In regards to monopolizing a spawn

[Ikon]

Date : 10/03/2000

Topic : Play Nice, Or...

This came of the official EverQuest message boards.
Kill Stealing Policy :

Kill Stealing is now officially defined as Killing an NPC or Mob for any reason, that is already attacking another player. Any player that is caught intentionally kill stealing by a guide or GM may now be warned. These warnings when accumulated, can lead to the player being suspended or banned from EverQuest by a GM.

Play Nice Policy :

Spawns in the game can no longer be claimed or controlled by a single player or group. Whether it is a single or multiple spawn, for an item or for XP, low or high level, all groups wishing to camp a spawn must work out some type of rotation or means to share the spawn.

This information somehow got leaked before we were ready to comment on it, hence it showing up on the boards before we had a chance to talk to you about it.
I'll have a new Producer's Letter up early next week to address the new rules, how they are going to be enforced, and the spirit behind the letter.

- Gordon
Classic.

https://web.archive.org/web/20021130120342/http://magecompendium.com/

[Computer Man]

Who's up for splitting the AC spawn in OOT... we take alternate turns every 2nd spawn?

This is great.

[Ikon]

Who's up for splitting the AC spawn in OOT... we take alternate turns every 2nd spawn?

This is great.
:) I think it was more, you get your ring, you can't corpse it and jump straight back onto the mob if someone is waiting. If your sitting in hate or fear perma-camping epic mobs same thing, this should not be happening if we're under classic rules. And it appears you couldnt' simply have an alt take over, or even a guildie, the rules refer to both individuals and groups.

Definitely imo, this is what is missing from this server, there was a reason the camping on this server didn't happen on live and I believe this was it, date is just prior to Kunark.

Question is will the staff ignore this?

Edit: I need to try to find the letter Gordon Wrinn (http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,67156/) is referring to

[Computer Man]

all groups wishing to camp a spawn must work out some type of rotation or means to share the spawn.

Not sharing bro? I'm typing that petition

[paulgiamatti]

Yeah I don't think anything is gonna change, nor should it - the current server rules are as true to the spirit of this as they can possibly be under a volunteer staff. Those GMs earned a living to enforce rules.

And keep in mind, rules like that didn't exist in a vacuum - P99 is a distant echo of PvE culture on live EQ, distorted to the point of near unrecognizability. People paid money to play EQ back then. Times were simpler; MMOs were new and exciting and players were wide-eyed and humble. The game was a much more serious investment, and as a result people were much more willing to find something else to do in the game instead of breathe down another group's neck like a bunch of pixel-starved dildos. That shit still happened, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't the near-given that it is on P99.

[Ikon]

Found it - Linkage (http://www.network54.com/Search/view/6204/953127207/EQ'ers+you+will+want+to+read+this+-+long?term=200T&page=51370)

Yeah I don't think anything is gonna change, nor should it - the current server rules are as true to the spirit of this as they can possibly be under a volunteer staff. Those GMs earned a living to enforce rules.

And keep in mind, rules like that didn't exist in a vacuum - P99 is a distant echo of PvE culture on live EQ, distorted to the point of near unrecognizability. People paid money to play EQ back then. Times were simpler; MMOs were new and exciting and players were wide-eyed and humble. The game was a much more serious investment, and as a result people were much more willing to find something else to do in the game instead of breathe down another group's neck like a bunch of pixel-starved dildos. That shit still happened, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't the near-given that it is on P99.
I'm confused at the "nor should it", the aim of the server was to provide a classic everquest experience. Over the last week I've seen a lot of pro-farmer pro-monopolizing spawn posters saying pretty much "its classic, screw you". Now I'm providing irrefutable evidence its not classic.

So the "its classic" should only apply to things that were classic that benefit farmers but not to things that don't benefit them?

This is the reason they changed it, so they didn't end up with a server much like we have at the moment, good people mostly but with a bunch at the top shitting on the rest - From the letter I linked:

Also like any society, we have our underbelly, a relatively small number of people who live to prey upon the honorable. It is frequently the goal of these people to see to their desires, no matter the effect of their actions upon others around them. They are the ones who claim ownership of servers, zones, or spawns, and cause or threaten harm to anyone who does not share their disregard and contempt. They are the ones who live, not to enjoy the game with everyone else, but to enjoy at everyone else’s expense.

For the first few months after EverQuest’s release, we felt that a policy of non-interference in many of these matters was warranted. However, we continued to lose good players. This was not due to any deficiency or dissatisfaction in the game, but due to dissatisfaction with the treatment that they received from their fellow players, and the perceived inability of our Customer Service department to intervene. Late last year, we made a commitment to our players to begin playing an active role in many of these situations.

[Computer Man]

Contested Spawns
There are cases where two or more groups wish to kill the same thing. In these cases, the groups are required to compromise. If an equitable compromise cannot be reached between the players prior to EverQuest Customer Service Staff involvement, the EQCSR will mandate a binding compromise. Refusing to abide by a compromise mandated by an EQCSR will be considered disruption. It is therefore strongly suggested that the groups make every attempt to reach a compromise that they can live with prior to involving an EQCSR, who may mandate a compromise that does not suit you to the extent that a player-devised compromise would.

Kind of goes against what was said earlier regarding sharing, interesting posts

[paulgiamatti]

Nor should it, because the change implies an unreasonable amount of enforcement for a volunteer staff to carry out. I mean, sure, it ought to change simply by players taking the initiative to make it happen, but I'm writing that off for obvious reasons. By "nor should it" I only meant "nor should it be enforced on P99" - what we currently have is a decent compromise, but updating the server mandate to reflect this part and parcel would just burn out our guides and GMs. I'd rather have compromised enforcement than no enforcement at all.

[Ikon]

Nor should it, because the change implies an unreasonable amount of enforcement for a volunteer staff to carry out. I mean, sure, it ought to change simply by players taking the initiative to make it happen, but I'm writing that off for obvious reasons. By "nor should it" I only meant "nor should it be enforced on P99" - what we currently have is a decent compromise, but updating the server mandate to reflect this part and parcel would just burnout our guides and GMs. I'd rather have compromised enforcement than no enforcement at all.
I'm not quite sure how it would.

Currently what we have is a bunch of pixel lawyers taking up the GM / Guides time. If this change was implemented as it should be given it was classic and also given the behavior of a few people towards the rest of the server it would likely reduce the load on the GMs/Guides.

Getting hit with a week, month or permaban for repeated violations is superior to rule lawyering. The way it worked on live, if a guild member violated, they were warned and so was the guild leader, if they continued to behave badly the guild could be disbanded.

Only takes one or two events to teach people how to behave. Clearly the way its working here was the way Verant initially did it and they found it didn't work.

If its left the way it is, not-classic, then it would be good idea imo for MQ to be switched off to compensate.

[paulgiamatti]

I can't even imagine not being sure how it would.

You're way oversimplifying. It sounds easy on paper, and it'd be easy to enforce on a server that has an actual guide and GM presence who are working for a company that compensates them. It'd be a complete nightmare to enforce on P99. In an ideal world it would be as you say; reality is a dystopia. If you can't imagine the unending deluge of petitions about camp disputes following an implementation of this rule, then I have no idea what to tell you.

