Proposal: Statue/Avatar Agreement

[Breaken]

To All Guilds With Posting Privileges,

<Awakened> would like to propose a Statue/Avatar Agreement that is available to any guild who signs it, meaning you have access to this section of the forum.


1. All server rules still apply.

(This means that during the first hour of Statue FTE, you are locked from engaging any raid mobs. Also, should you kill Statue, you are given 20 minutes of uncontested Avatar per server rules.)

2. A guild that FTEs Statue has 24 non-competitive hours where they are given one attempt. No other guild adhering to this agreement will FTE Statue until the total 24 hour period has concluded or until one attempt has occurred.

(This is 1 hour of server lock plus 23 additional hours where no guild in this agreement will lock it from you. After the 24 hours, or after a wipe, he is open to be FTEd per server rules)

3. Any guilds adhering to this agreement which assists in killing Statue / Avatar are expected to have adhered to the same restrictions (player made agreement and server rules) as the guild which got FTE.

(This means that if you seek help on either Statue or Avatar, the guild that assists must not have been locked into a mob when Statue FTE was obtained, and must not have killed any raid mobs during the initial hour of the Statue lock.)

4. If a guild that is not participating in the player made Statue rules FTEs Statue during another guild's 24 hours, it is prohibited for any participating guild to assist in that kill.

(This means that if a random guild who has not agreed to follow these rules locks into Statue (per server rules this is allowed), any guild that has posted they adhere to this 24 Hour rule may not assist. It prevents guilds from circumventing this agreement.)

5. Any guilds not signing this agreement will not be allotted the 24 Hours, but only the single server rule hour.

(This means if you want the 24 hours to schedule an optimal time, you must agree to the rules.)

6. Should any guild in this agreement feel a revision is required, whether addition or redaction, that guild shall make a separate post in this section of the forums with the request. Alternatively, the request can be made in Skype. If it is agreed by all parties, it will be edited on the agreement.

(The change is not official until it is posted into these rules. Any possible agreement in another thread or Skype does not constitute a change in rules.)

7. Should any guild decide to remove themselves from this agreement, they must post here stating their intentions with a minimum of 7 days notice of when they plan to leave the agreement.

(This week notice was arbitrary. We would be open to a longer notice)



It is possible there may still be loopholes and ways to abuse this agreement, but we believe this is a solid start. If you have some ideas to add to this agreement before signing, we can discuss those as well.

There are other agreements I will be writing up in the next few days that will be open to all as well. Thank you for reading.

Breaken
Leader of <Awakened>

[Breaken]

It has been suggested that a change be made.

1. All server rules still apply.

(This means that during the first hour of Statue FTE, you are locked from engaging any raid mobs. Also, should you kill Statue, you are given 20 minutes of uncontested Avatar per server rules.)

to

1. All server rules still apply.

(This means that during the first hour of Statue FTE, you are locked from engaging any raid mobs.)

And after #2, a new rule be added:

3. Any guild adhering to this agreement will not compete for Avatar.

(This means if you kill Statue, you are given the full hour to prepare for Avatar. If you wipe to Avatar, you are still afforded the full hour. Any guild in this agreement may not contest you.)

Awakened is good with these changes.

To address the skepticism of Rule 3, this rule prevents guilds from "holding" Avatar for later. A guild cannot have a non competitive guild FTE Statue on a respawn, go kill all the mobs they please, then later come back and kill Avatar of War using this non competitive guild's lock.

[Detoxx]

I think you're forgetting the original intention for this agreement. Your skepticism and unwarranted scenarios are taking away from the spirit and primary motive of why this agreement was created. It was simply created to cease the absurdity of wasting spawned AoWs due to the top guilds not being able to agree to something and kill Statue when it spawned, be it 5am or prime time.

This wasn't created to pad kill lists or brag with. We at Aftermath are not overly concerned with if, by some chance, a guild gets a free attempt at Statue or AoW that isn't Awakened or us. On the contrary, we feel it's good for the server.

Of all the agreements I posted, this is the one that has had little to no issues. Fixing what isn't broke is pointless. There hasn't been any rogue guilds FTEing statue to abuse this as of yet and if and when that happens, we can revisit this.

[Daldaen]

I like the non-compete for Avatar in addition to Statue.

I know the intent was more Avatars for the server. But I don't think it was ever clarified this was more attempts/experiences of the Avatar encounter or more Avatar of War pixels. I'd like to think it was the former.

I hope with this agreement CSG or some other guild elects to attempt AoW on their own and not run the risk of getting sniped or having a one and done attempt. A non-compete on this mob let's guilds/alliances fix what was wrong with a CH chain or Tank swap and give the mob another whirl. Something that's been lost on P99. Trial and Error of raiding. Too much people fear failure so they want to overcompensate with numbers or extra allies to guarantee success of the mob.

