Warrior AC, HP, and Sta

[shams]

Hey all,

I'm leveling up a warrior and have some questions about ac vs HP vs sta. I played a warrior (albeit only into the high 40s) on live and always set AC as priority number one, then sta or HP as priority number 2. Does this still make sense in P99? I saw a helm going last night that had 22ac +5sta and -30cha. I currently have a Skull Shaped Barbute on my warrior (lvl 10) and was thinking the high ac helm was better overall. However, one of my friends said that the SSB was better due to the hp bonus. So my questions are:

Do you think the SSB is better at level 10, but then at some later point the other helm with higher ac would be better? (SSB has 13ac while the other had 22).

In general, how should I be gearing, i.e. how much ac should I sacrifice if an item has considerable sta or hp bonuses?

Thanks and sorry for the poorly worded questions. Any answers will be helpful :)

[maskedmelon]

35hp is super useful at L10. The 5 sat will never beat that. As for the AC, there are supposed to be hard caps on item AC by level, but those don't appear to be in place on p99. Always seemed to me have st more AC yielded results regardless. Perhaps someone has parsed it? ^^

[shams]

AC is broken on this server...

Is it really? I made a post last week about trying to decide between a monk and a warrior and someone had said that ac isnt broken, that it was actually working the way it was supposed to? Not trying to disagree, just trying to wrap my head around reality haha.

[shams]

35hp is super useful at L10. The 5 sat will never beat that. As for the AC, there are supposed to be hard caps on item AC by level, but those don't appear to be in place on p99. Always seemed to me have st more AC yielded results regardless. Perhaps someone has parsed it? ^^

The more you know!

[khanable]

AC was broken early on in the server's life. It was changed around Velious release and had a noticeable impact on tanking end-game content. No clue if it's been re-broken over the last year, though.

IIRC at the time of fix Rogean had mentioned there is a softcap at some value - no hardcap.

edit: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2032260&postcount=42

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2032352&postcount=57

[shams]

Thanks, Khanable. Straight from the horse's mouth. So it is worthwhile sacrificing a bit of hp/sta for AC if the difference is substantial I guess?

[Daldaen]

One thing I'd love to see parses of is two different tanks on Thifling Focusers in PoGrowth.

Because those stupid mobs have so much HP it allows you to get a decent length parse on a singular mob to reduce the RNG effect a tad.

One from a high AC tank and one from a low AC tank (same level and class), both not using Defensive or Evasive.

My general feeling is AC works but not nearly as well as it should. AC was absolute king on EQ from Classic until SoF when Heroics came in. Even then it stayed very high in consideration, certainly ahead of HP.

Fun fact this last Test patch on live EQ completely revamped the UI to show actual AC and ATK values rather than the mojo voodoo magic shown on P99. It also shows stats like Velocity (runspeed) and Mitigation/Avoidance.

[khanable]

Thanks, Khanable. Straight from the horse's mouth. So it is worthwhile sacrificing a bit of hp/sta for AC if the difference is substantial I guess?

Well that was specific to a level 60 tanking what was, at one point, a fucking beast of a mob.

I have no idea how well it scales to the lower levels. It may very well be that AC just isn't tuned that well for the lower level crowd.

I realize I haven't answered your question directly - I don't think there is an answer for it, though.

[khanable]

One thing I'd love to see parses of is two different tanks on Thifling Focusers in PoGrowth.

Because those stupid mobs have so much HP it allows you to get a decent length parse on a singular mob to reduce the RNG effect a tad.

One from a high AC tank and one from a low AC tank (same level and class), both not using Defensive or Evasive.

My general feeling is AC works but not nearly as well as it should. AC was absolute king on EQ from Classic until SoF when Heroics came in. Even then it stayed very high in consideration, certainly ahead of HP.

Fun fact this last Test patch on live EQ completely revamped the UI to show actual AC and ATK values rather than the mojo voodoo magic shown on P99. It also shows stats like Velocity (runspeed) and Mitigation/Avoidance.

I haven't played a level 1 here in quite some time, but I know over on TAKP I got a full set of leather armor for my level 3 ranger and I was practically unkillable because the AC made such a huge difference! lol

I'd like to see some parses too.. Raev started some with Vindi, not sure where they ended up. Would be nice to parse the low-end game too!

[shams]

Well that was specific to a level 60 tanking what was, at one point, a fucking beast of a mob.

