What were devs thinking when they made Monks?

[Trelaboon]

First, let me say that I have a 60 Monk and he's among my favorite characters I've ever played. That being said, they kinda baffle me. I have a 60 Warrior and a 60 Monk, and I recently made a Paladin of whom is level 53 at the moment. I can honestly say, short of burning evasive on my Warrior, the Monk can tank as well or better than either of my tank classes. I got a little curious just to see how different their defensive skill caps are and am just a little amazed by how much better they are defensively than the other tank classes. Granted they don't have quite as much AC, but that doesn't really even matter.

I know they are technically not the most OP class in the game, and to be fair I sort of wondered what the devs were thinking when they made classes like Shaman as well, but it's a little less weird than the Monk scenario.

Monks Warrior. Paladin

Defense (252). (252) (252)
Dodge (230). (175). (155)
Parry. (---). (230). (200)
Block. (225). (---). (---)
Riposte. (225). (225). (200)

Basically Monks trade Parry for Block, and then have a much higher Dodge skill cap than Warriors. While from a roleplay perspective, this makes sense, from a game mechanic perspective it sort of doesn't. The slight AC difference just doesn't seem to make up for the fact that Monks have higher defensive skill caps and a 30% mana free, fairly short cooldown self heal. To me it just seems crazy that during live they would have made a class that was so tanky while still being pretty damn good DPS. I'm also a little drunk and bored so this post may just be a product of that. Either way.....Classic EQ is a mysterious game sometimes.

[Jimjam]

Monks had really terrible equipment options in vanilla, this was basically their point of balance to offset their awesome skills.

Come Kunark they had lots of amazing weapon options, then on top of that by velious they could even hit worn AC cap.

[Samoht]

Good thing we don't get AA's on this server. Iksar + Monk + Fungi + TStaff + AA's = god mode at level 60.

[loramin]

While this isn't my area of expertise (and I mostly agree with you), obviously Warriors and knights have a very real advantage when tanking harder (eg. raid) mobs.

As for Shaman, my theory is that they overcompensated for the fact that Shaman can't rez (even though they're the Barbarian/Ogre/Troll equivalent of a Cleric), and to make up for it they gave Shaman too much other stuff. Either that or the devs were creating the world's first game of it's kind and just weren't able to balance 14 classes perfectly ... but I like to think it's because they wanted us to kick ass :D

[Trelaboon]

While this isn't my area of expertise, I think you might not be considering more serious mobs. I would imagine that in many camps, and certainly on raids, there is a very noticeable difference in a Monk's vs. a Warrior's/Knight's ability to tank.

Well like I said, I'm not counting disciplines. Obviously only a Warrior can really tank the big stuff. I'm more referring to the normal 6 man group scenarios, since, especially on live that's the majority of what people did. I'd say in six man or raids though Paladin and Sk were just sort of meh

[loramin]

Well like I said, I'm not counting disciplines.

My mistake, I missed that part.

[Jimjam]

I don't really think balance was very high on the list of priorities. They more wanted to create cohesive archetypes initially and as expansions came out the design philosophy shifted.

[Dreenk317]

While this isn't my area of expertise (and I mostly agree with you), obviously Warriors and knights have a very real advantage when tanking harder (eg. raid) mobs.

As for Shaman, my theory is that they overcompensated for the fact that Shaman can't rez (even though they're the Barbarian/Ogre/Troll equivalent of a Cleric), and to make up for it they gave Shaman too much other stuff. Either that or the devs were creating the world's first game of it's kind and just weren't able to balance 14 classes perfectly ... but I like to think it's because they wanted us to kick ass :D

They decided they needed a primary buffing class. Then went through and looked at all the stats and various buffs they had in game. Can't really not give your primary buffer hp/AC buffs, even if other classes have em, same with stat buffs. Then, since you have a primary healer, you can't give them CH, so they gave them slows and debuffs, with debuffs and shaman lore, come poisons and cures/heals.

