Spawn Varience

[Tiggles]

will it ever be removed? I know why its there of course but I never had much of an experience with cry baby camp fighting on live as I played on a pvp server.

With Kunark and a slew of raid targets being introduced would a spawn variance still be required. Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Kunark introduce a type of spawn variance for the outdoor dragons?

On blue servers in live how did raids compete over spawns that had a set timer? I know not all had rotations so what was the normal procedure surely a gm was not involved every time?

[azeth]

On blue servers in live how did raids compete over spawns that had a set timer? I know not all had rotations so what was the normal procedure surely a gm was not involved every time?

on rodcet nife it was FTE, period. Every guild, even the "carebear" ones willingly leapfrogged etc. The only GM intervention came due to legit KSing and training.

[moklianne]

on rodcet nife it was FTE, period. Every guild, even the "carebear" ones willingly leapfrogged etc. The only GM intervention came due to legit KSing and training.

This is how it was on every server I played on.

[guineapig]

will it ever be removed? I know why its there of course but I never had much of an experience with cry baby camp fighting on live as I played on a pvp server.

With Kunark and a slew of raid targets being introduced would a spawn variance still be required. Also correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Kunark introduce a type of spawn variance for the outdoor dragons?

On blue servers in live how did raids compete over spawns that had a set timer? I know not all had rotations so what was the normal procedure surely a gm was not involved every time?


I do not disagree with you (but recount the number of raid targets that will actuallybe available at Kunark launch).

[hedbonker]

The old Torv server had a reservation system that lasted a long time. Then it just became FTE.

[Myrkskog]

Wasn't the spawn variance put in to discourage the poopsockers from sitting somewhere for 48 hours? That didn't stop them, so might as well remove it. At least when other guilds know exactly when a boss will spawn, they can participate in the clusterfuck and petition fest that will ensue.

[Nizzarr]

yea lets remove variance so we can have 200+ person on every spawn point ready to killsteal. I'm sure the GMs will love this.

[Rogean]

yea lets remove variance so we can have 200+ person on every spawn point ready to killsteal. I'm sure the GMs will love this.

[Harrison]

yea lets remove variance so we can have 200+ person on every spawn point ready to killsteal. I'm sure the GMs will love this.


Thirded, and ratified.

[Omnimorph]

200+ people on a spawn point, mob spawns, 20 people claim to engage it first, no one knows who did, so all 200+ people blast the mob to kingdom come, and then a gm has to deal with 90 petitions claiming KS...

GM get's pissed and just despawns the corpse and boots all the guilds to log in.

[Cars]

Yeah I think people that complain about variance either are not raiding, can't sympathize with the GM's workload or haven't been on the server long enough to really understand what it accomplishes.

[maegi]

bah just remove the rule, make it all FFA whoever does the most damage the fastest fucking wins

[azeth]

bah just remove the rule, make it all FFA whoever does the most damage the fastest fucking wins

to an extent i agree :p

[Lazortag]

I'm not sure why people act like removing the spawn variance would be the end of the world. No variance ever existed on live in classic and things turned out fine. Without the variance most raid mobs would respawn at roughly the same time, so it's kind of silly to say that people would just plant 200 people on a spawn point, because then someone would get all of the other raid bosses.

yea lets remove variance so we can have 200+ person on every spawn point ready to killsteal. I'm sure the GMs will love this.

How is this more likely without the variance? People can do this now if they want to with whatever mobs have been in window the longest. The only difference is that there's marginally more uncertainty.

I think lots of people are tired of sitting at their computers for 20 hours hitting "track" over and over again.

[Harrison]

Live wasn't this top heavy.

You didn't level as fast in Live.

No one knew wtf they were doing in Live.

[Nuggie]

^^

[Nedala]

That one noble spawn where like 150-200(?) players were sitting on noble spawn trying to get aggro first when he pops, was a good example what would happen if the variance was removed.

[Lazortag]

That one noble spawn where like 150-200(?) players were sitting on noble spawn trying to get aggro first when he pops, was a good example what would happen if the variance was removed.

No, that's what would happen if bosses were FTE. FTE is not the same as having no variance, I'm not sure why people seem to think that's what this thread is about. And it doesn't happen that often with noble even though he's the only boss without variance (edit: and it never happens now since he's poopsockable, not that that's a good thing). If no bosses had variance, a lot of the time multiple bosses would spawn at once (which is impossible without the variance), which would probably mitigate the harms you're talking about. I just don't think it would be as bad as people say it would be. If we got rid of the variance for a few weeks just to see what would happen, it wouldn't be the end of the world, we could always reverse it if everything that was said in this thread was true.