I have no idea how well it scales to the lower levels. It may very well be that AC just isn't tuned that well for the lower level crowd.

I realize I haven't answered your question directly - I don't think there is an answer for it, though.

No, you answered it fine :) The discussion helps increase my understanding!

[shams]

Well that was specific to a level 60 tanking what was, at one point, a fucking beast of a mob.

I have no idea how well it scales to the lower levels. It may very well be that AC just isn't tuned that well for the lower level crowd.

I realize I haven't answered your question directly - I don't think there is an answer for it, though.

No, you answered my question fine :) This discussion helps increase my understanding!

[shams]

Hmm, do you all feel there is any advantage in having a warrior in a leveling group over a SK or Pally, or even a monk? I feel like ac was what warriors had going for them and if that is debatable here, I'm just a tad discouraged.

[Daldaen]

I haven't played a level 1 here in quite some time, but I know over on TAKP I got a full set of leather armor for my level 3 ranger and I was practically unkillable because the AC made such a huge difference! lol

I'd like to see some parses too.. Raev started some with Vindi, not sure where they ended up. Would be nice to parse the low-end game too!

You're playing on TAK too?

I saw Raev the other day during one of our Severilous attempts. His Shaman had got eaten running through EJ and needed a Rez. Such a classic experience, so immersed.

[maskedmelon]

No, shams. Pal/SKare super fantastic for subpar groups and teammates who are still learning or not paying attention. Warriors are ideal for tanking endgame content. Monks are good for everything else. It the r aeon why there are so many of them.

There are many people who feel differently though and care not so much about efficiency. They care more about consistency. A monk tanking mitigates more via avoidance, so the damage they receive comes more in spikes than win warriors. That can worry some healers ^^

[khanable]

You're playing on TAK too?

I saw Raev the other day during one of our Severilous attempts. His Shaman had got eaten running through EJ and needed a Rez. Such a classic experience, so immersed.

well I don't know if I would call it playing.. I'm dinkin' around

I saw raev too. I made a toon in cabilis and he was the only person in zone. Made me chuckle.

[khanable]

Hmm, do you all feel there is any advantage in having a warrior in a leveling group over a SK or Pally, or even a monk?

not really, no

[Rygar]

I think it really depends on how you level. If you solo a lot, I would go for ac (as hp will only help you at full health). On my monk I hit the soft cap of 120 item ac for my class (meaning the values of just the ac on my items, not converted ac in the UI... Warrior soft cap is higher), while I haven't parsed it I do notice a difference when I put on resist gear and miss the soft cap.

At low levels, a 55 or 65hp bonus should trump anything less than a 5ac gain, but I would not equip something that only gives 20hp and drops your ac. I would not worry about stamina as those bonuses kick in much larger at the end game.

In regards to broken ac, I heard it works in calculating properly, yet it doesn't display properly in the client. That is why I go by adding up the ac on my items to see if I'm at the cap or not.

[shams]

No, shams. Pal/SKare super fantastic for subpar groups and teammates who are still learning or not paying attention. Warriors are ideal for tanking endgame content. Monks are good for everything else. It the r aeon why there are so many of them.

There are many people who feel differently though and care not so much about efficiency. They care more about consistency. A monk tanking mitigates more via avoidance, so the damage they receive comes more in spikes than win warriors. That can worry some healers ^^

Ugh, thanks for the info :)

[maskedmelon]

Ugh, thanks for the info :)

Yeppers ^^ Don't let it deter you though, because like I said many people prefer the consistency of warrior mitigation and many others do not like hybrids because of low dps. You will still get groups ^^

[Detoxx]

AC is broken on this server... load up on str and HP at low level. you wont be able to get you dex high enough to make it worth while with proc weapons so just do your best to out DPS your group. Once you get into mid 30s-40's u can switch to ago weapons and build up your dex set.

Also taunt is broken.

Good luck :P

Taunt works just fine if you know how to use it :p

It only works if you do NOT have aggro and if it is a successful taunt, it puts you 1 hate point above everyone else.

[Raev]

Based on my parsing, AC works on this server, and works very well. I would evaluate 1AC as at least 5HP when selecting gear while leveling up.

And yeah, I'm having a lot of fun on TAKP. Everyone is much more relaxed there, and the game mechanics are a lot more challenging. Currently I'm trying to conquer Droga on a boxed 37 monk / 34 shaman and bringing out every trick in the book . . .

