Pulling

[Kelor]

How has the sneak nerf effected pulling?

Is there any chance we will see other classes being able to pull? to the lvl a monk can i mean.

[Daldaen]

SKs with Death's Peace should be quite competent pullers with Snare and Disease Cloud to tag with.

[Baler]

*cough*
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265670
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265608

[Kesselring]

It's a bit harder because sneak tagging doesnt work. It wouldnt be that bad of a change if sneak tagging wasnt completely useless. In outdoor zones you are forced to harmony (like the kith dark elves). In indoor zones you need to do have one guy pull the mob in a train and another guy (preferably someone who can FD) to run up to the train and either melee wack the desired mob or use a clicky/spell to draw just the single mob out. Then that guy pulls it to camp and /q's or just stays FD for the fight just in case. Basically you just need to bring extra people instead of being able to do everything with a minimum force as far as smaller raid/group targets go. Kael for instance is impossible to sneak tag protectors of zek single after youve pulled them out because sneak tagging something while it has its back turned to you will pull everything around it regardless if the other mobs have their back turned.

[Lazie]

Shouldn't effect much at all as a Monk. Elder Beads or Stalker probes...Cast one..>FD....>Aggro Mobs with the eye..>run mobs around with eye a bit....>Let mobs kill eye...>Make sure all the mobs you aggro and ran around all have their backs to the monk...Stand with sneak....wait for one to turn toward the monk and start walking home...sneak+body aggro= Solo Mob as long as the rest of the pack isn't too close to it.

[dude]

well I haven't been to the moat in CoM since the (fix) we would make the monk pull the door when mobs got low. what an awesome thing to see, Ah good old days.

[Lazie]

Pulling is really easy and doesn't require much but a few cheap clickies. As a Monk with instant FD and the correct Clickies you are still the most preferred puller in the game. Farm a few root nets. 8 to 12 preferably.

1. Target the PH/Named you want to kill in a camp.
2. Spawn Eye and FD.
3. Train mobs with eye away from their spawn.
4. Stand and Root Net the PH/Named and then FD again.
5. Mobs reset. Solo PH/Named. Take a break till it spawns again.

Tagging out of trains is really only needed for raiding. Because training stuff around too far means you might train other groups.

[Sadiki]

Monks all over the server realized they only know how to pull via sneak exploits and quit the game or switched to alts.

[GuyNumber1]

Pulling is really easy and doesn't require much but a few cheap clickies. As a Monk with instant FD and the correct Clickies you are still the most preferred puller in the game. Farm a few root nets. 8 to 12 preferably.

1. Target the PH/Named you want to kill in a camp.
2. Spawn Eye and FD.
3. Train mobs with eye away from their spawn.
4. Stand and Root Net the PH/Named and then FD again.
5. Mobs reset. Solo PH/Named. Take a break till it spawns again.

Tagging out of trains is really only needed for raiding. Because training stuff around too far means you might train other groups.

Really easy LOL. Doesn't that eye have like 2 hp?

[Dreenk317]

Really easy LOL. Doesn't that eye have like 2 hp?

Yes it has about 1.3 hit points. But that doesn't matter, what matters is it will be level one, making its agro range huge, meaning you can bodypull from like 150 units away with it, and then start running. They won't hit you till you want them to if you know where they will be pathing from

[Maner]

Really easy LOL. Doesn't that eye have like 2 hp?

Obviously you're one of those monks who found pulling is too hard now and quit

[Rygar]

Seriously sad to see people claim monk pulling should revolve around elder beads. Git gud already! Beads are a luxury and a crutch. I never once saw them on live, so sad to see monks think they need them just as bad as torpor.

They definitely help and speed up the pulling in some raid situations but Christ already, people act like you need them to exp.

[Danth]

Considering that they didn't fix repeated feigns memblurring things at a decent rate, you do what you gotta do. If it means using holgresh beads, so be it. As an SK with a finite mana bar it usually means a lot of cursing the screen if I have to actually drop aggro on something.

Danth

[Dreenk317]

Seriously sad to see people claim monk pulling should revolve around elder beads. Git gud already! Beads are a luxury and a crutch. I never once saw them on live, so sad to see monks think they need them just as bad as torpor.

They definitely help and speed up the pulling in some raid situations but Christ already, people act like you need them to exp.

I agree, I don't remember seeing them used that often on live at all. Except in very unique situations. What I did see on live, all of the time, was javelins being expertly used by cutty teams of pullers. Don't get me wrong, my monk has beads and I love them. But there main benefit is being able to get agro on things and be out of sight to avoid casts. Or to agro mobs and train them away. Both can easily be done without beads. Take advantage of a javelins flight time at max range. And you can throw, strafe around the corner and be safe from casts all before the javelin hits. And for training things away, your a monk, hit it, run, flop.

