question on effectiveness of hybrid tanks in kunark

[Folksie]

Hi all,

Just been reading a very interesting thread on wars versus hybrid tanks in classic and beyond: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9237

My question is this. My main is chanter but I'd like to play an alt into the 50's with Kunark if poss and would like that alt to be a MA type tank. I'm assuming the agro problems of low-level warriors at present will go away and in any case can live with that, so really i care about tanking in the 50-60 range.

So, bearing that in mind, I'm wondering for those who played in Kunark era, as tanks and especially as healers, was there a noticeable difference between durability of warriors vs hybrid tanks? Did it take a lot more mana to heal the bybrid tanks? Also, far less crucially, just how big is gap in dps and did it make any difference to group effectiveness.

I'm assuming obviously similar gear/playing skill. Also I personally care about the 'role' in group more than the class (I want to be MA); so the distinctions of whether that's done with procs/taunt or spells doesn't matter much to me, and nor does utility of invis/ivu/fd etc. Also I doubt I'll raid with the char, just want to enjoy grouping to 60, so input on raids is appreciated but would especially like to know about group dynamics.

Edit: Also one additional question: in Kunark era what % of time did MA pull? I realise it varies with group/camp but in my memories playing cleric in old seb, it was always tank pulling. This would be great as I enjoy that side of game, so just wondering how frequently that happens.

Cheers,

Folksie

[Messianic]

For group encounters, it really depends on which encounter you're facing. Sometimes a paladin or SK tank really is a better option. Sometimes you've got such a good group composition (i.e. Chanter, Cleric, Warrior, shaman, + two hardcore dps, etc - or one of the other great composition combos) that it really won't make a difference and having as beefy a tank as possible (i.e. a well-equipped, dual proc-wielding warrior) is better.

And if you've got a paladin or SK who knows how to use his periphery skills, or a warrior who's so fast on the taunt button or so quick at peeling from healers/etc, that player's skill (defined as attentiveness, knowledge of class skills and other class' skills and how to react to the situation at hand) will override the advantage of having the more "ideal" tank class for the encounter.

Just play whichever tank class you think will be most enjoyable to you in the long run.

[guineapig]

It's only on raid bosses where you start seeing a huge difference in damage mitigation and I think it will be more important with Velious bosses than most of the Kunark bosses.

[Extunarian]

the distinctions of whether that's done with procs/taunt or spells doesn't matter much to me, and nor does utility of invis/ivu/fd etc. Also I doubt I'll raid with the char, just want to enjoy grouping to 60.


If you don't care about utility then play a warrior. The reason you play a knight is because you want to be warrior-ish but have all those neat utility spells.

However, I think if you are really looking to play the 6-person group game you may want to play a class that has more at its disposal even if it takes a durability hit. Sure there are things you can do with mob placement and the like but for the most part as a warrior you're autoattacking, kicking and hoping for procs. Also, remember that taunt mechanics don't get fixed for quite some time yet, so warriors will still be unable to get agro at will on yellow and red cons.


Edit: Also one additional question: in Kunark era what % of time did MA pull?


Someone will disagree with me, but in most pickup group situations I prefer someone with pulling utility to be the puller. Harmony, FD, or some other way to pull in a managed way. More importantly I don't want the main tank pulling because then the group has to wait until the last mob is dead before he can corral some more. No one wants to fight for 10 seconds then wait 30 seconds for the next mob.

[Messianic]

Someone will disagree with me, but in most pickup group situations I prefer someone with pulling utility to be the puller. Harmony, FD, or some other way to pull in a managed way. More importantly I don't want the main tank pulling because then the group has to wait until the last mob is dead before he can corral some more. No one wants to fight for 10 seconds then wait 30 seconds for the next mob.

This was pretty true. Main tanks made lousy pullers for really good exp groups unless they were just picking off single mobs that were returning from an FD pull.

Sometimes we had really good chanters pulling, even when I was a monk in the group. It was just faster to have me beating crap up and letting him tash pull and deal with adds than worry about exerting too much control over the pull (esp in velks when pulls were scarce anyway). If a dangerous pull became necessary, i'd take care of that.

[Folksie]

If you don't care about utility then play a warrior. The reason you play a knight is because you want to be warrior-ish but have all those neat utility spells.

However, I think if you are really looking to play the 6-person group game you may want to play a class that has more at its disposal even if it takes a durability hit. Sure there are things you can do with mob placement and the like but for the most part as a warrior you're autoattacking, kicking and hoping for procs. Also, remember that taunt mechanics don't get fixed for quite some time yet, so warriors will still be unable to get agro at will on yellow and red cons.



Thankyou for answer Extun.

So you'd say, even levelling 56-60, a reasonably geared paladin won't need that much more healing than a tank? And will be able to handle the tougher named's that one gets doing pickup groups in old seb/karnos or whatever?

I think that's the crux of what I want to get at, I would quite enjoy tossing in roots/stuns on mobs as pally, but also don't want to worry about being mana-sponge for clerics in endgame.

[Extunarian]

I would quite enjoy tossing in roots/stuns on mobs as pally, but also don't want to worry about being mana-sponge for clerics in endgame.