[skarlorn]

this would go over great in sebilis.

[Brontus]

Nor should it, because the change implies an unreasonable amount of enforcement for a volunteer staff to carry out.

It is only unreasonable given the current staffing level which I believe is too low to service the current server population here on P1999.

I say this because I was deeply involved with the EverQuest Guide Program for many years. I can tell from actual experience, each EQ live server had at least 3 times the number of volunteer guides that are currently assigned to P1999 if not more. We also had the benefit of the SWAT Team -- a special band of roving GMs, Senior Guides and Guides who would go from server to server to slay the petition queue of servers with high petition queues.

If the admins here are genuinely striving to create a classic EQ experience then the answer is to apply this admirable standard to all levels of the EQ experience including bringing the levels of GM/Guide staffing to EQ live levels which are historically accurate for the 1999-2001 time period.

Yes, enforcing the play nice policy took up a significant amount of our time but it was part of the job and worth it in the long run as players would stay in line and behave responsibly because they knew there were consequences. GM admins, Senior Guides, Guides were constantly doing investigations and gathering evidence on players that were violating these rules. We would make notes on each player account and eventually if a player accrued enough bad incidents on their file, the GMs would step in and ban them.

Policing a MMORPG like EQ that affords players a lot of freedom is not easy but it has to be done. That my friend is classic EverQuest and to me and many here, it's worth it.

Additionally, it's worth noting that back on EQ Live during that same classic time period, GM and volunteers did not have to spend any time on doing IP exemptions because 2 boxing was not illegal. The admins here have decided that 2 boxing is not allowed so that requirement has put additional stress on the volunteers here to process exemptions and investigate offenders. This is precious time they could be spending doing fun activities like running quests and events for the community.

To me the answer on many issues afflicting P1999 right is to increase staffing levels. Is managing volunteers easy? No. It takes a lot work, much organization and tireless dedication. Not everyone is cut out to be a GM or a Guide. We volunteered back in the day and we didn't get paid but we did it and we enjoyed it.

My undying respect goes out to the staff here on all levels for what they are doing. Being a volunteer is a thankless job and sometimes players hold you to impossible standards but it's very rewarding knowing that you are helping to create an unparalleled online experience that is simply not available anywhere else.

[Mythanor]

Found it - Linkage (http://www.network54.com/Search/view/6204/953127207/EQ'ers+you+will+want+to+read+this+-+long?term=200T&page=51370)


I'm confused at the "nor should it", the aim of the server was to provide a classic everquest experience. Over the last week I've seen a lot of pro-farmer pro-monopolizing spawn posters saying pretty much "its classic, screw you". Now I'm providing irrefutable evidence its not classic.

So the "its classic" should only apply to things that were classic that benefit farmers but not to things that don't benefit them?

This is the reason they changed it, so they didn't end up with a server much like we have at the moment, good people mostly but with a bunch at the top shitting on the rest - From the letter I linked:

[Ikon]

It is only unreasonable given the current staffing level which I believe is too low to service the current server population here on P1999.

I say this because I was deeply involved with the EverQuest Guide Program for many years. I can tell from actual experience, each EQ live server had at least 3 times the number of volunteer guides that are currently assigned to P1999 if not more. We also had the benefit of the SWAT Team -- a special band of roving GMs, Senior Guides and Guides who would go from server to server to slay the petition queue of servers with high petition queues.

If the admins here are genuinely striving to create a classic EQ experience then the answer is to apply this admirable standard to all levels of the EQ experience including bringing the levels of GM/Guide staffing to EQ live levels which are historically accurate for the 1999-2001 time period.

Yes, enforcing the play nice policy took up a significant amount of our time but it was part of the job and worth it in the long run as players would stay in line and behave responsibly because they knew there were consequences. GM admins, Senior Guides, Guides were constantly doing investigations and gathering evidence on players that were violating these rules. We would make notes on each player account and eventually if a player accrued enough bad incidents on their file, the GMs would step in and ban them.

Policing a MMORPG like EQ that affords players a lot of freedom is not easy but it has to be done. That my friend is classic EverQuest and to me and many here, it's worth it.

Additionally, it's worth noting that back on EQ Live during that same classic time period, GM and volunteers did not have to spend any time on doing IP exemptions because 2 boxing was not illegal. The admins here have decided that 2 boxing is not allowed so that requirement has put additional stress on the volunteers here to process exemptions and investigate offenders. This is precious time they could be spending doing fun activities like running quests and events for the community.

To me the answer on many issues afflicting P1999 right is to increase staffing levels. Is managing volunteers easy? No. It takes a lot work, much organization and tireless dedication. Not everyone is cut out to be a GM or a Guide. We volunteered back in the day and we didn't get paid but we did it and we enjoyed it.

My undying respect goes out to the staff here on all levels for what they are doing. Being a volunteer is a thankless job and sometimes players hold you to impossible standards but it's very rewarding knowing that you are helping to create an unparalleled online experience that is simply not available anywhere else.
I'd be more than happy to go through the volunteer guide process if we could get some classic rules on the server. I'm sure there are other responsible people who would too.

[RDawg816]

I say this because I was deeply involved with the EverQuest Guide Program for many years.

Policing a MMORPG like EQ that affords players a lot of freedom is not easy but it has to be done. That my friend is classic EverQuest and to me and many here, it's worth it.

To me the answer on many issues afflicting P1999 right is to increase staffing levels....
Not everyone is cut out to be a GM or a Guide. We volunteered back in the day and we didn't get paid but we did it and we enjoyed it.
Are you volunteering? There is an application you can fill out...

[paulgiamatti]

I will say that the current climate of the server is a lot better than it's ever been, and right now would be a great time to attempt something like another R/C rotation. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that even though this is true, the current staff just doesn't have the motivation to make it happen after having given it their all during the awful Kunark and pre-Sleeper years, or the manpower after having lost some of their most prolific GMs like Derubael and Eunomia. I don't blame them, especially while the two dominating guilds are still run by people who see denying content to other players as part of the fun, and anything less as carebear appeasement or "not hardcore enough". The main flaw of the project still isn't and has never been the staff, though of course they aren't perfect.

So I don't mean to say I'm happy about the status quo. The status quo sucks in many ways, which is why being optimistic about applying this rule to P99 doesn't make any sense. It would be disastrous. You can't rely on the playerbase to just make something like this work, or even just not fuck it up to the point that makes it anything less than a shitshow for the staff. It's a nice thought, but a bad idea.

[Leiker]

Having been casual scum for most of the Kunark years when one guild reigned supreme and locked down all content, the current server highend scene is really not that bad.

[Mythanor]

I think the OP had more in mind, then just "High End" content. It this it was more in reference to every day grouping/ spawns/ quests/ epics, etc... not just how many poop socks does it take to grow a neckbeard, and how fair/ unfair that is. Let's not get off track or muddle the waters.

[paulgiamatti]

*muddy the waters

And no, that's not off track at all because the amended play nice policy addressing camp disputes would extend to the raid scene as well. We all know the raid scene isn't the policy's primary concern, and that's because guilds mercilessly controlling end-game content, some of which isn't even raid content, was not an issue back then. If it was, the policy would've reflected that.

