What is the hardest dungeon in the game?

[Vexenu]

Factor in the requirement of using level-appropriate gear.

Some of the lower-mid level dungeons are absolute deathtraps, which is why no one uses them. Examples:

Splitpaw Lair
Dalnir
Runnyeye
Droga
Cazic Thule

I would argue that these are actually some of the most challenging dungeons in the game when adjusted for level and gear. I still remember a particularly amazing/disastrous group I once had in Runnyeye that culminated in a fight to the death with a huge train of goblins, in which four group members were slain and two barely survived. Probably the most intense and memorable battle I've had in EQ. And in Runnyeye, of all places.

Anyway, the question stands: what do you think is the hardest dungeon in the game when adjusting for level and gear?

[mcoy]

I'd argue CT here - the agro through walls kills most classic camps.

[Jimjam]

Qeynos Sewers, if for no other reason than the smell. Fairly good loot though if you remember to bring your clothes peg.

[Twochain]

Tower of Frozen Shadow floor 2

It's not even close.

[Maner]

Sirens grotto is pretty stupid since we have the balls out version and not the nerfed one.

[mcoy]

I'd argue CT here - the agro through walls kills most classic camps.

I meant the healing through walls, but I'm sure most understood.

[Evia]

There has only been one dungeon that I've wiped in more times than I had a successful run. That's the crypt of dalnir so that has my vote.

[branamil]

Sirens grotto is pretty stupid since we have the balls out version and not the nerfed one.

My vote for hardest dungeon adjusted for level even.

I bet some of the areas have never been cleared since it's been available.

The main temple area is ludicrous.. a dozen mobs within aggro range of eachother, unmezzable... with two icy servants that proc a 500 damage dispel AoE..

[mickmoranis]

This is tough to answer because of the opinion factor, but..

I think solB, level and gear apropriate is far more difficult than anything listed, the HPs are a jump up from Mistmoore, see invis everywhere is HUGELY DIFFICULT for new players that havent been playing this game for so long, and well, yeah, pull 1 mob at the king wrong and you're fighting 30

cazic thule is challanging cus youre fighting greens one minuet then reds the next, but its really not that difficult... altho in classic I never really knew anyone that could figure out how to camp shit in that orb room so maybe ur right?

[skarlorn]

Kaesora should be on that list.

Runny eye is a lot less dangerous since the revamp. Way fewer crazy pathing mobs and see invisible shamans.

[mickmoranis]

kaesora is a v difficult dungeon I agree.

Runneye always seemed overcrowded to me, so I couldnt think of it as a difficult dungeon.

Though I never made it down to the little gobby town till p99 so maybe it is, idk


Lguk i think is one of the easier dungeons in the game, but simultaneously the most well designed dungeon in the game.

Like you can really fuck up down there, and mobs like arch magis and lord and frenzied are v difficult for players of appropriate gear. However the rest of the zone has safe spots, and safe halls, ample camps and camp areas and so on and so forth.

I mean hell, when I first went to Lguk, i thought holy shit hthis is like a secret player made city! it was so crowded. You could walk around down there as a level 1 the zone was so empty. I would say, "if only those newbie naked trolls in the swamp knew what kind of magical magic was below their feet, they would be blown away"

[Zemus]

Dalnir level adjusted. I would bet many have never even been there.

[Caiu]

TOFS for level appropriate questing is about the only zone that has frustrated me.

[bestovv]

I don't think I've ever been in a HS group that didn't wipe at some point.


Least safe zone-in of any dungeon?
Need new keys to retrieve corpses if full wipe.
Many enemies here see invis and even sneak hide (the latter being very rare anywhere in the game)
Carpet pits.
Fuck.

[bestovv]

Paw is stupid hard, but most of that difficulty comes from shitty, shitty pathing, so I don't know if that counts. It doesn't seem intentionally that hard.

[mickmoranis]

I don't think I've ever been in a HS group that didn't wipe at some point.

lol this is true despite a few peoples sickness farming in there but in classic no way

[mickmoranis]

In classic it was rare on rallos zek that anyone ever went inside the mistmoore castle, idk if that was the way it was on other servers but as soon as you set foot in there everyone around you was dead.

[bestovv]

In velious/luclin maybe pop era I remember a patch that fixed monsters getting stuck and exploited which essentially allowed them to walk through all walls/geometry. Prior to the patch people I knew would for instance kill mammoths in everfrost on this platform where the mammoth would get stuck on the geometry and never get to the player. It could be freely dotted and nuked without being rooted/snared/anything.

[Jimjam]

I always thought it was dumb that finding a position that a mob was unable to climb to was considered an exploit. Just seems like tactics.

They should have just added like a memblur, fear or something AI to make it less practical. Having a mammoth super jump or warp through walls is more immersion breaking than having it stamp about confused or run away to safety.

[Sonark]

Dalnir level adjusted. I would bet many have never even been there.One of the worst (best?) parts about Dalnir is the fact that the only way out is to go deeper in, after a point, and that the Kly and Kly Overseer both have a 700 DD ice nuke waiting for you right in front of the zone out.

But aside from Kurn's, I have the most memories there.

[Pyrocat]

Cazic Thule because of cleric mobs healing whatever you're killing through walls, lots of pathers, easy to get adds.
Kaesora because of one way drops, cleric and necro mobs, pathers.
Siren's Grotto because enchanter and cleric mobs, everything hits like a dragon, you need to dispell and slow everything, underwater, 3d .etc

[Sonark]

I always thought it was dumb that finding a position that a mob was unable to climb to was considered an exploit. Just seems like tactics.

They should have just added like a memblur, fear or something AI to make it less practical. Having a mammoth super jump or warp through walls is more immersion breaking than having it stamp about confused or run away to safety.I don't think the game with elves, dwarves, lizard people, trolls and ogres, of various walks of fantastical life is looking for "realism" necessarily.

I think in a lot of games, it is tactics. But in an MMORPG? Too easy a thing to exploit long-term.

Not that there aren't other exploits, but y'know. Probably an easier thing to fix.

Just like them warping through Rogue pickable doors. It makes sense so people can't just abuse that and totally eliminate (one of) the purpose of Rogues.

[Jimjam]

Well, there is internal realism and external realism, but fair point. A fantasy world should have it's own rules to go by. Perhaps superjumping mammoths/kitty pride orcs is one of those rules though.

I'm sure on live at one point mobs would open and close locked doors as they passed through (leading to hilarious consequences), which I guess could be explained as having their own set of keys which they didn't drop on death (much like how many NPCs are modelled to have armor they don't drop on death). If they didn't want NPCs passing through locked doors I would have found it less immersion breaking for them to treat them as walls and actually add content to make rogue skills relevant (see LDoN).

[Rygar]

On live, when Kunark came out, I think there was 2 weeks or maybe more where your HS or Seb key was NOT soulbound (soulbinding didn't exist).

At that point, it was HS or Seb, but now it is much less risky. That being said, it would still seem SG is hardest due to how hard the mobs hit and how they charm, etc.

For old school I would have to say Befallen just based on the design, I remember trying to level there with my brother on live like early release. Just based how the keys worked there, dying in and having to fight back in naked really sucked, especially for melee.

I remember trying Dalnir early on my monk because I wanted Crescent gear, but damn, those casters were nasty, never even got to the sarnaks. Just seeing how many mobs there were when dropping, etc I could tell it was rough. And that zone out pad had like 8 casters guarding it.