What I'm really wondering is wtf they were thinking with beastlord. All the joys of a shaman, with a legitimately tanky pet....

[Foxplay]

Pretty sure their goal was a well rounded, more self sufficient fighter but pays for it by having to abide by a more narrow gear selection and a weight limit (or incur armor class penalty).

Both of these inconviences where made very easy and pretty negligible come later expansions.

Kunark and Velious and later expansions made gear selection for monk a breeze

Even by just Velious a lot of raid gear has 0.1 wt or even less making their weight limit really easy to achieve with just a couple 100% weight reduction bags

In the end, yes Classic EQ and some of their "balance" or... well lack there of balance decisions are a curious beast. I like the idea of monks having to focus on light weight gear and having the high (avoidance), I think they just turned their back on the whole "Penalties" idea with gearing as the game progressed

[Baler]

Monks were OP in dungeons and dragons.
No shocker that it was op in Everquest.

They had the same save tables as a thief.
Hense the amazing defensive skill caps in EQ.

They got additional attack for martial arts.
Hense the amazing offensive skill caps in EQ.

They had limitations on weight with food/coin.
Hense the weight limits in EQ.

The list goes on and on.

[branamil]

Monks had really terrible equipment options in vanilla, this was basically their point of balance to offset their awesome skills.

Come Kunark they had lots of amazing weapon options, then on top of that by velious they could even hit worn AC cap.

Yeah, this pretty much. The devs thought it would be cool for a class to shun armor and weapons. That's why the put in the weight limit.

Later after monks complained they had nothing to look forward to, devs realized that item upgrades were 99% of the motivation to play an MMORPG. So they itemized monks but the philosophy that they should be effective naked was baked into the class already

[skarlorn]

pretty cool thread, i'll admit.

I always wondered why Wu's armor was such garbage. I love this idea the devs set out to make, but can see why it totally sucked in EQ. The sad thing is it turned a very flavorful class into a boring, overpowered melee machine that competes with rogue DPS and warrior tanking with a more efficient instaheal mechanic than the paladin and superior FD to the shadowknight. Very yawn.

[Sorn]

I always wondered why Wu's armor was such garbage.

Other monks may call my wu's fighting pantaloons garbage but my monk will wear hers forever cuz she's a Master Wu fangirllizard <3 <3 They were hand-made with love!

[skarlorn]

I believe the colloquialism for Wu's Pantaloons is "hot Trash"

[hyejin]

That was my nickname in high school!

[Lhancelot]

you guys convinced me to try a monk. Again. For the 3rd time. Never got past lvl 20 in the past...

[Brut]

Monks were busted in Velious, nothing new. Some dev probably played one considering some of the questionable endgame item choices, such as most melees not getting any earring upgrades, but MNK is randomly slapped on Garzicor ear which is a priest class earring. Or how they just figured they might as well slap fungi regen on what is essentially PD robe for a monk exclusive chest piece, so they don't have to worry about which to wear. Or AoW legs that are prty absurd. Or how basically every item is ALL/ALL 0.0wt so monks don't even have to worry about the weight and can just take all the stuff warriors and such also have as their bestinslot.

They nerfed monks hard in Luclin, as they damn well deserved. Since we probably never have to tolerate moon kittie expansion here, monk supremecy reigns forever. Is why everyone and their grandma's third cat has an iksar monk littering their char select.

[fadetree]

Ahem, Rangers. They got nerfed to death BEFORE the game went live. They were 'too OP'. They missed that part about Monks, apparently.

[Sonark]

Basically Monks trade Parry for Block, and then have a much higher Dodge skill cap than Warriors. While from a roleplay perspective, this makes sense, from a game mechanic perspective it sort of doesn't. The slight AC difference just doesn't seem to make up for the fact that Monks have higher defensive skill caps and a 30% mana free, fairly short cooldown self heal. To me it just seems crazy that during live they would have made a class that was so tanky while still being pretty damn good DPS. I'm also a little drunk and bored so this post may just be a product of that. Either way.....Classic EQ is a mysterious game sometimes.I think I remember reading somewhere that Block is also a better skill than Parry, and not just being renamed versions of the same thing.

