Which is the more active class, Enchanter or Bard / How to play them?

[BarkingSpider]

Was just wondering what the more active class is and what types of activity exactly do they have?

I know Bards typically twist songs in groups, but that seems kind of similar to just modern day MMOs, right? 11 22 33 44 etc? What other things keeps a bard active and constantly doing in groups, or is that the majority of it, twisting buff songs?

For Enchanters I know you have haste / clarity buffs, but that's like every 30mins, nothing compared to shaman buffing. Once you have a pet charmed you pretty much just sit and chill sending it to attack whatever mobs the puller brings, right? Then root / mez any additional adds that come.

Is this for the most part how each class is played while grouping? Is there anything I am missing?

[mcoy]

There are several good videos on twitch or youtube of people playing the classes. You've described about 10% of a bard's, and maybe 20% of an enchanter's abilities. It all boils down to how you want to play your class.

This guy has a few interesting ones (CipherDec):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLzwQRdENv5Xk_pC4MhmGNg

Also Tecmos has some great chanter videos, but it's mostly solo:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkZSPYt5AYEE9Y-_FTW4HZg

-Mcoy

[Dreenk317]

Bards are extremely active in a group. Either twisting mana for casters and healers. Or twisting resists/ds/haste/buffs for the group. Or mezzlocking adds as they come to camp. Or often you will be the best puller for the job with your ability to lull and charm and mez. A good bard can always be doing something more for the group. A lazy bard gives other bards bad names. That being said. Sometimes the best thing to do is to just pump mana.

[Rygar]

Keep in mind on an enchanter your charm is random duration (I think only Dictate is fixed, some vets can correct me). So it is hardly charm and kick back and relax. I have had charm break during the first tick, have had it last really long (never maxed it yet as I been soloing, so been charm breaking for good exp gains).

Its pretty stressful to be honest, when you have a charmed pet you shouldn't step away from the keyboard for even 5 seconds, you won't have the HP to eat a lot of hits, especially if you are hasting a pet.

I have to admit, since playing enchanter I realized how easy mode my Monk has been. Charming is pretty stressful, I haven't really grouped but I can see crowd control being stressful, especially when managing a pet. I don't endorse buff timers (not classic) but I know there are hacks for it.

I learned that having only 8 spell slots is torture on an enchanter as well, I'm constantly swapping spells in and out, get a charm break during that swap and its more stressful.

I have a lot more respect for enchanters now, the Noman videos from Tecmos helped me get the hang of things. But seeing the videos makes it seem soooo easy, I was a fumbling mess when I started, died a ton.

[Jmcwrestling]

I can't speak much for bard but I main my enchanter so maybe I can give some insight.

Playing an enchanter is all about micro management imo.
You are constantly dealing with random situations and applying the correct tool to the appropriate problem.
Charming , buffing , mezzing , slows , all of this stuff seems easy and it can be, but every enchanter can tell you that they have the method to their madness hard coded into their brain. Obviously if you're in a full group , monk pulling and charming a green / low blue mob, then yes it's pretty chill but being able to micromanage a pets aggro, whilst effectively controlling your battlefield , and keeping buffs up and juggling a grenade while you do all that is intense at times.

The key to enchanting is efficiency. You need to utilize your UI, learn to quickly swap spells on a seconds notice (hell, I swap spells between a mobs attack round occasionally if it's called for).

And to add a dimension to the whole thing, you have to make a battle plan in about 4 seconds once you realize shit hits the fan.

Bad enchanting is very easy, but good enchanting makes you a God among mortals in group and solo content.

As far as being an active class, it all depends on how you play you're toon. Every class can be active if played to their potentional. I believe it's what makes the difference between good and bad players.

[mcoy]

I can't speak much for bard but I main my enchanter so maybe I can give some insight.

... and juggling a grenade while you do all that...

Perhaps the best description I've ever heard.

-Mcoy

[BarkingSpider]

So there is a lot of spell swapping to gems as an Enchanter? Is it anything compared to shaman spell swapping?

Also, for enchanters, how much of a difference does Charisma make when charming / pets breaking early? If I have only 100 or so Cha, will by pets break constantly? Or if I do a green / blue mob, then it should last a decent amount of time regardless?

[skarlorn]

Tons of spell swapping for an enchanter, especially if you don't have a goblin ghaz ring. You dont' "sit back and chill" when you have a pet, because that's a one way trip to Death-Town. If you are in a group, your lowest possible effort is throwing out Cs and Hastes. SOmetimes you'll have to mez, so it's important you are at least watching on a second screen. But if you are a good group member, you'll have a charmed pet which will be a constant drain on your mana/putting your life in danger, so you'll need to be very active.

