How to understand armor value

[Cezar]

Hi all, since few weeks I restarted my EQ adventure, stopped in 2002 as a 65 pvp raiding ranger. Now after like 15 years restarted as a war, lvl around 30 atm.
I’m spending some time in hhk and with goblin ears first pp starting to come. As a total ignorant about War I want to prepare a excel file where you giving a value to every stat and finally understanding what’s really better.
I am also always broke, as first char so I will add a ratio on stuffs, points piece worth divided by pp that cost.
For War: I talk with one of best one on server, and he told me the rule:
HP->Sta->AC->Del
I tougt about it and got the conclusion that this is surely right for a high end grouping/raiding war. Hp pool is what you looking for, and dex to let your weapon proc. Probably (soloing, questing, eventually group) lvl 30 war need something else, like being hit less as possible, and do more damage as possible. For it I would like you to consider my point attribution for my excel file!
AC: 3 - str/sta: 2 - dex: 1,5 - agi: 1 - wis/int/cha/mana: 0 - hp: 0,15 - all resist: 0,3.

Let me explain with an example. With these value the breastplate you have access too are:
Barbed ringmail: 2000pp,ac30,str9,hp50, worth 115,5 points
Tree weave: 150pp,ac25,str10 worth 95 points
Crafted breastplate: 200pp,ac22, sta5, hp25 worth 79,75.

Best one is barbed but if you look at ratio you will discover that tree weave have better ratio, so it’s probably better option for a broke leveling war. As all equip is better ratio, you can look at better stats overall!
I would like your opinion about this calculation and attribution points.

I wrote here instead of class specific it’s cause if you want to replay with your opinion on your class I can update file with every class and pass by.

Thanks to everyone that wanna help!

[aaezil]

HP pool, good weapons, dex, and later on resists(still good to swap on for pulling vs casters at mid lvls)

Thats all that matters for warrior in order of importance lvl 1-60

Good warrior armor naturally has good ac anyway so its not really a thing you have to think about. Just focus HP.

For soloing use fungi + blood points and learn how to combat bandage

[Kich867]

HP pool, good weapons, dex, and later on resists(still good to swap on for pulling vs casters at mid lvls)

Thats all that matters for warrior in order of importance lvl 1-60

Good warrior armor naturally has good ac anyway so its not really a thing you have to think about. Just focus HP.

For soloing use fungi + blood points and learn how to combat bandage

How DO you combat bandage? I tried it the other day and you just stop attacking..

[Nagoya]

in my opinion...

if you want to solo pre-40, HP/AC all the way (in this order), then STR.
if you want to solo post-40 (weapons start to proc), HP/AC all the way, then DEX.

if you want to group pre-40, HP/AC all the way, then SVM/STR.
if you want to group post-40, HP/AC all the way, then DEX/SVM, then STR.

note that in all 4 scenarios, having good weapon(s) and good haste is actually #1 on the list.

STA is pretty useless. You see STA a lot (starting attributes etc.) cause in the very high end raiding scene this is what is harder to cap and what warriors work on, but at your level STA is very very worse than raw HP.

STR is somewhat useless. You need enough STR to carry all your equipment, and to hit for max damage often-ish. But you don't need 255 STR at level 30. At your level having something like 150 STR is more than enough. Every point of STR will still marginally add to your dps and aggro generation... but much less than what you'd hope ;)

AGI is completely useless. Not sure why you gave it 1 point hehe. We all want AGI to be relevent, but honestly it gives like 1AC for every 7AGI... I am sure you are aware of the under-75 AGI penalty, and having a little above 75 can be nice for when you are encumbered (which can happen with Disempower-type debuffs even if you are careful) so that you don't suddenly drop under the 75 bar. Also to wear a Fungi (-10AGI). But the consensus is still that you should never care for AGI once it's at 75+.