"Spawns in the game can no longer be claimed or controlled by a single player or group" is and has always been the exact antithesis of every dominant guild's MO on P99. TMO's charter literally read something like, "Our goal is to dominate the server." Absolutely nothing is different about A/A - it's the same bullshit under different names. It's also largely the reason why guides and GMs won't have the time or the desire to enforce a policy like this irrespective of the raid scene. When they're not doing item reimbursements, or character recoveries, or IP exemptions, or sussing out hackers and multi-boxers and RMTers, they're too busy dealing with this week's litany of ToV petitions. And I'm sure the queue of non-raid petitions involving player disputes isn't exactly empty either.

[TheDuck]

lol for everyone argueing against this, you guys are probably the ones monopolizing spawns.


i played blue, i remember. i could walk up to a camp, get on the list and eventually get my turn. not on blue. the rules are being manipulated so people can stay on it forever.

[paulgiamatti]

lol for everyone argueing against this, you guys are probably the ones monopolizing spawns.


i played blue, i remember. i could walk up to a camp, get on the list and eventually get my turn. not on blue. the rules are being manipulated so people can stay on it forever.

Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and safely assume that someone who doesn't know how to spell arguing didn't actually understand the crux of my argument.

[Boyblunder]

Why would you assume that? You use "gonna" lol.

[Vegittz]

@op that "post" was from a Sony 2000 announcement, you included the date stamp. This is project 1999, so by even your own argument, this wouldn't qualify as 'classic' as it is after the 1999 cutoff time.

Additionally, this policy obviously didn't work as a permanent solution. They eventually began instancing content. This proves that your "fix" is both not classic and also not a feasible solution to the issue.

What I hear out of Ikon is something along the line of "i cant poopsock because i have other responsibilities. that sucks. maybe there are enough other semi casuals out there who don't know the history of THIS server (not a Sony server, just a server looking to be close to what it was in 1999[not 2000, go to phinny]), who I can convince to complain enough that maybe ill get my own pixels from it." I got this all from your last few posts. I just summarized your arguments without your self righteous and pious word choices.

Additionally, I don't care for a response, Ikon, because your arguments wont stay on the same plane as the discussion and you will twist any conversation back to how this isn't classic enough for you, how someone else should do something about it, and how entitled you feel that your opinion is the "fact" the rest of us should use to base our own perspectives.

[paulgiamatti]

Why would you assume that? You use "gonna" lol.

Yeah I'm also gonna go ahead and safely assume that someone who insults the use of colloquialisms, especially on a 1999 elf simulator forum, has absolutely no concept of conversational literacy, and probably doesn't know what the word colloquial means.

[paulgiamatti]

@op that "post" was from a Sony 2000 announcement, you included the date stamp. This is project 1999, so by even your own argument, this wouldn't qualify as 'classic' as it is after the 1999 cutoff time.

This server is based on the classic thru Velious era, which was from 1999 until the end of 2001. The cutoff year is basically 2002.

[SirAlvarex]

The problem with the PnP isn't the rule itself - It's really great. It's the resources to enforce it. I'm with the posters who say it isn't possible here. But if it were it should be implemented.

PnP has been brought up multiple times in the past and has always been shot down because of the amount of work it'd entail to keep everyone in line. After having come back after a year however it feels like the top guilds are far less obsessive in their pixel hunting so it might be enforceable now. We've also entered a time where the "time locked" drops are no longer a thing. And with Velious there is usually enough hunting grounds where you can find XP in different zones instead of just Sebilis.

However we'd still need way more guides with the power to enforce it. Almost like a Play Nice Mafia (tm)

[Dreenk317]

@op that "post" was from a Sony 2000 announcement, you included the date stamp. This is project 1999, so by even your own argument, this wouldn't qualify as 'classic' as it is after the 1999 cutoff time.

Additionally, this policy obviously didn't work as a permanent solution. They eventually began instancing content. This proves that your "fix" is both not classic and also not a feasible solution to the issue.

What I hear out of Ikon is something along the line of "i cant poopsock because i have other responsibilities. that sucks. maybe there are enough other semi casuals out there who don't know the history of THIS server (not a Sony server, just a server looking to be close to what it was in 1999[not 2000, go to phinny]), who I can convince to complain enough that maybe ill get my own pixels from it." I got this all from your last few posts. I just summarized your arguments without your self righteous and pious word choices.

Additionally, I don't care for a response, Ikon, because your arguments wont stay on the same plane as the discussion and you will twist any conversation back to how this isn't classic enough for you, how someone else should do something about it, and how entitled you feel that your opinion is the "fact" the rest of us should use to base our own perspectives.

Way to argue a point without knowing what your talking about. Scars of velious (the last expansion we will see here at project 1999. Wasn't release until December 5, 2000. And was continually patched and updated for months after that. So this servers classic era extends well into 2001 as far as level of patches and updates go. Therefore OP's clip from the year 2000 is completely applicable to his argument. Especially considering that the devs have stated they are trying to emulate the classic Everquest experience. And rules put in place by the staff were definitely part of that experience.

[fastboy21]

You can't force people to play nice just by making a rule that tells them to share.

Its EQ. The game is open ended enough to allow players the freedom to abuse each other as much as to help each other. There is no way to fix this without throwing the baby out with the bathwater (they tried, it is called EQ2...).

That this server suffers from the exact same problems as EQ did on live is evidence that the devs have successfully recreated authentic EQ...and its a great game.

[Ikon]

You can't force people to play nice just by making a rule that tells them to share.

Its EQ. The game is open ended enough to allow players the freedom to abuse each other as much as to help each other. There is no way to fix this without throwing the baby out with the bathwater (they tried, it is called EQ2...).

That this server suffers from the exact same problems as EQ did on live is evidence that the devs have successfully recreated authentic EQ...and its a great game.
Umm, that's exactly what Verant did, forced people to share so you actually can. That website (https://web.archive.org/web/20021130120342/http://magecompendium.com/) is pretty good. Looked at a few links and found a bunch of stuff that is different on this server. Apparantly staff of temp and rod of insidious glamour got changed to cast time? Not sure if they here, wiki says not but might be outdated. Click on site map link, has a couple of years of dev posts pulled from sony.

[fastboy21]

Umm, that's exactly what Verant did, forced people to share so you actually can. That website (https://web.archive.org/web/20021130120342/http://magecompendium.com/) is pretty good. Looked at a few links and found a bunch of stuff that is different on this server. Apparantly staff of temp and rod of insidious glamour got changed to cast time? Not sure if they here, wiki says not but might be outdated. Click on site map link, has a couple of years of dev posts pulled from sony.

Saying they did it and actually doing it aren't the same. The only way EQ has ever prevented other players from being jerks to one another is to change content and design new content that made it hard or impossible to do it.

There was rare enforcement of policies resulting in some hard core offenders getting slapped, which already happens here. In fact, I feel look there is already much more enforcement here than there was on live.

[Ikon]

Saying they did it and actually doing it aren't the same. The only way EQ has ever prevented other players from being jerks to one another is to change content and design new content that made it hard or impossible to do it.