[Izmael]

Surprised nobody mentionned Chardok. Whole zone is a PITA.

Level adjusted, I'd say Dalnir and Runnyeye for sure.

Anything involving shaman mobs sucks for exp'ing except, for some reason, LGuk.

[Foxplay]

Kedge Keep - because fuk that zone

[Troxx]

At the appropriate level and with level appropriate gear (no twinking)?

Runnyeye or Dalnir would be my vote. Neither zone is forgiving. Tightly packed with caster mobs to boot. Both of these are lower level dungeons meaning you're tackling content without resist gear, high dps weapons, haste ... or even simple things like hp/AC rings.

Higher level zones you could make the case that 'appropriate' gear includes game changing items like haste, fungis, and good ratio weapons.

[Spyder73]

It definitely has to be Kedge Keep for me, biggest PITA for a variety of reasons - - Charasis is close behind with all the Harm Touches and floor pits - Sirens Grotto is ridiculous as well - Dalnir I don't really have a problem with.

The reason Runneyeye is probably the actual answer here is because of the level disparity. You can be hunting level 18-24 goblins then all of a sudden you have a level 35 Evil Eye wizard that gets agro's and starts raping the entire group. Its very reminiscent of a hill giant coming and raping your group out of no where when you are lower level.

[Expediency]

Splitpaw isnt that bad if you can get past the double door area. The bottom floor is underrated. That double door/bridge area is 100% deathtrap and turns everyone off.

[Cecily]

If hardest means impossible to play in... I'd go with CT. Out of LoS heals make that zone pure hell.

[Tenlaar]

Yeah, I'd put CT at the hardest while level-appropriate with the way it is, but that's not because of mobs or actual dungeon design. Just shitty wall healers.

As far as actual design, Kaesora and Dalnir have to be at the top of the list.

[Check12345]

On live, when Kunark came out, I think there was 2 weeks or maybe more where your HS or Seb key was NOT soulbound (soulbinding didn't exist).


I remember this. We needed 2 keys and had to duel outside before going in.

Also at that time, /duel result messages were server wide so you always knew when a group was going into Seb or HS.

Just imagine if they didn't soulbind the keys before VP was opened!

[Naethyn]

There has only been one dungeon that I've wiped in more times than I had a successful run. That's the crypt of dalnir so that has my vote.

Great place to camp the entrance though! Also agree with Dalnir being hardest dungeon in game on contest. From the 1 way drops, to the mixture of undeads, and a 6 minute repop. Don't even have to get to the part about how the end boss has a proc that kills a 60 easily. The place is rough and awesome for it.

[deezy]

Najena is on my list.

[Bummey]

HS

Many enemies here see .... even sneak hide (the latter being very rare anywhere in the game)
[/LIST]


eh? I've never been seen in HS and I've done a lot of corpse retrievals in there. Nothing in zone sees through rogue hide to my knowledge.

[Izmael]

The goos are supposed to see rogue hide. Never played a rogue on P99 myself though.

[Damn]

In appropriate era gear and level just from personal experiences

Sol a
Siren's Grotto
Dalnir

[Vexenu]

Dalnir seems to be getting a lot of nominations. I happen to have a level 35 Paladin I haven't played in awhile. Anyone with a low-mid 30s toon down to try a Dalnir dungeon crawl sometime this weekend?

[Rygar]

If hardest means impossible to play in... I'd go with CT. Out of LoS heals make that zone pure hell.

There is a trick to avoiding heals through walls, I had to learn it when soloing / grouping in the Hole (They complete heal through walls there).

It appears changes to Z-Axis effect wall heal range significantly. For instance, when in doubt, I always fight on the middle of a staircase. If you get a certain distance up or down the staircase, healers can be very close outside and not do a thing. I have never seen a mob heal through floors or ceilings either, even when fighting directly above or below a healer.

There are definitely safe spots where you can fight mobs, just have to learn the zone (can be a pain, but part of the fun of EQ is learning the intricacies of each dungeon IMO).

I don't per se know CT, but I'm sure there are areas where you can fight to your benefit and avoid heals.

[Rygar]

The goos are supposed to see rogue hide. Never played a rogue on P99 myself though.

The goos in South definitely have seen through a rogue's H/S in our group before. Can't say for sure all of them, but I'm guessing there is at least a chance they can. Not sure about East, never done that wing.

[Grizzler]

Dalnir seems to be getting a lot of nominations. I happen to have a level 35 Paladin I haven't played in awhile. Anyone with a low-mid 30s toon down to try a Dalnir dungeon crawl sometime this weekend?

Got a 30 druid that would be up for it.

[Utaman]

I always remember crawling the Mansion in Unrest being scary. I didn't feel safe until we got to the basement.

[Hitmonkey]

Tower of Frozen Shadow floor 2

It's not even close.

Never been to Dalnir I see...I did a dungeon tour when I leveled monkey and while ToFS 2nd floor was probably top 3 out of every dungeon so far up to 45 it's not even close.

Dalnir seems to be getting a lot of nominations. I happen to have a level 35 Paladin I haven't played in awhile. Anyone with a low-mid 30s toon down to try a Dalnir dungeon crawl sometime this weekend?

They hit a lot harder then you would expect for that level plus being a high percentage of casters. I wouldn't recommend it.

[Halox]

Dalnir. That pit...

[Ravager]

Kedge, because nobody knows how to group there.

[Knowmercy]

The hardest dungeon is the one your not familiar with. But that's part of the fun!

[Izmael]

The hardest dungeon is the one your not familiar with. But that's part of the fun!

Wise words. HS is an absolute (worst?) death trap for someone new to the zone.

Yet becomes pretty trivial after leveling a couple chars in there (well, south and east can always be dangerous if unlucky but everyone gets the same amount of luck in the long run).

[mickmoranis]

Kedge Keep - because fuk that zone

jesus yes, that shit was impossible on live.

This thread is only makin gme realize that there is no easy dungeon in everquest, the whole fucking game is hard :D

like I am when i play it :D:D

[fugazi]

I've fear kited in Runnyeye, second floor ToFS and all through Kaesora, but I would never ever dare enter Dalnir with our bard/paladin combo. Caster mobs, huge level variance, no way out once you drop down and it is huge AND a maze. Brrr.

Cazic-Thule is doable, but you got to know the zone's quirks. Siren's Grotto however .. kill me now.

[Ranndom]

For comparisons sake, at 52 and being a monk, I still hate lower guk. Ive always refused to xp in there

[alexnoshinku]

As a low level, unrest was a death trap. Other than that Kedge Keep most likely or chardok XD (If trying to solo)

[greenspectre]

Your experiences in Lower Guk would vary wildly based on your class. For a monk/warrior/SK/bard I could understand hating it. I main'ed a paladin during the first few expansions on live, and Guk was absolutely the easiest dungeon in the game for me. When Velious hit and we got IoN it became even easier. The only complaint I ever had about that zone were the goddamn bats that would break your IvU. Between Pacify, anti-undead spells, and stuns for the casters, a Paladin could start soloing there at 40 or so and never look back. Cashing out on loot there was always a good way to make money as a class that couldn't kill Hill Giants, too.

