An idea too settle this whole skill level dispute thing

[guineapig]

So many people are complaining about zerging giant guilds, camping raid targets, questionable strategies (just to name a few), etc...


Do we really know how good the current raiding guilds are at this content? It’s impossible to tell any more. Some guilds are bloated with players but might be able to kill targets with far less while some guilds rarely get a chance to prove themselves because they refuse to mass recruit. Well how about this idea?

To start, this would be done on the test server (for obvious reasons) and raid loot will not transfer to the live p99 server.

Any guild that wants in on the contest can enter.
1 test for each of the following raid targets:

Vox
Naggy
Inny
CT
Spiroc Lord
(maybe) Dojorn

We pre-determine the amount of players that are allowed for each target. (Example: 3 groups for naggy, 4 groups for CT, or something like that).

Only the guild and a guide are present.
Guide records the entire fight.

Things to score on can include length of time to down target, number of deaths.

Video is posted online so that in addition to the raw numbers we can also see how clean each raid went down.

Nice controlled environment. No excuses, no belly aching.

To be determined what state the zones should be in. (Should giants be up and available to charm as pets?
How much of Fear should be up at the time of engagement? (Nobody wants to sit around watching a full fear clear.
Are the Bladestorms going to be up?
Do we include mini-bosses like Dracho and Maestro?
etc...

How do people feel about this?

[Chanus]

Why?

[guineapig]

Why?

Same reason people feel the urge to PVP... competition.

And so that guilds can all have a chance to really show what they got.
Think of it as a raid tournament.

[Ponden]

In a "controlled" environment, you can literally do targets with very small numbers since there is no competition.

[guineapig]

If people want to pvp for competition they can flag themselves.

If you want to raid with a limited number of raiders in a single environment: play a newer MMO with limitations.

So you're not the least bit curious how good the various guilds actually are at these targets?

[Ponden]

It shouldn't matter. All this would do is split up the current guilds and form other guilds which puts more poopsocking on the table. If you can only raid with say...24, well wtf do you do with the other 24 people in your guild? Tell them they can't play?

[guineapig]

It shouldn't matter. All this would do is split up the current guilds and form other guilds which puts more poopsocking on the table. If you can only raid with say...24, well wtf do you do with the other 24 people in your guild? Tell them they can't play?

You didn't read my post, did you.

The idea was a tournament to be done on the test server and it would probably happen over the course of a few days/weeks.

What are you talking about poopsocking? These would be GM spawned raid mobs with no loot to keep.

Yeah, on a tournament you pick your team. Sorry if you have 100 people to pick from. Split them up so everyone gets to compete on at least 1 target. I'm sure your guild leader could figure out something fair.

[baub]

If you can only raid with say...24, well wtf do you do with the other 24 people in your guild? Tell them they can't play?

It will make good practice on how to deal with members during VP :D

[Ponden]

I did read your post. I fully understand it, but I still don't know what to say to the other half of the guild. If you had a 24 man limit, you can bet that guilds would only use their 24 best players.

[karsten]

I came here to tell you, chicanery, that Pantheon just killed THREE BOSSES IN THREE HOURS

[Loke]

I personally don't think we should change anything, but in the spirit of this thread...

Instead of a pre-determined number, when a mob (say naggy) spawns, all the guilds present to do it come up with a number. Say DA says "we'll do it with 24", then IB could be like "well, we'll try with 23", then DA would reply with "Ok, we'll go 22 then!"... this would continue until one guild says "We'll try it with #" and the other is like "Fine, go for it."

Say Divinity does Naggy with 14, next week they'll know they can do it with 14 and so will everyone else, so to get the mob - you'll need to attempt it with less. Since in this example, Div killed it with 14 the next time they get to start and they say 14 - so to have a shot at the mob, DA, DW, IB, Doze, etc would have to attempt it with 13 or less.

That would really ensure the mob went to the most "skilled" and "not zerg" guild - but I personally don't have a huge problem with the way things are tbh.

[guineapig]

I did read your post. I fully understand it, but I still don't know what to say to the other half of the guild. If you had a 24 man limit, you can bet that guilds would only use their 24 best players.