There was rare enforcement of policies resulting in some hard core offenders getting slapped, which already happens here. In fact, I feel look there is already much more enforcement here than there was on live.
You're kidding right? Whens the last time someone kill stole a mob you were camping? Happens very very rarely at least from 1 to 50. I'have never had a mob outright stolen. Why? Because there are already rules in regards to kill stealing that "prevent players being jerks". There are already a number of other rules on this server that are non-classic such as racing from zoneline, FTE messages, 1 hour grace periods that are all followed for the most part.

Given the above its pretty absurd to say players would have an inability to share spawns like they did on live. How difficult is that to understand if you've been at a camp for 24 hours and you have 3 loots on corpses and someone turns up its time to fucking leave or at least let them join you and roll on loot? Not very hard.

I think the crux of the matter is people like their 6 weeks of farming Hadden afk, or cockblocking the rest of the server in Fear and don't want to give that up. Its pretty pathetic given we're all likely old eq players and that'd put us in our late 30's and 40's. Time to grow up I think.

[Whirled]

You're kidding right? Whens the last time someone kill stole a mob you were camping? Happens very very rarely at least from 1 to 50. I'have never had a mob outright stolen. Why? Because there are already rules in regards to kill stealing that "prevent players being jerks". There are already a number of other rules on this server that are non-classic such as racing from zoneline, FTE messages, 1 hour grace periods that are all followed for the most part.

Given the above its pretty absurd to say players would have an inability to share spawns like they did on live. How difficult is that to understand if you've been at a camp for 24 hours and you have 3 loots on corpses and someone turns up its time to fucking leave or at least let them join you and roll on loot? Not very hard.

I think the crux of the matter is people like their 6 weeks of farming Hadden afk, or cockblocking the rest of the server in Fear and don't want to give that up. Its pretty pathetic given we're all likely old eq players and that'd put us in our late 30's and 40's. Time to grow up I think.

I've encountered this problem also. Watching dozens of corpses lined up with their LORE items and yet they still camp XYZ to fund the addiction. The saddest part is when you try to reason with these individuals, they can't see passed their own greedy interests. The one time I decided to wait, tried to be social (didn't work too well from his stand point) but the dude straight up lied to me and said, he didn't get his drop. Moments later, his buddy ports in, they duel, he makes another corpse and continues to camp the item "he didn't get".
I think I laughed for an hour or so, but hey.. some people just wanna be a thorn in your side. As many have said already; THIS is why we cant have nice things. Some will just try to eek out more for themselves in any way, shape or form that they can.

[Lagaidh]

And keep in mind, rules like that didn't exist in a vacuum - P99 is a distant echo of PvE culture on live EQ, distorted to the point of near unrecognizability.

This is forgotten more often than not in ForumQuest 99.

[Ikon]

This is forgotten more often than not in ForumQuest 99.
I don't think this is true though. Clearly what Gordon was describing back in 2000 is very similar to what is happening here. They implemented the PnP because the servers spawns, camps and "sometimes entire zones" were starting to become dominated by assholes who were permacamping and cockblocking everyone else.

[fastboy21]

You're kidding right? Whens the last time someone kill stole a mob you were camping? Happens very very rarely at least from 1 to 50. I'have never had a mob outright stolen. Why? Because there are already rules in regards to kill stealing that "prevent players being jerks". There are already a number of other rules on this server that are non-classic such as racing from zoneline, FTE messages, 1 hour grace periods that are all followed for the most part.

Given the above its pretty absurd to say players would have an inability to share spawns like they did on live. How difficult is that to understand if you've been at a camp for 24 hours and you have 3 loots on corpses and someone turns up its time to fucking leave or at least let them join you and roll on loot? Not very hard.

I think the crux of the matter is people like their 6 weeks of farming Hadden afk, or cockblocking the rest of the server in Fear and don't want to give that up. Its pretty pathetic given we're all likely old eq players and that'd put us in our late 30's and 40's. Time to grow up I think.

I'm not kidding. You can't force people to be nice by making a rule---it doesn't work.

The reason you haven't had the majority of your mobs stolen from you is because the majority of players are relatively normal decent folks and not jerks. The ones that enjoy being jerks will do it regardless of the rule...most of them will even do it regardless of suspension and ban and just re-roll.

The whole issue is moot. You posted an old dev post as evidence as to how people behaved (GMs and players) on live. That isn't evidence that the GMs actually successfully enforced play nice policies on live. The only thing that your post proves is that a dev made a post regarding a change in policy.

[Ikon]

I'm not kidding. You can't force people to be nice by making a rule---it doesn't work.

The reason you haven't had the majority of your mobs stolen from you is because the majority of players are relatively normal decent folks and not jerks. The ones that enjoy being jerks will do it regardless of the rule...most of them will even do it regardless of suspension and ban and just re-roll.

The whole issue is moot. You posted an old dev post as evidence as to how people behaved (GMs and players) on live. That isn't evidence that the GMs actually successfully enforced play nice policies on live. The only thing that your post proves is that a dev made a post regarding a change in policy.
Successfully or not they implemented it and it was classic. I can however post that if you like. Was reading post-PNP stuff from Gordon while the server was down.

From what I read PNP both was successful but as usual there were gripes about it - it allowed players to share spawns but there was a bit of whinging that people who were duoing or soloing camps were forced to allow people to join their groups and therefore had less experience...

So apparently you can force people to play nice. Like me to link it?

[fastboy21]

Successfully or not they implemented it and it was classic. I can however post that if you like. Was reading post-PNP stuff from Gordon while the server was down.

From what I read PNP both was successful but as usual there were gripes about it - it allowed players to share spawns but there was a bit of whinging that people who were duoing or soloing camps were forced to allow people to join their groups and therefore had less experience...

So apparently you can force people to play nice. Like me to link it?

Yes.

Post your evidence that a post made 16 years ago actually improved the game. If there were any actual reliable metrics that could substantiate your assertion I highly doubt they would have been made public by the CS team. But, I'd like to see what you think constitutes evidence of your claim.

[Ikon]

Yes.

Post your evidence that a post made 16 years ago actually improved the game. If there were any actual reliable metrics that could substantiate your assertion I highly doubt they would have been made public by the CS team. But, I'd like to see what you think constitutes evidence of your claim.
Here you go, entire 3 page post on it. It clearly was implemented and enforced. There are whines however the general consensus is it helped ensure everyone was entitled to content.

The majority of the whines appear to be people not understanding they don't own camps or spawns and an inability to want to share experience loot with others.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000815225307/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/004652.html

The Play Nice Policies were created because a growing number of customers were being subordinated by other, more powerful, groups of players. These other groups would claim "ownership" of spawns, loot drops, and even entire zones, refusing to allow other people a chance to experience them. On some servers, guilds had certain areas camped 24x7.

The play nice policies, in regards to spawns and camping, are designed to promote equal access to the areas. If a group can get into a room, they have as much right to be there as anyone else. Are the policies perfect? No, of course what is? No matter what policy we adopt, there will be people who are helped by the policy, and others that are hurt. Sometimes the policy may help them in one instance and hurt in another.

