LoS member posts about raiding in Jan 2002

[stormlord]

I posted about this in the eqclassic forums several years ago. I went there earlier to see if my forum account still existed and it did. That's when I found this old thread I made. I thought it applies even more here at Project 1999, since we're deep into Velious now. Luclin was released December 2001. Tigole's post was made immediately after Luclin launch.

Unlike the comments made below (by Tigole) in Jan 2002, this server doesn't have Luclin. Does anyone know if it has the resist patch referenced by Tigole? However, what it does have is a much longer duration for classic, RoK and Velious. This server went for YEARS with classic and RoK, right? So my thinking is this should have created lots of high level players, potentially leading to several high level--clashing?--raiding guilds. So even though this server might not have the resist patch or AA's, the increased number of high level players might mimic the problems Tigole echoed.

What's the problem? Content congestion. A limited number of raid bosses means guilds compete for them. The more congested it's, the more guilds will compete or be forced to get in line to schedule their raids. His point is the more congestion present, the more players will quit or have nothing to do for stretches of time, since there're no raids to do. He outlines several possible remedies for it, like increased spawn time or more raid content.

(The obvious answer to content congestion in modern terminology would be instances. I've never liked them. Probably because Everquest was my first MMO--but otherwise I think they ruin the social atmosphere.)

So finally, my question. Do you think there's raid content congestion on Project 1999, at this late stage in its life; and do you think Tigole's complaints have merit, if so what do you think the answers are?

Raiding gameplay itself is a separate topic. I didn't raid much on live until 2009-10. For a few months I was in a midtier raid guild. It was highly disciplined. I was oftne impressed with the amount of work behind the scenes on their website and raid research. The guild leadership operated like military officers, placing expectations on those of us below. This highlights what ultimately pushed me away from raiding, just how regimented and time demanding it can be. It's unlike grouping, not nearly as friendly or adventurous. I understand some people prefer it. I say all this for some background on me.

You can look up the link on internet archive (is down atm surprisingly--to power outage):
http://www.legacyofsteel.net/oldsite/arc35.html
Excuse Me While I Ramble A Bit

I'd like to take a minute to openly address Verant regarding the *end game* of Everquest. If you're here to see dead mobs and new loots, just scroll down some. But for those of you at Verant (yes, I know you read this page) and for those of you interested in the *high level game* of EQ, this concerns you. This isn't about the *casual gamer*, so don't even bring those arguements into the picture. Apologies in advance if I get a bit touchy. You see some crazy bitch on a cell phone just came within three feet of running me and my dog over in a cross walk so I am a bit on edge at the moment. Also excuse any spelling or grammatical errors -- I have 16 minutes before my lunch breaks ends and I am typing this directly into this suck-ass, free-hacked HTML program. So just deal.

THE PROBLEM

The high end game in Everquest revolves around raiding. Currently, for a number of reasons which I will indentify, there are simply not enough spawns to keep the *raiding community* content. What happens when people are not content? They stop playing.

The truth is guilds such as my own will still succeed because we push the envelope on our server, usually trying and killing things before anyone else. For example, when the RoK expansion came out, Legacy of Steel had a good 10-15 Trakanon kills before other guilds even TRIED him. When the SoV expansion came out, we were trying Dozekar before any other guilds even ZONED INTO the Temple of Veeshan. We completely cleared the North Wing of ToV a good 10 times before anyone else even TRIED Ikatiar. Well, this is all fine and dandy and I am getting a massive swelled ego just thinking about it. But my point is, this magical period of mobs actually being hard, of no spoilers existing, only lasts for a VERY BRIEF period of time. To put it in perspective, when we wanted to learn about North Wing, we went and scouted it -- no spoilers existed because no one else even thought of going there. Only a handful of guilds serverwide ever went past the door. Check out these screenshots from over ONE YEAR AGO: Example 1 Example 2 . Things were HARD. In order to learn you had to risk dying over and over. You didn't run, crying to the Safehouse for spoilers. ToV-by-numbers didn't exist. Basically, killing stuff was a PRIVLEGE not a RIGHT.

Fast forward to present day. Well actually rewind a bit. The first major, game altering change took place with the big magic resist patch. While the patch was overall a good thing, making casters more useful, it trivialized a number of *uber* encounters. Now back to that fast foward. Add the Shadows of Luclin Alternate Advancement skills into the mix and you have created an environment where basically anyone who can gather 40 people in front of a mob and have them press A at the right time can kill about 90 percent of the uber mobs that exist. What I am saying is that uber encounters have been gimped -- straight up. Personally, I think the magic resist changes as well as AA skills are both GOOD THINGS and I applaud VI for implementing them but what needed to take place was a readjustment of the overall difficulty of ALL the existing uber encounters with these things in mind.

You've created a massive overcrowding problem at the end game -- bottom line.

Some Solutions

Like I said, I am strapped for time in a big way here so I'll just throw a few ideas out, ideas that seem incredibly obvious.

1) Add more end game content

This is the best option, hands down. Of course this is the least likely to happen. This requires VI to invest time and effort into doing something which (on the surface) seems to provide no fiscal reward for them. However, I'd consider that keeping people playing Everquest would be a wise financial move on VI's behalf. This idea could range from the addition of new uber zones to simply placing a few more mobs in under-utilized zones. Stick a boss mob in Plane of Mischief -- but stick him on a three day delay so the guild lucky enough to get N ToV doesn't also get this free mob. Have a dragon spawn in Dawnshroud or Hollowshade. Those are beautiful zones that go untravelled. Those are a few quick ideas -- I am sure you could come up with better.

2) Increase Spawn Times

I can hear the VI arguement on this one already, "Boss mobs were intended to be special, rare encounters and to increase spawn times would take away from the original dynamic vision of having these mobs in the first place" or some such predictable bullshit. But guess what guys? You trivialized uber mobs by making a zone called Western Wastes. You took end game, "privleged" mobs, models that before SoV only existed in Veeshan's Peak, and you made them Yard Trash.