[Kesselring]

you guys convinced me to try a monk. Again. For the 3rd time. Never got past lvl 20 in the past...

theyre kind of an active class, where an active monk can make exp really fast in a group. Same with an active enchanter. But if you are a lazy player and like sitting around then youre more of a hinderance to the group than anything. As far as soloing theyre nice because they can solo at their own speed, soloing is just boring.

[xtraball]

Other monks may call my wu's fighting pantaloons garbage but my monk will wear hers forever cuz she's a Master Wu fangirllizard <3 <3 They were hand-made with love!

+1
Monk rule !

[Swish]

if you are a lazy player and like sitting around then youre more of a hinderance to the group than anything.

A monk that won't pull or tries to "brb guys", "afk bio", "need to get a drink", etc... repeatedly to get out of pulling is a piece of trash in my opinion.

The remedy if this keeps happening is for the group leader to say "okay" and drop them from the group, have someone else pull...and send him a tell saying to pst for an invite when he's back. It might sound harsh but it fixes up the slackers or makes them move on.

They know who they are, and there's more than a few out there :p

[Fragged]

I think I remember reading somewhere that Block is also a better skill than Parry, and not just being renamed versions of the same thing.

I read that as well, the tests showed that it was about 3 times as effective. Mind you this is just going off memory.

[Ravager]

A monk that won't pull or tries to "brb guys", "afk bio", "need to get a drink", etc... repeatedly to get out of pulling is a piece of trash in my opinion.

So... someone who doesn't constantly work to level your alts while you sit in one place is a piece of trash? Aren't we entitled.

[Baler]

My bet is still on Dungeons and Dragons monks.

[Cecily]

So... someone who doesn't constantly work to level your alts while you sit in one place is a piece of trash? Aren't we entitled.

Basically. Didn't invite them to DPS.

[Troxx]

A monk that won't pull or tries to "brb guys", "afk bio", "need to get a drink", etc... repeatedly to get out of pulling is a piece of trash in my opinion.

And for every other player who needs to brb, afk, or get a drink?

[Lhancelot]

A monk that won't pull or tries to "brb guys", "afk bio", "need to get a drink", etc... repeatedly to get out of pulling is a piece of trash in my opinion.


This goes with any class being played by someone that doesn't try to perform at an appropriate level of effort.

Of course, this is subjective. What one person considers lazy another might consider normal.

I also wouldn't call someone "trash" because they don't perform at a level I feel is correct. I just view these types of players as typical, tbh.

Speaking on busy classes... Honestly I stopped playing a bard because I felt like I was doing ALL the work, with very little appreciation. I had made it to grouping finally, and had a large array of songs to use.

My problem was I seen "typical" players in all my groups. The ones that put about 50% or less effort into playing, while I was AE mezzing, single mezzing, pulling, TANKING, and then managing songs of people's choice when they were not happy with what I was twisting. It took about a week of this for me to decide people on this game are not worth carpal tunnel syndrome.

I don't think any class has anything on a bard when it comes to being busy. Including chanters. I can play chanter fine, manage a pet, CC, solo charm kill, etc. Bard is far busier.

My point is, I can't see monk being busier than a bard, or a chanter for that matter.

[Ravager]

Just seems a bit dickish to label someone else trash when they don't meet your standards.

[Lhancelot]

Just seems a bit dickish to label someone else trash when they don't meet your standards.

haha Ravager, I beat you to it.

I wouldn't call someone trash either, for not being as proficient as I think they should be on the game.

Unless they were an ass. Then, I would probably call them trash.

But, that would be due to their attitude not their proficiency levels on p99 EQ toons.

[xtraball]

My point is, I can't see monk being busier than a bard, or a chanter for that matter.

Maybe not, but pulling and tanking efficiently is already something, don't you think ?