DEX is a linear progression in terms of weapon procs, and weapon procs are your one way to generate aggro (WESS, Frostbringer, Venomous Axe, good old SSoY, etc.) and also your one way to solo as a warrior (Truncheon of Doom, Bloodpoint, Stave of Shielding, Snare whip, etc.) and every single point in DEX raises your proc% chance (there might be a under-75 penalty as well, but this is not confirmed)... this stat is definitely important in my opinion, but most procs are post level 40, with another big batch at level 50. Before that the stat is barely used so you can cap your weapon skills faster, so don't bother so much (even tho you do see a difference in skill-up pace hehe, this is irrelevent everything will be capped at level 40 :))

As for your direct question (point system to make an excel file and calculate ratios), I understand the madness, I have the same sickness as you, but honestly, just bump into EC everytime you feel like it, or browse the EC Tunnel section of the forum every now and then, and buy the highest HP/AC item you can with your current budget, working on your worst slots... In your exemple, go ahead with either Tree Weave or Crafted BP, depending what's available right now, and go back to fight to save more money for next upgrade. You will see that most items you buy this way will end up having some STR, DEX, AGI, etc. whether you want them or not.

At some point you will want to work on DEX gear, for better procs, and for Resist Gear, for -well- better resists (mostly for raids, but also important in general dungeon crawling). As a warrior you will do a lot of item swapping, and you will carry a lot of situationnal items in your bags.

And more importantly, work on your haste. I am guessing that by now you have hopefully saved for at least an FBSS or SCHW for the base 21-22%haste. If not drop your excel file and work on this hands down. Haste will help you tank better, solo better, survive better than any amount of HP or AC. Also obviously, work on your weapons. Better DPS means better tanking, and mobs dying faster = HP. There are countless threads about warrior weapons on this forum, but long story short for your budget/level: Staff of Battle (2HX, ~500pp), Jade Mace / Crystalline Short Sword or other 1:2 ratio weapons are in the 500-750pp range as well (DW); level 20-49 two-handed weapons like the Staff of Battle will do considerably more damage (tanking) than Dual Wielding.

[bwe]

Ahah this level 30 warrior just needs to use a Fungi

[aaezil]

auto attack off - target self hotkey - bandage - sit - stand - target enemy again - auto attack on

If you move at all or get pushed obviously it will fail best to do in corners

[Nagoya]

How DO you combat bandage? I tried it the other day and you just stop attacking..

my macro is this:

Line 1 = /attack off
Line 2 = /target <myname>
Line 3 = /pause 2
Line 4 = /doability 1 {where 1 = bind wound}
Line 5 = /stand

then i manually TAB or click on my target and hit my auto-attack button.
this works best with naturally slower weapons, like the aforementioned Staff of Battle, cause you lose no DPS in the process, whereas in my DW setting i will inevitably lose a bit of damage.

Also:

- try to get against a wall when you do it, will prevent some of the pushing that could cancel the bind wound.
- works better against a single target if possible (for the same reason).
- this should be obvious, but it's better to start running than to bluntly wait for BW to finish when shit hits the fan... I have died more than i would dare admit because i was combat bind wounding and wanted that last bit of HP heal before running to zone line, hence killing myself :p the /stand part means you're free to move, at the tiny cost of cancelling your BW, so do it if you have to!

[Jimjam]

How DO you combat bandage? I tried it the other day and you just stop attacking..

Target self, bandage, /stand, target opponent, attack on.

I use tab targettimg, a bandage and a stand key. You can condense it into a single key if desired.


Use a /stand (or /sit off?) key instead of a sit/stand toggle key to avoid taking max hit rounds.

Strength won't add to your aggro; a weapon will do the same hate per swing regardless of how hard you hit (or even if you hit at all).

Up to 40 it feels trivial to get AC to the point of diminished returns.

I like Str to haul more loot, hp to survive bad pulls, magic resist to shrug off roots, slows and stuns.

As a warrior position and generating swings are key so these effects are to be avoided!

[Kich867]

Ty! I guess I figured /stand would cancel it, very cool.

[maskedmelon]

Target self, bandage, /stand, target opponent, attack on.

I use tab targettimg, a bandage and a stand key. You can condense it into a single key if desired.


Use a /stand (or /sit off?) key instead of a sit/stand toggle key to avoid taking max hit rounds.

Strength won't add to your aggro; a weapon will do the same hate per swing regardless of how hard you hit (or even if you hit at all).

Up to 40 it feels trivial to get AC to the point of diminished returns.

