Open Letter to Nilbog & Co: Raid Item Nerfs

[Rygar]

I wanted to make a realistic case for some item nerfs, more specifically items that trivialize the raid scene (racing and encounters). Part of the initial appeal of EverQuest was difficult end-game raid encounters, as game knowledge increased certain items became helpful shortcuts that made encounters easier… changing some of these items can help recapture some of that classic magic.

For starters: the Shiny Brass Idol (http://wiki.project1999.com/Shiny_Brass_Idol). It is constantly farmed and used to make racing a trivial affair. Guilds create accounts with alts parked at ToV loaded up with these items, as well as corpsing additional idols and staging them in strategic locations.

The initial intention of this item being a situational ‘save your butt’ one-time insta click has been lead horribly astray and is now just fuel for the raid machine. Nerfing this item can be a good first step to make racing more interesting (may need to look at other items with this effect as well).

Possible Nerf Suggestions:

Make this item unusable in designated Raid / Racing zones (specifically ToV)
Add a 5-second casting time

Next up: SoulFire (http://wiki.project1999.com/SoulFire) & Reaper of the Dead (http://wiki.project1999.com/Reaper_of_the_Dead). Not a lot of need to explain this one, seeing clerics and all forms of other classes farm this item for use during raiding is disappointing and just blocks Paladins and Shadowknights that want to complete the quest for themselves. Even from a roleplay standpoint, I fail to see how anyone outside these designated classes would complete this quest much less have the ability to call forth the magic contained in this item that is tuned to a specific class.

Possible Nerf Suggestions:

Make Paladin and SK usable only
Make Equip to cast

Finally: Aggro Management items, specifically Midnight Mallet (http://wiki.project1999.com/Midnight_Mallet). Back in my day, agro management was something that was crucial to a raid, melee and casters had to be careful not to over-do it, especially early in a fight else a wipe or at least some mob bouncing would occur. On certain pulls, it was near guaranteed your shaman would die, sacrificing themselves to get off that crucial slow (resists hurt and caused chaos). Certain classes would even pop their Riposte disciplines to get a mob into position and let the warrior build some agro before they die. Nowadays, on the pull, tanks dump a fully charged Midnight Mallet into the mob and everyone engages immediately… it is one of the most used and abused items on the raid scene. Other items have this effect such as root nets, so it really is more than just a Midnight Mallet problem.

Possible Nerf Suggestions:

Make Midnight Mallet usable by only Cleric and Shaman
Add a 5-second casting time (don’t believe you parry / riposte / dodge during this time, and can be interrupted)
Make the item No Drop (doesn’t solve the problem, but slows it down)

Just some suggestions from a humble casual and occasional raider, thanks for listening! I know haters will say, “LOL #NotClassic”, but there has been some precedent such as not implementing original version of Wavecrasher, FTE messages, etc. and is just meant to restore that classic in spirit feel to the game... Love the project you’ve built, keep up the great work!

[khanable]

Ban leveling beyond 55 because it makes killing dragons easier

[arsenalpow]

They broke hoops because it trivializes raiding, why wouldn't they continue with other game breaking items? Soulfire should be pally only, nerf wort pots too.

[Erati]

Next up: SoulFire (http://wiki.project1999.com/SoulFire) & Reaper of the Dead (http://wiki.project1999.com/Reaper_of_the_Dead). Not a lot of need to explain this one, seeing clerics and all forms of other classes farm this item for use during raiding is disappointing and just blocks Paladins and Shadowknights that want to complete the quest for themselves. Even from a roleplay standpoint, I fail to see how anyone outside these designated classes would complete this quest much less have the ability to call forth the magic contained in this item that is tuned to a specific class.

Possible Nerf Suggestions:
[LIST]
Make Paladin and SK usable only


Soulfire is for the Paladin epic 1.0 and has nothing to do with any Shadowknight quest.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=417

^ is the Sword you get from the Lucan testimony, notice no Shadowknight can equip so its pretty hard to take this open letter serious when you didnt even bother to research these items. I believe you are thinking about "Ghoulbane" which is used in both the Paladin and SK epic but it is a dropped item from upper guk.

[arsenalpow]

Soulfire is for the Paladin epic 1.0 and has nothing to do with any Shadowknight quest.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=417

^ is the Sword you get from the Lucan testimony, notice no Shadowknight can equip so its pretty hard to take this open letter serious when you didnt even bother to research these items. I believe you are thinking about "Ghoulbane" which is used in both the Paladin and SK epic but it is a dropped item from upper guk.

He's saying reaper should be SK only like the soulfire should be pally only. Equip to use essentially.

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

On live tanks were using mallets well past pop.

[Erati]

They broke hoops because it trivializes raiding, why wouldn't they continue with other game breaking items? Soulfire should be pally only, nerf wort pots too.

'Hooping' down raid encounters was cheese and retarded, very easy to see a nerf but all these items he lists serve purposes that are typical during a raid encounter, they just broaden the sources of where healing or aggro can come from albeit instantaneously.

Soulfire/reaper isnt even that big of deal these days with 1 hour locking. Idols while important are solely used in the unclassic FTE mario kart races so by that OP's initial premise of bringing back the classic feel the the raid scene is flawed by the fact we do races for FTE w 1 hour lock which was not classic.

[Erati]

He's saying reaper should be SK only like the soulfire should be pally only. Equip to use essentially.

gotcha but he was acting like Shadowknights are cockblocked from doing their quest like Paladins are which is false.

If they made Soulfire/Reaper require equipping then SK and Pal become useful to bring to a raid I suppose....hehe

[arsenalpow]

Make soulfire and reaper equip to use only
Add cast time to idol
Add cast time to wort pot
Consider nerfs to bladestopper, puppet strings, and prayers of life

[Triiz]

Idols while important are solely used in the unclassic FTE mario kart races so by that respects the initial premise of bringing back the classic feel the the raid scene is flawed by the fact we do races for FTE w 1 hour lock.


Agree with this. Hard to make the "classic feel" argument when nothing about FTE races are "classic feel" and that's what the item is used for. If you want "classic feel" your post should be asking for removal of FTE races.


edit: lol at the "I don't even play this server, but here's a list of things you should nerf" posts (not OP)

[Erati]

Clickies are the best part of EQ :( dont nerf my strings QQ

[arsenalpow]

Clickies are the best part of EQ :( dont nerf my strings QQ

Strings with a cast time will still work for things like OT hammers, but it will nerf the unclassic usage of building threat like with a midnight mallet.

On Phinny taunt works, so we just tank switch with that. /shrug

[Cecily]

I'm against mallets etc for the record; however, they are the only thing removing platinum from our economy at a considerable rate. That's more important than making raids slightly easier.

[Erati]

Strings with a cast time will still work for things like OT hammers, but it will nerf the unclassic usage of building threat like with a midnight mallet.

On Phinny taunt works, so we just tank switch with that. /shrug

Lets get a taunt fix up in here - what the heck is broken with ours?

( Taunt does work on P99 but not as consistent, ask Bellringer about Statue taunting )

[arsenalpow]

I'm against mallets etc for the record; however, they are the only thing removing platinum from our economy at a considerable rate. That's more important than making raids slightly easier.

I'm sure strings, prayers, and wort pots are also bleeding plat. For the lessor guilds port stones also cost a bit (thanks cucs)

[arsenalpow]

Lets get a taunt fix up in here - what the heck is broken with ours?