[Droxx]

Since nobody else did it:
*Variance

[baub]

bah just remove the rule, make it all FFA whoever does the most damage the fastest fucking wins

Haha yes, I remember vividly on TP each guild making KS groups. We eventually "grew up" and started letting /duels settle the dispute. GMs were nowhere to be seen on that server.

[Mcbard]

Live wasn't this top heavy.

You didn't level as fast in Live.

No one knew wtf they were doing in Live.

This is truth. While I don't like the idea of spawn variance, you can't really compare this server to live because there were only so many guilds that could and would even attempt certain encounters in every expansion.

My opinion though, is that I wish variance was gone. I don't even mind 200 people sitting near a mobs spawn point spamming aes trying to be the first to agro, just so long as if people KS/train the others the GMS handle it. Pretty sure my opinion on the matter is a moot point however, as the extra work it creates for gms is my guess as to why the variance exists in the first place. The server is just too damn top heavy.. hopefully vp keys and good old fashioned cockblocking by certain guilds taking the time to lock other guilds out of the higher end raid zones in kunark/velious fix the problem altogether. I really hope 1 or 2 guilds have access to trak and keep him locked down.. the others will either come to a point where they step up their game or realize they don't belong in vp anyway.

[Icecometus]

No one has listed all these new raid targets we get with Kunark? If the outdoor dragons are not in at launch you've got: Trak, VS and Faydedar or one Big Boss and 2 minor bosses. Am I wrong?

Group content is the heart of Kunark and will hopefully keep everyone busy and not Poopsocking as much.

[Omnimorph]

Group content is the heart of Kunark and will hopefully keep everyone busy and not Poopsocking as much.

Naive young grasshopper. There'll be people taking weeks off work to power to 60, locking down sebilis camps, and then poopsocking bosses.

You also forgot to mention chardok royals.

Lazortag - No variance would be worse than having the variance. Also, what would be your suggestion as opposed FTE? whoever gets the ks?

[Thetruth]

This is truth. While I don't like the idea of spawn variance, you can't really compare this server to live because there were only so many guilds that could and would even attempt certain encounters in every expansion.

My opinion though, is that I wish variance was gone. I don't even mind 200 people sitting near a mobs spawn point spamming aes trying to be the first to agro, just so long as if people KS/train the others the GMS handle it. Pretty sure my opinion on the matter is a moot point however, as the extra work it creates for gms is my guess as to why the variance exists in the first place. The server is just too damn top heavy.. hopefully vp keys and good old fashioned cockblocking by certain guilds taking the time to lock other guilds out of the higher end raid zones in kunark/velious fix the problem altogether. I really hope 1 or 2 guilds have access to trak and keep him locked down.. the others will either come to a point where they step up their game or realize they don't belong in vp anyway.

The truth says,

It is not THE TRUTH!

[Thetruth]

on rodcet nife it was FTE, period. Every guild, even the "carebear" ones willingly leapfrogged etc. The only GM intervention came due to legit KSing and training.

The truth says,

You and your wife are one of the better looking couples on this game.

[Icecometus]

Naive young grasshopper. There'll be people taking weeks off work to power to 60, locking down sebilis camps, and then poopsocking bosses.

You also forgot to mention chardok royals.



I said as much, you are correcto of course tho. I did forget to mention the Royals :)

[Messianic]

lol tags

[Lazortag]

Lazortag - No variance would be worse than having the variance. Also, what would be your suggestion as opposed FTE? whoever gets the ks?

Whoever clears to the boss first and engages first gets it, but if the boss hasn't spawned yet, then the first to 15 rules would apply. Again, I don't think camping raid spawns is a good thing at all, I'm not even sure if it's better or worse than FTE, but let's just get things straight: no variance doesn't mean "everything is FTE". The same rules as normal would apply.

Noble is an example of a boss without variance that can be camped. This was clarified a few weeks ago. Again, I'm not saying this is good, bad, better, worse, etc. than FTE. I'm just saying that FTE has pretty much nothing to do with the suggestion in this thread.

Also I'd like someone to respond to what I said earlier about simultaneous repops. No variance means that bosses will inevitably have to respawn at the same time (and then roughly the same time for the weeks after), making stupid strategies like poopsocking pretty much impossible unless you want to guarantee yourself only one boss.

edit: oh, also, variance isn't classic.