[Cecily]

Just seems a bit dickish to label someone else trash when they don't meet your standards.

I don't care for it as a word to describe people, not in my vocabulary, but yeah shitty monks...

[Lhancelot]

Maybe not, but pulling and tanking efficiently is already something, don't you think ?

I aint saying the monk class is simplistic, I am just saying that to me it appears less busy than bard and enchanter.

I have pulled and tanked on pallies, warriors, rogues, etc. Pulling and tanking doesn't hold a candle to what a bard does.

[xtraball]

I aint saying the monk class is simplistic, I am just saying that to me it appears less busy than bard and enchanter.

I ain't sayin' monks are busier than bard either.

[Jimjam]

If you want constant breaks for snacks and so on a hobbit or perhaps ogre may fit your play style better.

[xtraball]

I get it !! I'm playing a monk because I'm damn lazy.. :D

[Raavak]

Monks were busted in Velious, nothing new.

...

They nerfed monks hard in Luclin, as they damn well deserved. Since we probably never have to tolerate moon kittie expansion here, monk supremecy reigns forever. Is why everyone and their grandma's third cat has an iksar monk littering their char select.

I thought I've heard that on Live during the tail end of Velious some guilds were using well-equipped monks to tank NToV. Their skill mostly is with not getting hit, and with SoD's and such hold aggro well. I'd think some unlucky "rolls" and *splat*. But, they are almost unstoppable.

[aaezil]

A monk that won't pull or tries to "brb guys", "afk bio", "need to get a drink", etc... repeatedly to get out of pulling is a piece of trash in my opinion.

The remedy if this keeps happening is for the group leader to say "okay" and drop them from the group, have someone else pull...and send him a tell saying to pst for an invite when he's back. It might sound harsh but it fixes up the slackers or makes them move on.

They know who they are, and there's more than a few out there :p

Wow so swish is a total douche on the forums AND in game? Suspicions confirmed.

[Lhancelot]

I get it !! I'm playing a monk because I'm damn lazy.. :D

Stop being self-deprecating. It's unbecoming. :D

Hey on my baby monk I just made, I am DWing wu trance sticks, because they look awesome! When do these become bad, I mean how long could I weild these cool looking sticks of beatdown before they start to turn out bad damage compared to the twink warriors and rogues I will be running with?

[Legidias]

Just seems a bit dickish to label someone else trash when they don't meet your standards.

But I totally do this in real life, except I dont use the term trash. Instead I call them ex-employees.

[xtraball]

Hey on my baby monk I just made, I am DWing wu trance sticks, because they look awesome! When do these become bad, I mean how long could I weild these cool looking sticks of beatdown before they start to turn out bad damage compared to the twink warriors and rogues I will be running with?

What, you want to kick ass and look uncool ?? :confused:

[Jimjam]

I thought I've heard that on Live during the tail end of Velious some guilds were using well-equipped monks to tank NToV. Their skill mostly is with not getting hit, and with SoD's and such hold aggro well. I'd think some unlucky "rolls" and *splat*. But, they are almost unstoppable.

Considering they had the same defence skills as warrior, and they were subject to the same worn ac cap in velious, they mitigated just as well... The only draw back was having above average hp instead of best hp :P.

[Axlrose]

To return to the original intention of the original poster, similar to what were developers thinking when they created monks, but did they intend for bards to "twist" their songs? I have always heard it was discovered by accident that playing three songs (or more) was not the intention.

[Raavak]

Tbh, I've always thought it was strange there were monks in AD&D and then in Everquest. When I think "monk" in the sense of heavy armor and longswords theme sort of like dark ages Euro, I think a cleric-type in a brown robe. Not a Shaolin monk and master in gung fu.

I should see if Gary Gygax or one of his accomplices ever wrote anything defending the class.

And as far as why Verant/Smedley/McQuaid included it from the beginning... who knows. I would guess an AD&D influence. I know Diku MUDs were an influence on EQ and Brad, but I never played a MUD that had a monk class.