( Taunt does work on P99 but not as consistent, ask Bellringer about Statue taunting )

Taunt can fail but it's not a complete failure. I'd say taunt works 60-75% of the time. AE taunt off the AA snaps aggro like a charm though.

[snead]

real classic is 51% owned the mob.

[Ivory]

Ban leveling beyond 55 because it makes killing dragons easier

I agree! Max level 39!!! Let's do this thing! -rarwarhghg!!!-

[Daldaen]

Never add non-classic cast times to clickies. That's red level stuff.

After the timeline is done... I can get behind making Reaper SK only and SoulFire Paladin only though, which was a Luclin change. 30 second cast time on Reaper also happened around then.

As for DA Idols... You're currently not allowed to use Spirit of Scale or Crown of Rile spam during races. If they wanted they could extend that to no DA Idols. But all that will push is more 60 bards with group DA.

The more realistic solution Nilbog and Haynar are working on. No more ToV bind spots and 600' or so Lazy Aggro range. Both of which would negate the typical style cross zone pulls and would allow them to remove the footrace rules in ToV entirely allowing them to just pull however they wish or clear however they wish. Making ToV a no CSR zone where the only real rules need to be don't purposefully train another guild and respect FTE. Without those two simple rules if you went full chaos, I am not sure if anything could get killed.

[Tankdan]

I support this

[Jimjam]

I remember around when Dragons of Norrath came out. A dev was posting about furious bash (makes bash cause more aggro). Apparently they had only just realised that bash was not working as it was intended since first release of EQ (the melee stun aggro was meant to be equivalent to that of melee stun aggro). Rather than fix bash and shift the balance they have created around this mistake, they instead decided to improve shield aggro and add other incentives to shields.

Seeing as some raiders were using mallets anyway in classic I think maybe mallets should be left alone. If we are going to make non-classic changes, I would like to see bash 'fixed' (and also taunt, which was another overlooked bug for a very long time; it simply refused to work on higher level mobs, instead of simply having a lower rate of success (this was another mistake commented on by a dev).


That's what I recall, but who knows, maybe I made those things up in my head long ago!

[khanable]

Is there documented proof that people used mallets in classic? Even as a classic warrior I never heard of this being done :/

And out of curiosity, do mallets even work on phinny? Are they used?

[maskedmelon]

I like Dald's idea, but I'd also be for removing item recharging (I know it would not fix most of the issues) even though it is classic because it was unintended and makes absolutely no sense from an RP standpoint. I mean wtf, your weapon gets re-magicalized if you sell it to a merchant who already had a magicalized one or de-magicalized if sold to a merchant who already had an empty one in stock. That do t make no sense at all :c

[arsenalpow]

Is there documented proof that people used mallets in classic? Even as a classic warrior I never heard of this being done :/

And out of curiosity, do mallets even work on phinny? Are they used?

Never use mallets on Phinny. Recharging items isn't a thing there. Very early on we'd use puppet strings for a bit of aggro because we had like 20 of them but now our tanks are 60 so taunt actually works well for tank transitions.

[Jimjam]

Is there documented proof that people used mallets in classic? Even as a classic warrior I never heard of this being done :/

And out of curiosity, do mallets even work on phinny? Are they used?

No idea if there is documented proof. On that part of my post I was just parroting above. Perhaps we've been deceived!!!

[khanable]

So the warrior builds threat on engage the old fashion way? And people wait for assist?!

[arsenalpow]

So the warrior builds threat on engage the old fashion way? And people wait for assist?!

Usually a warrior starts with riposte to build a bit with a tight chain, debuffs and slow land, then the chain slows, assist is called. We call for tank switches in vent, after two CHs the next tank taunts. It's easy peasy.

[khanable]

Ooh y'all have the staggered timers for discs..

weird

[arsenalpow]

Ooh y'all have the staggered timers for discs..

weird

It's tremendous. Feels goog to innfer flame and have stonestance still available. Sometimes we use Rangers to build aggro because weaponshield is gross. Other times we let Relbaic tank and he just dies because he's an iksar (and to a lessor degree an SK)

[Erati]

@Cucs

Pretty sure mallets work like they do here just without recharging there isnt much of a point. Also I dont know how to find Lyguna on there, I tried to take a ruby to her once and after 2 hours of not seeing her I gave up and sold to a vendor hehe.

[arsenalpow]

@Cucs

Pretty sure mallets work like they do here just without recharging there isnt much of a point. Also I dont know how to find Lyguna on there, I tried to take a ruby to her once and after 2 hours of not seeing her I gave up and sold to a vendor hehe.

It's just not worth it. You can build aggro through a ranger if necessary and the aggro level will carry to the warrior through taunt. It functions like it's supposed to.

[Erati]

right I was just saying that mechanically they more than likely still click from inventory instantly and will produce aggro like they do here

its just not efficient and there are better ways to have a tank MT for a raid as you described

[Daldaen]

On live a Belly Caster mob, if you cast on the mob from out of its Belly range, the effect generates nearly 0 aggro (it's basically social aggro on the first click and nothing from then on).

If you want to test, drop 5 mallet charges into a rooted ToV dragon. Then run in on a warrior with Fortitude. Have a monk turn on autoattack and the ToV dragon will instant flip to the monk.

Or just test it on some fire Giants. Spam cast snare on them from out of range, see how well that works for you to pull aggro.

I'm about... 78.54% sure this is a classic mechanic. Not something they recently changed on Live. Which would surely make the current meta of P99 change up a bit when you can no longer mallet dragons out of trains.

[fadetree]

I support these changes. I am all for going not classic on these items and mechanics, due to the fact we don't have a classic player base.

[Rygar]

In regards to mallets being used in classic, I've no doubt they were used, I just never saw it as a widespread "Everyone needs to carry a mallet" scenario. At least on Torv server past Velious, it was not common knowledge. When agro management revolves around right clicking an item, it just seems EasyQuest and removes an important variable from the raid equation, and basically lets the warrior tank with any type of weapon.

In regards to the poster mentioning I was insinuating that SKs are blocked from their epic because of reaper farming, I wasn't at all. A Reaper can give an SK some value to a raid encounter as can a SoulFire to a Paladin, let them have that small bit of value instead of trivializing the item to other classes. If an SK or Paladin wanted to complete the appropriate quest, let them do so unhindered by all the other classes farming the item for their guild.

I think if the original devs could see what these items would do 3 years down the road, there would have been major changes. I know a lot of people complain how easy WoW has become, I think these items just take away some of the inherent difficulty from classic EverQuest and just make the game easy mode.

[Erati]

Removing Soulfire/reapers will kill alot of fun hardcore players have during 'rushed' engages while also making it harder for smaller guilds to compete on the same level as the big boys since established guilds have already build an empire on utilizing such things.

For relaunch server - sure great ideas - for this server though, nope.

[Handull]

...Part of the initial appeal of EverQuest was difficult end-game raid encounters, as game knowledge increased certain items became helpful shortcuts that made encounters easier… changing some of these items can help recapture some of that classic magic.

For starters: the Shiny Brass Idol (http://wiki.project1999.com/Shiny_Brass_Idol). It is constantly farmed and used to make racing a trivial affair.

Yep, racing for FTE on mobs so your guild has a one hour lock-in really helps us recapture that classic magic. How dare people use items in the game to make that easier!