[Mise]

Remove variance. Get the tops guild to stop acting like children when most of the server is in their 30s-40s. Set up a rotation.

[Wotsirb401]

I didnt really raid in Classic until after Kunark came out, not that I remember anyway, but on Povar, we just had top Guild leaders discuss who was wanting to raid what, Semi-rotation set up. Other Factors were, the raid support that was online and willing to raid, as well as capable classes to raid, IE: Enough Tanks/Healers etc.

[Krimsin]

Turn on PvP.

May the best guild win.

[Bigcountry23]

http://www.gucomics.com/comics/2001/gu_20010326.jpg

[Shiftin]

Whoever clears to the boss first and engages first gets it, but if the boss hasn't spawned yet, then the first to 15 rules would apply. Again, I don't think camping raid spawns is a good thing at all, I'm not even sure if it's better or worse than FTE, but let's just get things straight: no variance doesn't mean "everything is FTE". The same rules as normal would apply.

Noble is an example of a boss without variance that can be camped. This was clarified a few weeks ago. Again, I'm not saying this is good, bad, better, worse, etc. than FTE. I'm just saying that FTE has pretty much nothing to do with the suggestion in this thread.


Sooooo you want it to be pretty much exactly like it is now, except remove the variance and force people to go back to actually sitting at their computers poopsocking? Do YOU want to sit in naggy's lair for 24 hours having to repond to challenges about your AFK status at a moment's notice? Because I'd way prefer to help my guild track a few nights a week and, you know, hang out with my family some.

I actually like the thought of all the mobs respawning at the same time, as long as that trigger for repops has an element of variance. That is 2-3 less days a week we have to burn people out wearing out their track hotkeys. (Yes, we actually track for mobs, with actual druids and rangers, 24/7 when mobs are due to spawn. No, we don't know when things will spawn no matter what nonsense you've read in R&F.)

Remove variance. Get the tops guild to stop acting like children when most of the server is in their 30s-40s. Set up a rotation.

I <3 when people say this. Please explain 1. What incentive the guilds currently getting the bosses have to voluntarily give them away, 2. Why the GMs care / would waste their time trying to enforce this and 3. How this is classic.

[Omnimorph]

Whoever clears to the boss first and engages first gets it, but if the boss hasn't spawned yet, then the first to 15 rules would apply. Again, I don't think camping raid spawns is a good thing at all, I'm not even sure if it's better or worse than FTE, but let's just get things straight: no variance doesn't mean "everything is FTE". The same rules as normal would apply.

Noble is an example of a boss without variance that can be camped. This was clarified a few weeks ago. Again, I'm not saying this is good, bad, better, worse, etc. than FTE. I'm just saying that FTE has pretty much nothing to do with the suggestion in this thread.

Also I'd like someone to respond to what I said earlier about simultaneous repops. No variance means that bosses will inevitably have to respawn at the same time (and then roughly the same time for the weeks after), making stupid strategies like poopsocking pretty much impossible unless you want to guarantee yourself only one boss.

edit: oh, also, variance isn't classic.

Isn't that how it was? and you did have people camping spawns pretty much the same as now. Fact is with any sort of recognised spawn time you're going to have guilds sitting at the spawn point, or camping a character there.

What you have now is trackers in the zones where the windows are due, and when the windows wind down to a space of like 20-30 hrs, you have people showing up in the zone to be there for when it spawns since they're not doing anything and will be heading there when it spawns anyway. So most of the time you don't have people camping the spawn thanks to the variance. This is why it was introduced and for the most part does it effectively. If you had no variance then you'd have people ALWAYS waiting for the boss, even if other bosses were due, they'd prioritise the one they want and be there.

As for the non-variance with the simultaneous (or almost simultaneous) spawning, you'd be taking all the boss mobs over the week and forcing them into a day. Which imho would be worse than what we have now.

[Kassel]

I dont see how removing variance will change anything. Guilds will just line up (15 ppl camping) earlier and earlier. Poopsocking will increase because people will know exactly how long they have to sock to get a win. WRT to a rotation, on my server there was one during classic it was only ever player enforced, the main problem was when a new guild or alliance wanted to get in on the fun and further diluted the available mobs. The rotation was only ever Classic mobs/planes and fizzled out near the end of Kunark.

[redghosthunter]

Turn on PvP.

May the best guild win.

Hehe, Pvp really does solve it. But not a option. /sigh

[Lazortag]

As for the non-variance with the simultaneous (or almost simultaneous) spawning, you'd be taking all the boss mobs over the week and forcing them into a day. Which imho would be worse than what we have now.

