PoG and ST should be FFA and binds removed

[Tune]

just makes sense for current rule set

thx for all the hard work

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

Tunare's call for assistance should cause NPC's to drop off of the player kiting the zone's NPCs and return to Tunare and/or aggro the new "assist".

Just makes sense given patches for Cazic Thule and Vulak'Aerr previously put into P99.

Thanks for all the hard work.

[Outer]

Being a plane it should be FFA but you should t be able to kite mobs over the pond to avoid tunare calling. That's an exploit

[ricquire]

It should definitely be FFA based on the PVP ruleset. Keep in mind POM is not FAA.

Binding is a judgement call and would be non-classic. I think it would make more sense to remove binding. If binding is removed, all existing binds should be moved to EC similar to NToV, which was not done in Kael or Skyshrine when binding was removed from those zones.

Any method to circumvent game mechanics, especially ones that have been made stricter via a patch, should at minimum be reviewed as a potential exploit.

[Llandris]

Do not shit up the bug forums. Keep discussions civil or I will start handing out suspensions here and in game.

[bestovv]

Binding is classic and should be back for all the zones it was in, but I guess that's one of those non classic changes to make raids more difficult? Tov's whatever but not being able to bind in city zones is pretty lame imo.

[Buhbuh]

Just some context: The people arguing for one side of this are Red players that want to continue to grief the leading raid guild on content they're incapable of doing themselves (with a tiny handful of players).

What is in the game right now are the current mechanics. They have been changed once. We use them to complete raid content everywhere. GMs are welcome to change anything they see fit, but Tunare will be dying on Red either way.

I will say that I don't see why a GM would hold back from making a common change to a raid zone that currently exists in all other raid zones on Velious, not to mention most Planes outside of Velious (Fear, Sky, Hate).

Skyshrine, Kael, Icewell, Temple of Veeshan -- seems like Plane of Growth was simply missed on Red in the process of making those changes because no one attempted raid content there until now.

Removing binds and level range in Plane of Growth is not a strange request. No one on this server was even bound there until yesterday (the first time Tunare was attempted). This removal of binds does two things - it stops people that die on a Tunare fight from instantly respawning to bind rush Tunare, and it stops people that wish to bind rush an opposing guild that is attempting the mob.

[Outer]

Just some context: The people arguing for one side of this are Red players that want to continue to grief the leading raid guild on content they're incapable of doing themselves (with a tiny handful of players).

What is in the game right now are the current mechanics. They have been changed once. We use them to complete raid content everywhere. GMs are welcome to change anything they see fit, but Tunare will be dying on Red either way.

I will say that I don't see why a GM would hold back from making a common change to a raid zone that currently exists in all other raid zones on Velious, not to mention most Planes outside of Velious (Fear, Sky, Hate).

Skyshrine, Kael, Icewell, Temple of Veeshan -- seems like Plane of Growth was simply missed on Red in the process of making those changes because no one attempted raid content there until now.

Removing binds and level range in Plane of Growth is not a strange request. No one on this server was even bound there until yesterday (the first time Tunare was attempted). This removal of binds does two things - it stops people that die on a Tunare fight from instantly respawning to bind rush Tunare, and it stops people that wish to bind rush an opposing guild that is attempting the mob.

Grief? It's a pvp server. -should check out blue. But GMs need to be aware that tunare is not currently calling it's aided wolfs minions etc when you kite the entire zone over the pond.

[Buhbuh]

You should maybe check that yourself. Last I checked (last night) she calls the whole zone.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

The ability (not the effectiveness) of bind rushing a mob, in a zone which you may bind, is classic.

By extension the ability (not the effectiveness) of bind rushing a opposing guild, in a zone which you may bind, is classic.

If Apex does not want PVP via current or classic mechanics ("We use them [current mechanics] to complete raid content everywhere") then there are other non PVP server options available.