I know they're raid zones, but how come there's no mention of PoFear/Hate 1.0? I remember several raids wiping because you couldn't even zone in safely. Fear was the worst for that shit, too. Zone-in meant killing 10-20 mobs because they'd keep adding as you fought. And in Hate 1.0 they would just agro through the walls out of nowhere.

[MilanderTruewield]

Fact check prior to posting. I read the above post and was like "OMG! Instrument of Nife was a Velious spell??" Lo and behold, it is a Luclin spell :(

[Vexenu]

Since so many people mentioned Dalnir I decided to take a stroll through there last night to refresh my memory of the place. Can confirm: it really is that bad. Whoever designed and populated it was a special kind of sadistic. What makes Dalnir stand out is an extremely high mob density, and most of those mobs are casters or SKs. On the first floor alone you'll see multiple rooms with 4-5 pet casters in them. You also have see-invis goos interspersed randomly throughout the zone, so you can't reliably invis around safely. You drop down to the second floor and you're surrounded by a high density group of Sarnaks, including Wizards, Necros and Shamans. On most pulls you'll have to deal with 3-4 mobs at a time. Then you drop down to the third floor. The situation becomes even more claustrophobic, with very little room to manuever. Casters and see invis goos are running all over the place. You have to duck-walk through a bloody coffin to get to the second half of the third floor, which is filled to the brim with Sarnak casters. Then finally, if you want to leave this horrible place, you've got to get by the Kly Overseer to the zone-out pad. He seems to be a combination Wizard/Enchanter. He procs a 500 PBAOE ice spell and a stone spider stun (10-12 second stun I believe). He also charms.

So a very rough place for the mid 30s, especially if undergeared. A good Enchanter would be an absolute necessity, and a Bard for backup would be nice. A Paladin tank to help shut down the casters would be very helpful as well. Even with an optimal group composition and good twinking the zone would still be a challenge. I have a hard time imagining an average Kunark-era pickup group having much success there at all.

[greenspectre]

Sorry about that Milander, lol. Memory was a bit fuzzy there :( I forgot luclin gave us ANY spells pre-50.

[Mead]

Permafrost can be pretty annoying for all levels

[Izmael]

Permafrost can be pretty annoying for all levels

95% of the annoyance being actually running there.

[mickmoranis]

Im bumping this thread, I agree hardest zone for evenly geared players is definitly HS I dont think its any contest.

[86753o9]

Has anyone mention Befallen? It is more of a death trap than MM or unrest imo.

[SyanideGas]

HS & Sebilis in my opinion.
More so HS - harm touches hurt, including a bunch of other oopsies that could go wrong. CR's with no rogue in sight? No fun

[Caiu]

Crawling through SG castles or Chetari tunnels in DN.

[Gimp]

HS East in a landslide.

[Tecmos Deception]

HTs hurt. But HS rooms are like 5-6 mobs at the most, and they aren't always HTers. Double invis means free movement in much of the dungeon. Trash mob levels top out at 54 in east, 52 in south, 50 in west, like 46 in north, with no special bonuses to magic resist and max hits in the 140-160 range. Pathing is pretty consistent. CRs are possible without going into wings, though keying can be an issue without rogue or tricks.

Compared to SG... stuff sees invis, trash can be level 55+ while hitting for 300, being extra resisty, bugging pathing on z-axis, having tigher clusters of mobs. Chanter and cleric mobs cast symbols and wondrous rapidity. There are innate double backstabbers who can hit for over 800x2 while quadding for almost 300! And then there's icy servants.

I can prance around in HS south solo with hardly a care, in east or seb without much trouble at all. The only way I can solo (that I've found so far) in SG is by exploiting the stupid water-only mobs aggro mechanics and still having a cleric around to res me from pathing deaths, random times when being out of water didn't protect me from getting summoned, or just plain old deaths cause of shit being so much tougher.

I'd say hole is generally harder than HS or seb, DN is harder still, and SG takes the cake. Though maybe my familiarity with seb and hs makes me underestimate them compared to dungeons I don't know so well.

[skarlorn]

People solo HS all the time. Like you can even solo drusella if you are the right class with luck. I used to duo her all the time.

I agree with tecmos, sg is worse. You don't see lone enchanter and necros cutting thru that zone.

Sure hs is hard and unforgiving, but honestly once you understand how to deal with the zone it's not so bad. Actually one of my faves.

[Triiz]

Compared to SG... stuff sees invis, trash can be level 55+ while hitting for 300, being extra resisty, bugging pathing on z-axis, having tigher clusters of mobs. Chanter and cleric mobs cast symbols and wondrous rapidity. There are innate double backstabbers who can hit for over 800x2 while quadding for almost 300! And then there's icy servants.


^This. I'm baffled at the amount of people that think any part of HS is tougher than SG. I can only assume most of the people who think that have just never really experienced SG besides succoring or DAing from one side to the other. A lot of SG trash has as much if not more HP's than Drusella + all the stuff mentioned above.

If mobs traveled Norrath to fight other mobs, I would bet some of the trash enchanters in SG could solo any part of HS.

[branamil]

If we had access to some stats I would bet SG would be the least killed dungeon. I would bet some spawn points have never been killed by players since it's inception. Inside there castle there are sometimes 7+ mobs within line of sight to eachother, and 2 or more icy servants that proc a 500 pts aoe dispel. It's completely absurd, you would need more players than it takes for some ToV dragons. And for what? Netted kelp leggings?

[AgentEpilot]

Sirens grotto is pretty stupid since we have the balls out version and not the nerfed one.

Coulda swore it is the nerfed one we have, unless it went through another nerf on live at some point.

[aaezil]

Im bumping this thread, I agree hardest zone for evenly geared players is definitly HS I dont think its any contest.


This guy has never tried to go deep in SG lol

[mickmoranis]

HTs hurt. But HS rooms are like 5-6 mobs at the most, and they aren't always HTers. Double invis means free movement in much of the dungeon. Trash mob levels top out at 54 in east, 52 in south, 50 in west, like 46 in north, with no special bonuses to magic resist and max hits in the 140-160 range. Pathing is pretty consistent. CRs are possible without going into wings, though keying can be an issue without rogue or tricks.

Compared to SG... stuff sees invis, trash can be level 55+ while hitting for 300, being extra resisty, bugging pathing on z-axis, having tigher clusters of mobs. Chanter and cleric mobs cast symbols and wondrous rapidity. There are innate double backstabbers who can hit for over 800x2 while quadding for almost 300! And then there's icy servants.

I can prance around in HS south solo with hardly a care, in east or seb without much trouble at all. The only way I can solo (that I've found so far) in SG is by exploiting the stupid water-only mobs aggro mechanics and still having a cleric around to res me from pathing deaths, random times when being out of water didn't protect me from getting summoned, or just plain old deaths cause of shit being so much tougher.

I'd say hole is generally harder than HS or seb, DN is harder still, and SG takes the cake. Though maybe my familiarity with seb and hs makes me underestimate them compared to dungeons I don't know so well.

the difference between HS and every other zone is, once you die, you stand around and go... uh what now? we have no possible way of getting our corpses 'as normal human beings who play a video game'...

See when people who have logged over 1000 hours (that still die frequently) in HS say that its not difficult, then I kinda call BS.

SG is a tough CR but you can just bounce around on the water to get through most of it, let alone its really just not that big, not to mention you can invis through most of it once you get through the seahorses.