So here comes VI's other arguement. "We cannot have boss mob loot entering the game at an increased rate." Well first off, bullshit. With patches every other day the loot is flowing like water. Secondly, you could reduce the amount of loot dropped in places where it's already out of hand (example N TOV).

Players would prefer to be able to RAID every day then to sit around bored for 3 days. Give us stuff to kill.

3) Randomize Spawn Times

You are creating enormous tensions among the player base on blue servers with these easy to predict spawn times. You also patch at the same time each day/week. Asian and European guilds get the pick of the litter and American guilds fight and rush over spawns as soon as they get home from school or work. Once the spawns are controlled, the respawn is obvious and predictable, once again favoring Asian and European players. You need to randomize these spawns. The tensions between guilds are high enough -- when you favor time zones you add RACIAL tension into the mix. Do I need to go on as to why this bad?

4) Triggered Spawns Need To Be Fixed

While originally the idea of mobs such as the AoW only spawning when the Statue died seemed good at first, it has turned into one of the worst and most frustrating facets of the game for AoW-capable guilds. The Statue dies to 60+ Asian players or to the European guild on our server before we're even out of bed. The AoW spawns, sits in the arena untouched and then poofs until 5 days later when 60+ Asian players or the European guild kill the Statue again before we're out of bed. How bout something like this -- When the Statue dies an UNTARGETABLE (yes because players are pricks and will kill NPCs to spite other guilds) NPC spawns -- a quest mob -- that would allow someone to SPAWN the AoW. Sure, he can only stay up 45 minutes. I like that -- it's a challenge. But have the NPC spawn after the Statue dies so that if someone actually WANTS the AoW (which we do!!!!!!) we can have a shot at him.

Same thing goes for these Ssrae Basement mobs. You get these guilds rushing down to the basement with no fucking clue what they are doing. Next thing you know the Glyphed/Exiled/Cursed spawn is BLOWN for the week and the dumbasses down there never even spawned him. Yeah, I like killing one mob and popping another but VI needs to address the *dumbass factor* for us because you've already made everyone THINK they are uber and capable of doing all this stuff when in fact they are wasting the FEW spawns we can actually enjoy killing. Please idiot-proof triggered spawns.

5) Tigole's Not So Popular Darwinistic Idea

This is my favorite but will never fly. I'll throw it out there for you all though. You want to make a patch-day cluster-fuck zone like North ToV? Fine. How about this. When VULAK is up in the Temple of Veeshan the zone becomes PvP. VI has THROWN US into a massive spawn competition yet gives us no means to settle disputes. We are not allowed to train, there are PnP rules, GM's do not get involved. We are left on our own with no way of settling our problems except *goodwill* and we all know goodwill and a quarter will buy you a phone a call.

Verant wont address the spawn competition in zones like ToV? Let us address it.

The truth is ToV is fucked beyond recognition and nerfing the CoH spot was the dumbest thing VI could have done. At least with the CoH spot two guilds could move around North Wing and not step on any toes till the end of the night. Now you've created leap-frog city -- that's the only way to go and it's sad. The real problem is that ALL THE BEST LOOT DROPS IN THE SAME FUCKING PLACE. And SoL loot isn't any better (so far) not to mention there is no MASSIVE CONCENTRATION of mobs like there is in North Wing. North Wing was a great idea before the magic resist patch, before the CoH spot nerf and before AA skills. Right now it's a clusterfuck waiting to happen.

If VI doesn't want to lay down the law there -- make the the zone go PvP when Vulak is up and we'll lay down the law ourselves.

6) More Server Splits

If you don't want to add new content, increase or randomize spawn times or give us other solutions to the crowding that exists in the end game then you're going to have to keep splitting servers. I have no idea how VI works. My guess is this option is probably somewhat costly.

Conclusion

Ok my time is up. I had some more ideas but I don't have time to spell them all out. Pretty much anyone with even the tiniest bit of knowledge of how raiding works in EQ could figure out solutions to the GLARING PROBLEM that exists across all servers. I don't mean this as criticism against VI. But VI were the ones who posted that stuff about "EQ never being the same" when SoL came out. You guys decided everyone needed to be *uber* (that word is laughable now) with the magic resist patch and the AA skills. You've created a massive network of roads but put no traffic lights in -- people are going to get sick of crashing into each other and find somewhere else to drive. Hell, maybe they'll just walk. Seriously, address these issues in some way before you start losing players over them.

[Jimjam]

Well, I read his post and I think the answer is obvious;
I think the answer to his problem is to release an expansion consisting almost exclusively of planar raid zones (although some areas of these zones can be grouped for xp).

There should be a tiered key system to ensure all the zones get used. Maybe add additional incentives to key through the zones through extra abilities or an item that powers up.

This should relieve congestion for a good time. Once players start massing in the top zone, just allow multiple copies of that zone to be opened. Also, maybe put a time limit on how long you can be in the top zone for at a time, with lock outs.

[wwoneo]

Well, I read his post and I think the answer is obvious;
I think the answer to his problem is to release an expansion consisting almost exclusively of planar raid zones (although some areas of these zones can be grouped for xp).

There should be a tiered key system to ensure all the zones get used. Maybe add additional incentives to key through the zones through extra abilities or an item that powers up.

This should relieve congestion for a good time. Once players start massing in the top zone, just allow multiple copies of that zone to be opened. Also, maybe put a time limit on how long you can be in the top zone for at a time, with lock outs.

Better solution... Find a new game.

[Jimjam]

I do get stuck on games.

Only beat em up I need is Street Figher 2.

Only team shooter I need is Counterstrike.

The only queue simulator I need is Everquest.

[shuklak]

What did vi do after this scathing post?

[Lhancelot]

So finally, my question. Do you think there's raid content congestion on Project 1999, at this late stage in its life; and do you think Tigole's complaints have merit, if so what do you think the answers are?

Sure there is some content congestion imo on P99.

The issue is that this server is basically a playground created by Rogean, who has left it open for all to enjoy with him, as far as I can tell from what he has done and what he has made clear he is going to do. His plans are concrete, and none of his plans involve instances, or any modern methods to deal with content congestion.