As I've mentioned in the past, if anyone has any ideas for policies that are easy to understand, are enforcable, do not require a larger CS team than before or after the Play nice policies, and will please everyone, I'd be happy to discuss them. - Gordon
https://web.archive.org/web/20000815062937/http://eqvault.ign.com/

[fastboy21]

Here you go, entire 3 page post on it. It clearly was implemented and enforced. There are whines however the general consensus is it helped ensure everyone was entitled to content.

The majority of the whines appear to be people not understanding they don't own camps or spawns and an inability to want to share experience loot with others.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000815225307/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/004652.html


https://web.archive.org/web/20000815062937/http://eqvault.ign.com/

Yes. I'm not sure what you think this proves. PNPs were part of EQ (they are also already part of p99). I'm not even sure what change from live you are suggesting be implemented here. Maybe if you said it specifically it would make more sense. The PNP on p99 is already more forum-lawyered and fleshed out than it was on live imo.

There is no evidence in anything you posted that people stopped being jerks to each other after the summer of 2000 due to a policy change. They added rules that the majority of players kept most of the time (just like we already have here).

[Ikon]

Yes. I'm not sure what you think this proves. PNPs were part of EQ (they are also already part of p99). I'm not even sure what change from live you are suggesting be implemented here. Maybe if you said it specifically it would make more sense. The PNP on p99 is already more forum-lawyered and fleshed out than it was on live imo.

There is no evidence in anything you posted that people stopped being jerks to each other after the summer of 2000 due to a policy change. They added rules that the majority of players kept most of the time (just like we already have here).
I believe what you are experiencing is extreme bias causing you an acute inability to comprehend the obvious, there is no external cure I can provide since its a self inflicted disease that only you can remedy. Have a nice one :)

[fadetree]

Ikon: you are saying that they "did too implement a play nice policy", thinking apparently that fastboy21 is trying to say they didn't.
Fastboy21: you're saying "OK, fine, but that's not my point, my point is that it didn't work and it won't work here for the same reason", apparently thinking that Ikon is paying attention.
Dunno if you started out together and somebody switched points quickly after having been proven wrong, but you can't win an argument unless you have matching points. For what it's worth, I agree with Fastboy.

[Ikon]

Ikon: you are saying that they "did too implement a play nice policy", thinking apparently that fastboy21 is trying to say they didn't.
Fastboy21: you're saying "OK, fine, but that's not my point, my point is that it didn't work and it won't work here for the same reason", apparently thinking that Ikon is paying attention.
Dunno if you started out together and somebody switched points quickly after having been proven wrong, but you can't win an argument unless you have matching points. For what it's worth, I agree with Fastboy.
My point is this is a classic server designed to allow us to experience original everquest, not P1999 everquest. The original developers implemented a solution to permacamping / asshaterry. issues identical to those now facing this server. The solution was implemented. It was enforced. People clearly adhered to it.

I posted evidence. Fastboy posted his opinion. His opinion is irrelevant. My opinion is irrelevant. Your agreement is irrelevant.

The only relevant thing is evidence, which I have provided and others although furiously attempting to refute it, with strawmen and opinion, have not.

Thank you.

[fadetree]

I want the TRUTH!

[maskedmelon]

My irrelevant opinion is that you are mad, OP.

Be happy (^○^)

[Ikon]

My irrelevant opinion is that you are mad, OP.

Be happy (^○^)
That is irrelevant as well as being incorrect.

[Ravager]

My point is this is a classic server. The developers implemented a solution to permacamping / asshaterry to deal with issues. The solution was implemented. It was enforced. People clearly adhered to it.

I posted evidence. Fastboy posted his opinion. His opinion is irrelevant. My opinion is irrelevant. Your agreement is irrelevant.

The only relevant thing is evidence, which I have provided and others although furiously attempting to refute it, with strawmen and opinion, have not.

Thank you.
People don't make up their minds with trifles like "evidence" and "facts". Emotions lead the way. First you must get them to feel icky about whatever cause they so strongly believe in, then make your agenda feel like the obvious good choice that brings warm fuzzies to them, then you will be able to implement whichever policies you fancy.

For this lot, first you need to make them feel icky about putting their imaginary pixelworld persons first over the good of all the other imaginary pixelworld persons, maybe try to link anarchist tendencies to Hitler or Pedobear somehow.

Second, you must get them excited about playing nice and sharing the pixelworld peacefully. Tell them they will ascend to pixelheaven where 72 pixelvirgins await them when the server shuts down, but only if they rotate their pixels. Or, if they don't believe in a pixelheaven, well in that case, they're probably the sort that take trifles like facts and evidence into consideration and if your case is strong enough, you've won them already.

[Ikon]

People don't make up their minds with trifles like "evidence" and "facts". Emotions lead the way. First you must get them to feel icky about whatever cause they so strongly believe in, then make your agenda feel like the obvious good choice that brings warm fuzzies to them, then you will be able to implement whichever policies you fancy.

For this lot, first you need to make them feel icky about putting their imaginary pixelworld persons first over the good of all the other imaginary pixelworld persons, maybe try to link anarchist tendencies to Hitler or Pedobear somehow.

Second, you must get them excited about playing nice and sharing the pixelworld peacefully. Tell them they will ascend to pixelheaven where 72 pixelvirgins await them when the server shuts down, but only if they rotate their pixels. Or, if they don't believe in a pixelheaven, well in that case, they're probably the sort that take trifles like facts and evidence into consideration and if your case is strong enough, you've won them already.
Yeah I realise that. I have children too :D

[Whirled]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BDBzgHXf64

Well, there's the proof. Black & white, clear as crystal.
Let's remove the asshattery and let the good times roll!

[fastboy21]

I believe what you are experiencing is extreme bias causing you an acute inability to comprehend the obvious, there is no external cure I can provide since its a self inflicted disease that only you can remedy. Have a nice one :)

Really? Not agreeing with your opinion that what you posted is evidence for your argument is a self inflicted disease? The only possible alternative to agreeing with you is that I have an acute inability to comprehend the obvious? Very humble of you.

How about this: A forum post and an threaded discussion from the year 2000 doesn't actually prove your assertion.

Here is what the links you posted "proved": there was a PNP policy on live. People discussed it online. Some were happy and some were not with the new policies.

That's about all I see the links you posted as proving. I don't know what ground breaking game changing evidence you think you've uncovered here for p99 development.

[paulgiamatti]

I'm willing to do this on blue and never play my characters there again.

Just wanted to point out that as a P99 guide or senior guide you can still play as many characters as you want, you just aren't allowed to disclose to your guide identity.

[fadetree]

The solution was implemented. - they wrote up the 'rules', yes.
It was enforced. - yeah sort of. Can't have that same level of enforcement here.
People clearly adhered to it. - this is the part where I think you are at least partially wrong. Some did, some didn't. I clearly remember plenty of people that didn't.

Live, for a while, had a much more energetic and paid CS staff. We do not have that here. We are more vulnerable to people that simply don't give a crap about PnP policies, and without the same kind of enforcement rigor that wore Sony out, we won't get much effect. Plus it's *already* been written up, and here we are talking about how crappy people are behaving. I also don't think you are suggesting anything that will make much of a difference. The enforcement part is what's missing, and people will be people.

