a bit.

Problem is, for the majority of Rangers out there, Earthcaller + Dark Cloak + Fungi aren't exactly within reach. Which suddenly makes soloing a lot trickier.

I think you are missing the trick here; mobs don't path back to their spawn until snare fades, so you can use snare to 'root' a single mob at a zonline, provided you can double zone before snare fades.

[Aaramis]

I think you are missing the trick here; mobs don't path back to their spawn until snare fades, so you can use snare to 'root' a single mob at a zonline, provided you can double zone before snare fades.

Yep, I know. Far easier to root it (if a non-caster), and then wave at it while you camp out to reset aggro. Ensnare not required, although you could use it if you'd prefer to park it at a certain spot for when you log back in.

Anyways, we're digressing.

[jolanar]

If you do want to tank I'd say Paladin hands down over Ranger.

Ranger soloing is overrated IMO. Ranger skill caps are sad, especially their defense. Fear kiting as a melee is a miserable existence and Velious mobs have WAY too much hp. Granted, at least you have the option, where as Paladins will be dependent on groups.

[kaev]

Ranger:
1) Make friends with every Shaman you ever meet. Rangers are light duty tanks, Shaman slow makes tanking light duty. Shaman slow is lots of agro, about 2 Flame Licks worth of agro, Flame Lick costs a whopping 10 mana to cast. Snare is also good agro and cheap to cast and useful for its effect. Rangers can tank, they have fantastic agro, but without a slower ranger tanking steadily weakens after low levels.
2) AC is your friend. When your Shaman pal fails to stick his slow on the first cast you are gonna eat some extra attacks.
3) Fun class to play. It's fun figuring out how to solo stuff, it's fun pulling in outdoor dungeons, it's fun tanking, it's fun doing ghetto CC. (Some people like fear kiting and agro kiting. For me, kiting with melee chasers can go drown at the bottom of the deepest ocean and be forever forgotten because chasing mobs around for hours on end is just gawdawful stupid tedious.)

Paladin:
1) Befriend Enchanters and learn how to effectively and efficiently keep them alive.
2) If you ever worry about your dps, you're doing it wrong. You are about agro, so you do want good ratio weapons, you just don't care about the actual damage output as opposed to the agro generated (parsing will make you a sad panda.)
3) AC is king, you always want more of it.
4) HP is queen once you start grouping with L39+ clerics, at that point +Sta/+HP items are very interesting. +Wis/+Mana are ok, but limited in value. The depth of your mana pool doesn't come in to play very often because you will rarely "med full" like the priests and casters sitting all the time (breaking tough camps tho, whether you're doing the paci-pulling or the ghetto CC on the overpull, a deeper manapool can help.) +Agi is such a teeny bit of extra AC that it doesn't really matter. +Str is good for avoiding trashing your AC by being encumbered, after that it's just a teeny bit of extra damage and from mid-levels on your damage will steadily degrade from mediocre to awful. +Dex is of some value when using a weapon with a good agro proc (it'll save on mana.) +Cha is worthy (at least in the form of a couple +cha items available to swap in) due to pacify mechanics.

[Jimjam]

Kaev what are you spending your mana on in groups (as ranger)?

I find when I have an enchanter with me I have a surplus of mana, which often ends up being used to ineffectively patch heal, or to feed a shaman's canni (so they can cast actually useful/expensive spells like slow).
I'm asking this question from a pre-60 perspective. Snare and flame lick are so cheap!

Yep, I know. Far easier to root it (if a non-caster), and then wave at it while you camp out to reset aggro. Ensnare not required, although you could use it if you'd prefer to park it at a certain spot for when you log back in.

Anyways, we're digressing.

Ah, apologies for thinking you were unaware of this.... hopefully someone will find my previous post useful!

[Raev]

Kaev what are you spending your mana on in groups (as ranger)?

I think you misread him.

1, he's talking about his Paladin, which presumably can burn mana much faster with stuns, group heal, superior heal, etc

2, every group is better with a charming Enchanter, and Paladins are probably tied with Clerics in terms of their ability to keep Enchanters alive: they can stun charmed pets and HP buff almost as well, and also make mez breaks a breeze

[Jimjam]

Yea, I think I jumped between his lists a bit.

It's still a good question for rangers, I'm finding it hard to spend my mana at regenerate when buffed.

[Stonewallx39]

From a more meta "what will make me happy" perspective,

As a paladin you will have a clear role in a group and have the capacity to be a truly magnificent tank once your skill sets develop. You will always feel sad without a group around you, but will have a chance to be the hero deep in a dungeon one day.