The only real solution that isn't a long term solution that they have already confirmed IS in the works is to create a Green server. This will be a freshly created new P99 server that will follow the timeline more correctly from the start of Everquest till the end of Velious, if I understand it correctly.

The discontent of raiders here is of little consequence to the grand scheme of things I think, as content congestion simply isn't of any concern to the creator of this server.

Adding any instances, or other modern day solutions to fix this problem on P99 simply Is Not Classic™.

[Swish]

Instancing is awful in terms of a cohesive online world.

"You're in our world now" loses its meaning completely. More like you're in your own spawned instance now, amirite?

[Lhancelot]

Instancing is awful in terms of a cohesive online world.

"You're in our world now" loses its meaning completely. More like you're in your own spawned instance now, amirite?

I honestly don't think instances ruin much as far as interaction goes.

I think what ruins interaction is when games include a grouping/matchmaking system and instant portals to instances, that's when you lose the communication aspects in the MMO.

As long as there's no instant grouping/matchmaking system or instant portals that make instances easy to access, you still have people needing ports to places, and you still force people to have to create their own groups to succeed in the instances.

[maskedmelon]

Well, I read his post and I think the answer is obvious;
I think the answer to his problem is to release an expansion consisting almost exclusively of planar raid zones (although some areas of these zones can be grouped for xp).

There should be a tiered key system to ensure all the zones get used. Maybe add additional incentives to key through the zones through extra abilities or an item that powers up.

This should relieve congestion for a good time. Once players start massing in the top zone, just allow multiple copies of that zone to be opened. Also, maybe put a time limit on how long you can be in the top zone for at a time, with lock outs.

lotta good suggestions here :3 as much as I LOVE classic an am happy to get to mess around with it, there was lotta fun to be had in the Planes of Power too ^^ i especially liked the PoJ trials in all honesty ((*^^*))

[isoka]

Looks like to me LoS didn't actually want to kill AoW else they would have put an alarm and wake up during the night to kill it while euros / asians would leave him up in arena.

[Rygar]

The basis of the post was to make the raiding community happier so VI doesn't lose players (i.e. Subscriptions, meaning $$$). This is a free server, so that argument doesn't quite apply.

The sad thing about this post is it is obviously a player that defines EverQuest in terms of raid content and loot. That is just 1 facet of a multi-faceted game.

Classic Everquest, and more importantly P99, should not be SOLELY raid based. Group, solo, level, help guildies, tradeskill, explore, host events, give away stuff to noobs...

If raid scene needs a 'fix', then GMs should enforce weekly bag limits: 4 or 5 FTE kills per guild. Participate in a kill with even 1 member? Counts towards your bag limit. Lets people get loot, lets other experience content, etc. Would even require cooperation to kill mobs like Vulak. Can maybe even be modified to forge alliances: 4 guild only FTE kills + 2 alliance kills (declared in Raid Discussion section).

This will keep the 'competition' that A/A craves and force them to prioritize targets, leaving lesser mobs open to up and coming guilds and casuals. Some poopsocked mobs such as VS / Fear Golems / Naggy / Vox / Kunark Dragons may not be tracked so hard and insta killed on spawn. People may be able to complete some of their epics rather than buy them (hi hi Soul Leech and Child's Tear).

[Foxplay]

(Warning Long Rant)

This post does not apply to the scope and vision of Project 1999. People need to stop and think about their personal desires and aspirations in the game and remember that Project 1999 is trying to create a playable time capsule. Its not out to correct the mistakes of the past, it set out to simply recreate the past so that players can experience and enjoy it in that state, because it simply put is almost an entirely different game that is not available on Live servers.

Raid monopolies and end-game or raid content congestion was a very real problem back in the day - simply put Its Classic. Now then a post from a LoS member from back in the day is looking at the game as a "Raid focused" perception, and thus he makes an insightful post to VI for suggestion for looking into the future in order to alleviate or fix what he percieves as problems or complications with the games "end-game" or simply put, congestion at raid content.

However Project 1999 is not about looking into the future. Its all about looking into the past. So his post really does not apply to Project 1999. Granted there are plenty of Not Classic changes on P99 many of which I do not agree with, and it will never be "perfectly classic" but in order to achieve as close to classic as they can recreate, it will defiantly not be "perfect" for everyone, especially people who don't want raid congestion.

Personally I hate the P99 raid scene for several reasons, yet I still love this server and would never trade its unique experience and vision for a True Classic Server for a server that was Classic but constantly looked to "Correct the past" because eventually it would no longer be an accurate representation of the past as it constantly looks to fix things as it would eventually get to a point where it was no longer Classic. It takes away from the integrity of its "Classic" experience.

There are several things Not Classic on Project 1999, many of which I do not agree with especially at the raid-scene (Variable Spawn windows - Tactics that take away from the "Fun" or "Experience"). And there are many game elements I do not agree with in Classic Everquest as well "Time locking and gear throttling players with 7day re-spawns is defiantly one of them!" Yet you don't see me on Agnarr enjoying raid instances, why is that? Because I value the challenge and experience of classic more than I value being able to raid at my leisure and get yummy yummy "Top end pixels". And if you are going to play on P99 for a long time you will have to come to terms with that, I had to and it was pretty painful...or get a batphone, brush up on your CoTH Quest, Rules Lawyering skill (255)!, buy a few more pairs of socks to deposit poop, and enjoy the character select screen for your "Raid Windows". Or go play TLP servers and enjoy the "True box" mage armies, Krono Farmers, P2Win Cash shop, and Daybreak.

There need not be a "Solution" for Project 1999 . Green server will help for those more concerned with raid congestion but the same problems on blue will happen on green and this time around on the merry-go-round I assure you some of them will be even worse. With a "True Timeline" on green that will follow Lives patch releases Pre-nerf items and raid content will come at an accelerated rate than on [Blue99] Making competition higher and most likely worse, Sure it will divide up the player base as not all of Blue neck-beards will jump over to Green but plenty of new players that stay away from Blue for reasons such as: Not in progression, Raid content congestion, Don't like the Community. These players who don't give blue a chance will jump on Green for the chance to experience that "New Server" hype wave.