[Wiley]

TLDR; we need Street Judges, fine graduates of the Academy of Law

[Ikon]

The solution was implemented. - they wrote up the 'rules', yes.
It was enforced. - yeah sort of. Can't have that same level of enforcement here.
People clearly adhered to it. - this is the part where I think you are at least partially wrong. Some did, some didn't. I clearly remember plenty of people that didn't.

Live, for a while, had a much more energetic and paid CS staff. We do not have that here. We are more vulnerable to people that simply don't give a crap about PnP policies, and without the same kind of enforcement rigor that wore Sony out, we won't get much effect. Plus it's *already* been written up, and here we are talking about how crappy people are behaving. I also don't think you are suggesting anything that will make much of a difference. The enforcement part is what's missing, and people will be people.
Solution was implemented - dev post.
Solution was enforced - dev post linked above. Forums posts in which people describe being subject to it, being affected by it negatively or positively.
People clearly adhered to it - again forum post describing (complaining) about having to adhere to it, references to people using it and GM's becoming involved, references by people describing how it now allowed them to get camps / join parties whereas before they couldn't.

You're argument - I clearly remember, I don't think, we are - with zero evidence, zero links, no research.

I'm sorry but your argument is not an argument its an unsubstantiated opinion.

[fastboy21]

I'm sorry but your argument is not an argument its an unsubstantiated opinion.

Pot calling kettle black.

[Dreenk317]

Pot calling kettle black.

Haha you beat me to it

[Ikon]

Pot calling kettle black.
Evidenciary based statement is something backed up with research producing evidence - I have that.

Unsubstantiated opinion is something stated that has no evidence to back it up and comes purely from the memory or mind of the person making the statement.

They're very different. Much like you and I.

[fastboy21]

Evidenciary based statement is something backed up with research producing evidence - I have that.

Unsubstantiated opinion is something stated that has no evidence to back it up and comes purely from the memory or mind of the person making the statement.

They're very different. Much like you and I.

Well sort of. You think you have evidence. But like you say, thinking doesn't make it so.

[Ikon]

Well sort of. You think you have evidence. But like you say, thinking doesn't make it so.
Uh huh :D

[fadetree]

Solution was implemented - dev post.
Solution was enforced - dev post linked above. Forums posts in which people describe being subject to it, being affected by it negatively or positively.
People clearly adhered to it - again forum post describing (complaining) about having to adhere to it, references to people using it and GM's becoming involved, references by people describing how it now allowed them to get camps / join parties whereas before they couldn't.

You're argument - I clearly remember, I don't think, we are - with zero evidence, zero links, no research.

I'm sorry but your argument is not an argument its an unsubstantiated opinion.

Ok, I'm out. There's no point in discussing this with you.

[skarlorn]

Form a crew

[paulgiamatti]

For the record, I don't have any doubts that the policy would "work" insofar as how stringently it can be enforced. I don't want to bore everyone by repeating myself, but again - the idea that this policy would go over well on P99 gives way too much credit to the P99 playerbase. If this policy worked on live, and I'm assuming it did to some degree, it was because things were different: it was a different time, with a demographically younger and more serious playerbase, and a faster timeline of events. It was an actual investment to play live EQ, and conversely the GMs were actually compensated. Guides were more readily available, and players were for the most part more interested in experiencing new content rather than locking down camps or zones. The fact that it was a brand new game with undiscovered content alone makes the comparison to our intrinsically flawed facsimile 15 years later completely incoherent. Any policy that existed then should at most be merely taken into consideration rather than transplanted and applied here in a literal sense.

I also take issue with the idea of implementing this policy on P99 because it's presented under the assumption that, because P99 seeks to recreate the classic EverQuest experience, we therefore must take into consideration every facet and every minor detail that was etched into live. The P99 staff would be the first to tell you that this is not how they do things, nor is it how they planned on doing things. There are plenty of things from live, including certain aspects of policy enforcement, that they very consciously chose not to adopt for specific reasons. EverQuest live policy would forbid them from restoring decayed player corpses and reimbursing items. Character name enforcement on live, as demonstrated by a slew of parodical P99 threads, was so broad-brushed and loosely defined that our current CSR staff would have to dedicate most of their time to that alone. By recognizing the difference between swearing and swearing at someone, they're more relaxed about public-channel vulgarity.

For obvious reasons, P99 is basically EQ For Adults. There's a certain pretense that one almost has to surrender to when deciding to go in on an emulated EverQuest server as an exercise in childhood nostalgia; something between masochism at worst, and a kind of jovial self-deprecating unseriousness at best. So many things that were enforced during '99 - '01, when a huge percentage of the playerbase consisted of kids and young adolescents, will seem outdated, outmoded, and glaringly anachronistic today. We want our nostalgia trip, and P99 is willing to give it to us, but we have to be able to make fun of ourselves to some extent in order to enjoy it. When people start taking Project 1999 too seriously, that's when the guy who decides to solo camp some god-forsaken mob for six hours at three o'clock in the morning gets harassed by some other guy quoting a newly instated rule that says the spawn must now be rotated lest he incur the wrath of the overworked volunteer staff. Just leave the guy alone. Let him have his camp, go find something else to do, and be thankful you aren't him.

I barely remember this rule on live, and I played obsessively from launch day in 1999 until the first day of Luclin. It definitely helped to maintain a respectful atmosphere in game, but it was hugely contingent upon GM arbitration - if a guide wasn't able to step into a dispute within minutes of a petition, nothing would get resolved, and things would escalate to kill-stealing and name-calling and training, just like they would here. Still, it was definitely a deterrent, I have no doubts about that - deterrence is the most crucial part of any law enforcement, and without it there'd be no reason for laws. No one wanted to get guides or GMs involved if it was avoidable, so players took steps to avoid getting into contentious situations - they'd make sure they're not hogging a camp for too long, they'd be more mindful and respectful of other players - they'd treat other players as if, you know, there's an actual person behind the keyboard. That doesn't happen without coercive credibility. If players realize that enforcement is practically nonexistent, they're not going to take the rule seriously or even think about changing their behavior, and that new rule will become exploitable and the staff's worst nightmare. And remember, during this era on live players were much more willing to modify their behavior because there was new content to explore - they didn't want to waste their $10 per month arguing with guides over silly camp disputes. For some people on P99, that's the whole point of the game.

There's also already a policy in place on P99 to address excessive camping and the corpsing of items, which was mentioned a couple times:

It should also be noted that if you camp out or leave the zone (this includes dying/"corpsing" items), you have forfeited a camp.

Granted, they can just pass the item to someone else, but if you suspect someone is doing this and they've been camping something for a stupidly long time, I'd just go ahead and petition anyway.