It's also more exciting than every race being between 20 rogues 'running' up with sneak/hide on. In before you request a sneak/hide mechanic nerf too.

[Ravager]

No need to nerf anything. Velious fixed everything as promised.

[maskedmelonpai]

Let's make some unclassic changes to items due to the unclassic raid scene we have implemented. Kappa

Nah, I think we make the unclassic changes to items and the. Make the raid scene classic (except for those changes). It's like a super trade-off of unclassicness that leaves things much fuller and more satisfying ^^

[Jimjam]

No need to nerf anything. Velious fixed everything as promised.

Everyone making pixel angels in the tundra!

[Dolalin]

Raiding here is a bit whack and unclassic due to this stuff, I say change it.

[lurk]

Its classic. Deal with it. I think it adds depth to the game.

As for people talking about taunt, it doesnt work 60+. In classic it was common to use WS ranger to buuld agro before assist. AE taunt brought instant agro, and fungus beast glands too which made the decision to nerf recharging easy. AoW was such a pita during velious because a smooth tank switch was fuckin hard. AE taunt changed the game for warriors, plus weapons like BoC, bloodfrenzy and hatebringer.

[Rygar]

Its classic. Deal with it. I think it adds depth to the game.

As for people talking about taunt, it doesnt work 60+. In classic it was common to use WS ranger to buuld agro before assist. AE taunt brought instant agro, and fungus beast glands too which made the decision to nerf recharging easy. AoW was such a pita during velious because a smooth tank switch was fuckin hard. AE taunt changed the game for warriors, plus weapons like BoC, bloodfrenzy and hatebringer.

Interesting that you mention a tough tank switch during Velious... Probably because mallets weren't common knowledge. That was classic, so how can I "deal with it" with all this easy mode stuff running rampant?

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Is there documented proof that people used mallets in classic? Even as a classic warrior I never heard of this being done :/

And out of curiosity, do mallets even work on phinny? Are they used?

On live I app'd to the local uber guild right between kunark and velious. I recall a conversation I had with another warrior in the guild about aggro and mallets were brought up. So they were used at least that early.

[HippoNipple]

It's pathetic raiding guilds on blue have to use all these items.

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Its classic. Deal with it. I think it adds depth to the game.

As for people talking about taunt, it doesnt work 60+. In classic it was common to use WS ranger to buuld agro before assist. AE taunt brought instant agro, and fungus beast glands too which made the decision to nerf recharging easy. AoW was such a pita during velious because a smooth tank switch was fuckin hard. AE taunt changed the game for warriors, plus weapons like BoC, bloodfrenzy and hatebringer.

Agreed. Many times I have corner tanked raid mobs standing on the corpse of a ranger. Felt goog.

[Spit]

Why does red have every thing the OP said implemented + no recharging.

[Cecily]

Because it's a bigger deal in PvP.

[lurk]

Personally i had never heard of mallets on live. I read every class forum, FoH forum and most top guilds updates... when chat channels dropped i was in all class channels, modded one and in one restricted to just raid chars. Fungusbeast glands were what were abused and caught attention of devs. I was pretty serious about my farming, often throwing away chardok slow sticks on pets to see how far i could push it. Call me ignorant but if i knew about mallets back then id keep plenty just for the slow.

Edit: im an autist. Really havent even played p99 for years but i still hang around for the nostalgia

[Spit]

Because it's a bigger deal in PvP.

What pvp? and also instant TL boxes probably more OP then any of those , considering TL box is infinite , idols / SoulFires etc are lore...

[fadetree]

Agreed. Many times I have corner tanked raid mobs standing on the corpse of a ranger. Felt goog.

And I have been that Ranger. Sometimes I lived.

[Ikon]

Its classic. Deal with it. I think it adds depth to the game.

As for people talking about taunt, it doesnt work 60+. In classic it was common to use WS ranger to buuld agro before assist. AE taunt brought instant agro, and fungus beast glands too which made the decision to nerf recharging easy. AoW was such a pita during velious because a smooth tank switch was fuckin hard. AE taunt changed the game for warriors, plus weapons like BoC, bloodfrenzy and hatebringer.
Its not really classic - Classic your clickies would be rotting within 24 hours on corpses as corpses decayed in 24 hours.

Corpses in classic

7 days offline
24 hours online on any account (-7 hours for each hour you were online or at logon)

[maskedmelon]

And I have been that Ranger. Sometimes I lived.

Did you shove his foot off your chest when he stepped on you, or did you politely ask him to move it while explaining you weren't dead yet?





^^

[Fazlazen]

I am signing this thread. make classic Eq great again!

[Fazlazen]

Removing Soulfire/reapers will kill alot of fun hardcore players have during 'rushed' engages while also making it harder for smaller guilds to compete on the same level as the big boys since established guilds have already build an empire on utilizing such things.

For relaunch server - sure great ideas - for this server though, nope.

Fuck off, idiot. These items should have been removed a long time ago.

[Kagey]

I never used agro clickies on live for tanking in velious.
However assist call was always 30 secs or so in.. Or when we got lucky procs.. And we had much more agro battles then on this server.

Rogs here can engage at 99% fade through the fight and be fine.

[Swish]

I just came by to say http://i.imgur.com/LdCm8tR.gif

[Phantasm]

If these items are being utilized as they could have been in classic why change them now?

Also why are these things bad? Luck favors the prepared, if a DA idol helps why wouldnt you use it?

If these items were *able* to be used in classic then let it be so imo.

[Ikon]

If these items are being utilized as they could have been in classic why change them now?

Also why are these things bad? Luck favors the prepared, if a DA idol helps why wouldnt you use it?

If these items were *able* to be used in classic then let it be so imo.
If we were on the classic timeline sure. If corpses decayed as they did in classic sure. If lazy aggro was the same (soon to be fixed) sure. If monk FD-> sneak didn't memblur as if all mobs were level 32 and lower sure.

Problem is there as certain aspects to the mechanics that make these items way more prevalent and more powerful than they did on live.

Consider this: On live your corpse decayed after 24 hours if you were playing, this meant it would be extremely difficult to get a bunch of CHíng items on multiple corpses that you could then run to and loot to click when your particular mob spawned. Just one example.

You also couldn't bind in dungeons on live outside of vanilla EQ.

[Spit]

Mobs were also much easier on live resists actually worked.