You bring up a valid point. I would think in the interest of winning certainly some would bow out in the interest of the guild as a whole. Not being in your guild I don't know how your members would react.

I know for certain that there are certain raids where I feel like I am more valuable to the guild then others and would not feel the need to be there for the challenge.

For instance, if you are doing Naggy with no Fire giants there isn't a while hell of a lot enchanters are doing on this raid besides landing tash. Sure you could chain rune or nuke but the runes are not needed and the nukes are pathetic. So on this raid you get 1 chanter who doing mind being a buff bot and save your better enchanters for another raid.

Another example.
Why bother to waste your best geared tank on Dracho?

It's not that tough and actually adds to the strategy of picking out the best team build for each challenge..

[guineapig]

I personally don't think we should change anything, but in the spirit of this thread...

Instead of a pre-determined number, when a mob (say naggy) spawns, all the guilds present to do it come up with a number. Say DA says "we'll do it with 24", then IB could be like "well, we'll try with 23", then DA would reply with "Ok, we'll go 22 then!"... this would continue until one guild says "We'll try it with #" and the other is like "Fine, go for it."

Say Divinity does Naggy with 14, next week they'll know they can do it with 14 and so will everyone else, so to get the mob - you'll need to attempt it with less. Since in this example, Div killed it with 14 the next time they get to start and they say 14 - so to have a shot at the mob, DA, DW, IB, Doze, etc would have to attempt it with 13 or less.

That would really ensure the mob went to the most "skilled" and "not zerg" guild - but I personally don't have a huge problem with the way things are tbh.

This truly would be awesome if it could happen. But sadly I never see this happening on the live server. That's why I thought of something fun to try in the spirit of fair competition with no loot on the line to cloud people's judgment and no chance for outside interference.

[Chanus]

in the spirit of fair competition

Rants & Flames would have a lot fewer threads if anyone you're talking about had any interest in this concept.

[guineapig]

Anyway, it was just a though. I honestly though certain guilds would jump at the idea of a contest like this. Not naming names but some guilds claim to be all about doing more with less while some large guilds have been known to do more with less in the past. And smaller guilds who have been around for a while could have a great opportunity to show their stuff on mobs that are usually not available to them.

I'm personally not huge video game on competition but I still think it would be neat.

[guineapig]

Rants & Flames would have a lot fewer threads if anyone you're talking about had any interest in this concept.

Perhaps.
Point taken...

[Dr4z3r]

It's D-R-A-C-O. As in "Dracoliche."

http://moestaverne.com/p1999wiki/index.php/Dracoliche

http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=735

[Starklen]

Could be fun but the time and effort is probably better spent testing things for kunark.

[Duma]

Same reason people feel the urge to PVP... competition.

PVP has never been about competition, in any game. It's an excuse, a red herring.

PVP = griefing plain and simple.

[Hobby]

I personally feel like my PvP events have gone pretty well... the amount of greifing in terms of corpse camping and shit is fairly non-existant.

But yes, PvP in its most primal way, is indeed a way to grief people. Killing others to steal their loot? Hell yes :p



Anyways, posting here to say that I am all for competition on who can kill what boss with the least amount of players.

Id bet Nagafen can be killed with 10 people -- bard for resists, chanter for crack and haste, 3 clerics (2 on tank, 1 on backups / dps) 1 tank 3 dps and 1 backup healer (paladin preferrably for layhands and tanking capabilities just in case).

Will take a little bit to kill, but I bet the clerics would be able to keep their mana up easy enough. But I may be misjudging how fast the mana-regen is :/

[guineapig]

PVP has never been about competition, in any game. It's an excuse, a red herring.

PVP = griefing plain and simple.

This thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with PVP.... :confused:

[Goobles]

I vote zone-wide PVP when raid bosses spawn.

[Ralexia]

I personally don't think we should change anything, but in the spirit of this thread...

Instead of a pre-determined number, when a mob (say naggy) spawns, all the guilds present to do it come up with a number. Say DA says "we'll do it with 24", then IB could be like "well, we'll try with 23", then DA would reply with "Ok, we'll go 22 then!"... this would continue until one guild says "We'll try it with #" and the other is like "Fine, go for it."