..why would that be worse? That's frequently how it was on Live. A wise man once said, "it's classic".

At some point all raid mobs would have to pop at once (like after server restarts), so every seven days after that, they'd pop at roughly the same time, assuming they were killed at roughly the same time. I'm not talking about forced simultaneous respawning, in case anyone misunderstood. It wouldn't need to be forced.

Every single response to the effect of "now everyone will just poopsock more!" needs to take into account the fact I mentioned above, and that I've mentioned in all of my posts in this thread. I still haven't seen an adequate response yet.

Sooooo you want it to be pretty much exactly like it is now, except remove the variance and force people to go back to actually sitting at their computers poopsocking? Do YOU want to sit in naggy's lair for 24 hours having to repond to challenges about your AFK status at a moment's notice? Because I'd way prefer to help my guild track a few nights a week and, you know, hang out with my family some.

See above. Go ahead and poopsock naggy, but you'll lose other bosses that are popping roughly the same time. Or, if you're quick enough, you might get all of them, who knows. Poopsocking will give an advantage no matter what system you introduce; that advantage is mitigated a lot more when there's no spawn variance.

Also, just a note: no one's ever "forced" to poopsock, even if another guild does it. Hopefully this would make guilds more willing to work out deals on certain bosses, but I don't know enough to really comment on that.

Guilds will just line up (15 ppl camping) earlier and earlier. Poopsocking will increase because people will know exactly how long they have to sock to get a win.

...see above.

(Yes, we actually track for mobs, with actual druids and rangers, 24/7 when mobs are due to spawn. No, we don't know when things will spawn no matter what nonsense you've read in R&F.)

I never said anything like this, so please get any thoughts out of your head that I'm just bitter at DA and IB's haxor skills. I thought we were being pretty civil in this thread, I'd like to keep it that way.

[Starklen]

Any system you invent that doesn't overtly force sharing is always going to have the same result, with a different way of getting there. Under the old rules, virtually all of the loot went to two guilds. Under the new rules, pretty much the same. When there was a full server repop, same thing again. This will never change until the quantity of targets increases to the point that even the slowest and least organized guilds can clear to, and kill a boss, before another guild can kill its choice target(s) and come back to it.

[Mcbard]

Isn't that how it was? and you did have people camping spawns pretty much the same as now. Fact is with any sort of recognised spawn time you're going to have guilds sitting at the spawn point, or camping a character there.

What you have now is trackers in the zones where the windows are due, and when the windows wind down to a space of like 20-30 hrs, you have people showing up in the zone to be there for when it spawns since they're not doing anything and will be heading there when it spawns anyway. So most of the time you don't have people camping the spawn thanks to the variance. This is why it was introduced and for the most part does it effectively. If you had no variance then you'd have people ALWAYS waiting for the boss, even if other bosses were due, they'd prioritise the one they want and be there.

As for the non-variance with the simultaneous (or almost simultaneous) spawning, you'd be taking all the boss mobs over the week and forcing them into a day. Which imho would be worse than what we have now.

Hmm fwiw I don't think that people should be allowed to "camp" Naggy or any named raid mob like that. I mean they can sit there sure, but imo the guild that zones in 20 minutes before he pops and buffs up should have just as much a shot at the boss as anyone else. What this means is that instead of "poopsocking" if the variance was gone, guilds would basically be competing for agro when the mob popped, meaning as long as they zone in and have a presence before it spawns they will have just as equal a shot at engaging the mob as anyone else and there won't be any fighting over a "Nagafen camp" or "Innoruuk camp" because those shouldnt be "campable".


Also, lulz at people camping DA idols: http://img26.imageshack.us/i/eq000107.jpg/

[Mise]

I <3 when people say this. Please explain 1. What incentive the guilds currently getting the bosses have to voluntarily give them away, 2. Why the GMs care / would waste their time trying to enforce this and 3. How this is classic.

1. The incentive is not having to poopsock. Setting a definite time to raid that doesn't involve logging in bleary eyed at 3am to down a raid target takes some pressure off the players, and you'll probably have less burnouts. Yes, the two guilds that are getting everything right now would have to give some of that up.

2. It would not be in any way GM enforced, so the GMs don't have to care. All the guilds that are capable of downing bosses would have to sign up for a raid calendar. Any guild that hijacks something would then be blacklisted by the entire raiding community.