Bards are similar in a group because you could be a real shitter an djust play 1 song, or you could twist a couple of songs and autoattack. But the best bards are fucking insane, they are singing a song while they play another on the flute and then also soloing led zeppelin stairway to heaven while they dive into the entrance of mistmoore castle and come out with a train of 20 vampire assassins who they are AE snaring and then kiting around in a circle on the CE plateau, all while still feeding mana to their hungry casters, then when they see the cleric mob CHing itsefl they'll hit it with a quick mezz to interrupt the cast, and then they'll charm a mob out of the pack and use it to attack another mob in the pack and they're still running in circles kiting 4 other zombie vampire lords while playing the flute and the fiddle and singing bohemian rhapsody but OH SHIT the tank has bad posiitioning and the rogues are pushing that gargoyle over the ledge and they're gonna fall off so you use your mezz pushback effec to save the day and you're an incredible god running in circles kiting 2 mobs left your wrist burns with the flame of carpal tunnel but the exp flows in so fast you've got a huge erection and you whip it out and start tapping keys with it to keep up the song twisting and then you dive back into mistmoore castle to get more bad guys


so i would say bard has a propensity for more activity

[branamil]

I have leveled both classes to 60. The enchanter is far more demanding.

Bard activity has a lower ceiling of expectations because each song only lasts ~18 seconds. There is only so much you can fit into that time. That's about 3 buffs or 3 mezzes. If you have 3 mobs in camp you have to mez, you have to stop playing your buff songs. If they pull 7 mobs mobs into camp, the enchanter is expected to lock down 6 of them. Already they have a higher standard to meet.

Bard spell lots are not that competitive. It's pretty obvious which songs you need to memorize, and rarely did I struggle choosing which songs. Enchanters have far more needed spells and we have to swap them out constantly.

On top of that, the enchanter is expected to keep a charmed pet at all times which could break any second.

[Twochain]

VoG PLEASE

I have leveled both classes to 60. The enchanter is far more demanding.

Bard activity has a lower ceiling of expectations because each song only lasts ~18 seconds. There is only so much you can fit into that time. That's about 3 buffs or 3 mezzes. If you have 3 mobs in camp you have to mez, you have to stop playing your buff songs. If they pull 7 mobs mobs into camp, the enchanter is expected to lock down 6 of them. Already they have a higher standard to meet.

Bard spell lots are not that competitive. It's pretty obvious which songs you need to memorize, and rarely did I struggle choosing which songs. Enchanters have far more needed spells and we have to swap them out constantly.

On top of that, the enchanter is expected to keep a charmed pet at all times which could break any second.

[Swish]

Tons of spell swapping for an enchanter, especially if you don't have a goblin ghaz ring. ...

Roll dark elf and remove the need to own one, my biggest mistake on red and I made one on blue to correct it <3 Sure it's not 100% effective but it works enough of the time that I'm happy to play the lottery with it :)

Personally I find a bard is more active than an enchanter, I think the two classes are the only ones I have on both servers (and cleric). Bards don't just have to do what the enchanter is doing in terms of mezzing, slowing, charming, etc... but they have to keep pace with twisting songs during combat, pull where necessary, and because of charm's short duration find ways of convincing the group which NPC is the pet at a given moment (sit works as well as them not being able to do damage to it on blue server, but RIP the unclassic /pet feign, was a great indicator).

Bards are more active and harder than enchanters, there I said it ;)

[Aalderon Crystafire]

Bards are more active and harder than enchanters, there I said it ;)

I feel this -- assuming you're a quality Bard.

Typically I don't think of leveling/XPing as fun but those times at the CoM moat where I would be the main tank, puller and crowd control to keep the group going when we couldn't find replacements were a blast. When you're engaged you're not staring at the XP bar every minute and it all goes by much faster.

I will note that as an untwinked Bard I need a cleric if I'm going to tank -- Shamen or Druids just won't do. I really enjoy pulling most of all but unfortunately we get beat out by the Monk later on in this department.... Bards really should've had feign death in classic for this reason... plus... theater....acting...faking death.... yeah.

The class really gets a bad reputation because of all the swarmturd faux-Bards that were out there who get to 50+ without ever really playing the class.

All that being said... I have the most respect for Enchanters in groups because of crowd control which requires the most cursor movement and therefore the most focus. If I have an Enchanter in my group their pet is always my 'previous target' so I can can [~] + [Mouse 4] + [~] again to target/mez it before it even gets a hit off on them and get right back to main target . The duration is short enough that it can get back into action relatively quick after they recharm.

[Legidias]

When barding in seb: Puller, tanker, CC'er, haster, (somewhat slower), mana regen-er.

Tanking is interesting without any auto attacking at all and twisting in mez at the same time

Dopest xp group with bard / shammy / 2 rogues

[shuklak]

If you thought playing a guitar was hard to learn then try to play a guitar and riposte someone swinging an axe into your skull.

That's what its like playing bard.

[Swish]

If you thought playing a guitar was hard to learn then try to play a guitar and riposte someone swinging an axe into your skull.

That's what its like playing bard.

Right! And what kind of reputation do bards have on p99 for being so awesome...?

[chris.hijiri]

Having played about every class to 60+ on live except a few including enchanter and bard which i came to the boards for suggestions on which class to play as an alt~

enchanter is a min/max'rs wet dream. A ton of power combined with a lot of dieing.

[Rivera]

Bards can probably do more in any given group situation and I'd consider them the most potentially "active" class. Enchanters are generally more important, stressful and difficult to play though. I think some people in this thread are getting those confused.