[pasi]

From my perspective (long post):

Monks weren't great in classic. In general, melee weren't great in classic. Unlike here, you can pretty much ignore most PoSky sky itemization for the duration of live. Monk are a low/middle tier class.

Kunark was the initial attempt to bring melee in-line with casters. Weaponry makes probably the largest jump - monks especially benefit from this. However, Kunark was short-lived. Most hardcore players were not even 60, and the higher end spells were very rare. Epics were a rarity outside of Ragebringer, Celestial Fists, and Fiery Defender. At this point, no one figured out the myriad of ways to blow past the bottleneck shaman epic spawns. Monks are a medium/high tier class.

Velious was their first expansion without increasing the level cap. For the most part, casters don't scale well with gear, they rely on spells (and later mechanics such as AA and focus effects). Overall, the new spells were either utility or weak. This was really their first expansion developed specifically for raiding.

With Velious, a lot of gear ends up being all/all with absurdly high AC. At the time of launch, they probably did not care much about AC values as the AC hardcap was easily reachable on plate classes (not so much monks). Monks already had a fantastic combat skills tables for avoiding damage. You could counter-argue that gear got buffed as the expansion went along, but look at the AC on those items. Monks get a huge itemization buff as they introduce the primal/priceless weapon trader and fist of lightning (Fist of Nature should not be in the game until Luclin). For whatever reason, the developers were reluctant to greatly buff rogue top-end damage. My speculation is that is due to the strength and ubiquity of ragebringer. Rogues still make great strides in weaponry, but not nearly the same gains as monks. Monks also benefit from 2hander combat-tables and receiving triple attack. Monks are a top-tier class.

Monks are very strong coming out the gate in Luclin. Monk primal fists are relatively much stronger than other primal weapons (15/20 vs 13/20). This becomes less of a factor in Luclin as players obtain Vengeance gear (primal's ATK counted toward the ATK cap). Rogue Weaponry caught up and added things like backstab mods. The two big monk weapon upgrades were Vyzdra Fangs and Caens. Other than that, there wasn't a ton of great, new weaponry introduced for monks. My opinion is that they either over-budgeted the procs on the shiny new HtH weapons or that they feared giving BSTs insane weaponry. Fist of Acrylia was nerfed right out the gate. The only other upgrade was on XtC. Cursed and XtC have insanely large loot-tables. It was much easier to just get a Caen's and farm yourself a GCB.

Meanwhile, casters make great strides with focus effects, horses, AAs and new spells (and the fact that raid mobs have INSANE AC). Rangers get AM3/EQ which narrows the gap some. CHeal takes a nerf and the (essentially) AC-hardcap gets changed to a softcap which brings purpose to plate-armor again. All the while, warriors complain and get monk mitigation nerfed. Monks remained mid/high tier, but started to fall off as the expansion progressed.

PoP/LDoN is when monks significantly decline.
If monks hadn't lost their pulling role already to SKs, they definitely have to bards w/ FM. In exp groups, the new lull spells were a huge improvement to previous spells and defeated the need for a puller.

PoP toned down raid-mob AC which did benefit melee - just not enough to compete w/ castes.

A ton of fights in zones with charmable mobs meant that enchanter DPS was back on the menu if needed. Concussion Pants initially let wizards clown other classes.
Rogues got very large weaponry upgrades w/ Ifir, DoD, and JTFB. Necro became top-dogs when they shortened DoT duration and changed Extended Affliction to Burning Affliction. The implementation of LDoN curse spells only expanded this gap. Shaman got to piggyback on the DoT changes (and their LDoN curse). Shaman just lacked a (re-usable) way to drop aggro, but could arguably take the #2 spot if a tank was geared enough. Monks were a mid-tier DPS class and worse than necros, SKs, and bards at pulling. Low/Mid Tier class.

Even after the Luclin AC nerfs, monks still avoided melee damage better than knights (lol), but could not reliably hold aggro. If you compare monks to knights, I'm sure they look overpowered, but knights needed double-digit expansions before they graduated from trash.

