Does damage create hate?

[Ransurian]

Most people I've run across believe that damage creates hate / threat / aggro, but I've heard a few people say that damage dealt doesn't actually influence one's threat generation. Taken to its logical extreme, would this not imply that -- for example -- a naked player with zero weapon skill could create more aggro than someone who's doing lots of damage to a target, assuming the naked player's weapon has a slightly better ratio?

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Yes.

[Doctor Jeff]

Yes.

Hi, Yuuvy!

Hope things are swell.

Happy holidays and all that!

[RDawg816]

Yes.

The topic question, or the question at the end of his post....which are you answering? :D

[Dolalin]

Have you ever had a mob turn on you after you landed a couple massive crits? Yeah, me neither. Damage is irrelevant. I hold aggro just as well in Evasive as not.

[Jmcwrestling]

White Damage Matters

[Jimjam]

When levelling up melee skills I've never noticed a drop in aggro when switching from a decently skilled weapon to a badly skilled weapon of similar ratio.

I've always understood aggro to be based off swings, not the actual damage done (if any at all).

That said, I've heard +str can affect aggro, I'm dubious of that claim, but if it is true it might still have a consistent effect regardless of weapon skill.

[RDawg816]

That said, I've heard +str can affect aggro, I'm dubious of that claim, but if it is true it might still have a consistent effect regardless of weapon skill.
It's supposed to be based off potential (max) damage, right? Strength would raise that, yes?

[Jmcwrestling]

Well you build hate with each swing but I think the reason it looks like it doesn't is because you are in a race to the top with everyone else who is dealing dmg , therefore without a way to jump ahead (procs, taunts, etc) or some else falls behind (FD, evade, jolt, concussion) you never catch up. But yes if you hit/swing at a mob enough you will build enough hate ... eventually.

[skarlorn]

pretty sure 1 point of damage is 1 point of hate

[Sage Truthbearer]

Aggro is built with each swing. Even if you missed and did 0 damage, it still generates hate.

[Fragged]

White dmg is the king of agro, if rogues and monks didn't evade, then they would be tanking.

As a monk I can take agro over a warrior (almost) whenever I please (this is with 2x 15/18 fists and primal).

[Dolalin]

White dmg is the king of agro, if rogues and monks didn't evade, then they would be tanking.

As a monk I can take agro over a warrior (almost) whenever I please (this is with 2x 15/18 fists and primal).


Correlation vs causation.

Monks pull agg because you're swinging 1:1 ratio weaps and clicking your epic haste all the time. That ratio plus that swing rate = hate.

That swing rate correlates to Damage, but it's not raw damage causing the hate.

This is such an easy thing to test as a war. Turn on Evasive disc, do you pull less agg? The answer is no, and it has to be no, or it would break the class, wouldn't it? Same with defensive.

[xKoopa]

Why would evasive affect aggro from hitting mobs?

Every swing you generate aggro based on what max hit can be(miss, 1 dmg, max hit all same aggro)

[Dolalin]

Why would evasive affect aggro from hitting mobs?

Every swing you generate aggro based on what max hit can be(miss, 1 dmg, max hit all same aggro)

Yep. Thanks for the backup. :)

[silo32]

does a bear shit in the woods

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Hi, Yuuvy!

Hope things are swell.

Happy holidays and all that!

My man.
Good to see you and same to you.

[Fragged]

Correlation vs causation.

Monks pull agg because you're swinging 1:1 ratio weaps and clicking your epic haste all the time. That ratio plus that swing rate = hate.

That swing rate correlates to Damage, but it's not raw damage causing the hate.

This is such an easy thing to test as a war. Turn on Evasive disc, do you pull less agg? The answer is no, and it has to be no, or it would break the class, wouldn't it? Same with defensive.

1. Both the warrior, monk and the rogue is haste caped at the same cap, clicking the monk epic will not bring you over this cap.

2. So going back to me saying that I can take agro (almost) whenever I want, does this mean that you are saying that my few extra swings (and not the dmg) from 2x18 delay weps yield more agro than a warriors 24 and 22 delay (trident and epic) PLUS hate procs? - If this was true, wouldn't it be better for a warrior to just use lower delay weapons as well then (with not procs? - Since by your logic that alone is what is enabling me to generate MORE agro than the warrior including hate procs.

[Dolalin]

Monks have higher skill caps than a warrior (more chances to swing), plus your flying kick is more of an agg than warrior kick/bash. That's the difference you're seeing. Again, this is correlated to DPS, but not causal. And yes, depending on the procs, you may indeed out agg a warrior, especially if he's not haste capped, which is harder for a war than a monk. It depends on the setup.

For warriors, the definitive test for this is, do you pull less agg with Evasive or Defensive up? Try it. You don't.

[xKoopa]

Dolalin, why would a warrior not getting hit or getting hit for less damage affect his aggro generation? Ignoring procs, its potential dmg per swing that generates aggro

If you have a war and a monk with same ratio weps/stats, the monk will outaggro because of higher skill caps resulting in more swings

Every swing regardless of hit/miss generates a flat amount of aggro dependent on what the max possible hit was


At least this is how it was always explained to me, feel free to correct me if wrong

[Jimjam]

Dolalin, why would a warrior not getting hit or getting hit for less damage affect his aggro generation? Ignoring procs, its potential dmg per swing that generates aggro

If you have a war and a monk with same ratio weps/stats, the monk will outaggro because of higher skill caps resulting in more swings

Every swing regardless of hit/miss generates a flat amount of aggro dependent on what the max possible hit was


At least this is how it was always explained to me, feel free to correct me if wrong

This is exactly his point. Defensive/evasive lower damage done by (as well as to) warriors but this lowered damage has no obvious effect on their aggro.
He is using the disc to show that it is swings, not actual damage, that matter.