If you're gonna make classic changes implement them all

[derpcake]

I'm about... 78.54% sure this is a classic mechanic. Not something they recently changed on Live. Which would surely make the current meta of P99 change up a bit when you can no longer mallet dragons out of trains.

iirc this was changed on live because it was possible to build so much agro on a mob from outside its melee range that other characters could melee / cast on the mob unharmed, this was an issue with rooted mobs mainly

quite sure about it

[Ikon]

iirc this was changed on live because it was possible to build so much agro on a mob from outside its melee range that other characters could melee / cast on the mob unharmed, this was an issue with rooted mobs mainly

quite sure about it
Nah belly casters have been in since at least Kunark. Giants and dragons are usually bellycasters - Heres a post from 2001 regarding Solusek B:

They also have the ability to summon their target to their feet if their target isn't in melee range. This leads to the amusing "You will not evade me, Jekhar!" lines that are broadcast throughout the zone. In order to cast spells on them, casters need to be in melee range or the spell will always be resisted.
http://www.angelfire.com/or2/relentless/firegiant.html

Another from a different forum, 2001:


The normal fire giant warriors hit for 137 max. Same with fire giant wizards. The wizards are really easy since they waste time casting weak nukes and only start hitting you near death when they are low on mana. Make sure your cleric knows that spells have to be cast from within melee range to have an effect on the giants.
http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?8584-Farming-King-Tranix

From 2000
Further yet lies the Fire Giants in their temple. The strategy for clearing out the Fire Giants is long and detailed, and requires a highly skilled team of high level players to take on. None of these creatures can be mesmerized at all or charmed except by very high level enchanters, and they will resist all spells if the spellcaster is out of melee range.
https://msu.edu/~oconne53/eqatlas/nagafenslair.html

Regarding Faydedar, 2000
Magic Resistance helps you keep from being feared, but it will not help you with dispells/debuffs. That is why most guides recommend that you fill your first 6 slots with junk buffs first like See Invis, Endure Disease, etc.
Also, you do need to be in melee range of Fay for your spells to land.
http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-13210.html

[Daldaen]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.

[Rygar]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.

Earlier you mention the lazy agro / non-melee range casting would stop pulling dragons out of trains. Wouldn't raiders just resort to casting "Cancel Magic" line of spells to generate the agro to snap out of a train? If I understand you right, this would still generate agro outside of melee range since it is unresistable (I think it was mentioned this line of spells is unresistable, but I'm not exactly sure).

[Daldaen]

Tashan or Malo would work because unresistable.

Cancel magic generates very very little aggro. I don't know if it is actually enough to trump body aggro on mobs.

But the thing is most ways people tag out of trains are done with monks or rogues using instant click slow/root/charm items. Which I don't believe is a classic option... if the mob is a belly caster. Which is basically just limited to like... Kunark/ToV Dragons mostly.

[Ikon]

Nah the question I was posing wasn't the fact that bellycasters existed.

What I was suggesting was that the way EQ Calculates aggro, the "Add Aggro" check may have been performed AFTER the "In Belly Cast Range" check. Meaning, unlike a typical resisted spell, your spells cast from out of Belly Cast range do not generate any aggro when they resist. Which is how it currently functions on Live.

My suspicion is that this is how EQ has handled bellycasters all along, making it classic. If derpcake is right I would *imagine* there are some posts somewhere around 2002 where people talk about this strategy for permarooted ToV dragons, casting spells from far away to build aggro and then going in. Then some posts at a later date claiming it no longer works. I haven't found any such posts yet, though I've not looked very extensively I will admit.
That would make sense working like that. Otherwise you could like you said generate insane aggro with non damaging spells before engaging. Would still probably pull dragons out of trains though since you did interact with it, like cancel magic or taunt - if dragon was pulled by proximity and not similiar spell / arrow etc.

[lurk]

I think thats a very interesting topic that you will never find proof for. Theres no doubt that guilds in luclin prebuilt agro on rooted mobs...ToV wasnt even rooted until luclin? and they were given call of the zero.

[Rygar]

Tashan or Malo would work because unresistable.

Cancel magic generates very very little aggro. I don't know if it is actually enough to trump body aggro on mobs.

But the thing is most ways people tag out of trains are done with monks or rogues using instant click slow/root/charm items. Which I don't believe is a classic option... if the mob is a belly caster. Which is basically just limited to like... Kunark/ToV Dragons mostly.

The summoned Mage staff has 1 insta click charge of Cancel Magic, think it has a nice range on it too (200? 225?). I have tagged royals out of trains with this staff in Chardok.

[Daldaen]

Hmm that's true. Maybe I'm mixing up my aggro tables. Playing on three servers with different aggro code gets me confused sometimes.

Yea I would guess mage cancel sticks to tag would become the new meta. But warrior would need to wait until mobs get in melee range before using a Mallet for example to pull off the tagger.

[Ikon]

I think thats a very interesting topic that you will never find proof for. Theres no doubt that guilds in luclin prebuilt agro on rooted mobs...ToV wasnt even rooted until luclin? and they were given call of the zero.
I don't like to use my memory cus it sucks but doing Srra I'm sure tank would use clickies before running in. Remember the pissed off Rhaags standing there eyeballing MA :)

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Lotta that s stuff wasn't widely known back in the day. If you are in a top guild you're not likely to give away the secrets that let your guild do what you do.

To lurk, I was in overlord channel, if you remember that one.

Also remember something from maybe the shamans crucible about initial aggro being capped. Example: shaman pulls with slow and it generates less aggro than it normally would.

[lurk]

Dispell is the lowest agro spell you could possibly cast. Even if a belly caster resisted your charm, you cannot claim it produces zero agro. I seriously doubt there was classic code that made belly caster resists different than regular. Even then, there is still some agro.

[Daldaen]

Lotta that s stuff wasn't widely known back in the day. If you are in a top guild you're not likely to give away the secrets that let your guild do what you do.

To lurk, I was in overlord channel, if you remember that one.

Also remember something from maybe the shamans crucible about initial aggro being capped. Example: shaman pulls with slow and it generates less aggro than it normally would.

There also eventually became a cap on debuff aggro. IE all rebuffs generated only 400 Hate at cap. So a slow and flame lick were equivalent.

[Daldaen]

Dispell is the lowest agro spell you could possibly cast. Even if a belly caster resisted your charm, you cannot claim it produces zero agro. I seriously doubt there was classic code that made belly caster resists different than regular. Even then, there is still some agro.

Think about it from a code standpoint, the order in which the code performs calculation.. I'll give a classic example that I can prove.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195756&highlight=Bladestopper

When using a spell, the game begins the cast, then checks your inventory if you have sufficient reagents, then at the end of the cast either proceeds with the cast and then eats the reagent OR cancels the cast due to lack of reagent.

What happens with instant clickies: the spell instantly casts, so there isn't a casting phase to check for a reagent. So no reagent is consumed.

----

What I'm suggesting is similar for Belly Casters. The "Add X Hate" portion of the code due to spell casts occurs before the resist check (regular) is performed. We know this because All spells generate the same amount of aggro regardless of whether they land or are resisted. Snares that get resisted still pulls mobs out of trains. Likewise Concussions on immune mobs still reduce your aggro. The aggro total of the spell is frontloaded and occurs before the resist check.

But what I'm saying, is it is *possible* that the way the game checks against Belly Casters, that is the first check in the order the code checks for resist. And it occurs BEFORE the "Add X Hate" portion of the code. So because the code says nothing occurs after the Belly Caster check fails, it may not add any aggro because the code says that chain of calculation is done before it gets to the add aggro phase.

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

There also eventually became a cap on debuff aggro. IE all rebuffs generated only 400 Hate at cap. So a slow and flame lick were equivalent.

I believe you. But it's hard to say when this took place. Many changes were not in patch notes.

[Daldaen]

I'm pretty sure that hardcap was a post Luclin thing. See how favored Trident and Willsapper were in Velious. I recall some Furor posts about this. Tash sticks or some such??

[Raev]

If you accept bullshit psychological models, OP, Kubler/Ross suggests you are in stage 3:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

You need to skip to stage 5 and realize that raiding on this server WILL ALWAYS SUCK. The staff here want a competitive server, i.e. they enjoy watching players get up at 5AM on New Years for a server reset. Since the content is not challenging and never will be, Project 1999 raiding will always be about poopsocking. It has been this way for the entire life of the server because that is the way the staff want it.

