MMOs: Past, Present, and Future

[That Deadeye Guy]

Hey folks,

Well the description for Server Chat is "General discussion related to Project 1999 and classic Everquest", so I figured it'd try to spur some discussion regarding a video I just made about MMOs and the genre itself. I mention Project 1999 / EverQuest pretty extensively and would love feedback and discussion regarding where the soul of particular style of game is heading.

https://youtu.be/5B_SvqtcUfQ

[That Deadeye Guy]

Hey, even Brad McQuaid stopped by to leave a comment!

[Evia]

I enjoyed the video! Thanks for sharing!

[One Tin Soldier]

My belief is that both Camelot unchained and Crowfall have already failed by being PvP focused MMOs. Not that I personally have anything against PvP but it just never works well for MMOs.

As for Pantheon, it's basically project 99 with a subscription fee. Look at the population here. Now imagine what it would be if they started charging a subscription fee. Yeah, that's the kind of population Pantheon can look forward to. Maybe not right away but after the honeymoon period is over.

[Lhancelot]

Nice video thanks for posting it here. I hope pantheon is a successful and fun game. :)

[loramin]

You can already tell by how they're prioritizing the most ridiculous and unimportant things that socialites and members of their forums are asking for such as to ensure there's a female version of all races

Wait, so you think the way for Pantheon to succeed is to exclude half their possible player-base? I mean admittedly there are more male gamers than females, but then a good chunk of male gamers like female avatars, so half seems about right.

The other nail in the coffin will be itemization ... you'll get things like "Stack of Minor Illusion Flasks"

Wait, you think the "other nail" in Pantheon's coffin is that they have illusion potions, ie. completely meaningless flavor items, ie. the exact same thing as illusion masks on EverQuest, only not permanent? That is what you think will doom Pantheon?

[skarlorn]

Wait, so you think the way for Pantheon to succeed is to exclude half their possible player-base? I mean admittedly there are more male gamers than females, but then a good chunk of male gamers like female avatars, so half seems about right.



Wait, you think the "other nail" in Pantheon's coffin is that they have illusion potions, ie. completely meaningless flavor items, ie. the exact same thing as illusion masks on EverQuest, only not permanent? That is what you think will doom Pantheon?

[Lojik]

Will the sequel be Fall of the Risen?

[Ennewi]

Feel of the Raisin? (https://ggia.berkeley.edu/practice/raisin_meditation#data-tab-how)

[wittles]

My belief is that both Camelot unchained and Crowfall have already failed by being PvP focused MMOs. Not that I personally have anything against PvP but it just never works well for MMOs.

As for Pantheon, it's basically project 99 with a subscription fee. Look at the population here. Now imagine what it would be if they started charging a subscription fee. Yeah, that's the kind of population Pantheon can look forward to. Maybe not right away but after the honeymoon period is over.

I think pvp mmo's can work if they are implemented like EVE does theirs. Otherwise, I agree that it will just die.

[Foxplay]

I think pvp mmo's can work if they are implemented like EVE does theirs. Otherwise, I agree that it will just die.

Played Warhammer Online. Can confirm, any PVP mmo that rewards gear advantage for winning = Doomed as fuck. You eventually find yourself in completely unwinnable (or unloosable) pvp matches time and time again. The winners will ride said win-train as long as they can until server merges, meanwhile the loosers will re-roll or server xfer to avoid loosing 24/7 (one can hardly blame them)

From personal experience I had a Renown rank 80(max at the time) Choppa with full sovereign gear and a mythic 2handed sword from Tomb of the Vulture lord - Could literally solo 4 to 5 people by myself if they where not adequately geared (which happened a lot cause Destruction was always winning on my first server. The difference between low rank renown gear and high rank renown gear as insanity) Que into scenarios with literally like 1 or 2 friends and any healer that wasn't asleep and we could camp Order right outside their spawn

[kotton05]

Which MMO hasn’t flopped recently?

Until some developer gets away from micro transactions and pay to win with a focus on challenging content that doesn’t revolve around just grinding for ages I won’t be satisfied.

Brad release me from this hell!

[citizen1080]

Which MMO hasn’t flopped recently?

Until some developer gets away from micro transactions and pay to win with a focus on challenging content that doesn’t revolve around just grinding for ages I won’t be satisfied.

Brad release me from this hell!

Not even sure they are trying for sustainability anymore. Seems like they are all short term cash grabs and if it makes money for a few more years, great.

[Decad]

Which MMO hasn’t flopped recently?