[GuyNumber1]

Flop and retain aggro forever.. forgot that part.

[Swish]

So are rangers now the best outdoor zone pullers in EverQuest at this point in the timeline?....

[Sirken]

So are rangers now the best outdoor zone pullers in EverQuest at this point in the timeline?....

how could they not be?

[GuyNumber1]

They always have been bud

[Dreenk317]

Flop and retain aggro forever.. forgot that part.

I must be special. When I flop, and let them path back, they reset and I can stand up without agro... The only times this doesn't work is when one has reset, but the other has not, and I stand when they are in assist range of each other. In those instances I get agro.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "agro forever" but this is not the case for me.

Though I will attest to the fact that FD, currently, seems to have 0 chance at a memblur. It memblured a lot more often on live. Like every two flops and one of the mobs would memblur off is more what I recall. Since the patch changes I have had 2 mobs memblur on feign for me. Out of hundreds it seems.

[Swish]

how could they not be?

They always have been bud

Amazing how many will try to dodge pulling. If y'all don't like pulling, dont twink a ranger and expect a rogue to do it for you.

[EQBallzz]

Seriously sad to see people claim monk pulling should revolve around elder beads. Git gud already! Beads are a luxury and a crutch. I never once saw them on live, so sad to see monks think they need them just as bad as torpor.

They definitely help and speed up the pulling in some raid situations but Christ already, people act like you need them to exp.

This is sort of my issue with the sneak change. Many people saying sneak pulling was too "easy" but this change really only made pulling harder for those who can't afford beads and don't have uber gear that can help them withstand the extra damage from all the failed FD mem blurs. Don't beads trivialize pulling more than sneak did? At least with sneak you had to pull the mobs into position, get off a successful sneak and have some timing. Beads can be used from the relative safety of a FD position. Maybe that assessment is incorrect because I have never used them but I have seen them used. I'm also assuming bead prices are shooting up to 200k now after this change so they likely even more out of reach for many players (including myself).

All that being said I was able to split the spore king last night in Seb at level 55 using a combination of pathing and geometry to get him away from adds and a rogue to peel him off to group. It was my first time ever in that camp so I don't have an idea what it was like prior to the nerf but I can imagine it was a lot easier before considering how many adds there are (including lots of pathers). So monk splitting (without beads) is still viable but much trickier and more time consuming.

[Dreenk317]

So monk splitting (without beads) is still viable but much trickier and more time consuming.

It completely is. I think a major issue is people's lack of patience. The server is still used to the insta split that came with FD/sneak as it used to function. Everyone is "losing" exp (in there eyes)because they aren't able to pull as fast. Or they don't understand the ins and outs of the new mechanics and therefore get frustrated at what they think is a "bad puller".

[Lhancelot]

This is sort of my issue with the sneak change. Many people saying sneak pulling was too "easy" but this change really only made pulling harder for those who can't afford beads and don't have uber gear that can help them withstand the extra damage from all the failed FD mem blurs. Don't beads trivialize pulling more than sneak did? At least with sneak you had to pull the mobs into position, get off a successful sneak and have some timing. Beads can be used from the relative safety of a FD position. Maybe that assessment is incorrect because I have never used them but I have seen them used. I'm also assuming bead prices are shooting up to 200k now after this change so they likely even more out of reach for many players (including myself).

All that being said I was able to split the spore king last night in Seb at level 55 using a combination of pathing and geometry to get him away from adds and a rogue to peel him off to group. It was my first time ever in that camp so I don't have an idea what it was like prior to the nerf but I can imagine it was a lot easier before considering how many adds there are (including lots of pathers). So monk splitting (without beads) is still viable but much trickier and more time consuming.

^^^I agree with this. Nerf Holgresh Beads!

They are just another lame clicky item that have become a crutch for the lack of skill players obviously are afflicted by on p99.

How many exploits do we need to succeed on a 17 year old elfsim?

These beads are circumventing the very nerf to monk sneak pulling! The nerf is incomplete, admin needs to get on this asap imo.

[EQBallzz]

It completely is. I think a major issue is people's lack of patience. The server is still used to the insta split that came with FD/sneak as it used to function. Everyone is "losing" exp (in there eyes)because they aren't able to pull as fast. Or they don't understand the ins and outs of the new mechanics and therefore get frustrated at what they think is a "bad puller".