Say Divinity does Naggy with 14, next week they'll know they can do it with 14 and so will everyone else, so to get the mob - you'll need to attempt it with less. Since in this example, Div killed it with 14 the next time they get to start and they say 14 - so to have a shot at the mob, DA, DW, IB, Doze, etc would have to attempt it with 13 or less.

That would really ensure the mob went to the most "skilled" and "not zerg" guild - but I personally don't have a huge problem with the way things are tbh.

This reminds me of a great gameshow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvdIy8zHMgc).

[Barfight]

I came here to tell you, chicanery, that Pantheon just killed THREE BOSSES IN THREE HOURS


Congrats Pantheon on Ghoul Lord, Solusek Kobold King, and King Tranix!

[Jenni D]

what a load of egotistical bollocks, sorry :)

[guineapig]

So after all the guild drama, given the chance to actually show what your guild can do nobody is interested? Wow.

I thought it would have been a lot of fun and something new and different.
I guess some people only play the game for pixel prizes after all.

[Omnimorph]

I thought it would have been a lot of fun and something new and different.
I guess some people only play the game for pixel prizes after all.

Welcome to classic eq :p

The whole "do less with more" thing is just what a guild says when they lose a mob to another guild who happens to have more people at the time. None of the kills require skill, and the idea of trying to prove it with less people would be pointless.

Hell, you do this, go back on p99 and say "oh yeah, well we killed CT with 20 people", the guild you're saying that to reply "oh yeah? well when you were killing a CT with no loot on test we camped him on p99 with 50 and got some loot".

Winner = no one.

[Ponden]

Winner = no one.

Guineapig, you can stop trying to solve the problems of P99.

[guineapig]

All right then, that's fine.

The thread was not to solve a problem on the server. It was a chance at something fun to do that any guild can take part in. But I guess maybe the game isn't supposed to be fun for some people.

Let there be no more talk of "guild skills" though.
I don't want to hear any more about who's guild is better when, given the chance to prove it, you all back down and make lame excuses.

[Phallax]

I remember back like 4-5 months ago. People were bitching non-stop about poopsocking because there was really no "competition" in it. And everyone claimed thats what classic was all about, "competition".

Now no one is interested in a "competition" event? ...pathetic.

As, guineapig, said...are you seriously playing an emu server for pixels? ...pathetic.

I think this is a great idea.

For everyone bitching about the #s, its just like any other team thing out there. You go somewhere with a team, but you put up your best quad when it comes to proving your teams skill.

[Chanus]

Is it really surprising the top guilds are comprised of mostly shouty asshats along for the zerg ride?

All puffing out their chests and talking a big game, but unwilling to actually get down to it?

Maybe a handful people in any of the guilds actually knowing how to do things properly, but due to the climate of poopsock==win, their knowledge is all but useless?

[Versus]

Don't mind me, I'm just a 25 monk, but here is my 2cp. And note: I don't know the guilds too well yet, but from what I gather, it's IB vs. DA.

Anyway.

Competition? Poopsocking is all part of it. It's about making the rival guild fucked out of content. That is still competition, even if it's lame. It will never be fair. Why would the lead guild want it to be fair? They want to remain the best by any means necessary. However, I have seen the pendelum swing for whatever reason, and the second best guild becomes the premier one. Shit happens, people leave, you never know.

TL;DR - Will never be fair. #1 vs. #2 will always be rivals and do anything to fuck one another.

[guineapig]

Competition? Poopsocking is all part of it. ......



TL;DR - Will never be fair. #1 vs. #2 will always be rivals and do anything to fuck one another.

If somebody wants to have a poopsocking contest on the test server than more power to them.

Personally I think a raid contest on the test server sounds way cooler.

It's a shame you didn't actually read the idea. :D

[maegi]

That's cuz when it's all said and done, the so-called big elite guilds are nothing but zerg numbers. Raiding 12 year old bosses that were killed 12 years ago in every way imaginable by different combinations and tactics that required trial and error back then is just repeating what's already been done hundreds of times, with different guild tags doing it now. I like your idea, but obviously the pompous wind bags claiming they are better than everyone else can't be asked to prove anything.