[Merlikan]

The most fun though in chanters is playing with agro, if you pay attention, you can get it down so good that you can mess with a group or raid and get away with it. A couple of examples, Dragon Necropolis with a raid going down the cave I think, haven't done on p99, sitting and standing moves the mob just a few feet. I always warned my cleric of course what I was doing, made a little funny most of the mobs were easy enough. 2nd example in Kael, I would tell my cleric ahead of time I was going for agro and was summoned 4 times by the big guys on a regular basis, most people didn't mind and they knew if I was there it would probably happen. There are a lot of things that enchanters do but you must always know and understand agro, how to achieve, back off and just have fun with it.

Thats my thoughts, I haven't played bard past mid 30's so not really sure.

[Llaile]

I have leveled both classes to 60. The enchanter is far more demanding.

Bard activity has a lower ceiling of expectations because each song only lasts ~18 seconds. There is only so much you can fit into that time. That's about 3 buffs or 3 mezzes. If you have 3 mobs in camp you have to mez, you have to stop playing your buff songs. If they pull 7 mobs mobs into camp, the enchanter is expected to lock down 6 of them. Already they have a higher standard to meet.

Bard spell lots are not that competitive. It's pretty obvious which songs you need to memorize, and rarely did I struggle choosing which songs. Enchanters have far more needed spells and we have to swap them out constantly.

On top of that, the enchanter is expected to keep a charmed pet at all times which could break any second.

Maybe you only think enchanter is more demanding because by the sound of it you're a pretty terrible bard.

[branamil]

Maybe you only think enchanter is more demanding because by the sound of it you're a pretty terrible bard.

Maybe your feelings are just hurt that bard is pretty gimped compared to enchanter.

[Evia]

Reading this thread I can tell who has grouped with skilled bards and who hasn't.

Bard class in the hands of a skilled player is literally the most impressive sight to behold in Everquest imho. I've seen 3 in my 18~ years playing eq. It's rare.

When someone bards like a multi-tasking phenomenon Jesus, there is no debate on who is most active.

[skarlorn]

a multi-tasking carpal tunnel lord indeed, very impressive stuff but I always feel sorry for the permanent damage they are doing to their bodies

[Evia]

a multi-tasking carpal tunnel lord indeed, very impressive stuff but I always feel sorry for the permanent damage they are doing to their bodies



I made my spell bar 1-8, on my numpad. It makes twisting carpal tunnel free! Just a simple 11,22,33, ect on the numpad. Granted, I'm not half the bard ive seen those handful of bards become, so maybe carpal tunnel clicking is the secret to success who knows.

[Aalderon Crystafire]

a multi-tasking carpal tunnel lord indeed, very impressive stuff but I always feel sorry for the permanent damage they are doing to their bodies


I made my spell bar 1-8, on my numpad. It makes twisting carpal tunnel free! Just a simple 11,22,33, ect on the numpad. Granted, I'm not half the bard ive seen those handful of bards become, so maybe carpal tunnel clicking is the secret to success who knows.

Since I like to use WASD for movement, and have my mouse in hand... I use mostly 1-4, and 9 and 0 on my mouse 4/5. I spread the hotkeys/songs over a few pages, because it is easier to press shift+3, 3... or Shift+Mouse 4, Mouse 4 to start a song than it is to stretch. In any case... if you use good technique it will not hurt you or cause injury.

[Legidias]

If you want maximum barding, the shift or other button + numbers doesnt work well at all. Even 11 --> 22 wont get max buffs because that little delay in clicking same key means dropping a fifth buff. Need to use another key so that you can press intended song key immediately after, i.e. 21,32,13 (for twisting songs 1, 2, and 3).

And you need to watch the cast bar really closely for max uptime. Due to slight server lag, you need to stop and cast next song when there is like a micrometer left on the cast bar, which will let your current song cast finish and start next one.

If charming in group, since you'll probably be standing right next to charm mob and no time to really let it run at you to re charm, you gotta keep in mind how long your charm timer still has and then queue up charm before pet breaks so that it will land like 0.1 sec after charm break so mob doesn't have enough time to bash you and interrupt.

Theres a lot of things that go into barding that other casters dont deal with

[Egilmn]

You need song macros, first line /st and next line /cast #. No period. If you aren't doing that then you aren't doing it right. 1 press per cast, double efficient and half as annoying.

[Lhancelot]

a multi-tasking carpal tunnel lord indeed, very impressive stuff but I always feel sorry for the permanent damage they are doing to their bodies

lol this. ^^^

[Legidias]

You need song macros, first line /st and next line /cast #. No period. If you aren't doing that then you aren't doing it right. 1 press per cast, double efficient and half as annoying.

This is terrible advice. No bard should ever use song macros as youll at max only ever twist 3 songs reliably without buffs dropping. If a add pops up, need to have mez / charm ready. If a song misses a note, need to be ready to cast it again immediately. If you have a clicky (i.e. BoH) need to stop cast to click.

[falkun]

This is terrible advice. No bard should ever use song macros as youll at max only ever twist 3 songs reliably without buffs dropping. If a add pops up, need to have mez / charm ready. If a song misses a note, need to be ready to cast it again immediately. If you have a clicky (i.e. BoH) need to stop cast to click.