So either a) accept that it sucks and play here anyway, b) move to another server like Phinigel/TAKP/P2002, or c) go outside.

[pasi]

I'm pretty sure that hardcap was a post Luclin thing. See how favored Trident and Willsapper were in Velious. I recall some Furor posts about this. Tash sticks or some such??

You are correct with this.

Too lazy to re-type this, so gonna be a boss and quote from 2013

I don't want to derail this thread, but procs that stun and debuff should not be capped in this era. That means the hate given by these effects 'should' be a function of the NPC's HP rather than the 400 hate cap on non-casted stuns.

I'm not sure if stun and debuff procs are modifier based on the HP of mobs over here, but if the server is using flat values for these spells, it would explain why melee hate seems relatively weak compared to procs in an exp setting. In a raid setting, procs should be WAY more aggro than melee hate.


Threat per debuff has always been modified to some degree by the NPC's HP. This modifier still exists on EQ, but it was normalized later on (relative to this server). To my knowledge, debuffs should have a very massive multiplier with Velious code.

In addition to this, caps were put on weapon proc components. These same stun proc component would cap at 400 hate; whereas if that same stun were casted, it would generate 1200 hate.

If anybody cares about the math: http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/stun_e.htm

Against Captain Stonefist (lv65), Energy Sap increases Hate by range 398.00 to 407.00.

To my knowledge, there's almost no way of assigning a specific hate value for spells pre-Luclin. So, it's a bit touch-and-go with pre-Luclin code. My guess is that the P1999 devs might be using the values from data after the addition of the weapon proc cap. None of the research threads (i.e. the one I posted or Braels melee one) had a constant value to compare to until SKs received the Terror line of spells.

Edit: Hi Lor!

Actually, come to look: These changes were February of 2001. Should be applied for Velious currently. Above post does not apply!

[Rygar]

If you accept bullshit psychological models, OP, Kubler/Ross suggests you are in stage 3:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

You need to skip to stage 5 and realize that raiding on this server WILL ALWAYS SUCK. The staff here want a competitive server, i.e. they enjoy watching players get up at 5AM on New Years for a server reset. Since the content is not challenging and never will be, Project 1999 raiding will always be about poopsocking. It has been this way for the entire life of the server because that is the way the staff want it.

So either a) accept that it sucks and play here anyway, b) move to another server like Phinigel/TAKP/P2002, or c) go outside.

Think it sounds like you are in Stage 2? I don't think the staff gets some kind of pleasure out of people poopsocking, they just created a classic server and people play / raid on it as they will.

I only raid about once a month due to RL, I don't poopsock, track, or pre-park. I consider myself a 'raider of opportunity'. What I was suggesting wasn't meant to fix any kind of poopsocking, just remove some of the easy-mode stuff and make things more like they were before aggro management revolved around a few key items.

[Ikon]

Think it sounds like you are in Stage 2? I don't think the staff gets some kind of pleasure out of people poopsocking, they just created a classic server and people play / raid on it as they will.

I only raid about once a month due to RL, I don't poopsock, track, or pre-park. I consider myself a 'raider of opportunity'. What I was suggesting wasn't meant to fix any kind of poopsocking, just remove some of the easy-mode stuff and make things more like they were before aggro management revolved around a few key items.
Also they are still making signficant changes to the game - see the lazy aggro code which Haynar has said should be finished this week. Not being able to easily train to zonelines now but having to facewalk mobs like we had to on live is not just accepting the status quo. They are working to make things more difficult and classic.

Lets see how easy it is to midnight mallet a dragon out of a train when the dragon and the train decides they dont want to chase you around wherever you want to take them anymore.

[Raev]

Well, all psychological models are bullshit anyway :p

But no, I'm well past the anger stage. The fact that the staff here want a competitive server, despite seeing the results over the past 6 years, is just a fact.

[Ravager]

Well, all psychological models are bullshit anyway :p

But no, I'm well past the anger stage. The fact that the staff here want a competitive server, despite seeing the results over the past 6 years, is just a fact.
The psychoanalytical ones are bullshit for sure, but I wouldn't discount Evolutionary Psychology or Cognitive Psychology just yet; at least not the models that make testable predictions.

[Ennewi]

If you accept bullshit psychological models, OP, Kubler/Ross suggests you are in stage 3:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

You need to skip to stage 5 and realize that raiding on this server WILL ALWAYS SUCK. The staff here want a competitive server, i.e. they enjoy watching players get up at 5AM on New Years for a server reset. Since the content is not challenging and never will be, Project 1999 raiding will always be about poopsocking. It has been this way for the entire life of the server because that is the way the staff want it.

So either a) accept that it sucks and play here anyway, b) move to another server like Phinigel/TAKP/P2002, or c) go outside.

If bullshit means nearly impossible to prove than yeah, but 1-5 aren't said to happen in order or anything, it's all supposedly interchangeable and overlapping which makes sense. Ex. Being angry but accepting something with bitter resignation — a death, a president, the state of the world, virtual or real.

I get what you're saying but can't agree altogether about raiding on this server always sucking. If a new player joins p99 wanting to achieve it all than yeah, their experiences at the high end will probably suck big time. Maybe it's that raiding sucks more and more the higher you go, the deeper you get involved with it, idk but there are people on the periphery who show up and have a good time overall. Maybe going after less sought after targets (low-hanging fruit) is just a form of bargaining, and maybe this post is a form of denial, but it's permafrost outside right now so going out isn't much of an option.

a) accept that it sucks and raid lightly or focus on groupable content b) find a good single-player game c) make your own server the way you want it.

[Daldaen]

I don't see how they can nerf Ivandyr's Hoops (and simultaneously break lifetap) and not restrict the use of Reapers and Soulfires. If anything it should be the other way around.

Ivandyrs Hoops were an easy target during Kunark with 32k HP mobs. Being able to instantly spam 900 DMG in unresistable damage on a dragon per person meant a raid of about 40 could spam down a target easily with no challenge.

SoulFire/Reapers definitely trivialize certain aspects of Velious raids specifically AoW/Tunare where CH gaps should be deadly / where Clerics running OOM should be deadly. But with SoulFire/Reaper you can easily cover these gaps instantly and with enough of them you can sustain a Tank for an extra minute or so if you need to finish off the mob.

Don't think that holds a candle to instantly burning a target down from 100%.

Once P99 timeline finishes I can get down with classic Luclin class restriction on SoulFire and Reaper though.

[Kagey]

Id hope they dont release the shitty parts of luclin nerfs without actually releasing the fun zone parts of luclin..

And luclin will never be released here, so luclin era nerfs should never come.

This would just be another way to drift away from a so called 'Classic" server.

want it nerfed? go play phinny maybe or another new prog that will be released.

[nyclin]

Once P99 timeline finishes I can get down with classic Luclin class restriction on SoulFire and Reaper though.

why though? it wouldn't be timeline appropriate at all

people only want these items nerfed because they think that it'll hurt raiders (and possibly make it easier for them to score mobs)

should honestly revert the nerfs to ivandyr's too, and fix lifetaps. 32k mobs aren't current content and i don't think anyone is going to be butthurt if a guild decides to hoop down a rotated trak or VP dragon

[fastboy21]

The content is already trivial. If you remove all the clickies it would still be trivial. It doesn't solve any of the problems that p99 has imo.