[Kruel]

Don't mind me, I'm just a 25 monk, but here is my 2cp. And note: I don't know the guilds too well yet, but from what I gather, it's IB vs. DA.

Anyway.



You are mostly correct. It is IB / DW /Panth!- Vs. DA

One thing i dont notice much or any of is DW comming in here claiming "they" or there guild got a server first. Lets get one thing straight this was two guilds trying to take out the 800lb gorrilla that is DA. that is all.

[karsten]

Plus Pantheon, aka the peanut butter & jelly in the middle of the sandwich! hehehe

i mean how else do you think we all killed THREE BOSSES IN THREE HOURS!?!?

[Versus]

If somebody wants to have a poopsocking contest on the test server than more power to them.

Personally I think a raid contest on the test server sounds way cooler.

It's a shame you didn't actually read the idea. :D

I read it. And I don't think there is a shot in hell it will ever happen. They are trying to put Kunark on the table. It's too much to make different levels PvP in different zones on PvP nights, what on earth makes you think they will open an entirely new server to play these "instanced raids" games? You're dreaming brother. It's a good idea, but the likelihood is stupid low.

[guineapig]

I read it. And I don't think there is a shot in hell it will ever happen. They are trying to put Kunark on the table. It's too much to make different levels PvP in different zones on PvP nights, what on earth makes you think they will open an entirely new server to play these "instanced raids" games? You're dreaming brother. It's a good idea, but the likelihood is stupid low.

New server? I would never suggest such a thing. The test server is right there for people to use. All the old world bosses are working same as they do on the live server.

Sorry that I thought you didn't read it. It's just that you wrote TL;DR so I took it literally.

[Versus]

nah, I was referring to my own post with the TL;DR.

Either way, I agree with you but it probably won't happen. :(

They could always just split into a 3rd power guild and be less powerful. That's a good idea, right? :rolleyes:

[karsten]

i was thinking about going on the test server so that i could have a shot at EVEN VOX

[guineapig]

nah, I was referring to my own post with the TL;DR.

Either way, I agree with you but it probably won't happen. :(

They could always just split into a 3rd power guild and be less powerful. That's a good idea, right? :rolleyes:


Haha, they want less competition, not more.

Yeah, sadly. There is a lot of talk around here but little else.

[Badmartigan]

It's not on the guilds to set this up.. It's on gms/guides..

If this tourney happened I'm sure every guild would be willing to compete.. But this is on gms/guides to setup.. Not on the "top guilds"... Show me where to sign up and I'll get a team together..

Thanks!

[Kruel]

15 mages would beat nag very easy =P

[Chanus]

Er... Didn't Hobby already say he was interested in doing this?

[Scrooge]

Most guilds don't like to play with fire, in other words, what's the point of taking a risk if you can just do it safely with numbers and still get ph4t lewtz! Right?

However, I'm proud to say my guild is all about playing with fire, and that's the only thing that keeps this game so interesting still, not the loot, not the raid bosses, and not the so-called "competition" of who's the better poop-socker.

[YendorLootmonkey]

So after all the guild drama, given the chance to actually show what your guild can do nobody is interested? Wow.

If they actually had to put their "money where their mouth was", so to speak, then everyone would know once and for all who the most skilled guild was and then there wouldn't be any drama over it. And we wouldn't want THAT, now... would we?

The fact that the uberguilds aren't biting on this tells me it's a great way to determine which guild is more skilled once you take 'having to put up zerg forces to compete/poopsock against the competition' out of the equation. ;)

[Loke]

The fact that the uberguilds aren't biting on this tells me it's a great way to determine which guild is more skilled once you take 'having to put up zerg forces to compete/poopsock against the competition' out of the equation. ;)

You mean the fact that the uber guilds aren't getting a test server set up to have a competition like this? I agree with whoever said that if something like this were set up, most guilds would partake. I would imagine the majority of people in IB and DA don't really even care about the loot anymore as much as getting the kill. I haven't gotten an upgrade in months and there is really only like 1 item that is an upgrade until Kunark. I know a lot of people in both guilds are in the same position as I am.