Wrong. That is solid advice. By having two lines, one with "/stopsong" (or /stopcast), and the other with "/cast #", you cut your keyboard clicks down by half. For stopping for BoH (MH only, can't be combined with epic until epic patch that allows song modifiers in OH), just create another macro that stops your song (/stopsong). Having the /stopsong in the same button as the /cast will allow you to interrupt to cast that mez/charm, and works still if you've missed a note.

Every bard should have macros for their songs that precede the /cast command with a /stopsong.

Note, I do not recommend having multiple /cast lines within a single macro. That is "ghetto /melody" and, as you mention, breaks if you encounter a missed note.

[Legidias]

Even if thats what he meant, still terrible (imo) advice. The time lag between macro lines is too long. Even 11, 22, 33 is slower than using another key to stop a song then casting another one.

Its a good starter way to get used to twisting easier, but being able to stop and cast a song that much quicker (~0.5sec) is worth it as it can be the difference of a mob bashing your face in and getting a mez / charm off.

[Pescador]

This is terrible advice. No bard should ever use song macros as youll at max only ever twist 3 songs reliably without buffs dropping. If a add pops up, need to have mez / charm ready. If a song misses a note, need to be ready to cast it again immediately. If you have a clicky (i.e. BoH) need to stop cast to click.

It's easy to twist 5 songs with a stopsong / cast # macro. Also, you can click BoH during the delay between stopsong and cast, so you don't even need to interrupt your rhythm.

The additional fraction of a second that double tapping provides isn't worth clicking twice as much, imo, especially since you can still keep 4 songs up 100% of the time. 5 is really only needed for special cases like multi-mob mezzes while maintaining buffs or something. If I'm grouping for 5 hours in Seb I'm not going to be maintaining a 5 song twist no matter what hotkey system I'm using. Plus, as soon as you throw in mezzes, charms, or bashes, you're better off with 3-4 songs anyways where double tapping offers no practical advantage.

[Egilmn]

Legidias is like a cantankerous old-timer who doesn't seem to understand how /st or /stopsong works, so he will argue with you regardless of how much better your advice is. If he just makes a song macro for each song like the way I said, then he will understand and wonder what he has been doing all this time as a bard.

So will all of the other 11, 22, 33 tappers.

[Legidias]

It's easy to twist 5 songs with a stopsong / cast # macro.

Nope. Its just a pure time issue with the macro commands. You'll always have the last buff drop off as you cast the 'extra' song if you use macros.

And keep bein the lazy 3 song twist bard Egil. Lol @ "better" advice to make twisting slower. I never argued that its way easier to use macro. Simply for min/max it will never be the best method.

Anyways, back to the original point of the thread, the fact that we can debate purely on how much speed is necessary in twisting should show that bards are more active.

[zanderklocke]

Come read about my surgery on my wrist due to playing a bard! ;)

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176915

http://i.imgur.com/iXKEib5.jpg

To be honest though, the kiting with my hand on the mouse moving in a circle repetitively a few years ago is what messed it up my wrist. I can remember one session when I was leveling up in South Karana in 2012, and my wrist felt super numb/sore after like an hour of kiting. I squeezed my wrist until it made a popping noise, much the same as knuckles make a popping noise when someone cracks their knuckles. I then went right back to leveling for another hour or two. Over time, kiting aggravated and created a ganglion cyst in my wrist. The repetitive tapping of keys to twist songs never really affected my body at all. I got the ganglion cyst removed, as seen above, but it came back. :/

[Lhancelot]

Come read about my surgery on my wrist due to playing a bard! ;)

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176915

http://i.imgur.com/iXKEib5.jpg

To be honest though, the kiting with my hand on the mouse moving in a circle repetitively a few years ago is what messed it up my wrist. I can remember one session when I was leveling up in South Karana in 2012, and my wrist felt super numb/sore after like an hour of kiting. I squeezed my wrist until it made a popping noise, much the same as knuckles make a popping noise when someone cracks their knuckles. I then went right back to leveling for another hour or two. Over time, kiting aggravated and created a ganglion cyst in my wrist. The repetitive tapping of keys to twist songs never really affected my body at all. I got the ganglion cyst removed, as seen above, but it came back. :/

Did you explain this to the nurses in the hospital room when they asked how you hurt your wrist, or did you do the smart thing and claim it was from your extensive MMA career?

[Raavak]

I had a similar issue. After years of playing wizard I had to get a butt replacement.

[Aalderon Crystafire]

If you want maximum barding, the shift or other button + numbers doesnt work well at all. Even 11 --> 22 wont get max buffs because that little delay in clicking same key means dropping a fifth buff. Need to use another key so that you can press intended song key immediately after, i.e. 21,32,13 (for twisting songs 1, 2, and 3).



Hi Legidias,

There is some miscommunication here but what is clear is that you care about actually playing a Bard well!

So when I say shift+#, then a #, the shift+# is to turn the hotkey page and this is done while channeling your first song so it doesn't add time to the actual twist. All this is doing is keeping the buttons you have to press right next to WASD.