Agreed. I think it will take some time for people to adjust to a new mindset that monks aren't going to be able to always just pull/split as fast as before and also without any assistance. I think now it makes sense to utilize other classes to facilitate better/faster pulling. Split them solo where you can but you shouldn't be opposed to using lulls or a rogue to peel (or other techniques/classes) where appropriate.

I think this also emphasizes the break portion of a camp more and keeping it broken. It will be more time consuming to break some camps but once you do there is an incentive to keep it broken. Last night the King camp was really difficult until we got it broken then we were able to clear out all the shrooms eventually making the camp much, much easier. At one point we had to clear the jail to get someone to the group and this short delay meant we fell behind on shrooms..causing us to have to re-break camp again.

[awfal]

^^^I agree with this. Nerf Holgresh Beads!

They are just another lame clicky item that have become a crutch for the lack of skill players obviously are afflicted by on p99.

How many exploits do we need to succeed on a 17 year old elfsim?

These beads are circumventing the very nerf to monk sneak pulling! The nerf is incomplete, admin needs to get on this asap imo.

P99 Beads aren't currently classic.

On live they actually single pulled whatever mob killed your eyeball without any social aggro. You could literally send an eye into a pack of 10 mobs and solo pull 1 out.

[Ravager]

I used to group with a warrior that would face pull 8 mobs at a time and train them to camp and the enchanter would cc it all. Once the camp was split, it was easy-peasy. What do you need a monk for anyway?

[Lhancelot]

I used to group with a warrior that would face pull 8 mobs at a time and train them to camp and the enchanter would cc it all. Once the camp was split, it was easy-peasy. What do you need a monk for anyway?

My favorite thing is when you are in a group with an enchanter and the monk is intent on pulling mobs to the group single file when in actuality the group is quite capable of managing 5-8 mobs at one time. The entire group sits and waits while the monk performs his awesome pulling and splitting of mobs when it's totally not necessary. :p

[Brooks2728]

Shout out to EQBallzz (in game name: Thees (55 Monk)) who pulled King camp in Seb exceptionally well last night post sneak nerf / with no beads / while also being his first time at the camp!

-Ages

[EQBallzz]

I must be special. When I flop, and let them path back, they reset and I can stand up without agro... The only times this doesn't work is when one has reset, but the other has not, and I stand when they are in assist range of each other. In those instances I get agro.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "agro forever" but this is not the case for me.

Though I will attest to the fact that FD, currently, seems to have 0 chance at a memblur. It memblured a lot more often on live. Like every two flops and one of the mobs would memblur off is more what I recall. Since the patch changes I have had 2 mobs memblur on feign for me. Out of hundreds it seems.

FD is still mem blurring. I saw it work last night at Spore King camp but it seems to only rarely happen when you have 1 mob by itself or mobs split enough that a failure doesn't re-aggro the entire group. If you have a group of even 2-3 mobs it will almost certainly fail because you likely won't blur more than 1 so all will re-aggro if one fails.

I used to group with a warrior that would face pull 8 mobs at a time and train them to camp and the enchanter would cc it all. Once the camp was split, it was easy-peasy. What do you need a monk for anyway?

This is why I usually ask the chanter how many mobs they are comfortable CC'ing before I pull and will try to pull close to that amount of mobs if possible. Usually 2-3 mobs at a time works and you can start pulling again when on last mob.

Shout out to EQBallzz (in game name: Thees (55 Monk)) who pulled King camp in Seb exceptionally well last night post sneak nerf / with no beads / while also being his first time at the camp!

-Ages

Thanks man. That was fun. :)

[EQBallzz]

As a follow up to this thread I have some additional info to add. Based on in-game conversations it seems many are still confused as to what the sneak change actually did or didn't do. Some saying that sneak pulling still works some % of the time. I'm not sure where people are getting that info but I don't believe that is accurate.

I think people are confusing sneak pulling (sneak pulling mobs before aggro) with what actually did change (sneak no longer works to mem blur mobs you already aggro'd). If you haven't aggro'd mobs yet and pull a group from sneaking position..various things can happen..some of which will be similar to the way sneak pulling worked before depending on spacing, which direction mobs are facing, geometry/LOS, mob/player level etc..On the other hand if you pull mobs and FD..then sneaking with the expectation that it will clear your aggro when you stand..that no longer works. At all. Also, FD itself has a chance to mem blur (though I think it's too low on P99 compared to live) so some might be seeing that and thinking it's the sneak still working. I don't believe that is the case.