[guineapig]

You mean the fact that the uber guilds aren't getting a test server set up to have a competition like this? I agree with whoever said that if something like this were set up, most guilds would partake. I would imagine the majority of people in IB and DA don't really even care about the loot anymore as much as getting the kill. I haven't gotten an upgrade in months and there is really only like 1 item that is an upgrade until Kunark. I know a lot of people in both guilds are in the same position as I am.

You mean new members, alts and apps are not getting geared on raids?

/boggle

I refuse to believe you guys do 60+ raids just for the love of the kill when it can be killed with 30. Where is there any pleasure in that? You guys are gearing toons and/or selling gear. It's all good. But don't say it's not for the pixels.

[Loke]

I said the majority - not all. Apps and new members are most certainly getting gear, and I'm happy that there is someone who can use it - but what I was trying to say (and felt was pretty clear) was that the veteran members of both guilds care less about the loot and more about the kill. Now, this is just an assumption based on my own personal opinion - but I know at least in IB there is a lot of people who, like me, really don't need any of the loot and haven't for quite some time.

Honestly, I really don't care about gearing apps or people's alts - I don't show up to raids at 2am (well, lately I haven't really shown up to raids at all) so that a guildie's alt can run around with God loot. When I do show up for raids it's because I'm competitive and want to get the kill - I haven't really considered the loot aspect of it for quite awhile.

[guineapig]

Honestly, I really don't care about gearing apps or people's alts - I don't show up to raids at 2am (well, lately I haven't really shown up to raids at all) so that a guildie's alt can run around with God loot. When I do show up for raids it's because I'm competitive and want to get the kill - I haven't really considered the loot aspect of it for quite awhile.

Fair enough. When was the last time you felt challenged on a kill with your current numbers / raid turn out? Or is it just more about making sure the other guys do not get the kill?

I'm just trying to figure out the motivation. Maybe there is something that could make a tournament more appealing to those types of people.

[Loke]

Honestly, there have been a couple CT kills that have been challenging simply because of the other guilds competing. The rest are all just about mobilization. Vox last night was kind of fun just because of how early the raid engaged. There was a draco kill that we actually lost that was kind of fun just because we had like 20 adds.

I mean, every mob outside sky is trivial under ideal conditions - but there are some conditions that make the encounter difficult when competition comes into play.

[guineapig]

Honestly, there have been a couple CT kills that have been challenging simply because of the other guilds competing. The rest are all just about mobilization.

When you say mobilization, are you referring to having people log out in the room where the target spawns and then log in when you get a text message? Or is it when you sit on the spawn but are still logged in?

[Shiftin]

When you say mobilization, are you referring to having people log out in the room where the target spawns and then log in when you get a text message? Or is it when you sit on the spawn but are still logged in?

At least 3 separate guilds are doing the first thing you mentioned for inny / nagafen / fear when the window is at least halfway elapsed.

We haven't done the second thing you're mentioning in almost 2 months since a nagafen that was very late in window and 3 guilds were trying to do the same thing. Someone accused us this week of poopsocking nagafen while a few of us were clearing fire giants. People tend to assume that if you have an IB or DA tag over your head, and something big spawns in or near the zone, you're poopsocking.

We don't really camp in perma for vox frequently either. Vox popped pretty early in window this week and almost everyone there for the kill had to log on, pop a potion and run to perma, get buffs etc.

The fact that a lot of IB are playing on the beta server is very helpful for our mobilization.

[Trademaster]

IMO. the poopsocking going on by the big guilds isn't because they feel they're the best, or for the challenge, but rather to deny others the chance at the drops. Especially if the drops are sellable. if nobody but someone in guild x can get an SSOY for example, then they can basically charge whatever they want to for it. And, it'll be good practice for when Kunark opens and they can move on to mo0nopolize those end game spawns. Heck with a large enough guild, they could monopolize old world and kunark end game spawns both. Just think of the imaginary currency they could amass, and of course wave their epeens about at other geeks with limited to no life.