As for the players that want raid content yet want [B]Non-Classic changes to remove "end-game" congestion the solution may be out of Project 1999's hands. I am confident if P99 staff released another server that had raid instances or Raid content that was farm able (Super fast re-spawns - No gear throttling) as well as other "Modern upgrades" It would be a very popular server probably more so than Live and TLP servers. In my opinion they do a wonderful job and have recreated Classic everquest very well, but that option may simply not be on the table for them for multiple reasons: Funding, Hosting Bandwidth, Limited Staff, Legal agreement with Daybreak.

[Whirled]

I posted here before RnF

[Rygar]

Also to point out... how many of you have loved Sneaksy's stories, a Deparment of Fun event, EverQuest mystery vids, or Filbus vs. Llandris for the battle of Rivervale??

I certainly have, it inspires me in some respects to see what this game SHOULD be about, and I would argue what the true original intention of EverQuest was about (community fun, roleplay, etc). Even guilds like <Auld Lang Syne> and <No Time To Rez> are creating fun spins on how to enjoy this wonderful game.

Entitled raiders demanding more, more, more for pixels they rarely use (my precioussss profile) is really odd to me.

[Jimjam]

I honestly don't think instances ruin much as far as interaction goes.

I think what ruins interaction is when games include a grouping/matchmaking system and instant portals to instances, that's when you lose the communication aspects in the MMO.

As long as there's no instant grouping/matchmaking system or instant portals that make instances easy to access, you still have people needing ports to places, and you still force people to have to create their own groups to succeed in the instances.

I always felt LDoN was way more social than what many expansions offered. You were forced to group, despite the instances, and there were a bunch of well populated hubs that people hung out at between instances. It was great!

Also to point out... how many of you have loved Sneaksy's stories, a Deparment of Fun event, EverQuest mystery vids, or Filbus vs. Llandris for the battle of Rivervale??

I certainly have, it inspires me in some respects to see what this game SHOULD be about, and I would argue what the true original intention of EverQuest was about (community fun, roleplay, etc). Even guilds like <Auld Lang Syne> and <No Time To Rez> are creating fun spins on how to enjoy this wonderful game.

Entitled raiders demanding more, more, more for pixels they rarely use (my precioussss profile) is really odd to me.

Totally agree, I've always felt the spirit of EQ was collaboration, and those who think they are winning through exclusion have misunderstood the most basic precepts of the game. But that is just, like, my opinion, man.

[fadetree]

Instances, forced rotations, or cuthroat competition. Take your pick, there are no other alternatives.

[Maschenny]

Sure there is some content congestion imo on P99.

The issue is that this server is basically a playground created by Rogean, who has left it open for all to enjoy with him, as far as I can tell from what he has done and what he has made clear he is going to do. His plans are concrete, and none of his plans involve instances, or any modern methods to deal with content congestion.

The only real solution that isn't a long term solution that they have already confirmed IS in the works is to create a Green server. This will be a freshly created new P99 server that will follow the timeline more correctly from the start of Everquest till the end of Velious, if I understand it correctly.

The discontent of raiders here is of little consequence to the grand scheme of things I think, as content congestion simply isn't of any concern to the creator of this server.

Adding any instances, or other modern day solutions to fix this problem on P99 simply Is Not Classic™.

Does Green solve congestion problems? Wont A/A just play on both servers? I dont think camping evil eye will damper their productivity on blue at all.

[Jimjam]

Instances, forced rotations, or cuthroat competition. Take your pick, there are no other alternatives.

Not true. Remove / ban raid content is an option.

[Erati]

Also to point out... how many of you have loved Sneaksy's stories, a Deparment of Fun event, EverQuest mystery vids, or Filbus vs. Llandris for the battle of Rivervale??

I certainly have, it inspires me in some respects to see what this game SHOULD be about, and I would argue what the true original intention of EverQuest was about (community fun, roleplay, etc). Even guilds like <Auld Lang Syne> and <No Time To Rez> are creating fun spins on how to enjoy this wonderful game.

Entitled raiders demanding more, more, more for pixels they rarely use (my precioussss profile) is really odd to me.

This guy has been QQing about the raid scene forever now lol

Everquest is anything and everything - its basically an 'all of the above' game in terms of the ways you can play it and enjoy it.

To each his own, but constantly griping about midnight mallets and things that you would like to see apply to 'your version' of EQ is laughable.

The OP showed me that we have done a fine job re-creating the same drama that existed back in the day over spawns and even have in a round about way done many of the same 'solutions' that he suggested.

kudos to OP

[Lhancelot]

Does Green solve congestion problems? Wont A/A just play on both servers? I dont think camping evil eye will damper their productivity on blue at all.

Well, I pointed that out, it's not a long term solution not one bit. Green would inevitably end up exactly as Blue has. So yes, I agree with you.

My other point was, Rogean isn't concerned about these issues, he built the playground and you can choose to play in it the way it's constructed or go play on a different playground.

[khanable]

Still blows my mind that jeff kaplan (overwatch) = tigole

This fuckin' nerd got a career out of being a EQ jerk!

[Pescador]

One key difference between then and now is the frequent patches he mentions - I'm sure we all remember on live, there was a weekly downtime in addition to sporadic downtimes for minor patches or other reasons. So full repops were happening quite frequently, whereas here you can go months at a time without a repop. I'm sure it's been suggested a million times, but frequent, brief server outages to force a repop (and mess with boxers!) would loosen up the raid scene at the top so you aren't forced to live and die on timers and trackers.

[Lhancelot]

One key difference between then and now is the frequent patches he mentions - I'm sure we all remember on live, there was a weekly downtime in addition to sporadic downtimes for minor patches or other reasons. So full repops were happening quite frequently, whereas here you can go months at a time without a repop. I'm sure it's been suggested a million times, but frequent, brief server outages to force a repop (and mess with boxers!) would loosen up the raid scene at the top so you aren't forced to live and die on timers and trackers.

That's a good point. And nothing unclassic would be involved.