[Naethyn]

These changes would greatly hamper ungeared new guilds looking to compete. This really wouldn't change much for Awakened. For aggro clicks you'd see things like spider nets and scepters used instead.

[Ivory]

Once they do the chardok revamp....then we shall be approaching the time of Green....when all shall be new again and another generation of neked gnomes will spring forth from Akanon to cover the world!!!

[Daldaen]

why though? it wouldn't be timeline appropriate at all

people only want these items nerfed because they think that it'll hurt raiders (and possibly make it easier for them to score mobs)

should honestly revert the nerfs to ivandyr's too, and fix lifetaps. 32k mobs aren't current content and i don't think anyone is going to be butthurt if a guild decides to hoop down a rotated trak or VP dragon

Because at the point I'm suggesting (when all of Velious patches have been complete and you're at the Luclin launch patch) NOTHING is timeline appropriate. It's a time locked server and the timeline is off the rails into brand new territory. You could argue it should stay stagnant I suppose...

They have their artistic license to do whatever they want. They stated as much in the past, they're interested in doing some custom content once the timeline is finished.

I think drawing from the mechanics of Luclin, in regards to these two items, would be a good thing to change up the balance of the raid game. Really the only challenge of EQ is isolating the mob from its environment (which P99ers have gotten quite efficient at using bind points, unlimited chase range and counter trains), keeping the mob stationary for DPS to do their thing (basically only relevant on fearing dragons, as I heard CSG got to experience in DN today!) and keeping a Tank alive (which is made far too easy when every player on the raid has access to Reapers and SoulFires).

I am not in favor of non-classic game mechanics within the timeline of P99. It's why I hate the Epic level requirements and PBAE target limits. But once the timeline is done, all bets are off and they can change up things to add whatever level of challenge they want.

And to the other people posting "you just want this done so you can get free mobs". No, that's not a thing that's a delusion. Most of the people posting this want it does because it either kills their immersion or they just want to stick it to a certain subset of players. I HIGHLY doubt there is any personal motivation in these types of posts. No one is sitting back thinking "finally we will get this Ikatiar now that Awakened can't use Reapers to keep their tanks alive". That just doesn't happen. All of these suggestions in this thread are designed to poke people who enjoy the current raid scene by removing things they heavily lean on to raid the way they do.

Likewise the people claiming removing these things prevent newer guilds from climbing the ladder to compete... please. Newer guilds have enough trouble making sure all their raiders are level 60, let alone farming 8-hour respawn mobs for SoulFires or sinking 10-15k in recharges weekly into Reapers. None of these things would even come in a newer guilds radar if it were to get changed except *maybe* the midnight Mallet which can easily be replaced with a root net.

[Brocode]

make the fresh server not classic, done.

[Dolalin]

And to the other people posting "you just want this done so you can get free mobs". No, that's not a thing that's a delusion. Most of the people posting this want it does because it either kills their immersion or they just want to stick it to a certain subset of players. I HIGHLY doubt there is any personal motivation in these types of posts. No one is sitting back thinking "finally we will get this Ikatiar now that Awakened can't use Reapers to keep their tanks alive". That just doesn't happen. All of these suggestions in this thread are designed to poke people who enjoy the current raid scene by removing things they heavily lean on to raid the way they do.


I can't speak for all of CSG, but for me, none of these items were part of the raid game when I was playing on Lanys. They just weren't in the picture. Having raiding on P99 rely so heavily on them, as you say, ruins immersion and gimps the game. I don't want to play in a gimped raid scene, I want the real, hard EQ I remember. And I doubt I'm alone in that.

[mickmoranis]

oh god forbid classic items remain relevant god for bid that OP GOD FOR BID THAT

[Raev]

Again, the problem is EQ mechanics are miserable for direct guild to guild competition. There are any number of MMOs that were designed for good PVP (eg. DAOC, with an emu I think) but EQ is not one of them and without direct PVP it's even worse.

It does not matter whether or not Soulfires or Wort pots can be used. All Velious content is trivial to an 80 man zerg with voice chat, titanium gui, years to farm BIS gear, GINA, years of practice, etc. It would be easy enough to fix this by giving raid targets more and better abilities, but that wouldn't be classic, so it won't happen here.

[Ivory]

It does not matter whether or not Soulfires or Wort pots can be used. All Velious content is trivial to an 80 man zerg with voice chat, titanium gui, years to farm BIS gear, GINA, years of practice, etc.

UNLESS....max level was 39!!!! The game would be so hard!! It would be the great most epic years of everquest in the entire existence of mankind!! An achievement to rival the moon-landing!!!

There would ALWAYS be an epic challenge one step further that people would be trying to defeat!! It would take years just to figure out how to defeat something "easy" like taking down plane of fear!!!

[Ivory]

i'd play on your insane mode difficulty server ivory i'd play it so hard sheesh my hands are shakin just thinkin of it

Me tooooo. It would remove level grinds and make it all about adventure / equipment and working together. Lower guk just to go after frenzie for FBSS would require 2 groups. No solo shaman or necro perma camping it and then just trying to spam "WTS FBSS" in the tunnels so they can buy something else perma camped by some other solo necro or shaman :P

[NegaStoat]

UNLESS....max level was 39!!!! The game would be so hard!!

Out of curiosity I took a look at the EQ wiki for classes and what they'd have with a level 39 cap. All I can say is... Yes. Yes, I would play it. The more I think on it, the more intriguing the whole game world would become in terms of challenge and tactics.

[Ikon]

Again, the problem is EQ mechanics are miserable for direct guild to guild competition. There are any number of MMOs that were designed for good PVP (eg. DAOC, with an emu I think) but EQ is not one of them and without direct PVP it's even worse.

It does not matter whether or not Soulfires or Wort pots can be used. All Velious content is trivial to an 80 man zerg with voice chat, titanium gui, years to farm BIS gear, GINA, years of practice, etc. It would be easy enough to fix this by giving raid targets more and better abilities, but that wouldn't be classic, so it won't happen here.
If it'd still be trivial then it wouldn't matter if these bugs were fixed. Bugs in the sense that these items were never intended to be used the way they were used by players here and were eventually fixed (like 6 years ago going by a chronological timeline not an expac one).

[Daldaen]

The Titanium client is most of it. So many people would crash and burn if they were forced into a more classic client. It would be lovely.

[Ikon]

I am not in favor of non-classic game mechanics within the timeline of P99. It's why I hate the Epic level requirements and PBAE target limits. But once the timeline is done, all bets are off and they can change up things to add whatever level of challenge they want.
You know PBAE always had limits. I don't know what they were but none were ever unlimited - this is a classic change even if the actual number is possibly not classic.
Date : 11/02/2000

Topic : Area Effect Spells

This came of the official EverQuest message boards.

The rain spells aren't bugged. There is a maximum number of targets that all AoE spells can affect, as well as a maximum amount of damage that they can do. This was put in back in beta when people were training a ton of creatures and rain made them as easy to kill as any one creature. There are 3 different types of AoE spells in game. Their types are listed below in order of how many creatures they can affect and how much damage they do :

1. Rain

2. Radiate out from Caster

3. Radiate out from Target

- Gordon
https://web.archive.org/web/20021130120342/http://magecompendium.com/

Have to click on site link then go to February 2000, Week Ending 13th

[Daldaen]

Interesting quote.