[Scrooge]

IMO. the poopsocking going on by the big guilds isn't because they feel they're the best, or for the challenge, but rather to deny others the chance at the drops.

Truth, since the olden days when we only had 2 raid guilds on the server, hence (one of the reasons) why there was a rotation in place between the 2.

[Hobby]

A rotation between IB and DA would be soley on them to set up and follow. I am all for seeing them split bosses and not raid against each other, but allowing other guilds to compete. DA gets naggy/ct and IB gets vox/inny, then swap. If TMO/div/doze/ whoever else wants to compete, go for it. But DA and IB would not go after the same mob.



Anyways, like i said...I am all for watching people do this. Beta is open, naggy vox ct and inny are all spawning frequently... However, there are some distinct difference between beta and live... I guess the mobs are kinda more powerful in a sense?

But yeah, get a group together -- pm me.. ill go over there and watch and 100% res and everything.


Now, if you want a TEST server to do this then too damn bad. We are not going to set up a 3rd server for a guild competition.


come to think of it, beta to do this would fail...as most people are above 50 now. Only thing that i could to offer death loops....

[thxer]

I think this is a pretty neat idea. Back on my old server we had a guild called The Pantheon which I always admired, they managed to down big targets and get geared out with some severely minimal numbers.

This might actually be a positive source of competition.

[guineapig]

come to think of it, beta to do this would fail...as most people are above 50 now. Only thing that i could to offer death loops....

Yeah Hobby, that is the one thing I did not consider. For those that are well over 50 with new spells/abilities, it would put them at somewhat of an advantage on old world mobs, thereby changing the outcome of the kill time/number of deaths.

I'm glad you liked the idea though! :)

[Pycoba_rng]

Sounds great. To make these even more interested how about we place bets.... On real server.... Bob can hold the monies. The guild with the least amount of members to finish x target at x time wins the cash. This makes it far more interesting of course you need promoters.

[Knuckle]

Hi friends, would just like to point out p99 is mostly comprised of giant vaginas unwilling to compete in an environment where another guild can literally shit on you and take the raid mob they want. That being said, some of you guys are pretty cool. Have a nice day.

[fischsemmel]

Hi friends, would just like to point out p99 is mostly comprised of giant vaginas unwilling to compete in an environment where another guild can literally shit on you and take the raid mob they want. That being said, some of you guys are pretty cool. Have a nice day.

Did you get the name Knuckle yet?

[Knuckle]

Did you get the name Knuckle yet?

Hi Fisch, I will log into P99 tonight and find out if this injustice has been resolved.

[Noser]

DA could take out a dragon with 5 members and people would still find something to complain about.. like the strategy used or some such.

The thing about playing the numbers game is you really aren't factoring in anything else. Outsiders don't know what the healers, tanks, and various members are doing throughout the raid.

Unless you've actually raided with these guilds then i don't see why your opinion should even matter.

[Scrooge]

If DA could take out a dragon with 5 members (at lvl 50), I'd be REALLY impressed.

[Knuckle]

Charm Ice Giant w/ enc, keep junk buffs over charm, CH rotation with 4 clerics, slow with enchanter. PROFIT.
Slain Vox.

[Scrooge]

Easy to say, not so easy to do.

[Kharzette]

Daegarmo ran a test like this on live. Can't remember what it was called but there was no notice or anything. Just messaged guild leaders and told them to be in the arena as fast as possible. It was not only about beating the various bosses but how fast you could get there and get ready. The clock started with the message.

[guineapig]

Charm Ice Giant w/ enc, keep junk buffs over charm, CH rotation with 4 clerics, slow with enchanter. PROFIT.
Slain Vox.

The problem with this plan is that you need to give the giant magic resistance If you want a chance at it resisting the AoE fear. But if you give it magic resistance then you can't keep it charmed.

Not to mention that if the enchanter tries to land a slow without malo it will more than likely get resisted the first time. And if you're thinking tash followed by slow without a real tank keeping agro... your enchanter will get summoned so fast that not one cleric will have a chance to camp out.

This is really horrible plan for a 5-man raid on a dragon at level 50.