But I'm just a guy who dreams of classic raiding and the feels that go with it. Dunno the purpose for the rest of the suggestion, but whatever floats your boats? Seems like it's a lot of words for a very simple agreement.

--For clarity in not an officer in Awakened anymore. Dunno why I still even have access to be honest. I just like to post about classic raiding.--

[Breaken]

I think you're forgetting the original intention for this agreement. Your skepticism and unwarranted scenarios are taking away from the spirit and primary motive of why this agreement was created. It was simply created to cease the absurdity of wasting spawned AoWs due to the top guilds not being able to agree to something and kill Statue when it spawned, be it 5am or prime time.


This was Aftermath's motive. Every guild's motives were different.

Rustle signed it as part of a package deal to get a slot in the VP Rotation,

[10/4/2016 11:15:12 AM] Getsome: A fair VP rotation is our primary goal. In the old rotation both awakened and aftermath went an equal amount of times. Since csg/rustle assumed aftermaths spot during their suspension we were afforded on extra round prior to the events of last Friday.

Awakened signed it as part of a package deal with Hoshkar:

[10/4/2016 11:32:43 AM] Breaken: As I mentioned before, I don't care about the statue thing, I will do the 24 hours or not, doesn't bother me. But I don't want to rotate him.

[10/4/2016 11:33:49 AM] Breaken: We don't really want to benefit anywhere. I've told you our concern, the Cleric staff coming out of the game.

CSG signed it because they just want everyone to get along.

This wasn't created to pad kill lists or brag with. We at Aftermath are not overly concerned with if, by some chance, a guild gets a free attempt at Statue or AoW that isn't Awakened or us. On the contrary, we feel it's good for the server.

If this were true, you would agree with our proposal. Instead, what you mean is, you don't mind if a guild kills Statue as long as they invite you to Avatar. This proposal forces guilds to ask other guilds not named Awakened or Aftermath to help. Since the original agreement was made, I believe I am correct in saying the only time Statue has been FTEd by a different guild has been on a server respawn outside of maybe twice by Rustle. On those respawns, neither Awakened nor Aftermath are willing to sit for an hour, so this forces them to ask other guilds. You are upset that they cannot ask Aftermath. This agreement does not stop guilds from asking for help. It does lower their chances they will receive help from Aftermath or Awakened. Isn't that what you are saying you want?


[10/8/2016 4:59:34 AM] Detoxx: whos here?
[10/8/2016 4:59:44 AM] Detoxx: csg rep?
[10/8/2016 4:59:46 AM] Detoxx: awakened?
[10/8/2016 6:52:14 AM] Breaken: Yo
[10/8/2016 7:41:11 AM] Nemce: I'm awake
[10/8/2016 7:42:13 AM] Detoxx: u8 kill aow?
[10/8/2016 7:42:31 AM] Detoxx: or statue
[10/8/2016 7:42:45 AM] Nemce: statue
[10/8/2016 7:42:51 AM] Detoxx: why would u do that lol
[10/8/2016 7:42:54 AM] Detoxx: u had 24 hours
[10/8/2016 7:42:56 AM] Nemce: we wanted statue loot
[10/8/2016 7:42:58 AM] Detoxx: and id hjave helped!
[10/8/2016 7:43:06 AM] Nemce: it was 4am or something
[10/8/2016 7:43:07 AM] Detoxx: u had 24 hours tho
[10/8/2016 7:43:15 AM] Nemce: Europeans... I have no idea what they are doin
[10/8/2016 7:43:17 AM] Nemce: lol
[10/8/2016 7:43:39 AM] Nemce: i think they wanted a statue and a quick move on other things


Of all the agreements I posted, this is the one that has had little to no issues. Fixing what isn't broke is pointless. There hasn't been any rogue guilds FTEing statue to abuse this as of yet and if and when that happens, we can revisit this.

This is your opinion. Our opinion is that every repop this has been abused. We stated this every single time. From the logs I posted, you can see CSG has agreed in the past as well.

If you would like to enter into this agreement, you can sign it, however there is nothing to be "revisited". This is our proposal to the "raiding guilds" of the server (those who can post here). This is the agreement we will keep with those that sign.

[bktroost]

K so two things in play here:

IN A REPOP SCENARIO:

1) Having a non-capable guild tag Statue for later so a AoW guild can help down it with them when they are done killing on a repop
2) A guild FTEing statue in order to kill AoW later in their prime time.