So as example on page 1 you would have 1, 2, 3, 4 as songs 1, 2, 3, 4 ..

then on page 2 you'd now have 1, 2, 3, 4 as songs 5, 6, 7, 8 of your spell slots.

SHIFT+1 or SHIFT+2 is just turning the page and changing whether your 1-4 keys will be songs 1-4 or songs 5-8. You wouldn't turn the page just before your song is done channeling but well in advance.

This can be used with or without /stopsong. If I were twisting songs 1-4, and 6 with Legidias' method it might be something like.... 2-1, 3-2, 4-3, 3-4 (Shift+2 while this song is now channeling), 1-2 (which would now start channeling song 6, where you'd then SHIFT+1 to go back to page 1).

If you use /stopsong then it would just look like 1, 2, 3, 4 (shift+2 during channel), 5 (shift+1 during channel), etc. You're going to have some drop-off though on the 5th song when you use /stopsong.

The point is just to keep all of your songs in the 1, 2, 3, and 4 slots because of their proximity to WASD.

If you have one of those mice with a zillion buttons then you can probably ignore all this.



As far as /stopsong goes...

keep bein the lazy 3 song twist bard Egil.


You can do 4 songs (not 3) 100% with ease when using stopsong macros. You can have a 5th song but it will apply as the first one drops off just as you say.



So will all of the other 11, 22, 33 tappers.

but he isn't:

Even 11, 22, 33 is slower than using another key to stop a song then casting another one.


Yes. It will always be faster to press 2 different keys because of how the computer keyboard registers. This is why quality digital pianos have added a 3rd sensor to mimic the double escapement action of a real piano - allowing you to quickly repeat a note without having to fully release it.

i.e. 21,32,13 (for twisting songs 1, 2, and 3).

The only change I'd make is 43 or 23 instead of 31. It's easier and faster to use keys adjacent to one another.



Anyways, back to the original point of the thread, the fact that we can debate purely on how much speed is necessary in twisting should show that bards are more active.

Yup!

[Lhancelot]

Bard songs are not great - no reason to twist 5 when all anyone wants 55+ is Cantina and maybe a damage shield...Bards are inferior to almost every other class in the game for any purpose besides running in circles killing low/mid level trash

Why you drop a bomb on the bards? This was rude bro.

[Borak]

Why you drop a bomb on the bards? This was rude bro.

It's hard to take someone seriously when they've probably seen the icon on their screen for hours on end and can't remember it's spelled Cantana, not Cantina.

I mean, when "Bards are inferior to almost every other class in the game for any purpose", why ask them for resist songs on certain encounters, when so many other classes can do resists better? Why do rogues and monks keep asking to group with epic'd bards on raids, I'm at a loss! /s

I am reminded of an old BASF commercial that used to air 15-20 years ago. The tagline was this: 'BASF. We don't make a lot of the products you buy. We make a lot of the products you buy, better.'

[Lhancelot]

It's hard to take someone seriously when they've probably seen the icon on their screen for hours on end and can't remember it's spelled Cantana, not Cantina.

I mean, when "Bards are inferior to almost every other class in the game for any purpose", why ask them for resist songs on certain encounters, when so many other classes can do resists better? Why do rogues and monks keep asking to group with epic'd bards on raids, I'm at a loss! /s

I am reminded of an old BASF commercial that used to air 15-20 years ago. The tagline was this: 'BASF. We don't make a lot of the products you buy. We make a lot of the products you buy, better.'

I was surprised, I seen bard-haters but it's usually aimed at the swarmkiters not the group bards.

[Cleric4]

Bard songs are not great - no reason to twist 5 when all anyone wants 55+ is Cantina and maybe a damage shield...Bards are inferior to almost every other class in the game for any purpose besides running in circles killing low/mid level trash

Cantata + Chorus x 3

[Aalderon Crystafire]

It's hard to take someone seriously when they've probably seen the icon on their screen for hours on end and can't remember it's spelled Cantana, not Cantina.



It's actually supposed to be Cantata - typo on Verant's part. They fixed it later but we haven't applied that yet to P99... I'll have to check the timeline.

[Fifield]

Bard songs are not great - no reason to twist 5 when all anyone wants 55+ is Cantina and maybe a damage shield...Bards are inferior to almost every other class in the game for any purpose besides running in circles killing low/mid level trash

you have no idea what your talking about

[Sonark]

All I'm getting from this is that Bards and Enchanters play like every other class plays now on Live.

I.e. a lot of hot keys and a lot of things to pay attention to.

[Lhancelot]

TLDR: Bards have to wear themselves out to provide marginal buff utility while providing 0 DPS, no ability to CC at the high end, no ability to charm at the high end, no ability to do much of anything besides sing a lame regen song and talk about how much skill it takes to provide buffs no one actually wants or needs.

rofl Spyder just ruined any chances I will ever pick up a bard again as a mess-around alt. I already hate the finger tapping insanity.

When it's explained as Spyder has done here, there's no reason to ever play a bard.

Carpal Tunnel is real, and when all that work is redundant it's idiotic playing a bard.

Thanks Spyder, for clarifying it.

[Cecily]

I want an epic bard in my rogue groups for Atk song + Atk proc, regen, resists.