Rangers will never have a very clear role/need in a group. They can do many things suprisigly well but no one thing (shy of tracking) that another class couldn't do better. A great ranger can be a amazing asset in a group and fill a variety of needs, you will just have to open some eyes to be given the chance.

Rangers experience a lot of unique adventure that others may miss. Tracking, invis, sow, and levitate means that you can see things and go places that many others can't or won't experience. In a game as vast and amazing as Everquest that's a pretty potent combo.

In the end do what makes you happy.

[kaev]

Yea, I think I jumped between his lists a bit.

It's still a good question for rangers, I'm finding it hard to spend my mana at regenerate when buffed.

I've been in groups with my Ranger where I was fm most of the time, because enchanters are silly OP and also hate +dmg roots, and you don't want to pull agro off the warrior like some spoony monk twink, ..., it does get boring playing ranger in a group that needs nothing more than an occasional snare from your lovely toolbox. I mean, it just isn't very special to outdamage a Warrior by a bit.

Of course, the Ranger hate on p99 is very very strong, so most of my Ranger's xp has been gained solo. (The XP penalty hurt, a lot, when it was in force.) v0v

But Shamans, man. Ranger+Enchanter synergy is limited, and Clerics get very whiny about Ranger damage intake, but a Shaman is a Ranger's bestestest friend. Sadly, you are in competition with Warriors and Monks who mistakenly believe that the Shaman is their best friend. But when you get the action going outdoors with Shaman+Ranger the fun doesn't stop until you pass out at the keyboard.

[Jauna]

Being a Paladin while leveling up:
YOU ARE THE QUEEN GOD KING OF SNAP AGRO FROM LEVEL NINE TO LEVEL FIFTY-NINE YOU CAN MAKE BOTH DRUID AND SHAMAN HEALERS WORK BECAUSE YOU CAN ALSO FUCKING HEAL AND YOU GET THIS BITCHING HOT AT FIFTY-NINE AS YOU ROCK SHIT WITH SELF SYMBOLS, LULL PULLING, ROOT CC AND STUNNING CASTERS UNTIL THEY DIIIIE

Being a paladin at level 60:
You are a Divine Strength buffbot who can provide somewhat poor to mediocre raid heals when you get put into the straggler group with a druid and nonrogue/monks. People may allow you to tank hate/fear trash if you are in full w/ntov geared however, maybe.

Now..

Being a Ranger while leveling up:
JESUS GOD WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME STOP FUCKING HITTING ME OH SHIT EVERYTHING SLOWS DOWN AT LEVEL 20 AND I CANT BUFF, ATTACK OR HEAL WORTH A SHIT FUCKING CRAB SHIT CAKES FIFTH SNARE RESIST WHY AM I A THING FUCK YEAH BEING A PULLER IN OUTDOOR ZONES LIKE MISTMOORE, COM AND KARNORS HARMONY IS AMAZING UNTIL I RUN OUT OF ARROWS

edit: Once you get to level 22 you can fear kite animals to level up which makes this whole ordeal somewhat easier and quite enjoyable when you realize most older exp zones are taken over by fungi twinks and PL bots

Being a Ranger at level 60:
Strength of Nature, Call of the Predator and Call of Earth buffbot for the real DPS/tank classes, you do alright damage, your heals still suck and your snares still get resisted but you provide three great buffs for a raid. Your clicky cloak is nice for 6man groups but bards/shams can pump out the same haste % while enchanters will make your cloak a bagspace takerupper

[Trelaboon]

You might as well be asking "Druid or Rogue?"

Paladin and Ranger are going to be so different in how they are played that it's really gonna come down to whether you like pulling nonstop or sitting in the group waiting for mobs to come so you can tank them. On my Ranger I only melee mobs until they're like 80% health, then I go find another so the pulls never slow down.

Ranger is definitely more fun in the raid scene, but only just a little bit.

[Jimjam]

Being a Paladin while leveling up:
YOU ARE THE QUEEN GOD KING OF SNAP AGRO FROM LEVEL NINE TO LEVEL FIFTY-NINE YOU CAN MAKE BOTH DRUID AND SHAMAN HEALERS WORK BECAUSE YOU CAN ALSO FUCKING HEAL AND YOU GET THIS BITCHING HOT AT FIFTY-NINE AS YOU ROCK SHIT WITH SELF SYMBOLS, LULL PULLING, ROOT CC AND STUNNING CASTERS UNTIL THEY DIIIIE

Being a paladin at level 60:
You are a Divine Strength buffbot who can provide somewhat poor to mediocre raid heals when you get put into the straggler group with a druid and nonrogue/monks. People may allow you to tank hate/fear trash if you are in full w/ntov geared however, maybe.