Keep in mind 50% of the topic of this discussion is coming from a leading raid guild who utilizes the same mechanic to deny content they do not regularly do themselves. By PVPing with characters bound at the Kael/WL zoneline, binds that are no longer obtainable since the previous patch.

[Outer]

You should maybe check that yourself. Last I checked (last night) she calls the whole zone.

You kited the zone BEFORE engaging the mob and she didn't call the zone. Not working as intended I believe. empire didn't kill tunare because it wasn't worth clearing the whole zone. You are using a loop hole

[Buhbuh]

There's a big difference between denial of content and contesting content. You may feel denied, but we complete the raid content after said denial. That's following not only the letter of the law, so to speak, but also the spirit of it.

Ronin, on the other hand, does not. But that really is beside the point.

You cannot bind in almost all Velious raid zones, and moreover, you cannot bind in any of the Planes with raid content. Plane of Mischief is an outlier, and quite honestly, it probably should be FFA on principle, despite having no raid content available there.

Consistency is key.

[Buhbuh]

You kited the zone BEFORE engaging the mob and she didn't call the zone. Not working as intended I believe. empire didn't kill tunare because it wasn't worth clearing the whole zone. You are using a loop hole

You should go try it and see what happens.

[Outer]

You should go try it and see what happens.

We watched you wipe and the bard continued to glitch the mobs over the pond then you reengaged it and it never called the mobs. This is for the gms to decide.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

I agree.

If any X is FFA, all X should be.

If binding is disabled in X, the all such X should be.

Whether X is raid zone, planar zone, is minutiae.

Yet TOV was handled differently and all currently bound were rebound- yet no other zone did that occur.

An inconsistency that prevents PVP bind rushing on NToV mobs- mobs that only a single guild kills- therefore a inconsistency that benefits one guild more so than others.

Again, I agree, consistency is key.

[Buhbuh]

I agree.

If any X is FFA, all X should be.

If binding is disabled in X, the all such X should be.

Whether X is raid zone, planar zone, is minutiae.

Yet TOV was handled differently and all currently bound were rebound- yet no other zone did that occur.

An inconsistency that prevents PVP bind rushing on NToV mobs- mobs that only a single guild kills- therefore a inconsistency that benefits one guild more so than others.

Again, I agree, consistency is key.

That isn't the mechanics of Everquest's fault that your guild can't complete raid content in ToV. It's because we won't let you, regardless of any mechanic in place. Your ability or inability to bind rush isn't indicative of inherent unfairness.

The better and bigger guild doesn't benefit because of mechanics swayed in their favor. In fact, allowing binds in ToV again would make our stranglehold on content even more lopsided than it is now.

At some point you need to take responsibility for your own shortcomings, preferably not in this thread.

Consistency means no binding in any current Velious raid zones, and FFA in all current Velious raid zones. End of story.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

con·sist·en·cy
kənˈsistənsē/Submit
noun
1.
conformity in the application of something, typically that which is necessary for the sake of logic, accuracy, or fairness.
"the grading system is to be streamlined to ensure greater consistency"
synonyms: uniformity, constancy, regularity, evenness, steadiness, stability, equilibrium; More

Statement: Binding in X zones is detrimental to PVP experience and will be changed.
Action 1 - Removing the ability to bind from X zones going forward
Action 2 - Replacing all character binds of Y with bind of EC.

X does not equal Y. Therefore the action was not consistent.

Either guilds ability or lack there of has nothing to do with that. An inconsistent adjustment was made, and due to its lack of consistency there is a positive and a negative, who lies on which side is subjective.

[Buhbuh]

Statement: Binding in X zones is detrimental to PVP experience and will be changed.
Action 1 - Removing the ability to bind from X zones going forward
Action 2 - Replacing all character binds of Y with bind of EC.

X does not equal Y. Therefore the action was not consistent.

Inventing a Y in that equation doesn't make it any less wrong.