The guy doesn't make sense though. Claims all AEs have max target limit (PBAEs didn't). Then claims they have a damage cap (never heard of this either). Then it is claimed they are listed in order of how many mobs they can hit and the order is Rain -> PBAE -> Targetted AE which... regardless of how you take that is wrong.

I love the evidence diving. But I'm very unconvinced by that quote that some hidden target cap existed on PBAEs. I grant there may have been some sort of limit on the number of mobs you can have on aggro (I think there are some early posts about this), but a PBAE limit I don't buy. Especially not a 25 mob one. People posted of 30-40 mob PBAE groups during Velious. During Luclin, when AE groups took off due to AAs, there were posts about many more Mob trains, which physically could've occurred just a month early in Velious it just didn't due to no need for AAs.

[Ikon]

Interesting quote.

The guy doesn't make sense though. Claims all AEs have max target limit (PBAEs didn't). Then claims they have a damage cap (never heard of this either). Then it is claimed they are listed in order of how many mobs they can hit and the order is Rain -> PBAE -> Targetted AE which... regardless of how you take that is wrong.

I love the evidence diving. But I'm very unconvinced by that quote that some hidden target cap existed on PBAEs. I grant there may have been some sort of limit on the number of mobs you can have on aggro (I think there are some early posts about this), but a PBAE limit I don't buy. Especially not a 25 mob one. People posted of 30-40 mob PBAE groups during Velious. During Luclin, when AE groups took off due to AAs, there were posts about many more Mob trains, which physically could've occurred just a month early in Velious it just didn't due to no need for AAs.
That quote is from Abashi from original EQ - real name Gordon Wrinn, he was Verants spokeperson and then promoted to its EQ Live Development Team.

[Danth]

That doesn't necessarily prove anything, since VI's staff was notoriously ignorant about the mechanics of their own game and also prone to lying ("Fiery Avenger quest is working!").

Danth

[Ikon]

Interesting quote.

The guy doesn't make sense though. Claims all AEs have max target limit (PBAEs didn't). Then claims they have a damage cap (never heard of this either). Then it is claimed they are listed in order of how many mobs they can hit and the order is Rain -> PBAE -> Targetted AE which... regardless of how you take that is wrong.

I love the evidence diving. But I'm very unconvinced by that quote that some hidden target cap existed on PBAEs. I grant there may have been some sort of limit on the number of mobs you can have on aggro (I think there are some early posts about this), but a PBAE limit I don't buy. Especially not a 25 mob one. People posted of 30-40 mob PBAE groups during Velious. During Luclin, when AE groups took off due to AAs, there were posts about many more Mob trains, which physically could've occurred just a month early in Velious it just didn't due to no need for AAs.
That quote is from Abashi from original EQ - real name Gordon Wrinn, he was Verants spokeperson and then promoted to its EQ Live Development Team.

Edit: If you think about it it makes absolute sense they have a damage cap. The total damage cap would be full spell damage on all affected npcs. If theres a limit of 50 and spell damage is 100 then the cap would be 5000.

That doesn't necessarily prove anything, since VI's staff was notoriously ignorant about the mechanics of their own game and also prone to lying ("Fiery Avenger quest is working!").

Danth
Lol seriously? A in time period post from a EQ developer is about as perfect proof as you could get other than time relevant code.

[Danth]

Of course I'm serious. Most anyone who was around back then ought to remember how dishonest that bunch was with their community. Mind you, I like the AE cap because it improves gameplay across the board....but I don't trust those guys' word any more than I trust the word of a fox guarding the henhouse.

Danth

[Ikon]

Of course I'm serious. Most anyone who was around back then ought to remember how dishonest that bunch was with their community. Mind you, I like the AE cap because it improves gameplay across the board....but I don't trust those guys' word any more than I trust the word of a fox guarding the henhouse.

Danth
We''ll have to agree to disagree. I played EQ for a number of years and have no memory of Verant lying. I'm sure they made mistakes but when it comes to evidence developer posts are pretty much at the top of the list for reliability.

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

We''ll have to agree to disagree. I played EQ for a number of years and have no memory of Verant lying. I'm sure they made mistakes but when it comes to evidence developer posts are pretty much at the top of the list for reliability.

Abashi didn't know necro dots could be cured or dispelled.

I would argue that most of the time info from the devs was unreliable.

[Ikon]

Abashi didn't know necro dots could be cured or dispelled.

I would argue that most of the time info from the devs was unreliable.
Evidence of this?

You can argue that but they are developers, they created the game. I would argue the people that developed the game and posted about it between 1999 and 2001 are much more reliable sources than a players memory 17-18 years later and more reliable than players in general.

[fastboy21]

I played EQ for a number of years and have no memory of Verant lying.

This made me laugh.

[Ikon]

This made me laugh.
Why? Its the truth. I do not recall any time that Verant lied to players. Should I?

[Ravager]

TL boxes are not infinite
If you are notColgate, who is Colgate?

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

Why? Its the truth. I do not recall any time that Verant lied to players. Should I?

If you are old enough, I guess.

[Ikon]

If you are old enough, I guess.
So basically the arguments are:

1. Verant were liars, everyone (not specified who this everyone is) knew it.
2. The developers who designed, developed and coded and then maintained the game didn't know anything about it.
3. The person in charge of communicating between the developers, coders and the EQ community didn't know what he was talking about.
4. You had to be a certain unspecified age to know about these things.
5. These are all facts because you remember this from 16 to 17 years ago.
6. You have no evidence other than your 16 to 17 year old memory but I should believe you anyway because.
7. Despite a time relevant post from an Everquest employee which completely contradicts what you are saying, you are right, because.

You've sold me :)

[NegaStoat]

We''ll have to agree to disagree. I played EQ for a number of years and have no memory of Verant lying. I'm sure they made mistakes but when it comes to evidence developer posts are pretty much at the top of the list for reliability.

I'm late to the party, but I distinctly recall Absor assuring magicians posting on the forums that their Elemental pets could accept traded weapons and would both hold and use them, just like Necromancer pets and Enchanter animations. This was back when weapon delay was still important to pets, and necros tore up the world using skellys armed with FS daggers.

Magicians submitted screenshots of the trades always failing, elementals would NOT hold or use weapons, and Absor earned the nickname "A BS'er" over the incident. Mage pets were hotfixed to hold and use weapons at the same moment pet attack speed was normalized regardless of weapon held. I dearly wish I could dig up his original quote but this was within the first 5 weeks of the game being live. Oldschool players will recall what I'm talking about if they were a pet user, I'm certain.

[Ikon]

I'm late to the party, but I distinctly recall Absor assuring magicians posting on the forums that their Elemental pets could accept traded weapons and would both hold and use them, just like Necromancer pets and Enchanter animations. This was back when weapon delay was still important to pets, and necros tore up the world using skellys armed with FS daggers.

Magicians submitted screenshots of the trades always failing, elementals would NOT hold or use weapons, and Absor earned the nickname "A BS'er" over the incident. Mage pets were hotfixed to hold and use weapons at the same moment pet attack speed was normalized regardless of weapon held. I dearly wish I could dig up his original quote but this was within the first 5 weeks of the game being live. Oldschool players will recall what I'm talking about if they were a pet user, I'm certain.
A lie is a deliberate attempt to mislead someone - it was a bug and was fixed with an emergency patch. Absor was not a coder afaik, all he could do was relay information from coders and testers to the community.