I like Str to haul more loot, hp to survive bad pulls, magic resist to shrug off roots, slows and stuns.

As a warrior position and generating swings are key so these effects are to be avoided!

super good advice all around here.

Also, tree weave has a leather look, so kinda cool from a fashion quest perspective.

[Cezar]

Thought could be a good idea to standard the equip but you gave me some great advices.
Well if I could afford a fungi I probably whould’nt bother configuring the excel.
I just want a little planning on equip to optimize my low money.
Last advice I ask at this point is: I’m in full crafted atm, could have any sense move to crustacean losing some AC for some str and sta? Thanks everyone

[Nagoya]

just to be clear i never said you should wear a fungi hehe.
i said having 85+ AGI can be nice when wearing a fungi, which is one of the only time i can think of having higher-than-75 AGI is good. it was a comment regarding AGI, not regarding level 30 warriors gear.

[Jimjam]

It's roughly the same tier.

Crafted / jar sath / crustacean -> hate / cobalt -> growth / thurgadin / crystal chitin -> kael / sky shrine -> endgame velious... Basically.

[Cezar]

Nagoya was not for ya, just for everyone thinking anyone can buy a fungi :-)
Perissh, I’m sorry math not working as your supermarket ;-)

[Zentile]

Here is my point allocation on a 60 monk in case you were wondering:

1 AC = 4
1 STR = 2
1 STA = 4
1 AGI = 1
1 DEX = 2
1 HP = 1
1 svM = 6
1 svF = 3
1 svC = 3
1 svP = 2
1 svD = 2


I also add a bonus for worn abilities like see invis (80), ultravision (60), regen (15 per regen point), and enduring breath (40).

I have an entire scale for haste too, although I must admit I don't think it's balanced right yet:

41% = 450
36% = 350
34% = 300
31% = 250
26-27% = 200
24% = 150
21-22% = 100


For weapons, I kept it simple and multiply the dmg/dly ratio by 500 in addition to any other points for stats.

Hope that helps,

Zen

[Rygar]

Here is my point allocation on a 60 monk in case you were wondering:

1 AC = 4
1 STR = 2
1 STA = 4
1 AGI = 1
1 DEX = 2
1 HP = 1
1 svM = 6
1 svF = 3
1 svC = 3
1 svP = 2
1 svD = 2


I also add a bonus for worn abilities like see invis (80), ultravision (60), regen (15 per regen point), and enduring breath (40).

I have an entire scale for haste too, although I must admit I don't think it's balanced right yet:

41% = 450
36% = 350
34% = 300
31% = 250
26-27% = 200
24% = 150
21-22% = 100


For weapons, I kept it simple and multiply the dmg/dly ratio by 500 in addition to any other points for stats.

Hope that helps,

Zen

Look at you go Master Zentile! I am curious though, why give any significant gains at all to SV Disease or SV Poison on gear? These are easily capped with buffs (well poison anyways) and even more so for a small investment in PoM flowers. I really don't think they should weigh in at all for a gear choice, I would think 1pt or even 0pts.

Also, AC for all classes eventually reaches a soft cap, where returns will greatly diminish afterwards. There is some debate on exactly how AC is functioning here due to client display issues, but you could always model it after the classic formulas since it will eventually be modeled after that. So my point is just a flat 4pts for AC is misleading, as eventually a 10ac item (the actual AC shown on the item) would only grant you ~3ac on a monk past the soft cap, but would grant 16ac before the soft cap.

Would obviously also value dex only if wielding weapons with a significant proc (i.e. TStaff, Fist of Nature, etc). I myself use a IFS or Epic + SoS, so dex is essentially worthless.

All in all, I think gear scoring is a great idea, but no system is perfect. A lot may vary depending on level (STA), encounters (resists), and group composition (buffs that can cap STR, etc).

[Troxx]

Don’t worry about coming up with a formula for warrior gear on p99. If you’re new and broke there are a few key items to focus on. Get them taken care of first and then worry about the rest later. I’d focus on them in this order. If you already have these items or better move on to the next step. If you’re low on cash these will give you best bang for your buck. Try to ignore all the other shiny items in EC and save first for these.