Remember folks 1000+ hours expereince doent mean the zone is easy, it means you are expereinced in it.

Take someone who has 0-10 hours of experience in there, and they're either going to be buying a corpse summon or waiting for one from a GM. Thats brutal dude, thats hard. Fuck up once? You dont get to try again.

This guy has never tried to go deep in SG lol

That is true but I have gotten all the decent loot that you can get from that zone.

Not to mention got most of the loot that matters to me I got solo with my shaman, it was actually quite easy. Most stuff that matters is single pulls and you can memblur (exploit?) and slow to your hearts content.

[mickmoranis]

If we had access to some stats I would bet SG would be the least killed dungeon. I would bet some spawn points have never been killed by players since it's inception. Inside there castle there are sometimes 7+ mobs within line of sight to eachother, and 2 or more icy servants that proc a 500 pts aoe dispel. It's completely absurd, you would need more players than it takes for some ToV dragons. And for what? Netted kelp leggings?

if you're basing the definition of a difficult dungeon based on how many people go to it, then you may as well say paw is the most difficult dungeon in the game. People dont go to SG becuse the quality of the pve is shit (to long to fight, not to hard) and the quality of the drops are shit (just this crap: Cloak of the Seacaller, Neriad Shawl, Seahorse Scale Cloak, Wavecrasher) and then put faction on top of it and there is your answer.

People dont go to SG cus its a junk zone, not becuse its super hard or something.

its damn pretty zone, but it aint no special zone thats off limits cus of difficulty.

People solo HS all the time. Like you can even solo drusella if you are the right class with luck. I used to duo her all the time.

I agree with tecmos, sg is worse. You don't see lone enchanter and necros cutting thru that zone.

Sure hs is hard and unforgiving, but honestly once you understand how to deal with the zone it's not so bad. Actually one of my faves.

The mobs are just not the type that are condusvie to soloing, look if you have an exploit (TOT on ht mobs) and the ability to swap pets, sure HS is a great zone for you, but dude watch a group of 6 go in there, and watch them warp out naked and then not know what to do for days without help from other high level players or a GM

That wont happen 100% the time in SG but it will in HS

[loramin]

Coulda swore it is the nerfed one we have, unless it went through another nerf on live at some point.

It did go through two revamps of some sort, but the first was minor (I forget the changes but there were only a couple). However, when someone mentioned the first one in a ticket the staff replied with something to the effect of "the first one is so small and the second one comes soon after, so we may not even bother implementing the first one" ... so here on P99 there might only be one.

I'm honestly not sure if they've implemented that one yet or not. If I had to guess I'd say not, because the "safe spot" marked on the map in the wiki has a walrus in it (but I'm guessing post-nerf it doesn't).

EDIT
This is the bug post I referred to: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217523&highlight=siren

[mickmoranis]

Look at it like this.

take all the mechanics in SG and all the mechanics in HS, make the mobs hit for the same, make them all HT the same, make them have all the same MR resists.

Which zone would be more difficult? The one that has 8 no rent keys for 99% of the zone? or the one where you can use water and dry land to expoit pathing, faction, and no keys at all?

one of those zones will end catastrophic log off naked failure and the other will result in some nice chap waltzing up to your corpses, draggin them back and then u all having another go at it.

HS > SG by far

Just because SG is broken and designed poorly doesnt mean its a harder zone, its just a broken zone with terrible mob stats that make it a waste of anyones time, not to mention the loot is pretty shit, you aint going to be leaving there with some treasure to sell from a PUG

[Triiz]

sure HS is a great zone for you, but dude watch a group of 6 go in there, and watch them warp out naked and then not know what to do for days without help from other high level players or a GM


What kind of group of 6 is this? Do they not have a rogue or necro? Seems unlikely. There's a bank a 1 min run away that anyone can use to store CR stuff in. A hard CR and a hard dungeon is two completely different things imo. A hard CR in HS is easily circumvented by inviting a rogue or a necro to the group also known as being prepared.

SG isn't empty because the loot sucks, a 150-200k best in slot drum drops there and a 70k belt drops there, Seahorse hide cloak from your list drops in Kedge. How many other zones can a small group that knows what they're doing walk out with a single item worth 150k (price was closer to 250k and was still empty) if they're lucky?

Every single mob in HS can be solo'd by a 60 enchanter, that is definitely not true of SG


EDIT
This is the bug post I referred to: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217523&highlight=siren

That post from Telin is from June, we are definitely in pre-nerf SG atm. The fact it was nerfed very quickly on live to be more "group friendly" just reinforces that it's the hardest dungeon in the game.

[Tecmos Deception]

the difference between HS and every other zone is, once you die, you stand around and go... uh what now? we have no possible way of getting our corpses 'as normal human beings who play a video game'...

This is just being lazy or bad, not "normal." It's not level 10 in crushbone. It's not level 35 in overthere. Just because you can't run directly to your body without invis, maybe needing to dodge a pather or two, and rez in a guaranteed safe spot, doesn't mean it's out of reach for a normal player.

1. Double invis
2. Monks, necros, shadowknights
3. Dying above tunnels
4. Rogues
5. Tricks (stalking probes, corpsed keys)
6. Friends; alts in convenient locations
7. Fighting back in


But enough about CRs. CRs are supposed to be a small part of what a remotely-competent group does. Even if I conceded, arguendo, that CRs in HS are harder... what of the majority of the time when you aren't CRing, but actually fighting?

At 60 in HS you're doing south or east. Fighting level 49-55 mobs that hit for 136-160. There's a necro here or there casting spells. Maybe half the mobs you pull can harmtouch for around 500. Resists are normal. Pulls are regularly 2-3 mobs at a time, biggest maybe 5-6 without legit training yourself. Pathing isn't bad.

At 60 in SG, you get to exploit water clearing aggro (if fighting mobs from the water, anyway), though it isn't always a get-out-of-jail-free card. The typical mobs you're fighting do stuff like: buff themselves with cleric HP buffs, cast 70% haste on all mobs within range, double backstab for 800, hit for 230-280ish, resist slow after tash 3-4 times in a row (or more)... even if they are the same level as stuff in HS. The tougher mobs are like killing a higher-level vox/nagafen. Pathing sucks. Swimming can be a pain. Pulls might be single regularly, but they can be 3+ too (have fun keeping stuff rooted or even sticking mezzes).


Remember folks 1000+ hours expereince doent mean the zone is easy, it means you are expereinced in it.

This doesn't work in your favor. If I spent 1000+ hours in SG, would I be soloing icy servants regularly? Breaking the rooms of sirens to kill a named one? Able to gate out, make a corpse, then run back in to my camp quickly enough to loot a lore item off a corpse? No.

[Tecmos Deception]

its damn pretty zone

We agree on this though, lol.

[Tecmos Deception]

Look at it like this.

take all the mechanics in SG and all the mechanics in HS, make the mobs hit for the same, make them all HT the same, make them have all the same MR resists.

Which zone would be more difficult? The one that has 8 no rent keys for 99% of the zone? or the one where you can use water and dry land to expoit pathing, faction, and no keys at all?

one of those zones will end catastrophic log off naked failure and the other will result in some nice chap waltzing up to your corpses, draggin them back and then u all having another go at it.