Until some developer gets away from micro transactions and pay to win with a focus on challenging content that doesn’t revolve around just grinding for ages I won’t be satisfied.

Brad release me from this hell!

Most MMO nowadays are about short term cash grabs like with Bob said.

Its too mature a market nowadays unlike original EQ and WOW where the market is still new to a certain degree.

Gamers are very fickle minded nowadays and they will quickly move on to the next game upon release

[Ikon]

Gamers are not gamers. EQ succeeded because at the time gamers were hardcore. People didn't mind medding, camping rare mobs for hours or even days, weeks.

As EQ matured more casual gamers began to demand quicker rewards, less downtime etc.

EvE was similar but its also been pushed toward instant gratification with Plex, Skill Injectors etc.

The reason games fail these days is because they're aimed at the casuals. Casuals don't become long term customers they consume and move on.

Games can succeed in the long term like EvE but with a much smaller player base but they need to be aimed at the hardcore and not the casuals however nobody seems interested in longevity except CCP.

I'd be happy to pay a premium for a modern EQ, I had 10 EvE sub's at one point but I'm not holding my breath.

[username17]

I've been avoiding the Pantheon bandwagon as much as I can. Once it's playable I'll try it out. But I imagine Alpha access is paid. Bleh

[Baler]

NWN AoL
Meridian 59
Ultima Online
Everquest
Dark Age of Camelot
Anarchy Online
Eve Online

OP Bias video is bias.

UO brought mmo's to the masses, EQ brought 3D mmo's to the masses.
Furthermore UO showed the industry that the idea of a Mmo was possible in a business sense at the time.

People forget that the number of people playing video games on the computer back then is a fraction of what it is now.

---
And furthermore why Ultima is so great. They practically invented goodies in big box releases. Cloth map, extra manuals, etc
Let's give some respect where respect is due damn it!

[SamwiseRed]

this video doesnt even mention EvE.

[Decad]

NWN AoL
Meridian 59
Ultima Online
Everquest
Dark Age of Camelot
Anarchy Online
Eve Online

OP Bias video is bias.

UO brought mmo's to the masses, EQ brought 3D mmo's to the masses.
Furthermore UO showed the industry that the idea of a Mmo was possible in a business sense at the time.

People forget that the number of people playing video games on the computer back then is a fraction of what it is now.

---
And furthermore why Ultima is so great. They practically invented goodies in big box releases. Cloth map, extra manuals, etc
Let's give some respect where respect is due damn it!

The Realm was not included too. That game with instanced combat was a saviour to bad internet those days

[Baler]

The Realm was not included too. That game with instanced combat was a saviour to bad internet those days

The only reason I didn't include The Realm was because compared to how we know mmo's, it's almost a niche. But yes The Realm deserves a slot in that list. thank you for mentioning it!
After Meridian 59 and before Ultima Online. Granted it didn't quite set as much of a mark on the history of mmos. actually sorry for forgetting it.

[Lhancelot]

As EQ matured more casual gamers began to demand quicker rewards, less downtime etc.


Welcome to the change in people as a whole on planet earth. Everything is instant gratification now thanks to the too-fast evolution of technology in the last 30 years.

We the sheeple have fallen hook line and sinker head first into the technological aftermath and are doomed thanks to it.

Also, games suck now more than ever.

[shokar]

at the 12 month mark Pantheon will start hitting the "oh sh!t button" and by 18 months it will be free to play 100%

If people want to PVP each other there are way better games than mideval elf sim. Mideval elf sim is for slaying dragons and people need to stick to the script

hope this guy never gets his shitty surname back

[username17]

I enjoyed LoTRO. There were paywalls but you generally earned enough in game currency to pay for them by the time you hit them. I guess it depends on playstyle. I played LoTRO like a completionist so I never had issues with having the currency to buy from the store.

[Evia]

I enjoyed LoTRO. There were paywalls but you generally earned enough in game currency to pay for them by the time you hit them. I guess it depends on playstyle. I played LoTRO like a completionist so I never had issues with having the currency to buy from the store.

I also enjoyed lotro although I feel spurned by them. I paid for two lifetime sub accounts roughly 3 months before it become free to play. :/

[Lhancelot]

hope this guy never gets his shitty surname back

Prometheus was punished by the gods for being rebellious and not following the laws that they laid down.

His punishment was to be chained to Mount Olympus for all of eternity. Not only that, but he was granted unnatural regeneration. They did this not to help poor Prometheus, but instead to make him suffer more.