-basic armor (ie banded) in all slots. For early game banded to bronze will get you by just fine until close to 50.
-cheap weapons with good ratio (staff of battle, 1handers close to 0.5 dmg/delay)
-2 ac/hp rings, crafted (5ac/55hp best value imo)
-cheap haste (SCHW or FBSS)
-2 proc weapons for use later. A cheap option is snare whip at 14/28. Frostbringer is a great value. Wrapped Entropy Serpent Spine is stellar (none better buyable) but more expensive and procs at level one.

Once that is done just use your head. Dexterity is important for procs. You will want to get it over 120 unbuffed (higher is better) eventually. AC? Also important. Agility make sure at least 75 unbuffed.

Regarding the relative importance of hit points (and stamina) ...

As a warrior you will always have enough hit points to get the job done. If raid main tanking it is critical to crank it up high but by then you will have it. Most of the choices you will face will have an obvious right answer. As you get into the 50+ game (especially high 50s to approaching 60) the best hp choices will have good ac. While you are building your gear base try to avoid dumping plat on 1-2 high hp items where you otherwise might have been able to get 4-6 upgrades elsewhere for the same price. Also keep in mind that eventually you will want 2 bloodpoints and a truncheon if doom along with Jboots and OT hammer.

PS: your most important *stat* (or gear pieces) are HASTE and GOOD WEAPONS. A warrior who can’t hold aggro can’t tank. 50+ do not ignore dex. You will have to go out of your way to find it. Invest your money wisely here even if it means other gear slots are rags.

[Cezar]

Thanks Zentile for your point assignment, that will have make me changing mymind about assigning points.
Troxx I passed your list already but proccing weapon, will work on them. I don’t worry about raid tanking, too many ogre troll to let a tiny wood elf tank ��.

[Jimjam]

Great post Troxx!

[Zentile]

On Live I remember people re-rolling their raid tanks to max CHA for Divine Intervention. Are people that extreme here?

Zen

[Rygar]

On Live I remember people re-rolling their raid tanks to max CHA for Divine Intervention. Are people that extreme here?

Zen

I believe there is evidence that Divine Intervention save was not working properly until Luclin or PoP era fix (it was bugged... the save happened, but was too rare an occurrence to bank on buffing it).

I'm not sure how it is working on P99 honestly.

[Nagoya]

I don’t worry about raid tanking, too many ogre troll to let a tiny wood elf tank ��.

actually check your /who all count warrior <race>
troll warriors are rare-ish. ogres, barbarians and dwarves are most common.
also, many top raiding warriors are humans, half-elves or whatever other races.
from what i understand ogre warriors are actually better 1-59 in PUGs, not in raids. at some point no racial natural ability is that relevent, and a better geared dark elf warrior will be better than a worse geared ogre warrior, FSI or not.

You still shouldn't worry about raiding tho :p but not because you're a wood elf hehe.

[Pope Hat]

I've always had a problem with stuff like this. Gearscore add-on for WoW was one of the many reasons that game was so horrible. You do you, though.

[Supaskillz]

I think part of the fun is you can make an argument for different approaches for different situations. Dex for more procs for holding aggro. AC for mitigation. HP for more efficient CHs or surviving close calls. Str for dps. Resists for casters. Etc

[aaezil]

HP and endgame AC too. When you are dead your procs wont matter anymore anyway

[Zemus]

Here is my point allocation on a 60 monk in case you were wondering:

1 AC = 4
1 STR = 2
1 STA = 4
1 AGI = 1
1 DEX = 2
1 HP = 1
1 svM = 6
1 svF = 3
1 svC = 3
1 svP = 2
1 svD = 2


I also add a bonus for worn abilities like see invis (80), ultravision (60), regen (15 per regen point), and enduring breath (40).

I have an entire scale for haste too, although I must admit I don't think it's balanced right yet:

41% = 450
36% = 350
34% = 300
31% = 250
26-27% = 200
24% = 150
21-22% = 100


For weapons, I kept it simple and multiply the dmg/dly ratio by 500 in addition to any other points for stats.