[zanderklocke]

I want an epic bard in my rogue groups for Atk song + Atk proc, regen, resists.

In addition to increased Atack song and increased Attack epic proc, they are providing a significant damage shield with both the DS/resist song and McVaxius Rousing Rondo (even more if they swap in sky horn) when in main tank group.

That's why bards are put in the main DPS or tank groups. Resists and mana/hp regen are nice, but the extra Attack and Damage Shield are probably more beneficial in raiding.

[Fasttimes]

I stand corrected then - once Bards get their epics they are essential to any raid forces DPS group so they can add 30 attack power for 3 minutes from Dance of The Blade... Or I guess you could always just get Call of The Predator that has a 1.5 hour duration and adds 40 attack power.

They stack and rondo has +attack which is buffed by epic too.

[Lhancelot]

They stack and rondo has +attack which is buffed by epic too.

http://i.imgur.com/zgfHGll.jpg (http://imgur.com/zgfHGll)

Rondo attack buffed + epic would be amazing.

[Ion Blaze]

As bard this is what I have done:
1) Swarm kited solo & 2) grouped (fast exp grind), 3) charm kited solo & 4) grouped (had no dps in all healer group so I had to be dps), 5) fear kited solo & 6) grouped (can handle most caster mobs this way), 7) snare kited solo & 8) grouped (I snared and held aggro on mobs while melee only group gave dps), 9) aoe mezzed 15+ mobs in Unrest/Crushbone simultaneously when we got trained (we survived and killed them all), 10) provided critical MR/buffs to ToFS group that was getting mezzed and charmed by enchanters on level 2, 11) tanked for guk groups, and 12) single target crowd control now. Ultimately, I have found that as a bard I can group with anyone and make them better. I consistently run groups that don't need tanks or healers because no one takes damage with snare or fear kiting which means fast exp and 0 down time for meditating. I can be healing, tanking, dps, crowd control, buffing, and etc. I don't think an enchanter has the same raw ability.

The enchanter's leg up is that they specialize with their abilities as opposed to a bard. I can't aoe mez anymore at 39 but an enchanter can. I can't provide mana regen on par with an enchanter. I can't charm like an enchanter. And after I hit 51, I lose all charm/cc ability for the most part unlike enchanters.

[Egilmn]

I can't provide mana regen on par with an enchanter.

Depends on how you mean, bard casting cantana and spamming their level 32 mana song which is instant will give far more mana than clarity 2 per given amount of time. If you are not spamming these things then c2 is better, as it is always working for the entire duration.

And after I hit 51, I lose all charm/cc ability for the most part unlike enchanters.

Not sure where you got that idea, mez cap is 55 and your charm cap is 51. Regular enc mezzes are also 55 cap and their charm is 53 cap, although no enchanter wants to use boltran's since it costs too much mana. Allure is 51 cap. Boltran's is only used when necessary.

[Troxx]

I can't provide mana regen on par with an enchanter.

Ummm ... what?

Enchanter:

Clarity2: 11 mana/tick
http://wiki.project1999.com/Clarity_II

Bard:

Cantana of replenishment: 11-12 hp/tick + 12-13 mana/tick
http://wiki.project1999.com/Cantana_of_Replenishment

Cassindra's Chorus of Clarity: 7 mana per 3 second cast
http://wiki.project1999.com/Cassindra%27s_Chorus_of_Clarity

Cantana lasts 18 seconds (3 to cast), giving you theoretically 5 potential casts of the 7 mana per 3/sec cast before the cantana refresh is required. That last theoretical cast is pretty stupid to shoot for, so I never really tried to pump more than 4 cassindra's between cantana refreshes.

Result?

In 18 seconds an enchanter clarity buff gives a caster 33 mana.
In 18 seconds just singing cantana a bard gives a caster 39 mana.
In 18 seconds with cantana + cassindra a bard can give a caster 39 + (7x4) = 67

Full tilt a bard can easily add 22 mana a tick.

[Ion Blaze]

Dang, I thought they didn't stack. Well that is going to drastically change how I play songs in groups now. Does Hymn of restoration also stack with cantana? I'm thinking Cantana, Clarity song, HP Regen, & Haste/ATK buff for standard 4 song twist? What would you recommend? Right now I typically run Clarity, HP Regen, Haste/ATK, and Slow/Snare on mobs.

[skarlorn]

End this thread before any more spaghetti comes out!

[MiRo2]

Cassindra's Chorus of Clarity: 7 mana per 3 second cast
http://wiki.project1999.com/Cassindra%27s_Chorus_of_Clarity

...

Full tilt a bard can easily add 22 mana a tick.

More if the bard has an epic, as it affects the singing component of Chorus.

[Rivera]

This has become a not so subtle "Play Group Bards" ad. Which I completely agree with. Group Bards are fun and very valuable.

[Tecmos Deception]

There are several good videos on twitch or youtube of people playing the classes. You've described about 10% of a bard's, and maybe 20% of an enchanter's abilities. It all boils down to how you want to play your class.