Date : 29/01/2000

Topic : Patch

January 28th, 7:00pm
Emergency Patch

The servers are currently being brought down individually for an emergency update. This update is being done to correct a bug in the server code that led to the instability that the servers have experienced over the past week. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Included with this patch are several changes that were not supposed to occur until the regular patch next week. These changes are inseparable from the changes required to fix the network problems, and as such are being implemented a little earlier than we would like. There will be additional changes in the next patch that we wanted to include with the current changes, however to reduce overall downtime and customer inconvenience, they are being postponed until next week.

Changes in Current Patch

Warriors

Warriors now have a chance to strike a "Crippling Blow" when berserk. "Crippling Blow" is much the same as a "Critical Hit" with increased damage and an integral stun.

Magicians and Necromancers

We discovered a bug whereby all NPCs will not utilize their "Dual Wield" skill unless they have a weapon equipped in their off-hand. This bug would not allow magician and necromancer pets to use their "Dual Wield" skill unless handed two weapons by their masters. Since magician pets could not wield weapons at all, they never used their "dual wield" skill.

Correcting this bug would cause all NPCs above the mid-20s to suddenly begin using their "dual wield" skill to attack players with their off-hand. This would cause a drastic shift to game balance, as most non-pet NPCs are generally considered balanced.

Magicians may now equip their pets with weapons. This will allow their pets to utilize their "dual wield" skill, thus increasing the number of attacks that the pet can make per round.

Since magician pets can now wield weapons, an ability previously reserved for necromancers, high level necromancer summons (44 or above) will now randomly cast spell effects upon the creatures they fight.

An additional change has been made to make it easier for necromancers and magicians to equip their pets. Previously, necromancers had to equip their pets with two *different* weapons in order enable them to "dual wield". This change allows magicians and necromancers alike to hand their pet two *identical* weapons, thus making it easier for them to get their pet to "dual wield".

These changes drew our attention to the disparity that exists between melee characters and caster pets. Both of these pets, after the initial round of changes, could wield certain weapons that would significantly increase their attack speed. We acknowledge that necromancers always had this ability, and apologize for our delay in addressing it, but weapons will no longer increase the attack speed (lower the attack delay) of a pet.

In the near future, several new spells are planned for necromancers of level 12 and above, including a new type of necromancer-only spell that is very group-friendly. We were planning to include these new spells with the changes in pet/weapon interaction, but those additions require downtime best restricted to the planned update schedule. We expect to implement the new spell effects in the next patch, tentatively scheduled for next week.

- The EverQuest Team

[Yuuvy The Destroyer]

So basically the arguments are:

1. Verant were liars, everyone (not specified who this everyone is) knew it.
2. The developers who designed, developed and coded and then maintained the game didn't know anything about it.
3. The person in charge of communicating between the developers, coders and the EQ community didn't know what he was talking about.
4. You had to be a certain unspecified age to know about these things.
5. These are all facts because you remember this from 16 to 17 years ago.
6. You have no evidence other than your 16 to 17 year old memory but I should believe you anyway because.
7. Despite a time relevant post from an Everquest employee which completely contradicts what you are saying, you are right, because.

You've sold me :)

Weather they lied or not I don't care. They were frequently wrong about how game mechanics worked. You would think the people who made the game would know everything about it but that isn't the case.

Mage pets being broken for 10 months is a good example.

Another is early on shamans couldn't train alchemy. It wasn't available on the gm.
And so whatever dev would roll a shaman, level it to 25 and train the skill np. But it still didn't work for players. Eventually they figured out why devs could do it in house but players couldn't. I don't recall how that one turned out.

[Swish]

Just disable item recharging and make these items must equip to cast and add cast times. Red server has to deal with it, why shouldnt blue? This shit trivializes raid content its fucking ridiculous.

[Ikon]

Weather they lied or not I don't care. They were frequently wrong about how game mechanics worked. You would think the people who made the game would know everything about it but that isn't the case.

Mage pets being broken for 10 months is a good example.

Another is early on shamans couldn't train alchemy. It wasn't available on the gm.
And so whatever dev would roll a shaman, level it to 25 and train the skill np. But it still didn't work for players. Eventually they figured out why devs could do it in house but players couldn't. I don't recall how that one turned out.
Unfortunately thats how software development works, especially with complex systems where you have teams of people working on different things. Might work in testing and then doesn't work when deployed. Or worse it works for 90% of people but not for 10%.

As you can see from the patch message posted a few posts up they had to deploy the mage pet changes against their wishes because they were 'inseparable' from the code causing connection issues.

You would think the people who made the game would know how the mechanics worked and they did. The problem is its a massive game with massive amounts of quests, mechanics, code and lots of people working on different things that all have to go together to create Everquest. If you read the dev posts on the forums back then you had Abashi and Absor answering questions and repeatedly saying, I'll have to check, I'll need to consult this team or that team, so no they didnt know everything no one could especially given the game was constantly changing.

Dev boards from 2001 - https://web.archive.org/web/20021030135447/http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/everquest/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=1&forum=Developer%7cAPO%7cs+Corner&DaysPrune=1000&startpoint=0

[NegaStoat]

Thanks for the research on the mage pet issue. I had to dredge that up from a looong while back. I think I will agree with the notion that the EQ staff went out of their way to not bald-face lie to their players, but the pet issue was one of those rare ones when the players were informed that they were wrong multiple times and the screenshot proof had to be handed off before they were even listened to.

At the time, it fostered some bad feelings from magicians not so much that the situation existed, but how their concerns and words were being treated by the company. Hence the nickname Absor picked up from it. I'm kind of sad that the topic of the post has been lost in this shuffle. I think it was over raiding, classic 'features', and not-so-clever use of them reducing intended encounter challenge? Our current players aren't wrong to voice some opinions for the hope of changes being made to the next server. No one wants a Chardok PL consumer service yet again.

[Bubbles]

As for proof the devs didn't know their posteriors from a hole in the ground....

As someone who beta-tested far, far, far too many zones in classic eq.. six words:

Plane of Sky

Plane of Fear (the first two weeks)

[Caiu]

The difference between instantly killing a mob and extending your attempt on said mob with complete heal clickies is quite a sum. One requires a raid force to kill raid mobs using raid tactics the other requires a couple jokers with corpsed hoops. I'd say you've missed the mark.

[Ikon]

The difference between instantly killing a mob and extending your attempt on said mob with complete heal clickies is quite a sum. One requires a raid force to kill raid mobs using raid tactics the other requires a couple jokers with corpsed hoops. I'd say you've missed the mark.
You dont need raid tactics to kill a raid mob if you have rogues, rangers, wizards, anyone able to lay on hands, casting heals that are better than CH clerics. That trivializes aggro management, it trivializes needing a tank that can last long enough to develop enough aggro before they get healed, it trivializes healing rotations, trivializes mana management.

Guilds on P1999 have had that ability for 8 years, guilds on live only had it for 3. Its arguable that its not classic to have had this going on for so much longer than it did on live.

[roks1]

Add an April Fool's REVERSAL OF FORTUNE instead of nerfing fun things. Upon spawning, boss monsters may gain the ability to flurry and rampage where they didn't before! up the ante, don't lower the bar 8^) For the sake of keeping things classic, the devs would simply have to respond that things are "working as intended".