Hope that helps,

Zen


So to do an item comparison using your method

Necklace of Nightstalking (http://wiki.project1999.com/Necklace_of_Nightstalking): 149 points
Standard +6 neck: 204 points
Zlandi (http://wiki.project1999.com/Zlandicar%27s_Talisman): 225 points
LTK (http://wiki.project1999.com/Lendiniara%27s_Talisman): 227 points
First Brood Talisman (http://wiki.project1999.com/First_Brood_Talisman): 267 points
Yelinak (http://wiki.project1999.com/Yelinak's_Talisman): 247 points (697 if adding haste)
Bile Etched Obsidian Choker (http://wiki.project1999.com/Bile_Etched_Obsidian_Choker):380 points
Amulet of the Dreadgazer (http://wiki.project1999.com/Amulet_of_the_Dreadgazer): 465 points (see invis and ultravision)
Valtrons (http://wiki.project1999.com/Valtron%60s_Necklace_of_Wonder): 555 points

It seems to produce fairly rational results although there are a couple things I would tweak:


Ignore +str as it's so easy to cap
Only give full weight to +sta under 205 then give a +2 allocation to sta between 205 and 255 unbuffed
Give +svFR and +svCR a +2 allocation
Give +svDR and +svPR a +1 allocation
Only give weight to +dex if you have a procing weapon


I agree on the high allocation to +sv magic for a monk, but maybe not for a warrior.

[Zentile]

I started my scorecard measuring everything in relation to HP. That’s why 1 HP = 1 and 1 STA = 4 (for a monk, this would be 6 for a Warrior). Under that approach I tried to decide how many HP I was willing to trade off for other stats.

I think your proposed changes are quite valid, as are Wedar’s (Rygar). Things change as your character evolves too. Namely svP flower from PoM when stacked with DMF and Shaman svP basically means that 1svP should score as zero and a Primal blows the entire melee stat system.

Long story short, you can and should tailor this for your character and change it as they progress. So make you excel able to handle weighting’s changes and not hard code them like a did.

Zen

[mefdinkins]

For soloing use fungi + blood points and learn how to combat bandage

Sorry cherry picking a single comment in here but I have a 50 warrior now and am working on getting some solid gear on her and she's an iksar. Is double bloodpoint leveling still most efficient in Velious?

My war has okay AC with mostly thurg quest armor, 20% spell haste (eyepatch); 36% worn haste; fungi, aob, decent weapons, and working on DS from 9th ring. I have rarely used double Blood Points because even with around 170 dex, I have had fights with 0 or 1 procs.

So that being said, with velious level gear out now, a lot higher AC, and very accessible strong weapons: Skyfury Scimitar, Winters Fury around 5k each and .57 ratio; Frostbringer arund .55 ratio for a couple K; and more frequent rotting warrior weapons in VP and TOV (.62 or .67!?).

At what point do those weapons perform Bloodpoint even with it's proc?!?!

[7thGate]

I'm probably going to run some tests on Divine Intervention when I hit 60, to see if its working as it functions in EQEmu or if it was worse classically/here. The chance in stock eqemu is CHA * 3/10 %, IIRC, so actually isn't too bad if you have a good CHA. I happened to put some points in CHA for RP value, and I'm going to be amused if it ends up having an actual benefit at some point.

[Dwarf Town]

my macro is this:

Line 1 = /attack off
Line 2 = /target <myname>
Line 3 = /pause 2
Line 4 = /doability 1 {where 1 = bind wound}
Line 5 = /stand

then i manually TAB or click on my target and hit my auto-attack button.
this works best with naturally slower weapons, like the aforementioned Staff of Battle, cause you lose no DPS in the process, whereas in my DW setting i will inevitably lose a bit of damage.

Also:

- try to get against a wall when you do it, will prevent some of the pushing that could cancel the bind wound.
- works better against a single target if possible (for the same reason).
- this should be obvious, but it's better to start running than to bluntly wait for BW to finish when shit hits the fan... I have died more than i would dare admit because i was combat bind wounding and wanted that last bit of HP heal before running to zone line, hence killing myself :p the /stand part means you're free to move, at the tiny cost of cancelling your BW, so do it if you have to!
So ogre is best at combat bandage bc of frontal stun immunity or doesnt matter?

[Nagoya]

I never tested but that might be the case yeah. I would suspect so; less stun = more reliable combat BW.