HS > SG by far

Just because SG is broken and designed poorly doesnt mean its a harder zone, its just a broken zone with terrible mob stats that make it a waste of anyones time, not to mention the loot is pretty shit, you aint going to be leaving there with some treasure to sell from a PUG

This is nonsense, man. "If we normalize all the dungeons, which one is hardest?" isn't the title of the thread or what the OP talks about. He talks about appropriate level and gear of the group.

If you wanted to do that, Kerra Isle would be the worst. Have you ever seen that fucking zone? Imagine it full of level 50-55 rangers, shamans, clerics, wizards... with all the pathers running around with sow and blinds/roots/snares/dots/heals/slows... all fully shaman buffed? Lol. Only mitigating factor would be outdoors so harmony pulls.

That'd be fun though, considering what different dungeons would play out like if you scaled their levels. Kerra or kurns at 55? Seb at 20? Haha.

[Lhancelot]

What kind of group of 6 is this? Do they not have a rogue or necro? Seems unlikely. There's a bank a 1 min run away that anyone can use to store CR stuff in. A hard CR and a hard dungeon is two completely different things imo. A hard CR in HS is easily circumvented by inviting a rogue or a necro to the group also known as being prepared.

SG isn't empty because the loot sucks, a 150-200k best in slot drum drops there and a 70k belt drops there, Seahorse hide cloak from your list drops in Kedge. How many other zones can a small group that knows what they're doing walk out with a single item worth 150k (price was closer to 250k and was still empty) if they're lucky?

Every single mob in HS can be solo'd by a 60 enchanter, that is definitely not true of SG



That post from Telin is from June, we are definitely in pre-nerf SG atm. The fact it was nerfed very quickly on live to be more "group friendly" just reinforces that it's the hardest dungeon in the game.

I was thinking all of this too when he said SG had trash for loots. :D

[branamil]

http://i.imgur.com/B5rGtMS.png

I mean you have a bunch of mid 50s mobs that are unmezzable except by rapture. Lull will fail. You don't have any room to feign pull, and plus they're casters. You're guaranteed to get at least 5-7 adds that with full cleric and enchanter buffs. If you're luck only one icy servant will come. You would probably need 3 groups to take this room. In fact it's probably not even fair to group SG as a "dungeon". You might be able to pick off a few loners with a group but it's basically a raid zone.

[skarlorn]

Seb at twenty is upper guk, tecmos!

[mickmoranis]

This is nonsense, man. "If we normalize all the dungeons, which one is hardest?" isn't the title of the thread or what the OP talks about. He talks about appropriate level and gear of the group.

If you wanted to do that, Kerra Isle would be the worst. Have you ever seen that fucking zone? Imagine it full of level 50-55 rangers, shamans, clerics, wizards... with all the pathers running around with sow and blinds/roots/snares/dots/heals/slows... all fully shaman buffed? Lol. Only mitigating factor would be outdoors so harmony pulls.

That'd be fun though, considering what different dungeons would play out like if you scaled their levels. Kerra or kurns at 55? Seb at 20? Haha.

who whoa whoa cool your jets man, lets not turn this into who can nerd rage the quickest, I want to just try to discuss it, i know its easy to heh.

But seriously, I would say, kerra isle, if it were a level 60 dungeon, WOULD be the hardest dungeon in the game.

Simply put even if you took 6 people who raid NTOV to HS that have never once leveled with eachother and said, ok here is a dungeon you have 2 days to get through it and get all the loot.

I think they'd do better in SG then they would in HS, barring the fact that some loot is just not 'gettable' becuse its not group loot in SG... SG is really more of a mini raid zone, not a group zone, hs is a pug group zone, not a mini raid zone.

I think they woudl discover that HS is WAY harder becuse of shit they were not excpecting...

RE-traversing each wing realizing they need keys they dont have, wipe, then realizing they need to retrieve there corpses naked or that the rogue is dead becuse they didnt know some biles see invis and some dont.

Traps, reseting progress in EACH WING

Idiots pulling 3 adds and wiping the group cus of HT's

That shit doesnt happen in SG, I have never seen someone accidientaly wipe a group in SG and I have in virtually every pug in HS

[Tecmos Deception]

Simply put even if you took 6 people who raid NTOV to HS that have never once leveled with eachother and said, ok here is a dungeon you have 2 days to get through it and get all the loot.

I think they'd do better in SG then they would in HS

Idiots pulling 3 adds and wiping the group cus of HT's

That shit doesnt happen in SG, I have never seen someone accidientaly wipe a group in SG and I have in virtually every pug in HS

I disagree. I don't think TOV-geared people would die in HS short of legitimately training themselves. Why would a caster with 3500 hp be afraid of 3 mobs that HT for 500 and melee for 140? Yeah, it COULD kill ONE person... but only if the cleric doesn't know what stun command is or the chanter is AFK and you don't have anyone in your group who can root. It's not about whether you know the zone at that point; it's just a matter of playing your character at a decent level seeing as you ARE in a level 50+ zone.

On the other hand, no level of gear will protect a group who doesn't know what an icy servant is from death when they engage one of them and fight it right in their camp cause they don't know safe locations and are worried about adds... let alone if they aggro two, or pull 5 mobs on themselves who break FD cause they're all level 55 casters, etc. And that IS what is going to happen in SG for people who don't already know the zone thoroughly.

You can try to move the goalposts if you want with this "SG is a mini raid zone" whatnot... and no one would deny that it isn't a sane or balanced place compared to basically any other dungeon in the game... but it's a dungeon, and the hardest dungeon, imo, for the reasons given.


If you've really done a number of groups in SG and never had one wipe because of someone doing something wrong, then it was because the "normal" folk you were talking about earlier KNOW SG is ridiculous and stay the hell away from it, not because it is easier than HS.

[mickmoranis]

I just think you are conflating a mobs HP to a mobs difficulty.

By your logic, any mob that is unkillable than a mob that is killable, is technically harder.

Which is just the wrong way to look at everquest. Really, everquest isnt a game about difficulty, its a game about progress and gear.

however, HS is a zone about difficulty, no amount of gear will help you get through locked doors that your corpse is stuck behind, no amount of gear will help you avoid traps that make the entire group reset their crawl.

HS is just a more difficult zone than SG, however the mobs have higher HP and MR in SG... thats the only difference. Again if the mobs were all equal, kerra ise/hs > SG

[branamil]

I have never seen someone accidientaly wipe a group in SG

That's cause no one does SG because it's too hard. I know you've never honestly grouped in there because aggro through floors and walls and water is notorious.

[mickmoranis]

That's cause no one does SG because it's too hard. I know you've never honestly grouped in there because aggro through floors and walls and water is notorious.

oh if thats the qualifier then MM is the hardest zone in the game.

[skarlorn]

lol mick how can you still be arguing this

HS is entirely soloable by a chanter, mostly soloable by a shaman(or necro), and all the content can be duo'd by a variety of classes

SG is harder than that.

i'll concede that the environment of HS is harder as you have to have a lot of knowledge to not let the dungeon itself kill you. but there's plenty of tricks to make it quite easy. Like, Die near a carpet. Then you can always get corpse from below... HS CRs aren't hard once you learn the place.

[mickmoranis]

thats not what constitutes difficulty in EQ though, by your logic any mob that is too high level to kill, is more difficult, thats just not hwo you can gague the difficulty of a zone IMO

I think if you look at it like, "would a group of players who are not twinked went into the zone with the intent of achviing loot and XP, they would have a harder time in HS than they would EVER in SG..