Did Juggs yesterday and was able to solo split all the Juggs using a combination of sneak pulling (rarely on initial pull) and spawn point resetting (after pull). Some of the interesting things I noticed however is that FD mem blur is definitely still working but it's very unreliable. Mobs returning to spawn point usually mem blurs but this is also somewhat spotty.

When splitting the 6 Juggs + Tolapumj in Trak's lair I witnessed numerous times where I would pull and mobs that reset would re-aggro and other times after FD a mob would not re-aggro that wasn't reset yet (FD mem blur). I even had a single Jugg split from group and the rest all reset but when I stood up and the Jugg near me didn't re-aggro but all the mobs at spawn point did re-aggro. I think this is broken and shouldn't be happening. Mobs that returned to spawn point (and are far enough away from you) should *not* re-aggro and mobs should be mem-blurring from FD at a higher rate such that when you have 2-3+ mobs aggro'd you actually have a chance to mem-blur them.

So to recap:

Sneak pulling before aggro: still sorta works depending on numerous factors (spacing, which direction mobs are facing, geometry/LOS, mob/player level etc).
Sneak pulling after aggro: no longer works to clear aggro from a FD position (no mem blur).
FD mem blur: works but is far too low of a chance making it impossible to rely on unless you have a single mob that is outside of social aggro range of others but that makes it pointless for splitting because it's already solo at that point.
Social aggro: radius of aggro has increased after change making all of the above more difficult.
Lazy aggro: seems to be working as intended and not really that relevant to the sneak pulling aspect other than the obvious..sneak won't remove you from hate list.

If anyone else has any info about their experiences with this that could be helpful. I hope the broken nature of aggro in it's current form is being looked at and will be fixed sooner rather than later. Pulling is quite a PITA atm and while I appreciate the added challenge there seems to be broken mechanics making it harder than it should be.

[Ikon]

As a follow up to this thread I have some additional info to add. Based on in-game conversations it seems many are still confused as to what the sneak change actually did or didn't do. Some saying that sneak pulling still works some % of the time. I'm not sure where people are getting that info but I don't believe that is accurate.

I think people are confusing sneak pulling (sneak pulling mobs before aggro) with what actually did change (sneak no longer works to mem blur mobs you already aggro'd). If you haven't aggro'd mobs yet and pull a group from sneaking position..various things can happen..some of which will be similar to the way sneak pulling worked before depending on spacing, which direction mobs are facing, geometry/LOS, mob/player level etc..On the other hand if you pull mobs and FD..then sneaking with the expectation that it will clear your aggro when you stand..that no longer works. At all. Also, FD itself has a chance to mem blur (though I think it's too low on P99 compared to live) so some might be seeing that and thinking it's the sneak still working. I don't believe that is the case.

Did Juggs yesterday and was able to solo split all the Juggs using a combination of sneak pulling (rarely on initial pull) and spawn point resetting (after pull). Some of the interesting things I noticed however is that FD mem blur is definitely still working but it's very unreliable. Mobs returning to spawn point usually mem blurs but this is also somewhat spotty.

When splitting the 6 Juggs + Tolapumj in Trak's lair I witnessed numerous times where I would pull and mobs that reset would re-aggro and other times after FD a mob would not re-aggro that wasn't reset yet (FD mem blur). I even had a single Jugg split from group and the rest all reset but when I stood up and the Jugg near me didn't re-aggro but all the mobs at spawn point did re-aggro. I think this is broken and shouldn't be happening. Mobs that returned to spawn point (and are far enough away from you) should *not* re-aggro and mobs should be mem-blurring from FD at a higher rate such that when you have 2-3+ mobs aggro'd you actually have a chance to mem-blur them.

So to recap:

Sneak pulling before aggro: still sorta works depending on numerous factors (spacing, which direction mobs are facing, geometry/LOS, mob/player level etc).
Sneak pulling after aggro: no longer works to clear aggro from a FD position (no mem blur).
FD mem blur: works but is far too low of a chance making it impossible to rely on unless you have a single mob that is outside of social aggro range of others but that makes it pointless for splitting because it's already solo at that point.
Social aggro: radius of aggro has increased after change making all of the above more difficult.
Lazy aggro: seems to be working as intended and not really that relevant to the sneak pulling aspect other than the obvious..sneak won't remove you from hate list.

If anyone else has any info about their experiences with this that could be helpful. I hope the broken nature of aggro in it's current form is being looked at and will be fixed sooner rather than later. Pulling is quite a PITA atm and while I appreciate the added challenge there seems to be broken mechanics making it harder than it should be.
FD blur was not very reliable, especially on higher level mobs / raid mobs.