[loramin]

One key difference between then and now is the frequent patches he mentions - I'm sure we all remember on live, there was a weekly downtime in addition to sporadic downtimes for minor patches or other reasons. So full repops were happening quite frequently, whereas here you can go months at a time without a repop. I'm sure it's been suggested a million times, but frequent, brief server outages to force a repop (and mess with boxers!) would loosen up the raid scene at the top so you aren't forced to live and die on timers and trackers.

Not classic! Oh wait, it's the exact opposite ... why does is this the only thing on the server that we're not trying to be classic about?

[Rygar]

Quite a stretch saying I'm trying to make it my version, it is like the PBAoE argument of 25 mobs not being classic exactly but mimicking the classic experience.

Zone line pulls on raid mobs and mallet dumping for agro is a stretch to say was widespread behaviour in classic, and even more of a stretch to say it wouldn't have been hit with a nerf bat if it was standard meta.

As a thought experiment, say a classic bug was found that you could hand in 1 copper to an npc and get some random tier 1 raid loot reward and enough exp to ding to 60. Do you leave it in because, "hey! It existed in classic! " Or do you stop and say, "was clearly not meant to function this way" and take it out? Ivandyr's Hoop a great example too.

[Zemus]

Quite a stretch saying I'm trying to make it my version, it is like the PBAoE argument of 25 mobs not being classic exactly but mimicking the classic experience.

Zone line pulls on raid mobs and mallet dumping for agro is a stretch to say was widespread behaviour in classic, and even more of a stretch to say it wouldn't have been hit with a nerf bat if it was standard meta.

As a thought experiment, say a classic bug was found that you could hand in 1 copper to an npc and get some random tier 1 raid loot reward and enough exp to ding to 60. Do you leave it in because, "hey! It existed in classic! " Or do you stop and say, "was clearly not meant to function this way" and take it out? Ivandyr's Hoop a great example too.

Slippery slope much?

[skarlorn]

tried to read; couldn't.

[nyclin]

Quite a stretch saying I'm trying to make it my version, it is like the PBAoE argument of 25 mobs not being classic exactly but mimicking the classic experience.

Zone line pulls on raid mobs and mallet dumping for agro is a stretch to say was widespread behaviour in classic, and even more of a stretch to say it wouldn't have been hit with a nerf bat if it was standard meta.

As a thought experiment, say a classic bug was found that you could hand in 1 copper to an npc and get some random tier 1 raid loot reward and enough exp to ding to 60. Do you leave it in because, "hey! It existed in classic! " Or do you stop and say, "was clearly not meant to function this way" and take it out? Ivandyr's Hoop a great example too.

you're competing with Trump for "most logical fallacies using the least number of characters" here

[Rygar]

Slippery slope much?

People always argue slippery slope, I can see that, but most everyone is conveniently OK with the no boxing policy (newsflash: not classic but ruined a lot of gameplay. Not even sure if RMT was classic allowed in our era).

Stop viewing in black and white and admit some gray areas are OK for the P99 experience, devs do a great job of not taking it to extremes.

[Rygar]

you're competing with Trump for "most logical fallacies using the least number of characters" here

Um... not sure what to make of this, thought I had a pretty clear response. Always amazed how angry people seem to get when I state my opinion on those matters and make things personal.

[Evia]

Well, I read his post and I think the answer is obvious;
I think the answer to his problem is to release an expansion consisting almost exclusively of planar raid zones (although some areas of these zones can be grouped for xp).

There should be a tiered key system to ensure all the zones get used. Maybe add additional incentives to key through the zones through extra abilities or an item that powers up.

This should relieve congestion for a good time. Once players start massing in the top zone, just allow multiple copies of that zone to be opened. Also, maybe put a time limit on how long you can be in the top zone for at a time, with lock outs.



I see what you did there. Haha

[Alanus]

Not even sure if RMT was classic allowed in our era


If I remember right, it was technically against the rules but not enforced at all. But RMTing and eBaying (as it was called then) was highly frowned upon

[Jimjam]

I like the idea of simulated patch day. Could have the server come down for 6 hours once a weeks so we can do our laundry, eat a proper meal and get uninterrupted sleep for a few hours.

The current system of not washing clothes for months at a time is unhygienic and unclassic tbh.

[stormlord]

Here's the LoS link from Internet Archive--there's just 1 save:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090608035756/http://www.legacyofsteel.net/oldsite/arc35.html

[stront]

I like the idea of simulated patch day. Could have the server come down for 6 hours once a weeks so we can do our laundry, eat a proper meal and get uninterrupted sleep for a few hours.

The current system of not washing clothes for months at a time is unhygienic and unclassic tbh.

^^

[nyclin]

Not classic! Oh wait, it's the exact opposite ... why does is this the only thing on the server that we're not trying to be classic about?

some browsing of the bug forum will quickly show you that changes which are confirmed classic, but might benefit players are ignored in lieu of vaguely sourced, questionably-classic changes that make the game harder. for example, we now have non-classic sneak pulling because Lazie spent 5+ pages posting unsourced anecdotal stories about it.

[skwayb]

Still blows my mind that jeff kaplan (overwatch) = tigole

This fuckin' nerd got a career out of being a EQ jerk!

Same thing the Furor Planedefiler.... Works at Blizzard.

[Tecmos Deception]

I honestly don't think instances ruin much as far as interaction goes.

I think what ruins interaction is when games include a grouping/matchmaking system and instant portals to instances, that's when you lose the communication aspects in the MMO.

As long as there's no instant grouping/matchmaking system or instant portals that make instances easy to access, you still have people needing ports to places, and you still force people to have to create their own groups to succeed in the instances.

I don't remember wow having some intense sense of community back before you could find groups and/or teleport to dungeons from anywhere.


I feel like it's abundantly clear that instancing kills community (and sense of community). Without instancing, players run into each other all the time in dungeons, in chat channels, at camps. You see people who aren't your friends or guildies, other guild groups, other guild raids. You run into people higher level than you, lower level than you, more hardcore than you, more casual than you. For better or worse, you have to deal with them. It behooves players to play nice, and most people understand that and prefer cooperation (or at least civility) because of it. It makes the whole game play out differently ... finding guilds, claiming camps, raiding, buying and selling items, leveling up (for both alts and new players), etc.