Long Post.
TLDR: Velious is the sweet spot for monks. Monk dominance is transient. This server is capped at Velious.

[Alanus]

Even after the Luclin AC nerfs, monks still avoided melee damage better than knights (lol), but could not reliably hold aggro. If you compare monks to knights, I'm sure they look overpowered, but knights needed double-digit expansions before they graduated from trash.


Well equipped paladins (elemental/time gear) during PoP were pretty powerful. Obviously didn't have the DPS of monks, but no other class could solo Venril Sathir and Kunark dragons. I even used to 2-box regruas in powater with a shaman.

[Damn]

What, you want to kick ass and look uncool ?? :confused:

Yes Yes indeed

[Raavak]

Well equipped paladins (elemental/time gear) during PoP were pretty powerful. Obviously didn't have the DPS of monks, but no other class could solo Venril Sathir and Kunark dragons. I even used to 2-box regruas in powater with a shaman.I think that one pally named Alanus that did that stuff was a cheater.

[Rygar]

From my perspective (long post):

Monks weren't great in classic. In general, melee weren't great in classic. Unlike here, you can pretty much ignore most PoSky sky itemization for the duration of live. Monk are a low/middle tier class.

Kunark was the initial attempt to bring melee in-line with casters. Weaponry makes probably the largest jump - monks especially benefit from this. However, Kunark was short-lived. Most hardcore players were not even 60, and the higher end spells were very rare. Epics were a rarity outside of Ragebringer, Celestial Fists, and Fiery Defender. At this point, no one figured out the myriad of ways to blow past the bottleneck shaman epic spawns. Monks are a medium/high tier class.

Velious was their first expansion without increasing the level cap. For the most part, casters don't scale well with gear, they rely on spells (and later mechanics such as AA and focus effects). Overall, the new spells were either utility or weak. This was really their first expansion developed specifically for raiding.

With Velious, a lot of gear ends up being all/all with absurdly high AC. At the time of launch, they probably did not care much about AC values as the AC hardcap was easily reachable on plate classes (not so much monks). Monks already had a fantastic combat skills tables for avoiding damage. You could counter-argue that gear got buffed as the expansion went along, but look at the AC on those items. Monks get a huge itemization buff as they introduce the primal/priceless weapon trader and fist of lightning (Fist of Nature should not be in the game until Luclin). For whatever reason, the developers were reluctant to greatly buff rogue top-end damage. My speculation is that is due to the strength and ubiquity of ragebringer. Rogues still make great strides in weaponry, but not nearly the same gains as monks. Monks also benefit from 2hander combat-tables and receiving triple attack. Monks are a top-tier class.

Monks are very strong coming out the gate in Luclin. Monk primal fists are relatively much stronger than other primal weapons (15/20 vs 13/20). This becomes less of a factor in Luclin as players obtain Vengeance gear (primal's ATK counted toward the ATK cap). Rogue Weaponry caught up and added things like backstab mods. The two big monk weapon upgrades were Vyzdra Fangs and Caens. Other than that, there wasn't a ton of great, new weaponry introduced for monks. My opinion is that they either over-budgeted the procs on the shiny new HtH weapons or that they feared giving BSTs insane weaponry. Fist of Acrylia was nerfed right out the gate. The only other upgrade was on XtC. Cursed and XtC have insanely large loot-tables. It was much easier to just get a Caen's and farm yourself a GCB.

Meanwhile, casters make great strides with focus effects, horses, AAs and new spells (and the fact that raid mobs have INSANE AC). Rangers get AM3/EQ which narrows the gap some. CHeal takes a nerf and the (essentially) AC-hardcap gets changed to a softcap which brings purpose to plate-armor again. All the while, warriors complain and get monk mitigation nerfed. Monks remained mid/high tier, but started to fall off as the expansion progressed.