It was very common for /q to clear aggro which is why we would have a 2 monks or monk tagger.

Monk would pull FD flop around till tagger could range pull a single or two or 3. Monk would /q or stay down entire fight. Then pop up get reaggroed repeat.

Mobs should reset on return to spawn but a few didn't. Gating mobs return to spawn but don't reset. Don't know the mechanics though maybe gate location is not at spawn point? Think it is but not 100

[EQBallzz]

FD blur was not very reliable, especially on higher level mobs / raid mobs.

It was very common for /q to clear aggro which is why we would have a 2 monks or monk tagger.

Monk would pull FD flop around till tagger could range pull a single or two or 3. Monk would /q or stay down entire fight. Then pop up get reaggroed repeat.

Mobs should reset on return to spawn but a few didn't. Gating mobs return to spawn but don't reset. Don't know the mechanics though maybe gate location is not at spawn point? Think it is but not 100

I do remember having to /q at times. My memory of that was that it was usually due to multiple roamers or roamers near other mobs that would keep getting hate passed to them in a snowball effect that could only be fixed in a reasonable amount of time with /q.

I'm sure there were other scenarios but that's the main one I remember. It wasn't super reliable but you could repeatedly flop and eventually blur a small group of mobs. I think the more you flopped without taking dmg the higher the chance to blur? You could also reliably use spawn point to blur. It seems to not be working like that on P99. My memory could be somewhat off though. It was a long time ago.

[derpcake]

P99 Beads aren't currently classic.

On live they actually single pulled whatever mob killed your eyeball without any social aggro. You could literally send an eye into a pack of 10 mobs and solo pull 1 out.

same thing as pet pulling basically

[Rygar]

This weekend I was duoing in Fear and splitting was extremely tough. The mobs have a huge agro radius it seems and since it is an outdoor zone, they just run through walls and don't get stuck / path around objects.

Basically, my advice is if you can't split them after your first or 2nd FD, just let them reset and try again. After that, the mobs seem to always walk together back to spawn and are impossible to separate. On initial pull you may get a mob to 'wait around' while another paths back out of range.

Another inconvenience was the lazy agro. On some bad pulls I would wait 3-4 minutes and mobs would be halfway across zone. I would stand and 30-40 secs later I'd see a train running in the distance towards me.

I know lazy agro is 'supposed' to only be Kunark and Velious, but it is definitely active in the Hole (which is located in old world, but released during Kunark). So the Hole has lazy agro but Plane of Fear doesn't? Doesn't seem right, anyone else notice lazy aggro in old world zones?

[fastboy21]

I know lazy agro is 'supposed' to only be Kunark and Velious,

Who told you this?

[Ikon]

This weekend I was duoing in Fear and splitting was extremely tough. The mobs have a huge agro radius it seems and since it is an outdoor zone, they just run through walls and don't get stuck / path around objects.

Basically, my advice is if you can't split them after your first or 2nd FD, just let them reset and try again. After that, the mobs seem to always walk together back to spawn and are impossible to separate. On initial pull you may get a mob to 'wait around' while another paths back out of range.

Another inconvenience was the lazy agro. On some bad pulls I would wait 3-4 minutes and mobs would be halfway across zone. I would stand and 30-40 secs later I'd see a train running in the distance towards me.

I know lazy agro is 'supposed' to only be Kunark and Velious, but it is definitely active in the Hole (which is located in old world, but released during Kunark). So the Hole has lazy agro but Plane of Fear doesn't? Doesn't seem right, anyone else notice lazy aggro in old world zones?
Fear is vanilla EQ, it was added after launch but before Kunark. It makes sense that it doesn't have lazy aggro.

In regards to splitting spawns without the old memblur you split with two prople . Monk repeatly flops around till one or two can be ranged pulled by tagger. Monk stays FD. After they're killed pop up and repeat. The old days of monk single pulling and joining fight was not classic.

[EQBallzz]

Fear is vanilla EQ, it was added after launch but before Kunark. It makes sense that it doesn't have lazy aggro.

In regards to splitting spawns without the old memblur you split with two prople . Monk repeatly flops around till one or two can be ranged pulled by tagger. Monk stays FD. After they're killed pop up and repeat. The old days of monk single pulling and joining fight was not classic.

It's still possible if you can split with spawn point mem blur. It may not always be practical (and doesn't always work now) but can be done. Repeatedly did this with the Juggs without using a peeler. It can also still work if you get a FD mem blur but again this is mostly unreliable unless mob you are trying to drop aggro from is separated from other mobs. All that being said having someone to peel at the right time is advisable in most situations now I think.