Everything feels contrived in instanced games. It's like FPS games or MOBAs compared to heavily modded, multi-player (but not MMO) RPGs. Communities in general are shit in the former, and imo it's because there's no penalty for being toxic and no reward for cooperating outside of your clan, no exposure to others in a natural setting so that people act like actual human beings through their avatars instead of like screeching autists. Communities in the latter are generally awesome because they're just the opposite; you generally need to not be a pariah or there's little point in that sort of a game.


Your mention of instant teleports to instances is a separate issue I think, but still an important one. Limited mobility in EQ led to much of the same things that non-instancing did. You ran into a wide variety of people in your travels, and you generally had reasons to be a well-balanced person in your dealings with those folks. People grumbled about luclin a bit because it got rid of this. People grumbled about POP a lot because it absolutely destroyed it.

Modern MMOs are loaded with fast mounts, flightpaths, teleportation, home points, etc. Wow didn't start off with a TON of it... but 60% mounts at 40 were about like giving every level 35 character in classic EQ jboots... and 100% mounts at 60 were about like giving every level 50 in classic EQ selo's. Plus wow had flightpaths! It was practically POP-level transportation right from the beginning, lessening contact between players in the name of convenience and less-delayed (though not yet instant) gratification.

[Lhancelot]

I don't remember wow having some intense sense of community back before you could find groups and/or teleport to dungeons from anywhere.


I feel like it's abundantly clear that instancing kills community (and sense of community). Without instancing, players run into each other all the time in dungeons, in chat channels, at camps. You see people who aren't your friends or guildies, other guild groups, other guild raids. You run into people higher level than you, lower level than you, more hardcore than you, more casual than you. For better or worse, you have to deal with them. It behooves players to play nice, and most people understand that and prefer cooperation (or at least civility) because of it. It makes the whole game play out differently ... finding guilds, claiming camps, raiding, buying and selling items, leveling up (for both alts and new players), etc.

Everything feels contrived in instanced games. It's like FPS games or MOBAs compared to heavily modded, multi-player (but not MMO) RPGs. Communities in general are shit in the former, and imo it's because there's no penalty for being toxic and no reward for cooperating outside of your clan, no exposure to others in a natural setting so that people act like actual human beings through their avatars instead of like screeching autists. Communities in the latter are generally awesome because they're just the opposite; you generally need to not be a pariah or there's little point in that sort of a game.


Your mention of instant teleports to instances is a separate issue I think, but still an important one. Limited mobility in EQ led to much of the same things that non-instancing did. You ran into a wide variety of people in your travels, and you generally had reasons to be a well-balanced person in your dealings with those folks. People grumbled about luclin a bit because it got rid of this. People grumbled about POP a lot because it absolutely destroyed it.

Modern MMOs are loaded with fast mounts, flightpaths, teleportation, home points, etc. Wow didn't start off with a TON of it... but 60% mounts at 40 were about like giving every level 35 character in classic EQ jboots... and 100% mounts at 60 were about like giving every level 50 in classic EQ selo's. Plus wow had flightpaths! It was practically POP-level transportation right from the beginning, lessening contact between players in the name of convenience and less-delayed (though not yet instant) gratification.

I drew my conclusion from modern games like SWTOR which heavily relies on group finder and matchmaking for warzones and flashpoints (dungeons). I suppose WOW could be included too, at least the most modern version of it anyway.

I see your point, but I don't think many players are bumping into eachother in raid zones where guilds mobilize to kill dragons on p99, let alone are these zones meeting grounds for straggling adventurers.

Sorry, I just don't agree that instances kill communities on MMOs.

[loramin]

some browsing of the bug forum will quickly show you that changes which are confirmed classic, but might benefit players are ignored in lieu of vaguely sourced, questionably-classic changes that make the game harder. for example, we now have non-classic sneak pulling because Lazie spent 5+ pages posting unsourced anecdotal stories about it.

I honestly don't believe the devs think "I could work on this bug or that bug, but this one would make players happy so fuck it I'll work on the other one" :) I'm sure they have considerations that we don't even think of, like wanting to work on parts of the codebase they're familiar with, or wanting to avoid working on parts that are written poorly, and this makes them work on bugs we care less about before ones we do care about.

What I meant was just that for everything else non-classic they have a rational reason (maybe not one everyone agrees with, but still a reason). Boats go the "wrong" way here because Verant couldn't tell East from West. Boats levitate you because it was the only way the devs could avoid tons of "falling off boat" issues. AoEs are un-classically limited to 25 because slow connection speeds gave a similar limit back in the day (and because not having limits created tons of petitions). And so on.

Same thing with resets: there must be some logic as to why they don't do resets here, beyond just "they hate us", and I'm genuinely curious whether anyone knows what it is.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

All that Tigole Bitties ancient post shows us, is that end game content has always been the problem in eq, and any mmo. eq2 tried to at least put a halt to the headaches by instancing with lockouts but that was a blow to the competitive aspect of the game.

There is no solution to the end game problem, except one thing that has never been tried: varying what actually happens in the end game zones. Figure out a rubric of difficulty range, and have it so that you never know what abilities end mobs will have or do, etc. After a wipe or aggro reset, the abilities also reset. So you never know what you will get.

This would have been a better solution than instancing, which was the lazy way out. The solution to decongesting the end game is to increase the likelihood of even the best guild wiping as the norm.

[skarlorn]

Wrong.

The solution is to just have all raid content respawn every 10mins after death.

Except woushii.

Kill vulak? vulak repops in 10mins.
Kill zlandi? zlandi repops.
Killstatue? statue repops.

Repeat forever. Just see how far these dicknoodles will go.

would be hilarious; casuals would definitely get merbs

[Rygar]

Wrong.

The solution is to just have all raid content respawn every 10mins after death.

Except woushii.

Kill vulak? vulak repops in 10mins.
Kill zlandi? zlandi repops.
Killstatue? statue repops.