[Ikon]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010112051600/http://www.maximumeq.com/forum/UltraBoard.cgi?Action=ShowPost&Board=general&Post=578&Idle=30&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=2&Session=
Another link :D:p

[Ikon]

For the record, I don't have any doubts that the policy would "work" insofar as how stringently it can be enforced. I don't want to bore everyone by repeating myself, but again - the idea that this policy would go over well on P99 gives way too much credit to the P99 playerbase. If this policy worked on live, and I'm assuming it did to some degree, it was because things were different: it was a different time, with a demographically younger and more serious playerbase, and a faster timeline of events. It was an actual investment to play live EQ, and conversely the GMs were actually compensated. Guides were more readily available, and players were for the most part more interested in experiencing new content rather than locking down camps or zones. The fact that it was a brand new game with undiscovered content alone makes the comparison to our intrinsically flawed facsimile 15 years later completely incoherent. Any policy that existed then should at most be merely taken into consideration rather than transplanted and applied here in a literal sense.

I also take issue with the idea of implementing this policy on P99 because it's presented under the assumption that, because P99 seeks to recreate the classic EverQuest experience, we therefore must take into consideration every facet and every minor detail that was etched into live. The P99 staff would be the first to tell you that this is not how they do things, nor is it how they planned on doing things. There are plenty of things from live, including certain aspects of policy enforcement, that they very consciously chose not to adopt for specific reasons. EverQuest live policy would forbid them from restoring decayed player corpses and reimbursing items. Character name enforcement on live, as demonstrated by a slew of parodical P99 threads, was so broad-brushed and loosely defined that our current CSR staff would have to dedicate most of their time to that alone. By recognizing the difference between swearing and swearing at someone, they're more relaxed about public-channel vulgarity.

For obvious reasons, P99 is basically EQ For Adults. There's a certain pretense that one almost has to surrender to when deciding to go in on an emulated EverQuest server as an exercise in childhood nostalgia; something between masochism at worst, and a kind of jovial self-deprecating unseriousness at best. So many things that were enforced during '99 - '01, when a huge percentage of the playerbase consisted of kids and young adolescents, will seem outdated, outmoded, and glaringly anachronistic today. We want our nostalgia trip, and P99 is willing to give it to us, but we have to be able to make fun of ourselves to some extent in order to enjoy it. When people start taking Project 1999 too seriously, that's when the guy who decides to solo camp some god-forsaken mob for six hours at three o'clock in the morning gets harassed by some other guy quoting a newly instated rule that says the spawn must now be rotated lest he incur the wrath of the overworked volunteer staff. Just leave the guy alone. Let him have his camp, go find something else to do, and be thankful you aren't him.

I barely remember this rule on live, and I played obsessively from launch day in 1999 until the first day of Luclin. It definitely helped to maintain a respectful atmosphere in game, but it was hugely contingent upon GM arbitration - if a guide wasn't able to step into a dispute within minutes of a petition, nothing would get resolved, and things would escalate to kill-stealing and name-calling and training, just like they would here. Still, it was definitely a deterrent, I have no doubts about that - deterrence is the most crucial part of any law enforcement, and without it there'd be no reason for laws. No one wanted to get guides or GMs involved if it was avoidable, so players took steps to avoid getting into contentious situations - they'd make sure they're not hogging a camp for too long, they'd be more mindful and respectful of other players - they'd treat other players as if, you know, there's an actual person behind the keyboard. That doesn't happen without coercive credibility. If players realize that enforcement is practically nonexistent, they're not going to take the rule seriously or even think about changing their behavior, and that new rule will become exploitable and the staff's worst nightmare. And remember, during this era on live players were much more willing to modify their behavior because there was new content to explore - they didn't want to waste their $10 per month arguing with guides over silly camp disputes. For some people on P99, that's the whole point of the game.

There's also already a policy in place on P99 to address excessive camping and the corpsing of items, which was mentioned a couple times:



Granted, they can just pass the item to someone else, but if you suspect someone is doing this and they've been camping something for a stupidly long time, I'd just go ahead and petition anyway.
Now this is a post I can agree with to an extent. Well written and doesn't just say "your wrong!"

You make some good points although I don't agree with them all - specifically that adults on this server don't need to be forced to play nice. There are people in game that refuse to give up camps and are camping there 24/7 every day of the week.

There are a number of people who want to do their epics who cannot get access to certain pieces because they're permacamped and being sold for up to half a million pp for a single piece.

The other thing is the current rules are so far from live that the experience is also very far from live. The requirement to share is one we should all be used to.

While I wouldn't go so far as to demand a person let me have some of their mobs I would expect that they would not be camped there 24/7 and that I would be able to get a shot one day. The idea a person instead needs to farm half a million pp for a single epic piece is ludicrous. If you played for 2 hours per day, and earned 500pp per hour it would take you 500 days or close to 1 1/2 years to get that one piece.

What imo needs to happen is that some change needs to occur, either a watered down PnP sharing rule (1 item drop per person then you need to give the camp up) or MQ needs to be looked at.

[botrainer]

People could stop buying MQs? Also offer much much less, making the MQ's no longer worth the time invested. Once something is no longer profitable(time spent vs plat earned) plat farmers stop doing them. I know Jboots have actually gone UP since i joined the server 5 years ago, going from a crappy 4 to 5k up to an easy 7k. If people capped out their offers at 4k to 5k, you'll see fewer people willing to camp that dang AC. Same can be said about any MQ. Buyers agree to lower their offers, making the time put in, no longer worth while. Sadly Ragefire will always be prema camped, and down because of the tempting included CoF, WT bag, and Red Scales. Just make the price tag of doing AC so unfriendly to plat farmers this problem corrects itself.

However the high end raiding, needs massive fixes, and a call for a rotation has been being chanted for months, sadly with the GM's unwillingness, and the top two guilds lack of sharing abilities they never acquired during the course of their lives...that'll never change..,and goes forth the ranting of "brahhh just compete" (Translation: dude, we wanna train you and your guild then take the pixels and what we don't use we sell in EC tunnel).

What's so unfitting about this high end raiding is the lack of 1 or 2 evening of slugging your way though ToV or Kael, or sleepers earning armor during the course of that evening. Everything on this server is trained around, trains to train each other, and everyone else, major zone lag issues, all over 1 NPC kill, once that named is down, all goes quiet but only for a moment until next dragon has spawned and is fte'd. This is not raiding, this is called selfishness at its ugliest and worse, its just a shame GM's don't step in and remove this sort of mind set from the server.

[Yoink1986]

^ sad reality is fan D is probably a grown adult. Least he's got EQ in his life.

[botrainer]

BoTrainer is a moron and this is known for many years now

guy is dum as it gets and sucks in game (weirdo)

(This is coming from a guy who can't spell a 4 letter word, always consider the source!)

Love it when these type of guys appear, just because I don't enjoy the tracking, the footraces, and living in a false reality with fake people who only want you to do their overnight tracking (bitch work) as they reap the benefits is not my idea of fun.

What I do find fun is spending time with my guildies, slugging it out VP, ToV, Sleepers, EXPing in Seb, HS, and any other host of zones. Actually getting to talk with one another, build a friendship or two along the way (something A/A guilds lack greatly). These top end guilds have clicks, and most are not welcome to be a part of them (*Yes even if you do their bitch work).