Now..

Being a Ranger while leveling up:
JESUS GOD WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME STOP FUCKING HITTING ME OH SHIT EVERYTHING SLOWS DOWN AT LEVEL 20 AND I CANT BUFF, ATTACK OR HEAL WORTH A SHIT FUCKING CRAB SHIT CAKES FIFTH SNARE RESIST WHY AM I A THING FUCK YEAH BEING A PULLER IN OUTDOOR ZONES LIKE MISTMOORE, COM AND KARNORS HARMONY IS AMAZING UNTIL I RUN OUT OF ARROWS

edit: Once you get to level 22 you can fear kite animals to level up which makes this whole ordeal somewhat easier and quite enjoyable when you realize most older exp zones are taken over by fungi twinks and PL bots

Being a Ranger at level 60:
Strength of Nature, Call of the Predator and Call of Earth buffbot for the real DPS/tank classes, you do alright damage, your heals still suck and your snares still get resisted but you provide three great buffs for a raid. Your clicky cloak is nice for 6man groups but bards/shams can pump out the same haste % while enchanters will make your cloak a bagspace takerupper

I actually found my ranger had zero problems tanking in groups while levelling up, all the way through to the early 40s. Only at this point, where defence skill ups stop dead does tankiness really start to diminish... Or maybe that is just when things start to hit harder?

I kept a focus on AC and Str during these levels. (mitigation, loot whoreing and alleged marginal dps increase).

Both paladin and ranger get damage-less aggro spells (blind/stun and snare), making them stack nicely with enchanters. Paladins flourish a little later with their damage-less root, which really ensures CCd mobs don't chase after the enc. The ranger has to rely on the memblur component of mez failing, or spamming snare on mezzed adds.


I took a look at my logs for 20k+ of damage to my ranger and a few paladins tanking some of the tougher mobs in KC (Spectral Protectors, Spectral Knights, Skeletal Warlord, Skeletal Scryer, Skeletal Protectors, Skeletal Captain, Skeletal Berserker, Knight of Sathir, Hangnail, Decayed Prisoners, Caller of Sathir, A Drolvarg Warlord, a drolvarg captain, a drolvarg bodyguard, a cursed hand, a construct).

Paladin 1 (level 51)
Average hit 70,
Real hits 53%

Ranger (lvl 52-53)
Average hit 64
Real hits 51%

Paladin 2 (level 55)
Average hit 66
Real hits 43%

Paladin3 (level 56)
Average hit 66
Real hits 46%

Looking at this, it seems on an 'in the field basis' the ranger can accumulate sufficient worn AC to mitigate decently enough in the early 50s (maybe the ranger was also better at stacking spell AC? The group had druids and necromancers healing throughout, so luckily the lower total HP wasn't so important), but is held back in terms of avoidance (perhaps due to the lower defence skill).

[Jimjam]

As a follow up post, a 51 paladin fighting lvl 47-48 mobs under the late velious era AC system should classically take an average hit of 73, be hit 50% of the time (after skill evasion). This is what was posted by a live dev just after it was revamped in the luclin/pop era (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48312).

I found all the KC monsters that are frequently in the 47-48 range and took a look at how it would pan out compared to live using the 51 paladin from my logs. I assumed he had sufficient AC to exceed the soft cap because p99 mudflation.

Av Hit: 74 (live 73)
Skill evasion: 9.7% (11.5)
Hits: 59%* (61)

*for this figure I used number of hits divided by the number of swings that weren't skill evaded

I found this pretty interesting as it actually pans out very close to the dev-parsed figures on live (presuming I interpreted their definition of 'hits' correctly). Even the % max hit eyeballs as pretty close to correct (12% vs 10.5%), but with the way I've collected my data I will not attempt to produce an accurate figure.

Props to the p99 devs for doing a good job here, and don't let people tell you AC is broken (at this level / against xp mobs at least)! The live parses were meant to have cleric AC and shaman agi buffs on though. Also, weren't hybrids under slightly better skill caps in luclin than this p1999 point? so while perhaps not entirely perfect, pretty darn close.