[shams]

Big thank you to all the advice posted here!

[Daldaen]

Taunt works just fine if you know how to use it :p

It only works if you do NOT have aggro and if it is a successful taunt, it puts you 1 hate point above everyone else.

********IF********

The mob is below level 66. That is the issue. Of the raid mobs warriors face:

VP Dragons - 66
Kael Mobs - 70 (Statue is 59)
ToV Dragons - 66 (Vulak is 70)
Dain - 70
Yelinak - 70
Cazic Thule - 70
ST Golems - 70
Zlandicar/Klandicar/Sontalak - 70

So on mobs where it's extremely important to flip back aggro to yourself with a successful Taunt on a raid, those raid mobs can't be taunted. Flurry Drakes are 65 and Dragon Guards are 60, but because we have unclassic ToV binds and no chase range, these mobs don't matter on most P99ers raids... yet.

Literally Statue is the only raid boss of any consequence outside of Kunark that can be taunted.

This is however, a classic inferiority of the ability (P99 Patch (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2093728&postcount=1)). For grouping content yep. Nothing enrages me more than a dumby tank who spam Taunt thinking it helps them when they are already tank. That just means the ability is down and cannot be clicked when a Cleric or wizard pulls aggro.

[Swish]

boxed 37 monk / 34 shaman

http://i.imgur.com/wyUp2aW.gif

[maskedmelon]

There nobody to play with on Takp, so you have to play with yourself. You don't really have any choice in it :c I solo'd a ranger there a bit, but then got all hung up trying to decide what other me's to make and what to name my other selves, so I have not played for a while there :c it fun though and everyone is super nice ^^

[Detoxx]

Warriors don't use taunt on raid mobs. That and this person is talking about leveling

Also, there's a difference between not working and not intended to work.

[fadetree]

IMO Knights are preferable tanks to wars, and monks too, in almost all group grind situations. The reason is snap aggro via spells. Actually up to 45 or so a Ranger does pretty well too. Monks are great but they don't have snap aggro.
This is extremely true early on, but gets less and less true as you approach 60. Strong end game mobs and raid targets are where wars get noticeably better.

[Daldaen]

Fortunately leveling on there doesn't take forever. Getting up into the low 50s range isn't a huge time sink and once you're in that range you can often find some groups.

The way EXP bonuses work in groups over there is way more favorable than P99/Classic was:

1 member - 100% / 1 = 100%
2 members - 120% / 2 = 60%
3 members - 140% / 3 = 46.7%
4 members - 220% / 4 = 55%
5 members - 260% / 5 = 52%
6 members - 260% / 6 = 43.3%

So going from 3 players (maximum you can box) to 4 players everyone gains more EXP in the group. Making it advantageous to invite a solo player to your 3-man or 3-box group even if they're AFK 99% of the time.

[Swish]

Nice way to encourage boxing. No thank you.

[Daldaen]

Warriors don't use taunt on raid mobs. That and this person is talking about leveling

Also, there's a difference between not working and not intended to work.

Of course they don't. Because the developers were pretty dumb until around Luclin when they realized maybe the main tanking class should have some real ways of generating aggro.

And as far as leveling goes, pre-60 it only works up to your level. So again, on mobs that it's super important to pull back aggro like a yellow or red con festering hag in Unrest it won't work.

For your run of the mill Sebilis group though yes Taunt works just fine. But in the lower level range you're often killing yellow/red cons together with your group and you'll find it to be ineffective.

[maskedmelon]

It actually setup to encourage grouping because boxing is allowed by limited to 3 accounts. That the reason the first three groupmates don't get that much bonus, but a fourth add a nice one ^^

[Daldaen]

It actually setup to encourage grouping because boxing is allowed by limited to 3 accounts. That the reason the first three groupmates don't get that much bonus, but a fourth add a nice one ^^

This. The EXP bonus values are just classic for the era. That's part of the reason they capped boxing at 3 toons.

I apologize for derailing the thread though. I love some immersive EQ talk. I believe the OP got the answers he sought though.