EVEN if you tried to just barely go deeper than the first 10% they could wind up with a night of literally just not knowing what to do, or how to get their corpses within 45 minuets.

[skarlorn]

the logic we should all be following is

"How hard is it to defeat the named mobs in the zone and acquire their pixels"

nothing else matters.

speaking as someone who led dozens of groups (untwinked) into HS to "achiiving loot and XP".

Your argument is presenting the problem "HS" and then creating a bunch of assumptions "no gear" "totally ignorant of a 18 year old game" in order to say "HS is the hardest zone in game. It only takes 1 or 2 skilled problem solvers to beat the puzzle of Charasis.

[Triiz]

I just think you are conflating a mobs HP to a mobs difficulty.


however, HS is a zone about difficulty, no amount of gear will help you get through locked doors that your corpse is stuck behind, no amount of gear will help you avoid traps that make the entire group reset their crawl.


SG mobs don't just have more hp. They hit harder, they hit faster since most are 70% hasted, they charm group members, they cast other enchanter spells, they CH, one has a dragon AOE. A 500 point one time use HT isn't that intimating compared to mobs that do 500 dmg a round, then immediately repeat that a few seconds later.

No amount of gear helps avoid traps? A magical thing called a lev cloak will, and even without lev if people use some common sense (don't step on rugs) or look at a map with the traps clearly marked.

If 6 NTOV geared people couldn't handle HS they should try to sell their accounts back to whoever they bought them from. You're obviously unable to be convinced otherwise, though.

[mickmoranis]

the logic we should all be following is

"How hard is it to defeat the named mobs in the zone and acquire their pixels"

nothing else matters.

speaking as someone who led dozens of groups (untwinked) into HS to "achiiving loot and XP".

Your argument is presenting the problem "HS" and then creating a bunch of assumptions "no gear" "totally ignorant of a 18 year old game" in order to say "HS is the hardest zone in game. It only takes 1 or 2 skilled problem solvers to beat the puzzle of Charasis.

you cant gague anything with that standard though, nothing. ONlyl if the mob cons red to you or not.

Look at tranix, hes substantially more difficult than a giant of his same level, or skarlon for that matter.

Is gore harder than some velious dragons? Yes, why? are some VP dragons harder than some velious dragons? Yes, why?

If you are going to try to judge an entire zone, you cant just say "permafrost is the hardest dungeon becuse its harder than runneye"

I mean dude, you have an open mind, you love the WHOLE thing that is everquest, and you cant see this? Thats whats really shocking to me.

The correct answer to the question, what is the hardest zone?

By your standards?

NTOV period no contest.

[Tecmos Deception]

HS does have hard mechanics. But knowledge can counter those. SG has hard mechanics that knowledge cannot counter. You're just confusing the issue if you can't realize what "hard" is supposed to mean in the context of the subject and first post.

It takes 0-1 wipes in HS for a competent group to realize they they probably should have a contingency plan in event of a wipe. Then the thing that you've been carrying on about for pages is nearly a non-issue. And even that first CR isn't that bad unless your group was like, 6 warriors or some shit so that you can't pick locks or invis or summon corpses or kill (albeit more slowly) without gear, etc.

But since SG is difficult to crawl through/farm/etc (you know, hard), even if you know how to move through the zone or do a CR or whatever, it is harder.

As for bringing ntov into this? I hope you're just trolling and not actually afflicted with a mental impairment.

[mickmoranis]

lol no, just becuse you can master something doesnt mean it wasnt hard.

The piano is hard, but you can master it.

However, surviving a gun shot, is not something you cannot master, it is not difficult to survive a gunshot to the face, it is impossible.

SG is almost impossible.

NToV is MORE impossible, so it is therefor harder, by your standards.

No hard, is something that can become easy if you are good at it, impossible is something that is not more difficult, its just impossible.

[Tecmos Deception]

Factor in the requirement of using level-appropriate gear.

Some of the lower-mid level dungeons are absolute deathtraps, which is why no one uses them. Examples:

Splitpaw Lair
Dalnir
Runnyeye
Droga
Cazic Thule

I would argue that these are actually some of the most challenging dungeons in the game when adjusted for level and gear. I still remember a particularly amazing/disastrous group I once had in Runnyeye that culminated in a fight to the death with a huge train of goblins, in which four group members were slain and two barely survived. Probably the most intense and memorable battle I've had in EQ. And in Runnyeye, of all places.

Anyway, the question stands: what do you think is the hardest dungeon in the game when adjusting for level and gear?

You really think it's appropriate to bring up ntov in this thread Mick? Lol.

[skarlorn]

http://i.imgur.com/1Fwmnb1.jpg

[mickmoranis]

in level apropriate gear, HS can completely destroy you, hell you could get stuck in west, unable to get out if you go past the drop off as a melee, even as a rogue who is level 50 and cant raise your skill to 201 to pick out of that area, forever.

I think if you are comparing SG to kunark dungeons, and using the high mr, high resist, often raid target mobs as examples of why its a "harder" zone than HS then yes of course its fair to say any zone with higher level mobs is therefor harder than SG

There is nothing, except for mob level/mr/hp that makes SG harder than HS. Which means, on even standing, if you compare all the elements that each zone has to offer, HS Is the harder level aproprtiate dungeon.

I mean, since you have to be level 52 to fight naggy, technically SolB is harder than SG because, in level appropriate gear, naggy is impossible for a 6 man group.

... just like some mobs in SG.

[skarlorn]

nagafen is a literal dragon and sirens are just hot chicks + fish sticks, so what's your excuse?

[mickmoranis]

nagafen is a literal dragon and sirens are just hot chicks + fish sticks, so what's your excuse?

two of the 4 named mobs in that zone have twice as many hitpoints than nagafen and hit for 1500

You're going to try to tell me thats group content for level appropriate characters?

Is level appropriate, 3-5 years of NTOV farming?

[skarlorn]

smaug was defeated by 1 human ranger.

sirens almost killed odysseus' entire crew.

prove it!

[mickmoranis]

I'm totally willing to admit that SG requires a raid force for the average group of appropriate gear/level characters, but I think that alone is the answer to if anyone thinks its a dungeon, or a raid zone.

While HS is clearly a dungeon, and is drastically harder for a group of mid 50's in appropriate gear for a multitude of reasons, from mob difficulty, environment layout, keys, traps.

I just think you bring 6 level 54's that have never been to HS before, into HS and said, GO

They would complete content that was possible for them to complete (nerriads and shit) in sg, with dificulty in the fight, but not in cr and regrouping, trying new strats and eventually winning.. while in HS when that same thign happens, you're stuck with either an impossible CR or one that will take the rest of your night, resulting in the group logging off demoralized and in mutual agreement to never go back.

[Drosis]

I like how this rickmoranis guy is trying to say that SG is now a "raid" zone because people are picking apart his argument that HS is harder than SG. Dude, go check out SG for a little bit and you'll see why its the hardest dungeon. Considering enchanters can SOLO/DUO there I definitely consider it a dungeon and not a "raid" zone. It's the HARDEST dungeon in the game. That's why Sony eventually nerfed it.