To address the first point:

I think its a very important thing that this change prevents fake tags for later, prearranged manipulation of the rule.



To address the second point:

If this new rule removes the ability of a guild to tag statue and continue to kill other mobs in a repop then this rule is pointless.

Say it is 4am. No one is killing AoW alone at 4am on this server. Its a repop. If anyone tags Statue with this rule they are choosing statue+AoW>all other repop targets. You are forcing this rule to lock people out of content in order to get an AoW.

I can promise you that if this rule goes into place CSG will be killing Statues just for the purpose of looting Statue and many, many AoWs will poof to the void on repops if we can get FTEs. Not at all in an aggressive or spiteful way. It just makes more sense. I'm not passing up a chance at 20 mobs+statue for a prime time shot at statue+AoW.

I cannot see any good sense in AG agreeing to any agreement that locks a guild completely into Statue+AoW>any other target on a repop.

[Breaken]

If this new rule removes the ability of a guild to tag statue and continue to kill other mobs in a repop then this rule is pointless.

No, you can do as you have in the past. FTE Statue, wait one hour, and then continue killing mobs. This is what you have done previously and it would still be allowed.

1. All server rules still apply.

(This means that during the first hour of Statue FTE, you are locked from engaging any raid mobs.)

[bktroost]

Ah I completely misunderstood. Thank you for the clarification.

[Detoxx]

Theres always the simple solution. Rotate Statue. Barrier of entry is being able to kill AoW as a single guild or entity. We rotate several other things and we're in perpetual Velious. Could even make thos mob follow the C / R / FFA model. Its a 5 Day spawn and AoW is very hard so there wont be a long line of guilds on the rotation.

Anything that makes this game require less "tracking" is a win in my eyes.

[Culkasi]

In lack of a rotation, I'll sign off on the rules listed in OP

[bktroost]

In lack of a rotation, I'll sign off on the rules listed in OP

as will I.

[Breaken]

Great. I believe (and you can correct me if I am wrong) you mean the OP with the changes that followed. The current agreement as signed by Awakened, Azure Guard, and Europa is as follows:

1. All server rules still apply.

(This means that during the first hour of Statue FTE, you are locked from engaging any raid mobs. After this hour, you are free to FTE and kill raid mobs while still holding rights to Statue.)

2. A guild that FTEs Statue has 24 non-competitive hours where they are given one attempt. No other guild adhering to this agreement will FTE Statue until the total 24 hour period has concluded or until one attempt has occurred.

(This is 1 hour of server lock plus 23 additional hours where no guild in this agreement will lock it from you. After the 24 hours, or after a wipe, he is open to be FTEd per server rules)

3. Any guild adhering to this agreement will not compete for Avatar.

(This means if you kill Statue, you are given the full hour to prepare for Avatar. If you wipe to Avatar, you are still afforded the full hour. Any guild in this agreement may not contest you.)

4. Any guilds adhering to this agreement which assists in killing Statue / Avatar are expected to have adhered to the same restrictions (player made agreement and server rules) as the guild which got FTE.

(This means that if you seek help on either Statue or Avatar, the guild that assists must not have been locked into a mob when Statue FTE was obtained, and must not have killed any raid mobs during the initial hour of the Statue lock.)

5. If a guild that is not participating in the player made Statue rules FTEs Statue during another guild's 24 hours, it is prohibited for any participating guild to assist in that kill.

(This means that if a random guild who has not agreed to follow these rules locks into Statue (per server rules this is allowed), any guild that has posted they adhere to this 24 Hour rule may not assist. It prevents guilds from circumventing this agreement.)

6. Any guilds not signing this agreement will not be allotted the 24 Hours, but only the single server rule hour.

(This means if you want the 24 hours to schedule an optimal time, you must agree to the rules.)

7. Should any guild in this agreement feel a revision is required, whether addition or redaction, that guild shall make a separate post in this section of the forums with the request. Alternatively, the request can be made in Skype. If it is agreed by all parties, it will be edited on the agreement.

(The change is not official until it is posted into these rules. Any possible agreement in another thread or Skype does not constitute a change in rules.)

8. Should any guild decide to remove themselves from this agreement, they must post here stating their intentions with a minimum of 7 days notice of when they plan to leave the agreement.


I want to go back and address this one phrase

unwarranted scenarios

As I have told every guild we have ever entered into agreements with, I believe most, if not all, controversy comes from unclear rules. There are countless scenarios these raids can play out, and no one can think of them all until they happen. When they do, it becomes an interpretation disagreement. I believe discussing these scenarios now, before they occur, clears things up. This is why the explanations of these rules help.



Breaken
Leader of <Awakened>