Every day, a great and powerful griffon flew to Mount Olympus with the sole intention of ripping open Prometheus's guts to feast upon his innards as he was chained and unable to escape or hide.

After the traumatic attack, once the griffon had it's fill of Prometheus's innards it flew away, it's hunger satiated. Prometheus then would painfully regenerate all of his organs and flesh that was eaten off his body, all the while still chained to the side of the great mountain Olympus.

A day later the griffon would return to continue it's daily feast on poor Prometheus. This was to last all of eternity.

Spyder is Prometheus.

He will forever be chained to p99, unable to escape the torture that the p99 admin have bestowed upon him. He will NEVER wear the surname "Wu'Tang" above any of his alts for all of eternity, and he will forever bear this cross for the rest of his life.

It's quite poetic actually.

[Mblake1981]

The gamer label came after my time that ended about the time this happened. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAFLfx3mvIg)

[fadetree]

The biggest problem is gear. We are all so locked into the idea of ascending power in gear that it shapes the entire experience. The developers like it because it gives them a simple way to dangle a carrot to keep people playing. We like the achievement dopamine hits of leveling and scaling up our gear.
Unfortunately, the continual ascension of power produces trivialized content which produces the need to constantly release 'expansion' content of increasing difficulty. Things get complicated and hard to tune, and trying to balance out huge amounts of itemizations and skill trees is extremely difficult. You wind up with a bunch of god-like characters standing around bitching about being bored.
I'd like to try something without the gear mechanic, and maybe even the whole idea of character 'stats' and 'levels'. The game would have char stats at some level of course, but they wouldn't ever be visible and they wouldn't ever change. Gear would not affect your char stats. Armor and weapons would not magically enhance your survivability, although armors would protect you some and good weapons would help your damage some. Armor and weapons would not 'drop' from kills unless the mob was wearing/using them, and everything else would have to be made by players. Everything would break/rust/wear out unless maintained. All abilities would be skill based, with skill ups available via repetition and/or 'lessons' from higher skilled players. Magic would exist but be skill based as above. Magical items would be very very rare and they would also break/rust/wear out. No character stats at all would be visible, not HP, not attributes, not AC or ATK or anything like that. Everything would have to be built/made - clothes, houses, carts, castles. Basically, it would be a medieval life simulator with some magic thrown in. Most of your characters would turn out to be peasants and you have to do peasant-y stuff like mine for filth or be oppressed. Only a few characters would get to do any real pillaging and they would either get syphilis or be killed in battle after a few hours.
OK, so I got pulled into a monty python movie there for a sec - but I actually do think that the gear and levels mechanic needs to be rethought. It pulls the game to the same place every time.

[Baler]

The biggest problem is gear. We are all so locked into the idea of ascending power in gear that it shapes the entire experience. The developers like it because it gives them a simple way to dangle a carrot to keep people playing. We like the achievement dopamine hits of leveling and scaling up our gear.
Unfortunately, the continual ascension of power produces trivialized content which produces the need to constantly release 'expansion' content of increasing difficulty. Things get complicated and hard to tune, and trying to balance out huge amounts of itemizations and skill trees is extremely difficult. You wind up with a bunch of god-like characters standing around bitching about being bored.
I'd like to try something without the gear mechanic, and maybe even the whole idea of character 'stats' and 'levels'. The game would have char stats at some level of course, but they wouldn't ever be visible and they wouldn't ever change. Gear would not affect your char stats. Armor and weapons would not magically enhance your survivability, although armors would protect you some and good weapons would help your damage some. Armor and weapons would not 'drop' from kills unless the mob was wearing/using them, and everything else would have to be made by players. Everything would break/rust/wear out unless maintained. All abilities would be skill based, with skill ups available via repetition and/or 'lessons' from higher skilled players. Magic would exist but be skill based as above. Magical items would be very very rare and they would also break/rust/wear out. No character stats at all would be visible, not HP, not attributes, not AC or ATK or anything like that. Everything would have to be built/made - clothes, houses, carts, castles. Basically, it would be a medieval life simulator with some magic thrown in. Most of your characters would turn out to be peasants and you have to do peasant-y stuff like mine for filth or be oppressed. Only a few characters would get to do any real pillaging and they would either get syphilis or be killed in battle after a few hours.
OK, so I got pulled into a monty python movie there for a sec - but I actually do think that the gear and levels mechanic needs to be rethought. It pulls the game to the same place every time.