The 51 paladin took about 11% more damage per hit than the 56 and was hit 23% more often.

For reference, the ranger (52-53 during this time)

Av hit :68
skill evasion: 11%
hit rate: 60%

Which perhaps makes sense (high AC cap makes better mitigation, but lower defence skill means lower hit rate)?

Sadly no ranger live data given. I would have liked to see that (though it would have been with substantially different skill caps)!

My logs had about 10-25k damage per player, which works out as ~300-600 swings each, which isn't a great sample size so salt to taste!

Anyway, TLDR; Armour for xp content seems to be working as live did. Both classes can mitigate/avoid okay early 50s. Ranger perhaps slightly weaker due to less hp?

[Danth]

Right. Rangers have a smaller hit point pool so they're a little more vulnerable to burst damage (spells or harm touch, typically) than Paladins. Rangers also lack the Paladin's ability to chain-stun opponents at will, so the Paladin's also a lot less vulnerable to things like late complete heals or unslowed monsters and also stops healer opponents much more easily than the Ranger. That being said, comparing the two classes within the tank role seems rather academic; the group tank job is at best a secondary concern for the Ranger class whilst it's the Paladin's main purpose.

Danth

[Jimjam]

Yes, I've noticed paladins also synergise very well with enchanters, able to damageless stun/root/FoL mobs in camp to give the enc breathing room.

All a ranger can really do in this situation is try to take aggro with snare and that is it.

Paladin is objectively the better tank (for your reasons and more) but rangers are passable tanks for far longer than they are given credit for.

If you specifically want to tank then unless you are planning to form all your own groups I would recommend against rolling a ranger. Not cos they are particularly bad; as I've noted they are actually good for most of the levels and passable even later on. However, the meta is against them tanking in so far as you are not going to receive group invites to tank with a ranger.

Sure, you might be asked to tank so the monk can pull (often a mistake imho, monk tanking and dps far outstrips that of most classes and rangers can pull sufficiently well in many areas). Or maybe if the 'real' tank has gone afk or had to split (note if the afk tank is a warrior, just root park the mob on his toes as you would be doing otherwise and let him tank it while afk). However, in these situations you will be asked to tank with rolling eyes, 'thank god I have clarity' and so on.

[kaev]

Sure, you might be asked to tank so the monk can pull (often a mistake imho, monk tanking and dps far outstrips that of most classes and rangers can pull sufficiently well in many areas). Or maybe if the 'real' tank has gone afk or had to split (note if the afk tank is a warrior, just root park the mob on his toes as you would be doing otherwise and let him tank it while afk). However, in these situations you will be asked to tank with rolling eyes, 'thank god I have clarity' and so on.

With choice between Ranger & Monk to tank you're gonna get more mileage having the Monk dps and the Ranger tank in many situations, pretty much always if you have a slower, as Ranger has the cheap agro spells to take and hold agro so the slower can slow early in the fight and monk (and any other dps) can go all out dps from the mob's backside.

Of course, if you have no slower & heals are weak and the Monk has decent AC gear and the Ranger is wearing promqueen gear (str & dex instead of ac & hp), the Monk tank option looks pretty attractive. Even moreso if you're in an outdoor dungeon so the Ranger gets easy single pulls with harmony.

[Jimjam]

That seems a fair summary.

[Aaramis]

With choice between Ranger & Monk to tank you're gonna get more mileage having the Monk dps and the Ranger tank in many situations, pretty much always if you have a slower, as Ranger has the cheap agro spells to take and hold agro so the slower can slow early in the fight and monk (and any other dps) can go all out dps from the mob's backside.

Of course, if you have no slower & heals are weak and the Monk has decent AC gear and the Ranger is wearing promqueen gear (str & dex instead of ac & hp), the Monk tank option looks pretty attractive. Even moreso if you're in an outdoor dungeon so the Ranger gets easy single pulls with harmony.

Very true on aggro. Rangers have all the necessary tools to taunt and hold aggro. Taunt button. Snare. Flame lick. Fast speed weapons.

As for promqueen gear, you're far more likely to see Monks wearing it than Rangers. Ranger gear is pretty cheap and decent for what you get (Ry'gorr, Sebilite Scale) and still has ok AC on it. Tolan's is pretty cheap too, and most Rangers probably have a piece of this or 2. Plus they get their own self-buff line, as Druids do, for AC + damage shield, which further boosts their AC.

Unlike the 135901735097 monks running around in black pantherskin, often over their weight allowance, and rely purely on others to buff their AC.