The whole idea of making up new "raid rules" then following that up with "okay, so, now how do we get as close as we possible can to breaking the new rules we made without....actuallllyyyy breaking them!?!?!?!?!?!?!" That frame of mind is very unhealthy, and is dubious behavior to start with...generally speaking however both A guilds already know what that work around is going to be (which again is sad in itself.).

This still doesn't change my mind set of only seeing my guildies for 3 mins to kill a dragon then everyone log outs until the next dragon. That's like going to church on Easter and Christmas, there's majority of the people there you have no clue who they are, and you'll wish them a marry day and only see them again at the next big event. Very unfriendly atmosphere.

[jarlerop]

Here you go, entire 3 page post on it. It clearly was implemented and enforced. There are whines however the general consensus is it helped ensure everyone was entitled to content.
https://web.archive.org/web/20000815225307/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/004652.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20000815062937/http://eqvault.ign.com/

This is a quote from the post you linked:

"I want to point out was the common occurences that PNP allows, that simply is abusing the policy to your advantage. Here is what happened to one of my groups this last weekend.
My guild decides that we want to Hunt the Froglok King in Liveside, LGUK. WE're preparing for a naggy raid, and need some more crowns.

We have a full group of level 40-51. We have no cleric, so if one of us dies, they have to make their way back to the King "the hard way".

Ok..After a very rigorous struggle, involving 2 deaths, backtracking back through the minotaur mess to retrive them, and trying to keep the King/Gargoyle/Water Ele and adajacent rooms broke to allow free travel, we finally get all 6 guys in the king room, with the room well broken.

About this time, two level 52 casters, one a mage, the other a necro, come into the room. They EACH demand a fair turn at the King Spawn. We tell them that when we're finished, they are welcome to it. Of course, the DEMAND that they each get their share. This would leave my full group of 6, with one in 3 King spawns. I told them, "no way". So guess what, they invoke PNP, call a GM who was there in minutes, and the GM forces my full group to share with EACH of them. Wonderful, so my full group gets 1 in 3 king spawns, and they get one each. What a load.

Ok. We have to do it. So my group takes it's spawn when it comes, and then proceeds to take the Boks and other spawns in the room also. The next spawns is the Necro's. Well, the King pops and we back off. So the necro is fighting the King with his pet, and woah, here comes the Tactician. The Tactician attacks the Necro and my group just watches. Afterall, my group has to handle these multiple spawns, so should the necro when it's his turn I guess. Well, the Mage jumps in to help the necro, but the necro takes some quick damage, and dies.

I get all sorts of profanity and rude comments from the Necro for allowing him to lose XP and not helping him. Next thing I know, here's the GM. The GM tells my group now that we MUST leave, since we didn't help the Necro and he lost XP.

In other words, the Necro and Mage could NOT break the spawn, they couldn't even hold it singlely. They just wanted to reap the rewards of a broken spawn, and when we didn't help them, we were ORDERED to leave the spawn by the GM.

You ask me if PNP is broke. Yes, there is no doubt in my that it is."

I have no doubt it was enforced. Who the hell wants this on P99?

[maskedmelon]

^ lol

If it ever was enforced it was for a brief period and on select servers. Nothing like this ever occurred on any of the servers I played on and like ordinary camp etiquette, had this been an actual thing it would have worked it's way into player culture and already be a thing here. It's silly ^^ Whether it is genuine or not is largely irrelevant. Nilbog/Rogean simply will not demean their project with this sort of retardation. I could see Sirken possibly doing it for the lulz though :3

[Whirled]

Dude shows you all proof + all you can do is clutch your pixels like an old lady and still deny the truth. How do you still have time to play EQ with all that protesting you do outside Trump towers?

[fastboy21]

Its a good thing that people who actually run p99 know the difference between a random thread found on the waybackmachine and evidence.

As for all the ad hominems you throw at folks who disagree with you, you can keep at them. It doesn't matter to me so long as your claims go ignored by the server staff. You see, they are one's you are really calling idiots, children, pixel clutch-ers, Trump protesters...the one's responding to you on the forums are only the ones who try (for some reason) to engage with you; the devs just ignore you.

[Whirled]

Its a good thing that people who actually run p99 know the difference between a random thread found on the waybackmachine and evidence.

As for all the ad hominems you throw at folks who disagree with you, you can keep at them. It doesn't matter to me so long as your claims go ignored by the server staff. You see, they are one's you are really calling idiots, children, pixel clutch-ers, Trump protesters...the one's responding to you on the forums are only the ones who try (for some reason) to engage with you; the devs just ignore you.

You are so edgy. I guess if you had friends other than pixels though you could swing that crap with them and maybe they'd think you're some bad ass but you just come across as a tard trying to posture up again on the internet. Anyhow, you should probably get back to your camp though before you lose it. Don't want to get rule lawyered out of it right? Enjoy your game champ!

[fastboy21]

You are so edgy. I guess if you had friends other than pixels though you could swing that crap with them and maybe they'd think you're some bad ass but you just come across as a tard trying to posture up again on the internet. Anyhow, you should probably get back to your camp though before you lose it. Don't want to get rule lawyered out of it right? Enjoy your game champ!

Once again, a very good one...grats on being rude online.

[Lobus]

For children with autism, video games are particularly enticing.

However, there can be a dark side to video game use, and an obsession with games can lead to problems like increased attention deficits, difficult behaviors and addiction. Role-playing video games appear to be especially addictive to those with autism. Kids can become very angry when their game is interrupted and they are not able to stop the game or transition easily to the next activity.

“What we find is that the excitement of playing the game builds and that momentum takes over,” Dr. Moran adds. “They have a hard time disengaging from the game when asked, and screen time usually ends up being at the expense of the child being present in the moment with friends or family.”

Many parents agree, citing obsession with games, meltdowns or arguments over appropriate limits and trouble stopping play.

[Whirled]

Once again, a very good one...grats on being rude online.
I'm not rude! I'm sending a copy of Doctor Moran's video to you for Christmas as we speak! Or is it Hanukah? Kwanzaa?

[Ikon]

Its a good thing that people who actually run p99 know the difference between a random thread found on the waybackmachine and evidence.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5570

From Nilbog:
Reviewing the rest of the google hits, there isn't a lot of information gained that I didn't already know.

Next stop.. the way back machine. http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

It's continuing mission.. to archive webpages. Since 1996, if a certain website was public, and it was archived, this is the place to find it.

If you like allakhazams, then you can do a search for an Illias bestiary that was archived. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/ is the address that we will be looking for. After entering it in the waybackmachine, it should produce a page similiar to this

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://...allakhazam.com

From Kanras
Here's a list of the links that I use pretty frequently when doing research:

Patch notes: http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/19992002.php
Skill caps: http://replay.web.archive.org/200007...u/creation.asp
Old newsgroup (searchable): http://groups.google.com/group/alt.g...topics?lnk=srg
Cleric class forums (only easily searchable class forum that has lots of posts from classic/kunark/velious era): http://www.eqclerics.org/

You see, this entire game has been built on old web pages not the random memories or opinions of players.

Like playing chess with a baby....

[fastboy21]

call me when your proposed evidence-based changes get implemented.

[Lobus]

call me when your proposed evidence-based changes get implemented.

Fast please watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU-7946HlMw