[Jimjam]

Hey all,

I'm leveling up a warrior and have some questions about ac vs HP vs sta. I played a warrior (albeit only into the high 40s) on live and always set AC as priority number one, then sta or HP as priority number 2. Does this still make sense in P99? I saw a helm going last night that had 22ac +5sta and -30cha. I currently have a Skull Shaped Barbute on my warrior (lvl 10) and was thinking the high ac helm was better overall. However, one of my friends said that the SSB was better due to the hp bonus. So my questions are:

Do you think the SSB is better at level 10, but then at some later point the other helm with higher ac would be better? (SSB has 13ac while the other had 22).

In general, how should I be gearing, i.e. how much ac should I sacrifice if an item has considerable sta or hp bonuses?

Thanks and sorry for the poorly worded questions. Any answers will be helpful :)
If skull shaped barbute is the standard of your equipment you will have already completely drowned out the value of mobs ATK, and be way over the AC cap for your level anyway.

The skull shaped barbute is going to be good for a long time; the 35 hp is roughly equivalent to 6 Sta at level 60, plus the MR is going to up your chance to resist roots, blinds, etcs by about 5% more for mobs of your level (IIRC).

For the record the classic devs told us AC caps for trilogy era were 163 at 51 and 289 at 60. I have no idea if these are used on p1999, or what the return is for exceeding caps, but it makes sense to use these as a guideline in my view.

For those who way AC doesn't work, have you never compared taking hits naked vs geared? When naked max hits are so much more common! The live dev post I mentioned previously regarding AC caps also taught us the amount of damage a 51 paladin at the ac cap would take against mobs a few levels beneath it. Out of curiosity I took a look at my own logs in KC and a 51 paladin I was grouping with was taking damage roughly equivalent to what the live information suggested he should.

AC did go under a change on p1999 not so long ago, it certainly has merit now, even if mob atk values aren't perfect. However, there is sometimes a point where more AC stops being better, particularly at the earlier levels. I suspect the case raised by the OP is one of these instances.

Of course they don't. Because the developers were pretty dumb until around Luclin when they realized maybe the main tanking class should have some real ways of generating aggro.
Interestingly melee-stun (bah!) was intended to have similar aggro to spell-stun, but the bad code wasn't picked up on until circa Dragons of Norrath, at which point the way shields worked had just become an accepted part of the game. Rather than fix bash, they decided to increase focus on furious bash, shield block AAs and so on.

It would be interesting to have an eq emu where bash/taunt (which was often bugged not to work on yellow+ mobs) actually work as intended from day 1.

I think it really depends on how you level. If you solo a lot, I would go for ac (as hp will only help you at full health). It does improve how much hp you can heal to with bandages, which matters. That said, I agree the important thing is to have 'enough' AC so you start to plateau on returns. Then you focus on other things that will help you.

[Raev]

There nobody to play with on Takp, so you have to play with yourself.

I think the low population is actually a good thing. If you have enough players to make finding XP groups in the 30s easy, you're going to have 1000 players at max level 'competing' for everything. So playing on TAKP is like playing on Red, but you have POK to help get around, so you can hop from Unrest to Highkeep or whatever without too much trouble (and no retards who think killing you with their raid gear twink is the epitome of skill, which is a plus). Still, I was originally going to single box a monk, but I ended up adding a shaman as the path of least resistance.

I went in very against boxing but my opinion is a bit more nuanced now. Boxing makes the game more interesting; for example you can box a Bard/Mage and do all sorts of interesting pulls with the bard toolbox plus COH as a kind of Velious-era fading memories. EQ also has a really low APM, so boxing makes things more interesting there. It's not super easy to handle pulling on a monk while canni dancing on a shaman. Boxing is also classic.

On the other hand, boxing also makes the game less relaxing as you perform all those actions, and it can make people less social as they all run around with their boxed armies. I haven't really found that to be a problem on TAKP as people are all very friendly, but on Project 1999 people would be boxing all cash camps for days on end and the raid scene would be even worse. If TAKP becomes more popular in the future we could easily see a 20 guild rotation with everyone just boxing a ton. I think they might have been better off with a 2 box limit.

[shams]

This. The EXP bonus values are just classic for the era. That's part of the reason they capped boxing at 3 toons.

I apologize for derailing the thread though. I love some immersive EQ talk. I believe the OP got the answers he sought though.

I did and no worries haha.

[fadetree]

Of course they don't. Because the developers were pretty dumb until around Luclin when they realized maybe the main tanking class should have some real ways of generating aggro.