This guy has a few interesting ones (CipherDec):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLzwQRdENv5Xk_pC4MhmGNg

Also Tecmos has some great chanter videos, but it's mostly solo:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkZSPYt5AYEE9Y-_FTW4HZg

-Mcoy

I do have a group video in HS west that is a pretty good example of how busy a chanter can be in a group. I was pulling, CCing, keeping a fully buffed pet charmed, etc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlkD4APxuUY

With cleric and shaman support, a chanter really can just go buck wild outside of the hardest Velious content. Tons of hp, extra mr debuff on pet (charms outlast tash like 1/3 of the time when you've got tash, malo, -mr gear and are charming a low blue), no need to slow stuff (and so a lot of the time you won't even need to be tashing stuff). When your only necessary responsibilities become keeping buffs up, sicing your charm on stuff, and CC... it's slow. But you make an amazing puller in this kind of a situation, since you basically combine the puller and CC roles into one. You feed mobs to your group, timed well, spaced out for easy debuffing and killing, etc etc. Doubling up on TOT and WM when possible (though really WM is superfluous if you have potg or a bard in group) lets you be puller+cc, DPS, buffer and still have mana to waste on random crap like nukes or cripple or yolo gravity fluxes.

[Coriantum]

I will say it all depends on how you play.
Bard and Enchanter are both fun to play.
I never understand why people oppose those two classes.
Put à Bard in a group and you improve all members, put him with an enchanter and you become invulnerable.
Bard haste song and mana song stick with Enchanter Haste and Clarity.
Meaning more 2x more dps.
By the way I just played a group with 3 Bards 2 Enchanter and 1 Necro.
Never had seen a group killing so fast.
Bard song was enough to heal and with 2 charmed pet and Bard dps mobs standed less than 10 sec.

In Fact, playing a Bard switching 3 song is pretty easy and straight looking, but being able to switch 4 is mastering the skill. (5 is a challenge)

Enchanter Need more preparation and understanding of your environment as being a cloth wearer mistake is less forgiving.

If you want survivability and the taste of CC job run Bard.
If you want complexity and more thinking with a lot of risks, play enchanter.

Both are active and none get annoying.
(I would just say that enchanter can do the best jokes in game, illusion, mem blurr and sentinel can give you tons of fun)

[skarlorn]

In Fact, playing a Bard switching 3 song is pretty easy and straight looking, but being able to switch 4 is mastering the skill. (5 is a challenge)

since when a challenge more difficult than mastery?

fucking KEK

also, this guy doesn't realize that bard haste doesn't stack with ENC haste, nor can bards charm monsters above the very low 50s.

[Aalderon Crystafire]

Our level 60 Haste (+10%) actually does stack with both Enchanter haste as well as our other haste songs. It will not break the haste cap, however.

-Worn Haste
-Spell/Song Haste
-V2 Song Haste

[Saludeen]

I mastered the bard class and it depends entirely on the player.

A bad bard can twist 2 buffs and do nothing but that or maybe melee.

A good bard can twist 3, switch instruments, and melee.

A great bard can twist 3 of the correct buffs even during downtime (mana regen, hp regen + 2x mana twitch - 4 songs total), mez or snare and even kite if they have to while keeping a mob charmed, attacking, and switching instruments and meleeing. Controlling your pet is also important like keeping it parked away from you and timing your break / recharm perfectly, but it all requires hotkeys. Its hard to imagine but its what I used to do in groups.

So if you're good at micro you can be a great bard and have lots of fun. Can't charm or mez in raids though.

Also, if you play a bard make macros for your abilities with /stopsong and /cast 1. That way you only have to press it once instead of double tap.

[Triiz]

since when a challenge more difficult than mastery?

fucking KEK

also, this guy doesn't realize that bard haste doesn't stack with ENC haste, nor can bards charm monsters above the very low 50s.

Bard can charm up to 51, Enchanters can only charm up to 53 unless they are using level 60 Dictate with a fixed 48 second duration for 750 mana and a 5 minute recast.

It's not really the max charm level difference that makes Enchanter charm so much more powerful since it's not practical at all to use Dictate in 99% of scenarios. Enchanter with a lvl 48-49 pet would still be a lot more powerful than a bard with a 51 pet.

[Rivera]

Lots of non-Bards arguing with Bards about how the Bard class works in this thread.

Lol.

[Arkanjil]

This has been an interesting read....I love both classes, but BARD for life. Each has their place depending on the situation. As a bard, I always enjoy joining a group and cranking the efficiency up to 10. It feels like the world speeds up and the game quickens on the bard...I love it!

I'm a fan of both classes and each has their place. Can't live without the enc class...bards are nice but not always needed. They compliment each other well though!

[Troxx]

Bard charm is really only useful for solo killing and as a secondary means of crowd control. For crowd control it is both superior and inferior to simply mezzing. Properly used it takes a mob out of the equation AND adds their damage potential to the group's output. It's only partially inferior in that you have to wait for charm to break before you can then lock it back down. With mez you can relive prior to mez expiring.

Bard charm should not be compared to enchanter/druid/necro charm - it doesn't last long enough to warrant keeping it around. Buffing it is both pointless and dangerous as it will run loose every 3-4 ticks.