Repeat forever. Just see how far these dicknoodles will go.

Vulak would likely never die since he summons other dragons to him. I question even with cooperation from other guilds if this could be achieved (not sure how many people the zone could support to kill them all in around a similar time + kill Vulak in under 10).

May just need a gathering of 120 wizards plus a few debuffers to try and burn him instantly (someone do the math for me on wiz damage to Vulak HP, too lazy). That would be a fun raid challenge right there.

[shuklak]

The community is very real on Agnarr. You can still be a sick obviously but people know they can bump into you again.

I was in a pug the other day and someone in the zone needed a rez who died near us in guk. Our cleric refused just because the other guy was tagged in faceless.

Instances and pick zones would be a boon to p99 imo and actually help the community become healthier.

[Jimjam]

Agnarr has its own congestion problems though.

Just as P99 is saturated with items from it's huge periods of velious and kunark, Agnarr is saturated with loot from the top dungeons there, especially as there are so many instances of each desirable zone.

Skull-shaped barbutes for example barely sell to players for more than vendors give, about 60pp. On p99 they go for 5 times that!

[Foxplay]

Vulak would likely never die since he summons other dragons to him. I question even with cooperation from other guilds if this could be achieved (not sure how many people the zone could support to kill them all in around a similar time + kill Vulak in under 10).

May just need a gathering of 120 wizards plus a few debuffers to try and burn him instantly (someone do the math for me on wiz damage to Vulak HP, too lazy). That would be a fun raid challenge right there.

Although probably a bit more difficult now without Intra-zone gating (Binds inside ToV). Vulak can and has been killed on p99 multiple times with other North dragons being up. I'm not sure how they do the rules in ToV nowadays regarding conceding and kiting, But when I raided (quite awhile ago) Pulling Vulak with other dragons up and just conceding the other dragons was common practice by both the big guilds (Rampage / Forsaken alliance)

[Rygar]

Although probably a bit more difficult now without Intra-zone gating (Binds inside ToV). Vulak can and has been killed on p99 multiple times with other North dragons being up. I'm not sure how they do the rules in ToV nowadays regarding conceding and kiting, But when I raided (quite awhile ago) Pulling Vulak with other dragons up and just conceding the other dragons was common practice by both the big guilds (Rampage / Forsaken alliance)

I heard rumors this was a bugged mechanic on P99 due to the standard meta of pulling him to zone line and fighting him there.

Assuming summoning mechanic is in effect, I am still curious how many wizard nukes it would take to instant kill him.

[Lhancelot]

Figure out a rubric of difficulty range, and have it so that you never know what abilities end mobs will have or do, etc. After a wipe or aggro reset, the abilities also reset. So you never know what you will get.

This would have been a better solution than instancing, which was the lazy way out. The solution to decongesting the end game is to increase the likelihood of even the best guild wiping as the norm.

I think this is a great solution to congestion and stagnant, boring, same old same old fights! Damn this idea is brilliant.

More than one guild get get to the encounter, and even if one got FTE, the chance they might fail would be present leaving the opportunity for the other guild(s) there to try for the raid mob.

Also, those who do not get FTE could watch and perhaps understand what the mob is doing fight-wise, so not having FTE initially could benefit the other guilds who failed to get FTE.

Another variation of this could be to simply have the mobs randomly spawn in different locations so when you went to point A, mob _003495 wasn't always there. That could add some problems to the encounter if guilds didn't automatically know what to prepare for every time. Obviously, the raid mobs would have to consist of spawn variations for that zone, but maybe that could add some spontaneity to high end raid encounters.

[Alanus]

I'd like to see them add the ring of vulak event to TOV after Vulak dies

[fadetree]

Not true. Remove / ban raid content is an option.

Well, so is 'turning off the server', but neither does anything to solve the problems. If you are suggesting that remove/ban raid content is a PUNISHMENT to achive order, then you are talking about forced rotations. As I said: forced rotation, instances, or cuthroat are the only options that actually work over any kind of extended period.

[kotton05]

Also to point out... how many of you have loved Sneaksy's stories, a Deparment of Fun event, EverQuest mystery vids, or Filbus vs. Llandris for the battle of Rivervale??

I certainly have, it inspires me in some respects to see what this game SHOULD be about, and I would argue what the true original intention of EverQuest was about (community fun, roleplay, etc). Even guilds like <Auld Lang Syne> and <No Time To Rez> are creating fun spins on how to enjoy this wonderful game.

Entitled raiders demanding more, more, more for pixels they rarely use (my precioussss profile) is really odd to me.

Simply put my friend... everyone's quest is different.

[khanable]

my questing style is better than ur questing style

[Lhancelot]

Simply put my friend... everyone's quest is different.

Well put.

[fadetree]

Simply put my friend... everyone's quest is different.

Yep. And don't forget, there are other worlds than these....

[stormlord]

I'll supply some thoughts of my own now.

First, maybe raids shouldn't be something you do all the time? Tigole's complaint was there're not enough raids for the population's consumption. We all know most progression games have an end. It's a soft or a hard cap--sometimes a hybrid. Hard caps end immediately, whereas soft give decreasing returns. It's rare to see a soft cap go on forever equitably--so enjoyment falls. After you've acquired most group-based rewards and maybe a few raid rewards, progression in Everquest hits a soft cap. It continues, but returns diminish eventually to zero--a hard cap. So Everquest is a hybrid. Instead of calling it the "long end," Tigole wants it to be compressed.

If raid content is going to be consumed at equal amounts to grouping, then there're a few things we must accept. The first is you should be able to raid as much as you're able to. This is true with grouping and there's no reason it shouldn't be with raiding. This means spawn timers have to fall dramatically. Not days, but hours. OR it means more raid content. Second it means more players will be raid equipped earlier. Like a dammed river, if you remove the dam the water will rush past. Raid items will flood players. Third, the soft cap existing prior will now be shorter. Whereas b4 they might be playing with the soft cap for 5 years, now it might only be 1. It'll start later in raid progression, after they've acquired several of the best items.