And as far as leveling goes, pre-60 it only works up to your level. So again, on mobs that it's super important to pull back aggro like a yellow or red con festering hag in Unrest it won't work.

For your run of the mill Sebilis group though yes Taunt works just fine. But in the lower level range you're often killing yellow/red cons together with your group and you'll find it to be ineffective.

What they were shooting for was to have the GROUP learn and participate in aggro management. This is why wars seem strangely handicapped with aggro. Remember, they were into things that would force group dependence. Didn't work out, but I bet that's what they had in mind originally.

[maskedmelon]

Wars also suffer from server age and resulting gear availability. In classic, everyone waited to assist because they and the group could likely die if they didn't. Here, even poor characters are so heavily geared that that isnt a concern :c

[Daldaen]

They failed magnificently in that regard. Warriors weren't entirely fixed until the GoD Discipline revamp where they were given a snap aggro Discipline line and their discipline timers were split apart.

[pasi]

They failed magnificently in that regard. Warriors weren't entirely fixed until the GoD Discipline revamp where they were given a snap aggro Discipline line and their discipline timers were split apart.

This statement invokes 14 years of pent up rage at the EQ warrior community circa GoD.

Anyhow, what era is TAKP currently in? I figure the plan is PoP, but are they there currently?

[khanable]

This statement invokes 14 years of pent up rage at the EQ warrior community circa GoD.

Anyhow, what era is TAKP currently in? I figure the plan is PoP, but are they there currently?

Velious era but the books are active with that knowledge zone thing

and bazaar too i think

[Lazie]

Velious era but the books are active with that knowledge zone thing

and bazaar too i think

This and AC actually works!

[Milly Baynilly]

uh oh

[Daldaen]

This statement invokes 14 years of pent up rage at the EQ warrior community circa GoD.

Anyhow, what era is TAKP currently in? I figure the plan is PoP, but are they there currently?

Velious is live. They just enabled their "first" two Luclin zones (Paludal and Shadow Haven) on their Developer Test server that anyone can access to test bugs this week.

PoKnowledge is open (to facilitate easier travel for a smaller community).
Shar Vahl and Hollowshade are open (to allow Vah Shir Creation)
Nexus and Bazaar are open (because EC Tunnel is the devil)

Their current pace is about 1 expansion per year. Luclin and PoP may take a bit longer due to how in depth they are. On the flip side those are the ones we have the most log/data from to replicate. Outside of the really obscure stuff like alpha inner Acrylia Caverns, and the Fishlord event in PoWater.

[Ivory]

Dexterity is most important! SOOO important! Maximum important! 10/10 important!

Proc proc proc proc.

From 100 to 200 dex....it should be an 100% increase to proc rate.

[fadetree]

yeah. Dex good, and hard to raise without sacrificing other stuff.

[Jimjam]

yeah. Dex good, and hard to raise without sacrificing other stuff.

Easily maxed with buffs at later levels though.

[zanderklocke]

This statement invokes 14 years of pent up rage at the EQ warrior community circa GoD.

Anyhow, what era is TAKP currently in? I figure the plan is PoP, but are they there currently?

Hey Maurice.

[zanderklocke]

Velious is live. They just enabled their "first" two Luclin zones (Paludal and Shadow Haven) on their Developer Test server that anyone can access to test bugs this week.

PoKnowledge is open (to facilitate easier travel for a smaller community).
Shar Vahl and Hollowshade are open (to allow Vah Shir Creation)
Nexus and Bazaar are open (because EC Tunnel is the devil)

Their current pace is about 1 expansion per year. Luclin and PoP may take a bit longer due to how in depth they are. On the flip side those are the ones we have the most log/data from to replicate. Outside of the really obscure stuff like alpha inner Acrylia Caverns, and the Fishlord event in PoWater.

Server sounds fun and sort of laid back. My kind of thing.

How many characters can you box at once?

[Naethyn]

HP > STA (to cap) > Weapon Ratio > STR (to cap) > Aura of Battle > AC > MR > DR > PR > CHA > DEX > Rest

[Daldaen]

Server sounds fun and sort of laid back. My kind of thing.

How many characters can you box at once?

3 characters.

Technically you can flag one of your accounts as a "Trader account". Characters on this account can only be level 1 and travel in Nexus/Baz/PoK. Basically lets you run your main 3 boxes and still have a trader or mule up, but doesn't let you box 4 toons for actual content.