3. We worked out a rotation just fine in classic on my server.

I'm not saying it's not a huge mountain to climb, with all the animosity between guilds and grown men acting like children, but it would certainly be the ideal to work toward a rotation.

Obviously this topic has been beaten to death on these forums, and by the looks of things it'll probably never happen. If the variance were removed though, I think a rotation would become more of a possibility once people realize how stupid it is to sit on a spawn with 200 other people and 4-5 guilds waiting to get the first engage.

[Shiftin]

1. The incentive is not having to poopsock. Setting a definite time to raid that doesn't involve logging in bleary eyed at 3am to down a raid target takes some pressure off the players, and you'll probably have less burnouts. Yes, the two guilds that are getting everything right now would have to give some of that up.

2. It would not be in any way GM enforced, so the GMs don't have to care. All the guilds that are capable of downing bosses would have to sign up for a raid calendar. Any guild that hijacks something would then be blacklisted by the entire raiding community.

3. We worked out a rotation just fine in classic on my server.

I'm not saying it's not a huge mountain to climb, with all the animosity between guilds and grown men acting like children, but it would certainly be the ideal to work toward a rotation.

Obviously this topic has been beaten to death on these forums, and by the looks of things it'll probably never happen. If the variance were removed though, I think a rotation would become more of a possibility once people realize how stupid it is to sit on a spawn with 200 other people and 4-5 guilds waiting to get the first engage.

You understand we don't poopsock, right? I don't mean that in an insulting way, I've just noticed a lot of people misusing that word, and it's not something that happens on a regular basis at this point (at least by us).

[Mise]

You understand we don't poopsock, right? I don't mean that in an insulting way, I've just noticed a lot of people misusing that word, and it's not something that happens on a regular basis at this point (at least by us).

I understand that you don't sit on spawns with a full raid buffed and ready to go for hours on end waiting for bosses in window, what would be considered an extreme case of "poopsocking".

I don't think I'm misusing the made up word, because at the very least the trackers are gonna be poopsocking it up. I'll concede that it doesn't really extend the term to the rest of the guild, who are sleeping peacefully with their characters buffed and logged out by the spawn waiting for the batphone to ring.

[Omnimorph]

I understand that you don't sit on spawns with a full raid buffed and ready to go for hours on end waiting for bosses in window, what would be considered an extreme case of "poopsocking".

I don't think I'm misusing the made up word, because at the very least the trackers are gonna be poopsocking it up. I'll concede that it doesn't really extend the term to the rest of the guild, who are sleeping peacefully with their characters buffed and logged out by the spawn waiting for the batphone to ring.

Most trackers will be there for a few hours, then someone else will log them on or use a diff tracker.

Some people do camp their characters out at spawn points or near them when a boss is near the end of their window, but the vast majority of the time it's just down to pure mobilisation. Just too many people buy into the propaganda of RnF where everyone has a level 50 camped at every boss, waiting to log them in.

[Lazortag]

Why are people still talking about FTE? Can someone explain why getting rid of variance automatically means FTE? And can someone tell me how any of this is relevant when this system would force mobs to be spawned all roughly at the same time? There must be something I really don't understand about the variance because people seem to have very different assumptions about it than me, so could someone explain this better?

[Omnimorph]

Why are people still talking about FTE? Can someone explain why getting rid of variance automatically means FTE? And can someone tell me how any of this is relevant when this system would force mobs to be spawned all roughly at the same time? There must be something I really don't understand about the variance because people seem to have very different assumptions about it than me, so could someone explain this better?

Fine, i assume if it wasn't FTE then it'd be first with 15 in the zone. Which sucked and had people afk online just to make up the numbers whilst poopsocking. Then you'd have 1 or 2 guilds kill their boss, and rush to the next boss, call 30 mins on the other guild and then try and kill that.

People would poopsock the boss of their choice and it'd be the same old shit that was going on before. As things stand now, there isn't as much poopsocking going on as there was, so in a way the variance is working.

The way things are now, a lot still relies on a guild being the first to track a mob, and mobilise to it. That's how it was in classic to a degree.

[Hobby]

It will either be FTE, FFA, or first 15 in a zone...

All options suck for the staff....because no matter WHAT it is, we'll be constantly called to come and mediate the loot.


But atleast FTE causes the least amount of headaches.

[Mcbard]

But atleast FTE causes the least amount of headaches.

From a player standpoint it makes not having to camp out ahead of time at mob spawns or "poop-sock" disappear as well. You can show up before the mob is due, and then you either get or you don't.