Statement: Binding in X zones is detrimental to PVP experience and will be changed.
Action 1 - Removing the ability to bind from X zones going forward
Action 2 - Replacing all character binds in X zones retroactively with binds in EC.



fixed

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

You either misunderstood or are wrong on your assessment of the value of X. I was referring to the actions taken on previous patches.

X = skyshrine, kael, icewell, TOV
Y = TOV

You "correction" is a denial of the law of identity.

For X to equal X as you are implying it, that would mean not a single PC remains bound in skyshrine, kael, or icewell.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

You continue to attack in attempt to exert dominance, adding un-cited/baseless comments and insults to an otherwise constructive debate on game mechanics and vying for their adjustment, one way or another. I am trying to maintain a reasonable discussion, however you appear to be unwilling or unable to understand logic, and continue to stray below the bounds of common discussion etiquette, despite warnings and post removal.

I think we agree on more aspects than not, and I do not deny that Apex is a stronger guild in many aspects on the server. Multiple rules need to be evaluated here, and while I concede that you may likely Tunare at some point, it should not be prior to a confirmation or adjustment to the points discussed today - which it sounds like are currently be considered by the P99 devs.

[Buhbuh]

Taking out ToV’s binds was a prescription made based on pulling (mostly on Blue), not because of PvP. You’re going to be hard pressed to convince devs that all raiding zones are equivalent and deserve the same treatment.

Tunare isn’t classic. Lord Vyemm isn’t classic. Many things get changed here unhinged from logic. This isn’t one of those hard to determine fixes.

Those aren’t baseless comments. They’re uncited, yes, but true. Anyone that logs in to Red can see that they’re true. You aren’t even in Apex. The only reason you’re here is to defend a way to stop us from trying it straight up. That’s fact. We get it. Highfalutin, clinical language to sound like you care. Gotta plow through the rigmarole to not seem like you’ve got vested interests.

Let’s move on. PoG - no binds, FFA.

Make a new thread to cry about Tunare train.

[Tune]

Tunare's call for assistance should cause NPC's to drop off of the player kiting the zone's NPCs and return to Tunare and/or aggro the new "assist".

Just makes sense given patches for Cazic Thule and Vulak'Aerr previously put into P99.

Thanks for all the hard work.

can u just delete this guys posts? hes way off topic, this needs a different thread IF anything

kael
icewell
skyshrine
ToV

all FFA / no bind

doesnt make sense to not include PoG / ST

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

So Apex's stance is no binds. When you say no binds does that mean no longer able to bind, or remove all existing binds?

[coolget]

i disagree - binding should be allowed in plane of growth and sleeper's tomb

it's classic

[Baam]

Make binds and FFA zones classic however they were and fix the Tunare assist exploit, that’s all we got to say

If you let Apex slide on the exploit that would just be wrong

[Buhbuh]

how often do you cry and snitch to your superiors when you aren't at the computer?

your online persona is an affectation, i.e. two faced.

my disdain for GMs botching aspects of Red99 has been chronicled well. it's mutually exclusive with apex using in game mechanics to bypass long boring shitty parts of the game. rogean is wrong on this, bottom line. this was doable before and after the latest tunare patch on R99, and using what guilds did on live as a reliable marker for what we should be able to do here is absurd.

see you in PoG

[Buhbuh]

and seriously, can you change the binds and make it FFA? it's a plane.

[panquakes]

Same for Pom

[coolget]

how often do you cry and snitch to your superiors when you aren't at the computer?

your online persona is an affectation, i.e. two faced.

my disdain for GMs botching aspects of Red99 has been chronicled well. it's mutually exclusive with apex using in game mechanics to bypass long boring shitty parts of the game. rogean is wrong on this, bottom line. this was doable before and after the latest tunare patch on R99, and using what guilds did on live as a reliable marker for what we should be able to do here is absurd.

see you in PoG

settle down, psycho

[Baam]

Ouch, Charlie bit meee

[ducktv]

So did this ever get fixed?

[Nirgon]

FFA zones aren't classic - remove them all

Replace with item loot, people play for nostalgia