PoP/LDoN is when monks significantly decline.
If monks hadn't lost their pulling role already to SKs, they definitely have to bards w/ FM. In exp groups, the new lull spells were a huge improvement to previous spells and defeated the need for a puller.

PoP toned down raid-mob AC which did benefit melee - just not enough to compete w/ castes.

A ton of fights in zones with charmable mobs meant that enchanter DPS was back on the menu if needed. Concussion Pants initially let wizards clown other classes.
Rogues got very large weaponry upgrades w/ Ifir, DoD, and JTFB. Necro became top-dogs when they shortened DoT duration and changed Extended Affliction to Burning Affliction. The implementation of LDoN curse spells only expanded this gap. Shaman got to piggyback on the DoT changes (and their LDoN curse). Shaman just lacked a (re-usable) way to drop aggro, but could arguably take the #2 spot if a tank was geared enough. Monks were a mid-tier DPS class and worse than necros, SKs, and bards at pulling. Low/Mid Tier class.

Even after the Luclin AC nerfs, monks still avoided melee damage better than knights (lol), but could not reliably hold aggro. If you compare monks to knights, I'm sure they look overpowered, but knights needed double-digit expansions before they graduated from trash.

Long Post.
TLDR: Velious is the sweet spot for monks. Monk dominance is transient. This server is capped at Velious.

So many acronyms! And no idea what those items are or stand for, too lazy to look it up.

I agree that Kunark really seemed to jump the shark with weaponry for all classes. Having a 2H weapon in vanilla that was a 2:1 ratio was like the gold standard, I seem to remember 3:1 being the gold for 1h weapons (like 8/24 Short Sword of the Ykesha). Then trash drops like 30/40 2Hers, insanity monk weapons (23/28 on wu's was ridiculous in itself, nevermind 28/30, 29/30 + 100DD stun). The new 1h standard was like 2:1 or close to it.

I really question if Verant was making crazy itemization for melee just for making money (i.e. you cannot compete without Kunark, so buy it today). I think by the time Velious hit they realized their err and tried to correct it but it was too late. I wish they didn't go so crazy in Kunark and make almost all classic weapons obsolete instantly (Is there even a relative weapon left from Classic to Kunark? Maybe Mithril 2her since haste was harder to come by, or maybe Ghoulbane for twinking.

[Daldaen]

I agree mostly with what Pasi said.

Luclin/PoP brought monks back down to earth, and brought most other classes up to where they should be.

Need Luclin and PoP. They make servers far better.

[Evia]

I agree mostly with what Pasi said.

Luclin/PoP brought monks back down to earth, and brought most other classes up to where they should be.

Need Luclin and PoP. They make servers far better.



Consider Agnarr

[Baler]

oh Daldaen.. How the mighty have fallen.

You've ruined your own lands...

[Lhancelot]

Consider Agnarr

Tried Agnarr, lasted 6 days. I struggle to even call that game Everquest, it's so altered and defiled now. :(

[mcoy]

I made it about 2 hours. Saw people selling stuff for krono, then realized I could buy stuff from marketplace with "cash" I had "earned" by being subscribed for a while. I mean seriously, a 40 slot bag? Pfft! Plus I hate the revamped freeport (didn't leave wfp). Camped out and didn't look back.

-Mcoy

[Alanus]

I think that one pally named Alanus that did that stuff was a cheater.

Haha, you need to log in one of these days!

[Lhancelot]

Haha, you need to log in one of these days!

Whenever I see Alanus' name, I have a hard time not focusing on the last four letters of his name. Anyone else have this problem?

[Ennewi]

Whenever I see Alanus' name, I have a hard time not focusing on the last four letters of his name. Anyone else have this problem?

Not until you said something. Couldn't help but notice the in-game equivalent though.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Analya

[Dolalin]

Easy way to balance monks would have been for their evasion to be top notch, but each successful evade uses up endurance. Once they run out they lose their evasion.

Would result in tank classes being the best choice for sustained tanking (mitigation wouldn't use end), but wouldn't impact monks much for soloing and pulling.