But solo? Lol it's so overpowered. Nothing like making two mobs beat on each other, doubling for 150 a pop while simultaneously twisting 40-50 dps in dots only to target swap and repeat the process on your old pet until both are dead. In the upper 50s that translates to a net dps (2x npc+ dots) of 140-180 sustained dps for the 2 hours it takes you to run out of mana. As charm breaks are exquisitely predictable you just settle into a rhythm without any real risk.

Unlike enchanters, bards have a unique level of power that is really hard to quantify in groups. Enchanter power and role is easily defined. In the roles of CC, haste buffs, and raw damage output (if charming), enchanter is the clear winner. A bard will provide less capability in each of these areas and is always stuck focusing attention on upkeep. If 5 mobs hit camp, group haste and buffs fall away. For the enchanter ... they can focus exclusively on crowd control while their buffs keep pushing the group along.

Bard class really excels only for those that know their song book, pay attention, and get creative. You have to not only know your class inside and out, you need the skill to use the knowledge. Great bards can pull off some insane shit and drop jaws, but an enchanter is generally going to add more total power to a balanced group. For the awkward group? Bards can do a wide enough range of jobs ... from healing to pulling to tanking to crowd control ... they can fill the gap for groups that aren't perfectly built to make the awkward not only viable but capable.

I've got a good lute - that's 42 stackable hp per tick regen (almost 3x fungi) along with 12 mana regen to all 6 members with just 2 songs.

Not that it's worth doing, but it is possible to maintain >70 dps in rolling dots (aoe and single target stacked) at 60 if focusing on nothing else. Not great, but capable.

Ench > bard in filling the role groups are usually seeking.
Bard situationally > ench in supporting the awkward group
Ench > bard for indoor, high level, or challenging solo
Bard >= ench for outdoor charm solo (kill speed, safety margin, mobility, down time) if played well.
Ench > bard for dps
Bard > ench for raw mana regen
Ench >>> bard in terms of ease to play
Ench >>>>>> bad bard in all areas

[Jimjam]

Adding to your point for charm as CC, with something I have seen some bards do: Charm can be used to CC two mobs at once, and add both of their dps in favour of the group by pitting the first mob needing cc against the second (this happens while the group kills a third mob).

Note that bard is also far better at (circle) kite CCing than enc. Again, something I rarely see used but effective when done properly.

[Legidias]

And in a raid or group situation where the puller gets just waaaay too many mobs, no one else in the game can hold down AE aggro and not die instantly like a bard. Rangers can weaponshield but cant grab aggro of so many mobs. Chanters could grab aggro with ae stun, but with higher lvl mobs they can resist and then chew up an enchanter.

This shouldnt happen really in a controlled pull, but sometimes mistakes happen. A monk or whoever pulls 15+ mobs that a raid or group cant handle. Clerics need to camp out but mobs would probably target sitters. Pop ae aggro song / dodge disc and now you have an extra 10 second buffer for clerics to camp and other people to aggro or CC freely. The best part is that it doesnt matter even if song is resisted or not, you'll still pull aggro over any healing or sitting.

[Triiz]

Bard >= ench for outdoor charm solo (kill speed, safety margin, mobility, down time) if played well.


Bard charm soloing is definitely faster 1 mob vs 1 mob outdoors because of dots, but where an Enchanter really excels is having 2-4 mobs beating on their pet, killing pet with a lower level nuke, then recharming one of those 2-4 mobs and repeating. Granted, it's a lot easier to do in places like HS where mobs are bunched together, but it's doable in outdoor zones like DL as well.

While bard can go the solid 2+ hours without any downtime while charming, the 45+ minutes at the end of that it takes to regen all that mana at 2mana per tick sitting is just brutal if you're not in a zone that you can safely start travel song or hide, AFK, and walk away.

By far my least favorite part of leveling a bard 50-60 mostly charming was the super slow mana regen. It's a shame mana songs don't work on bards, would be so OP.

[Peacocky]

Bard hand down all the way. Did you ask for the most active class?, look no further. I know Enchanter inside-out with blindfold, played three times and one on Rallo Zek pvp and used to exploit every nook and cranny before many nerfed. Enchanter is a great class of it own.

Enchanter can be buff outside of group whereas a bard cannot so it is a great bonus plus for a group with additional buff within. I also played as a monk and would not want a group without a bard especially who can sing 4 songs at a time.

Also there is no song macro on p99 and those who are lazy bums with weak wrist should stay away from bard.

Amen.

[pogs4ever]

bards are way better at fte on many encounters. An entire separate set of skills there.

[Pyrocat]

The most fun though in chanters is playing with agro, if you pay attention, you can get it down so good that you can mess with a group or raid and get away with it. A couple of examples, Dragon Necropolis with a raid going down the cave I think, haven't done on p99, sitting and standing moves the mob just a few feet. I always warned my cleric of course what I was doing, made a little funny most of the mobs were easy enough. 2nd example in Kael, I would tell my cleric ahead of time I was going for agro and was summoned 4 times by the big guys on a regular basis, most people didn't mind and they knew if I was there it would probably happen. There are a lot of things that enchanters do but you must always know and understand agro, how to achieve, back off and just have fun with it.

Thats my thoughts, I haven't played bard past mid 30's so not really sure.

wat