Power creep is the best way to explain what you said. And it's a problem that plagues mmo's now-a-days. It would be nice if they could release expansions without making old content useless/trivializing it I agree. I think many theme park mmos like WoW don't even care at this point. They just keep climbing the ladder of power ignoring everything left behind.

[Lhancelot]

Power creep is the best way to explain what you said. And it's a problem that plagues mmo's now-a-days. It would be nice if they could release expansions without making old content useless/trivializing it I agree. I think many theme park mmos like WoW don't even care at this point. They just keep climbing the ladder of power ignoring everything left behind.

They could fix this by instead of creating bigger stats on items which ends up trivializing old items by instead creating new weapons and abilities that work with future content.

Meaning, in the first expansion make it so mobs take damage from frost and swords more than other types of damage. In the next expansion, create a world where mobs are more susceptible to other forms of damage. This is just a simplified example but you get the idea.

They could create new abilities that allowed players to conquer the newer content easier instead of constantly raising the stat bar of the characters and their items. This would allow for older content to still remain relevant as well as giving old weapons and skills/abilities a place to still be useful.

[Necrostoner]

They could fix this by instead of creating bigger stats on items which ends up trivializing old items by instead creating new weapons and abilities that work with future content.

Meaning, in the first expansion make it so mobs take damage from frost and swords more than other types of damage. In the next expansion, create a world where mobs are more susceptible to other forms of damage. This is just a simplified example but you get the idea.

They could create new abilities that allowed players to conquer the newer content easier instead of constantly raising the stat bar of the characters and their items. This would allow for older content to still remain relevant as well as giving old weapons and skills/abilities a place to still be useful.



Then you just have the same content and items that just have different resistances. Nothing like doing the same thing over and over. *Cough Everquest cough*

[fadetree]

My recommendations:
1. No visible numbers....no stats or HP or Mana or AC/ATK numbers.
2. All gear can break/degrade. Can be repaired by players with skills. Good stuff lasts longer, crap breaks easy. Gear can degrade all the way to unrepairable.
3. All gear can be tradeskilled except the really rare stuff
4. Magical items all need to be powered and recharged, and can break/explode.
5. damage is wound and fatigue based - not subtraction of abstract HP numbers.
6. All gear takes skill levels to use...no twinking. If I am a bad swordsman with a rusty longsword I still suck with a Longsword of Uber Slaying.
7. Any special 'treasure' loot that drops is all no drop.
8. All skills learned by repetition. A master can teach up to a certain level to make it go faster.
9. No 'levels', it's all skill based. If a Giant can stomp me flat when I first start, then he can when I've played a long time unless I dodge. Meaning, I don't have an absurdly larger number of 'hit points', I can use my skills to not get hit in the first place much better at higher skill levels.

[Axlrose]

Fadetree -

It sounds like you would want a game that combined Eve with EverQuest. Your character advances through skill training, but would never be so utterly powerful that nothing can best him (or her). You training as a warrior template can kill a relatively new player, but a gang of small players would whittle you dead with one thousand cuts. Markets and resources are player driven - if nobody is mining Veldspar (iron), then nothing would be sold to another player that can then create the armor and weapons needed to combat monsters (pirates or "rats" in Eve). And short of training long lengths of time to utilize that better sword (tech two item), then you would be using what nearly everyone else would be using.

I have considered and collected numerous thoughts about such a game for a while now! :D

[fadetree]

Yeah I was thinking it sounded like what I've heard about Eve.

[shuklak]

No... he said those were examples of his reasons...

[deniedius]

I really enjoyed vanilla WOW, mainly because it forced you to make friends in the game. Much like EQ you were forced to interact with others. Even if you were soloing in EQ you had to negotiate camps with people, trade buffs (hey I'll sow you for some clarity) etc.

I think one of the issues with new MMOs is the lack of the "multiplayer" part. I felt EQ, vanilla wow, and dark ages of camelot were very good for that element.

On to items. I tried to play the new wow because some co workers were into it. I realized I freaking hate items that you need to progress and level up. It's freaking depressing. I honestly just like having said item and that's it. I still enjoy the EQ itemization the most, followed by original warcraft. Everything felt real and very important to have.

I have high hopes for Pantheon, but I'm also a bit excited for the new camelot game. I like the insane amount of classes and races in it. I always felt EQ had the most robust races and classes.

So we'll see what happens.

[fadetree]

New camelot game? You mean uthgard? I haven't checked on that in a while...

[woefully_inept]

New camelot game? You mean uthgard? I haven't checked on that in a while...

The new Camelot game is Camelot Unchained.

http://www.camelotunchained.com/