[Atmas]

Monks on live at this point were pretty much at their peak. Velious was a melee expansion for sure and devs I think had a hard-on for them as almost all the high end encounters seem to have an awesome dedicated item. Devs on live took a look at their mitigation and nerfed them pretty significantly.

Monk damage avoidance is amplified on this server where mobs hit on the high end way too consistently. Avoiding a hit has tremendous benefits on this sever. A well geared monk can tank a lot of high end stuff but not to the point of a warrior because the real high end stuff has crazy attack and the potential for one or two bad rounds to take them out gets high.

As far as monks versus other tanks there are obvious trade offs and it gets a little more complicated when knowledge of mechanics are applied. For example, monks are great dps, but a warrior in beserking with a good weapon and the right disc can do phenomenal dps. As a Paladin main there are a lot of benefits monks have that I don't but the same is true the other way around. I'm too lazy to rehash all the discussions that have already come through about the benefits of healing or the efficiency of healing in a group with true snap agro control.

[Kalamurv]

I wish I could find the post from the devs back in the day, but I do remember them stating that monks were supposed to be a DPS class, not a pulling class. FD for monks and necros were in game for the purpose of shedding aggro, like a rogues evade, a rangers jolt, wizzys concussion etc. The ability to split mobs with FD was completely unintended, druids with harmony, bards lull, enchanters pacify etc were the original intended pulling methods.

[liquidki]

Yeah, looking at the wiki all the velious equipment jumps to the top of the dmg/AC charts. To be fair I don't know how you solve the problem of mudflation while increasing level caps and putting out new and more powerful items which of course are needed for the more powerful monsters. But how do you prevent those uber items from massively devaluing everything that came before? I dunno if there is a solution to that.

[fastboy21]

You're forgetting that tanking isn't just about getting hit...you need aggro abilities. Most monks aren't going to snap aggro back the way taunt or casting can.

In a group setting, over a long haul, having a warrior that needs more healing is preferable to a monk without the ability to reliably hold and snap aggro. Not only is it less efficient (exp/hour), but it is also a lot more stressful on a grinding group if mobs are bouncing around.

If you get multiple mobs without CC the monk has basically no chance to hold aggro on them all.

Also remember that the balance you're speaking of is largely gear driven for a monk. A monk in era appropriate gear (from live) wasn't going to out tank a warrior even in an exp grp. Every monk on the server didn't have a t-staff, fungi, epic, full suit of black panther at lvl 1, hp rings, etc.

[fastboy21]

Yeah, looking at the wiki all the velious equipment jumps to the top of the dmg/AC charts. To be fair I don't know how you solve the problem of mudflation while increasing level caps and putting out new and more powerful items which of course are needed for the more powerful monsters. But how do you prevent those uber items from massively devaluing everything that came before? I dunno if there is a solution to that.

Its hard...and part of the problem is that games generally don't worry about this issue because most MMOs aren't going to last 20 years. Even when EQ was a booming success I doubt the devs would have thought it was going to continue the way it did.

You can do lots of itemization things to slow it down though:

1. Limit direct upgrades. Make gear situational, so that every expansion doesn't see you dropping your old Top Tier class armor for new Top Tier class armor.

2. You deepen existing content instead of replacing it with new content. Add augments, modification items.

3. You create utility items that are not replacements of old items.

This keeps the old stuff needed AND makes the new stuff needed. Folks will do jboots...a newbie vanilla quest, for example, from launch until the day p99 goes black. It never goes away. What other game would a max lvl character 5 expansions into the MMO still have "newbie" gear on them that they NEED? EQ is really the only one I've ever played that does that. Jboots is only one example.

Once you start walking down the path of each expansion adds 30% difficulty, so top gear needs to improve by 30% you are moving down the path to problems. One of the reasons why classic EQ was so fun is that Velious and Kunark didn't make the old world useless. Even through Luclin and PoP there were good reasons to revisit the old world zones, and the content wasn't totally obsolete yet.