Let me reiterate what others have said in the thread:
In SG mobs sees invis, trash can be level 55+ while hitting for 300, being very resistant, bugged pathing on z-axis, tight clusters of mobs. Chanter and cleric mobs cast symbols and wondrous rapidity. There are innate double backstabbers who can hit for over 800x2 while quadding for almost 300! And then there's icy servants who aoe every 30 or so seconds for 500 damage (dragon aoe style) and dispel a slot.

I've done HS a thousand times and nothing in that zone compares to SG at all.

[mickmoranis]

ok well since i was able to get a nerriad shawl with my shaman who has 2k hp then SG is an easy zone.

[Drosis]

Also, Dragon Necropolis is a close second for hardest dungeon.

[mickmoranis]

Is it though? Im not arguing, im asking.

What group-able content is difficult to obtain there, vs what is just impossible to obtain because its just not 'groupable' unless you've been farming velious for a few years?

I have gotten that snake a few times with like 5 or 6 people, with 1 person kiting the zone around etc, i would say that is hard becuse you have to learn the strategy to do it.

But most people I know can pull that snake to the zoneline by themselves somehow, idk.

But those rats were easy to farm, with little threat really. Tons of safe spots to camp out rezzers and stuff too make me kind of on the fence for this one (there is also a safe spot in SG infront of the castle to do this, there is none in west that I could find or east of HS...

idk i still think pound for pound HS is a harder dungeon, its lower level than SG for sure, and DN, but I could be convinced because of lack of experience in DN that DN may be harder, idk.

[Mortiis]

In classic it was rare on rallos zek that anyone ever went inside the mistmoore castle, idk if that was the way it was on other servers but as soon as you set foot in there everyone around you was dead.

Exactly the same on Tallon Zek if I remember right. That place was a death trap. I've only been able to see the whole thing on P99.

Dalnir has my vote. I still have a lot left to see in the game. HS for one. I always rolled evil so I never wanted to trash my OT faction on live.

[fadetree]

Blackburrow, when we wore patchwork. Before the walls fell. Hodor.

[pasi]

To add to the SG-fiesta and toss a bone to any Kedge supporters.

Live EQ's water mechanics were a shitload worse compared to P99. You didn't see shit in water unless you skimmed the top of the water or used the rear-view inventory window.

[easy_lee]

Regarding Dalnir, it's tough, but doable. Breaking the camps and figuring out a strategy is the hard part. It mostly overwhelms people due to their lack of experience with it.

For the casters downstairs, any party with two fast melees can handle these if they know how. On my monk, duo'd the whole bottom floor (aside from boss, because screw that) in low 40's (mobs were blue). If you dual wield and stand right on the casters' toes, you can push them back and interrupt their casting. When they don't get spells off, they don't hit hard enough to be a threat. We kept up that duo pulling nonstop for about four hours, and both got a crescent set (legs take the longest to drop).

The casters are the hardest part about the zone, so it's all about having a counter for them.

[Alanus]

If we are going by level appropriateness:

Mid-level: Dalnir by far. So many casters. So many SKs with HT. Only way out is to deeper in, where Kly Overseer will beat the snot out of you. However, you can invis through pretty easily. But if we are talking level-appropriate group, Dalnir is never done for a good reason.

Honorable mention of Paw. Lots of casters and healers with intense mob density once you get past the double door. There's safe pull areas, but very difficult zone. A mid 30s group could probably do just fine, but it'd be difficult. If you forget to snare a mob, your group is dead

High-level: Siren's Grotto. Not talking about zone in areas (which are no cake walk), but farther in, the sirens. Single pulling is impossible. If you want to clear the temple area, you need at least 3-4 well equipped groups. On live, we used to do it as a guild to farm BP gems and we were a competent raid guild. One bad pull and we would have severe issues, even with 5-6 groups. It was bad. Charming mobs and trash mobs that AE for 500 with dispell.

Dragon Necropolis gets honorable mention, because of the chetari caves. A single group could certainly do this, but it's not easy. Tons of mobs in a small area. Traps are annoying.

Howling stones is not even in the same league as DN and SG. A single SG trash mob could probably take out Drusella and could possibly solo most camps there.

[easy_lee]

Mid-level: Dalnir by far. So many casters. So many SKs with HT. Only way out is to deeper in, where Kly Overseer will beat the snot out of you. However, you can invis through pretty easily. But if we are talking level-appropriate group, Dalnir is never done for a good reason.


I think the main reason why it's never done is lack of interest. Why bother when there are giants right next door that are easier, closer to vendors, and drop more plat? Crescent set is no drop, and there aren't many other useful drops in the zone. It's mostly monk and necromancer stuff, and is totally optional on both counts. Even if you get a valuable drop, it'll probably take longer to drop than a greater amount of plat from giants.

[Alanus]

I think the main reason why it's never done is lack of interest. Why bother when there are giants right next door that are easier, closer to vendors, and drop more plat? Crescent set is no drop, and there aren't many other useful drops in the zone. It's mostly monk and necromancer stuff, and is totally optional on both counts. Even if you get a valuable drop, it'll probably take longer to drop than a greater amount of plat from giants.

That adds to it, but level-appropriate wise, I don't think a mid 30s group could progress deep into Dalnir too easily

[easy_lee]

That adds to it, but level-appropriate wise, I don't think a mid 30s group could progress deep into Dalnir too easily

Probably not. A mid 30's group could handle the first and second floors just fine, and part of the third floor if they were careful. Beyond that point, things get rougher, but are still doable if there's an enchanter, two fast melee, and a healer in the group. Like I said, fast melees can keep the casters from getting spells off.

On the other hand, if you can break them and get these guys going, you're set. The final area of the third floor doesn't have too many roamers. Actually, everything up to that point has worse roamers than that final section.

Mid 30's group has no chance against the final boss, though. The most successful strategy against him is to keep him from getting his melee attack off. That ain't happening with a mid 30's group vs a level 42 wizard.

Regarding difficulty, I don't know of a harder dungeon in this level range, so I suppose it does take the cake. But it's not impossible.

[skarlorn]

ok let's start a new subcategory please.

the hardest dungeon in vanilla WoW was wailing ca^erns
hardest dungeon in BC WoW was Camping Sub 70 Alliance from the Back of my Wyvern
hardest dungeon in WOTLK WoW was "let's get down to business to defeat the huns"
hardest dungeon in Cata was Flying Mounts in Azeroth
hardest dungeon in MoP was logging into the game after a month
???

[Lhancelot]

ok let's start a new subcategory please.

the hardest dungeon in vanilla WoW was wailing ca^erns
hardest dungeon in BC WoW was Camping Sub 70 Alliance from the Back of my Wyvern
hardest dungeon in WOTLK WoW was "let's get down to business to defeat the huns"
hardest dungeon in Cata was Flying Mounts in Azeroth
hardest dungeon in MoP was logging into the game after a month
???

can't relate. can you switch games, make it EQ2 maybe? that might bring back good memories.

[skarlorn]

i don't know eq 2 but please go on

[Izmael]

Lol @ Blackburrow being hard, even in noob gear. You can run to the zone in seconds from about any spot in the zone, even deep in by the commander or the elite room. Sowless and jbootless strafe-running will get you to the zone safely like 9 times out of 10. If you die, you're bound 3 minutes away and nothing in the zone sees invis and you often can z-axis drag.