This would effectively shorten the duration of Everquest progression. Without the several years of soft cap raiding progression, years will be removed from the progression of a character. This doesn't mean players won't login anymore after hitting hard cap, but it means there'll be 0 benefit for their character.

In reality, you might play forever trying to get that one single item to hit the hard cap. Some items are rare. But that's beside the point. Whether you're staying logged out for 5 days waiting for the next raid, or playing through 6 raids in 5 days and failing to get an item because you only have 1 slot to improve, they're both the same progression-wise. You WILL hit this end eventually.

[stormlord]

All that Tigole Bitties ancient post shows us, is that end game content has always been the problem in eq, and any mmo. eq2 tried to at least put a halt to the headaches by instancing with lockouts but that was a blow to the competitive aspect of the game.

There is no solution to the end game problem, except one thing that has never been tried: varying what actually happens in the end game zones. Figure out a rubric of difficulty range, and have it so that you never know what abilities end mobs will have or do, etc. After a wipe or aggro reset, the abilities also reset. So you never know what you will get.

This would have been a better solution than instancing, which was the lazy way out. The solution to decongesting the end game is to increase the likelihood of even the best guild wiping as the norm.
Too hard to implement. And you don't think players would get more frustrated?

The idea is interesting but have you ever raided? Wiping is normal when you're learning a raid. You can't learn if it's resetting its abilities or behaviour after every wipe. I don't think that's work.

What you seem to be doing is injecting more luck or randomness into the fight to equalize the playing field. By randomizing abilities, those who've learned them aren't benefited. This is less rewarding.

How do you figure that's the only solution? Never say never.

[skarlorn]

As a Transcendent Quester I personally love all elves

For instance last night I was messaging Erati a little bit. He may have been killing Lord Dragon12, but I was on my level 20 permadeath druid trying to sell an EXTREMELY RARE potion that HE HAD NEVER SEEN to him, or raiders in Awakened.

All Quests are Equal in value, but some quests are just cooler :-)

The coolness of your quest is relative to your server-fame.

For instance, Cucumbers, a Raid-Quest Lizardlord, would be less server famous, except he was a prime champion of a very undesirable race/class combo for many years. This is why his quest has been cooler than many peoples.

A great way to increase your Quest-Coolness is to join the Rivervale Vanguard.

prause to the chief

[stormlord]

(Warning Long Rant)

This post does not apply to the scope and vision of Project 1999. People need to stop and think about their personal desires and aspirations in the game and remember that Project 1999 is trying to create a playable time capsule. Its not out to correct the mistakes of the past, it set out to simply recreate the past so that players can experience and enjoy it in that state, because it simply put is almost an entirely different game that is not available on Live servers.

*snip*

There are several things Not Classic on Project 1999, many of which I do not agree with especially at the raid-scene (Variable Spawn windows - Tactics that take away from the "Fun" or "Experience"). And there are many game elements I do not agree with in Classic Everquest as well "Time locking and gear throttling players with 7day re-spawns is defiantly one of them!" Yet you don't see me on Agnarr enjoying raid instances, why is that? Because I value the challenge and experience of classic more than I value being able to raid at my leisure and get yummy yummy "Top end pixels". And if you are going to play on P99 for a long time you will have to come to terms with that, I had to and it was pretty painful...or get a batphone, brush up on your CoTH Quest, Rules Lawyering skill (255)!, buy a few more pairs of socks to deposit poop, and enjoy the character select screen for your "Raid Windows". Or go play TLP servers and enjoy the "True box" mage armies, Krono Farmers, P2Win Cash shop, and Daybreak.

There need not be a "Solution" for Project 1999 [Blue]. Green server will help for those more concerned with raid congestion but the same problems on blue will happen on green and this time around on the merry-go-round I assure you some of them will be even worse. With a "True Timeline" on green that will follow Lives patch releases Pre-nerf items and raid content will come at an accelerated rate than on [Blue99] Making competition higher and most likely worse, Sure it will divide up the player base as not all of Blue neck-beards will jump over to Green but plenty of new players that stay away from Blue for reasons such as: Not in progression, Raid content congestion, Don't like the Community. These players who don't give blue a chance will jump on Green for the chance to experience that "New Server" hype wave.

*snip*
Amen. You're right. I also think the reality is most of us who play p1999 will never raid or raid consistently. It takes a long time to be at a level where you can help in a raid or have what they want.

Why did I come here, so many years ago--Jan or Feb 2010? For the old game, not the raids. I played for a while. Made a lot of alts. My highest level was 22 or 23? Raiding was the furthest from my mind.

[Swish]

Amen. You're right. I also think the reality is most of us who play p1999 will never raid or raid consistently. It takes a long time to be at a level where you can help in a raid or have what they want.

Why did I come here, so many years ago--Jan or Feb 2010? For the old game, not the raids. I played for a while. Made a lot of alts. My highest level was 22 or 23? Raiding was the furthest from my mind.

Yep this is true. I did want to see Plane of Hate and Fear again after so long, and re-experience how difficult it was breaking in during vanilla when there's still people with bronze/banded pieces they havent replaced yet.

...but yeah, Plane of Sky EVERY week? I know I burnt out on that and tried to look forward to Hate/Fear or Chardok royals even (yikes) over Sky.

The game was very social back in 2010, everyone reverted to their 1999 selves and weren't confrontational or abusive, and any camp disputes I had were usually resolved without a petition (lucky because after Uthgaard and Hobby left Amelinda was a one GM show for a while).

And now, toward the end of the Velious timeline where are we? Actually its not as bad as the forums suggest but a lot of people are craving something new. Any custom content would be awesome in due course, teams pvp, green server, discord, Project M, anything :D

[Lhancelot]

...a lot of people are craving something new. Any custom content would be awesome in due course, teams pvp, green server, discord, Project M, anything :D

This is 100% true. ^

[Dreenk317]

TEAMS PVP!!!!!!

Edit: project M was fun too. I remember once me and a buddy were a bat and a rat. Got to level 4 in WFP and proceeded to hunt down newbies, some of the most fun I've had in this game.