[Dreenk317]

This is exactly his point. Defensive/evasive lower damage done by (as well as to) warriors but this lowered damage has no obvious effect on their aggro.
He is using the disc to show that it is swings, not actual damage, that matter.

I've always had it explained like this to me. Very simply put, one swing (hit or miss) generates one point of agro. I used to know a warrior on live back in the day that dreamed of 1 damage 5 delay weapon that would allow to him out agro everyone.

[lurk]

I find that Melee attack swing increses Hate by value of Damage + Damage Bonus. STR, ATK, DEX or Weapon Skill do not affect to Hate, so increased Hate is affected only by Weapon's DMG and Damage Bonus. There is no difference between Same level WAR / PAL / RNG classes, but caster class will make small Hate, because caster has no Damage Bonus. For melee class, Damage Bonus is changed by level, so increased Hate is changed by level, too. There is no Damage Bonus for Left Hand Weapon, so Left Hand Weapon increases fewer Hate than Right Hand Weapon

In depth agro tests, beyond era but still should be accurate


http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/melee_e.htm

[xKoopa]

This is exactly his point. Defensive/evasive lower damage done by (as well as to) warriors but this lowered damage has no obvious effect on their aggro.
He is using the disc to show that it is swings, not actual damage, that matter.

Ok, that makes sense. I wasn't aware the discs lowered damage output

[Fragged]

I find that Melee attack swing increses Hate by value of Damage + Damage Bonus. STR, ATK, DEX or Weapon Skill do not affect to Hate, so increased Hate is affected only by Weapon's DMG and Damage Bonus. There is no difference between Same level WAR / PAL / RNG classes, but caster class will make small Hate, because caster has no Damage Bonus. For melee class, Damage Bonus is changed by level, so increased Hate is changed by level, too. There is no Damage Bonus for Left Hand Weapon, so Left Hand Weapon increases fewer Hate than Right Hand Weapon

In depth agro tests, beyond era but still should be accurate


http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/melee_e.htm

White dmg is king of agro.

[kaev]

White dmg is king of agro.

false

It is swings modified by weapon base damage stat and level damage bonus, not hits nor damage amounts, that determines melee agro.

On any given swing you can miss, you can crit/crip, you can hit for 1 or 10 or 100, it's all the same agro.

This is about agro generated by ordinary melee attacks. Spells, including procs, and BackStab are different. Monk special kicks might be different, I have seen no agro data on them.

A L40 warrior with a jade mace mainhand will generate [(9*2)+5] agro per swing, if double attack fires he'll have 2 swings and generate twice the agro.

Off-hand gets no damage bonus. Bards, Priests, Casters, & any sub-27 char also get no damage bonus. With no bonus the agro generated is just double the base damage of the weapon. Off-hand weapons generate agro only when dual wield fires, no agro unless you actually swing the weapon.

There is a modifier for 2H weapon agro, it might be 0.7. If the 0.7 modifier is correct, a L25 warrior wielding a Staff of Battle will generate [((31*2)*0.7)] agro per swing.

Compare these swing values to the 1/1 agro for a dd proc (so the 80hp lifetap on Bloodpoint is +80 agro), and the ~ 400 agro for a stun (so the ykesha proc is ~ 400+75 agro). Dunno if anybody has parsed agro for other debuffs here (like the one on Frostbringer), but on live they were similar to stun (maybe a bit less, can't recall). At any rate the Frostbringer proc here seems to me approximately correct in its extra agro.

[Fragged]

Interesting.

[Ransurian]

false

It is swings modified by weapon base damage stat and level damage bonus, not hits nor damage amounts, that determines melee agro.

On any given swing you can miss, you can crit/crip, you can hit for 1 or 10 or 100, it's all the same agro.

This is about agro generated by ordinary melee attacks. Spells, including procs, and BackStab are different. Monk special kicks might be different, I have seen no agro data on them.

A L40 warrior with a jade mace mainhand will generate [(9*2)+5] agro per swing, if double attack fires he'll have 2 swings and generate twice the agro.

Off-hand gets no damage bonus. Bards, Priests, Casters, & any sub-27 char also get no damage bonus. With no bonus the agro generated is just double the base damage of the weapon. Off-hand weapons generate agro only when dual wield fires, no agro unless you actually swing the weapon.

There is a modifier for 2H weapon agro, it might be 0.7. If the 0.7 modifier is correct, a L25 warrior wielding a Staff of Battle will generate [((31*2)*0.7)] agro per swing.

Compare these swing values to the 1/1 agro for a dd proc (so the 80hp lifetap on Bloodpoint is +80 agro), and the ~ 400 agro for a stun (so the ykesha proc is ~ 400+75 agro). Dunno if anybody has parsed agro for other debuffs here (like the one on Frostbringer), but on live they were similar to stun (maybe a bit less, can't recall). At any rate the Frostbringer proc here seems to me approximately correct in its extra agro.

I don't believe there's a 2H modifier in terms of aggro. I hold aggro with my axe of lost souls better than I do with lammy / GJB, even when I'm getting tons of double attacks and DW procs. In fact, I was routinely stealing and holding aggro from a warrior using wurmslayer / green jade mace in a group the other day while using my axe, and he was using SCHW. At the time, I didn't have a haste item. Something to think about.