No casters except that rare weird named gnoll that drops a quest doll who is a shaman I think? Lots of single pulls, not too many tough pulls (I reckon commander room is a bitch if you're low-ish level).

Matter of fact, being outdoors and allowing for a dash to the zone line pretty much prevents any dungeon to be labeled as "tough" in my book.

I'm not even sure an outdoors zone can be called a dungeon at all.

[Lhancelot]

i don't know eq 2 but please go on

My brains memory is oversoaked with MMO info to the point I can't think back that far now. I was hoping you and your fresh young brain could bring up old memories that I'd recognize and enjoy. sigh. Disappointed. :(

[bestovv]

city of mist because i have more hours played in that zone than hours played on any other video game please make it stop make the visions stop send help

[TimTheToolmanTaylor]

hardest? the hole.
most difficult? up for debate. really comes down to a lot of factors such as experience with said dungeon, what class you are, how many people are with you, and what your goals are for the dungeon.

[mickmoranis]

hardest? the hole.
most difficult? up for debate. really comes down to a lot of factors such as experience with said dungeon, what class you are, how many people are with you, and what your goals are for the dungeon.

take a group of 6 players, who have never done HS, and ask them to kill the boss and exit the dungeon.

if they are normal people, they will be begging people for a corpse retrieval before half the night is over.

if they are in SG they will do it themselves.

to me, the former means you lost, the latter means you're working on it still. Ergo, HS is harder, becuse you just cant beat it unless you put in way more hours into it.

that to me translates to harder.

are mobs tougher in SG?

absolulty

is SG a more difficult zone? no.

[mickmoranis]

Also consider, the clown show of trying to make it through HS without ever knowing about the key system, traps, re traversal. By the time you've figured out HOW to get through HS, a competing 6 man in SG will have completed all the content.

[branamil]

Sounds like you're being defensive because you had embarrassing deaths in HS.

[mickmoranis]

no i just enjoy arguing about 17 year old games why are you so upset?

[Tecmos Deception]

no i just enjoy arguing about 17 year old games why are you so upset?

fuck yes

[Tecmos Deception]

Blackburrow, when we wore patchwork. Before the walls fell. Hodor.

Shaka, when the walls fell?

[Alanus]

Also consider, the clown show of trying to make it through HS without ever knowing about the key system, traps, re traversal. By the time you've figured out HOW to get through HS, a competing 6 man in SG will have completed all the content.

There's no way a 6 man group could complete all of the content in SG. Siren temple would cause a lot of problems,

[Vexenu]

There's no way a 6 man group could complete all of the content in SG. Siren temple would cause a lot of problems,

Since this is obviously the case, it really calls into question whether SG should be properly considered a dungeon at all. If a zone is designed so that a single level and gear appropriate group cannot complete all of its content, then perhaps it should be more accurately labeled a mini-raid zone or a multi-group dungeon.

This is why I can see where mickmoranis is coming from. SG is definitely harder than HS in the sense that it takes more killing power to be successful there. But that's because it's basically not a true dungeon at all. It's like if you're talking about who the toughest guy in the neighborhood is and someone is like, "Well, Brock Lesnar is a lot tougher." It's like yeah, no shit, but we're talking about guys from the neighborhood, you know?

I would define a true dungeon as meeting these criteria:

1) Indoors
2) Single groupable
3) Content intended to be used for leveling/XPing

Thoughts?

[Alanus]

Since this is obviously the case, it really calls into question whether SG should be properly considered a dungeon at all. If a zone is designed so that a single level and gear appropriate group cannot complete all of its content, then perhaps it should be more accurately labeled a mini-raid zone or a multi-group dungeon.

This is why I can see where mickmoranis is coming from. SG is definitely harder than HS in the sense that it takes more killing power to be successful there. But that's because it's basically not a true dungeon at all. It's like if you're talking about who the toughest guy in the neighborhood is and someone is like, "Well, Brock Lesnar is a lot tougher." It's like yeah, no shit, but we're talking about guys from the neighborhood, you know?

I would define a true dungeon as meeting these criteria:

1) Indoors
2) Single groupable
3) Content intended to be used for leveling/XPing

Thoughts?

But there are parts to SG that are single groupable, so not sure if that would work. I mean, Sol B is a dungeon but also has fire giants and Nagafen, which are raids

[Jimjam]

It can't be SG, because by the same metric Permafrost is harder. A level appropriate group is level 17 in rawhide, wielding shop bought claymores and two-handed warhammers, but there is a complete healing dragon in the zone. Plus fire and ice giants.

[easy_lee]

It can't be SG, because by the same metric Permafrost is harder. A level appropriate group is level 17 in rawhide, wielding shop bought claymores and two-handed warhammers, but there is a complete healing dragon in the zone. Plus fire and ice giants.

In addition to this, Dalnir is difficult at every appropriate level regardless of gear. I think that makes it a better contender for hardest dungeon than either Sol B or Permafrost.

On Sol B, just because a zone has raid content doesn't make it a raid zone. After all, every city has guild leaders, but we don't call cities dungeons. By the same token, just because a raid zone has group dungeon content doesn't make it a dungeon.

[skarlorn]

runnyeye will fall

[Triiz]

Since this is obviously the case, it really calls into question whether SG should be properly considered a dungeon at all.


Besides Sol B/Permafrost a 6 man group also can't kill Trakanon, is Sebilis not a dungeon? Velketor in Velks, Master Yael in the Hole etc.



On Sol B, just because a zone has raid content doesn't make it a raid zone
^Second this.

[skarlorn]

Hardest dungeon in the game is "Escape from Mother's Basement"

PM me for strats

[Spyder73]

Hardest dungeon in the game is "Escape from Mother's Basement"

PM me for strats

[mickmoranis]

Since this is obviously the case, it really calls into question whether SG should be properly considered a dungeon at all. If a zone is designed so that a single level and gear appropriate group cannot complete all of its content, then perhaps it should be more accurately labeled a mini-raid zone or a multi-group dungeon.

This is why I can see where mickmoranis is coming from. SG is definitely harder than HS in the sense that it takes more killing power to be successful there. But that's because it's basically not a true dungeon at all. It's like if you're talking about who the toughest guy in the neighborhood is and someone is like, "Well, Brock Lesnar is a lot tougher." It's like yeah, no shit, but we're talking about guys from the neighborhood, you know?

I would define a true dungeon as meeting these criteria:

1) Indoors
2) Single groupable
3) Content intended to be used for leveling/XPing

Thoughts?

yea, this a big reason I consider SG to be more of a mini raid zone than a dungeon, if you look at the square footage of the place, its way more in line with what you'd consider a raid encounter, than a dungeon, the fact that there are about 80% less drops than the average ever-quest dungeon leads me to feel this way, let alone the fact that some mobs are just not killable unless you have more than 6 people, or you're sicko 5 years emu server geared.

But there are parts to SG that are single groupable, so not sure if that would work. I mean, Sol B is a dungeon but also has fire giants and Nagafen, which are raids

Well, solB is more of a dungeon, with a SG attached to it. The fire giant section of SolB basically makes up half of SG's square footage, and actually has more item drops and named spawns than SG has all together.

Not even counting the XP/dungeon area of the zone.

[mickmoranis]

Shaka, when the walls fell?

Dar Ghoul and jibaner at The Tangrin, when the lev faded.