Obviously we don't know exactly how everything will be tuned here, but I think a pally or sk would not have anything to worry about for any groupable content. Tanking is a big part of their class and they can hold up just fine. Lets face it, tanks are a bit harder to come by on this server and any cleric is going to be happy to drop cheals on a pally or sk because it means the ranger and monk aren't tanking.

Not only is the survivability difference negligible in a group context, but any talk of a pally not being the 'ideal' tank in a PUG will come to a halt as soon as you save the group with a well-timed LoH on the chanter or cleric. Same goes for the SK who HT's down that nasty caster add before it nukes the cleric to oblivion.

[milsorgen]

So, bearing that in mind, I'm wondering for those who played in Kunark era, as tanks and especially as healers, was there a noticeable difference between durability of warriors vs hybrid tanks? Did it take a lot more mana to heal the bybrid tanks? Also, far less crucially, just how big is gap in dps and did it make any difference to group effectiveness.


As a warrior I played a bit of Kunark mostly outside and inside of KC, and while outside I could get away grouping with a hybrid or pairing up with my buddies mage, inside was a different story and generally a warrior was called upon to tank in most circumstances. Now I can't relate as to the durability vs as I never played a hybrid in the area but there was a definite push to have a well formed group as defined by standard roles.

[Extunarian]

Sometimes we had really good chanters pulling, even when I was a monk in the group.

This is very true. If the healers are OK with it I love pulling with my chanter...have the mobs tashed, debuffed, mezzed, lined up and ready to have DPS applied at the group's earliest convenience.

[Bubbles]

Evasive and Defensive are pretty awe-inspriing and have quick reuse times (like 7 and 10mins?).. It starts to separate the warrior from the pack in terms of mitigation.. Of course, quick and reliable aggro-generation still is another story.

[fugazi]

Roll a halfling warrior, level up fast as hell and get some nice proccing weapons - you'll never run into any troubles and get sneak/hide to boot. Halflings got great stats and that xp bonus is too juicy to pass up on.

[guineapig]

Roll a halfling warrior, level up fast as hell and get some nice proccing weapons - you'll never run into any troubles and get sneak/hide to boot. Halflings got great stats and that xp bonus is too juicy to pass up on.

This is what I did on live and had no regrets. Had no issues on raid bosses. Loved my halfling warrior!

[Messianic]

This is what I did on live and had no regrets. Had no issues on raid bosses. Loved my halfling warrior!

Yeah, and having the ability to hide/sneak (albeit in a limited way) is indispensable for a class with no defenses other than its armor and weapons...

Warrior CR = /wrist

Although, it's kinda cool to have forage if you're iksar or wood elf (I think wood elves have innate forage).

[Folksie]

This is very true. If the healers are OK with it I love pulling with my chanter...have the mobs tashed, debuffed, mezzed, lined up and ready to have DPS applied at the group's earliest convenience.

Interesting, I can see this method really helping with warrior agro management too. Assuming they are able to land a couple successful taunts on the tashed/slowed/mezzed mob, they are then able to engage it with massive-hate lead over any dps in the group.

[Extunarian]

Interesting, I can see this method really helping with warrior agro management too. Assuming they are able to land a couple successful taunts on the tashed/slowed/mezzed mob, they are then able to engage it with massive-hate lead over any dps in the group.

If it's a warrior I usually root it before they break :)

[Folksie]

Hehe, such lack of faith. ;P If I was a war I'd protest the kid-gloves.

I would think in theory that if mob is blue-con warrior could get up to enchanter hate +1, and at that point chanter doesn't need to cast any more spells on the mob so all is good. Plus the war then has hate equal to tash+slow+mez versus the dps in group who have no hate? War could even do some target-switching for taunt on the mezzed mob while killing off old one to ensure a few taunts land.

[shuklak]

well you've also got to consider that at least 1-30'ish you're going to be tanking even cons and higher regularly. with that said, I don't think the current warrior taunt even helps at all.

[gnomishfirework]

Shadow Knights are the best tanks for a group situation.

Warriors are MT in kunark, velious raids cause of defensive discipline.

Paladins are good in groups as well. Kind of rely on proximity aggro until they grt stuns though (flash of light and root).

Shadow Knights have a level 9 spell that is king for aggro.

[Extunarian]

War could even do some target-switching for taunt on the mezzed mob while killing off old one to ensure a few taunts land.

They could, but most don't. And since there is no way to know if taunt failed or not most mobs end up running after the chanter when a warrior breaks in pug groups.

[Messianic]

They could, but most don't. And since there is no way to know if taunt failed or not most mobs end up running after the chanter when a warrior breaks in pug groups.

Yeah, and root is cheap. Even as a wizard, i'd root mezzed mobs for the chanter just in case...For those who didn't do it themselves, that is.

[fugazi]

True dat, root is ever underappreciated. 30 mana to save a few hits that would cost way more mana to heal is a good bargain, plus you can safely break the mez and have the right person be hit.

[guineapig]

Paladins are good in groups as well. Kind of rely on proximity aggro until they grt stuns though (flash of light and root).


Yeah but proximity agro is pretty much a guarantee where as I have seen an SK have to recast DC a couple times in the case of low health agro, sit agro or random enchanter agro. It ends up taking less time for a paladin to root or blind then it does for an SK to get off a second DC in these situation (due to the short refresh).

This isn't by any means huge but I feel that Palies are just as good as SK, just using different tactics.