Sneak Pulling

[Doil_Boil]

Just got back to the game after a long absence, and it kind of seems like sneak pulling doesn't work the way it used to. I can get a successful sneak off, have both mobs facing away from me, and tag one and they both aggro. Was this patched?

[Nitholias01]

yes it was patched, it separated the good monks from the dps monks. they will social pull now even when sneaking

[Kavious]

This was patched last year

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265599

[Doil_Boil]

Seems like that makes it awful hard to split some mobs.

[Kesselring]

Seems like that makes it awful hard to split some mobs.

Its more frustrating but not hard. The key to splitting mobs now has to do with their wait period before they path back to their spawn point. For example you pull it off their spawn point and then FD. The mob then has a 'wait period' in which it will start to path back to its spawn. The 'wait period' is random, but it's the key to getting a successful single pull.

[Pezy]

It's pointlessly dumb and non-classic, just like the pbaoe cap.

[Doil_Boil]

It's pointlessly dumb and non-classic, just like the pbaoe cap.

You could sneak pull in classic?

The main issue I have is when the mobs walk back, they walk back too close together. I don't ever remember having that issue on live - you didn't even have to sneak pull. The mobs would walk back far enough apart that you could grab a single.

[jpetrick]

There's a bug report for how sneak should function properly. Who knows if/when they will decide to patch and fix it. It's pretty rough pulling as a monk if you don't have beads now.

[Qtip]

Pull mobs. FD. Wait for all mobs to walk back and reset, but stand up before the last mobs resets at his spawn point. Stand up and all mobs come running back. FD again and the mob that never reset will stay, while the ones that reset will start walking back instantly. Wait for them to reset again and stand up.

It takes a little longer then before the nerf, but not much.

[Swish2]

It's pointlessly dumb and non-classic, just like the pbaoe cap.

You can thank the old Chardok AOE crowd, bless them.

[jolanar]

It's pointlessly dumb and non-classic, just like the pbaoe cap.

Sneak pulling isn't classic at all. It was purely a p99 thing. Honestly surprised it took so long to get fixed.

[Doil_Boil]

Sneak pulling isn't classic at all. It was purely a p99 thing. Honestly surprised it took so long to get fixed.

Actually there's a fair amount of in-era evidence that shows it was a classic thing. Also, mobs path back to their spawns differently here. The space between them was larger on live, which allowed for easier split pulling.. Monks are kinda gimp on this server TBH compared to classic.

[Baler]

Actually there's a fair amount of in-era evidence that shows it was a classic thing.

Take it to the bug section with evidence.

[Doil_Boil]

Take it to the bug section with evidence.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278925

Good idea

[Vianna]

Actually there's a fair amount of in-era evidence that shows it was a classic thing. Also, mobs path back to their spawns differently here. The space between them was larger on live, which allowed for easier split pulling.. Monks are kinda gimp on this server TBH compared to classic.

No there isn't. There is a bit of in era evidence that different factions made sneak pulling seem like it worked.

[Brocode]

"Sneak Pull



Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

There are some mobs that work on social aggro that don't need to "see" the player to be aggro'd by the other mob, most of the time sneak pulling won't help in these isolated instances. But there are LOTS of mobs people have told me are linked by social aggro and I couldn't sneak pull just one, yet I have *shrug*

Anyways, most mobs in norrath work on chain aggro - one runs by aggro'd, it aggro's another, BUT Sneak negates this in most instances.

Sneak pulling can be done from in front too, but requires greater range. Throwing will not work from in front....you can be in front of the target, but NOT in front of the additional mobs you don't want to come. Throwing requires you to be too close to be out of aggro range when hide drops, even with sneak engaged. A nice bow with good range works well for this. If you are far enough away, with sneak engaged, you can fire at one, and the other won't come, even if facing you.

The important thing is KEEP SNEAK ENGAGED until the mob is past anything else it can aggro on it's way to you. If you get hit so that sneak is off, or just take it off, then all normal chain aggro comes into effect.

By the way, because of this, sneak pulling casters is trickier. If they hit you with a nuke, sneak comes off, re-engage it quickly and you have a chance still to negate any chain aggro.

In the end, it's all in the placement of the mobs, use angles and line of sight to minimize aggro with the others you don't want. It's not a simple case of "put sneak on, stand in front of two mobs, hit one and the other shouldn't come". There is no substitute for experience, pathing and aggro is different everywhere. Learn exactly how sneak affects/reduces that aggro in different places and then put it to use.

Responses to some questions:

Yes, aggro radius pulling is useful with sneak too. I use this in Karmors basement where the halls are narrow an there is no room for range weapons.

Line of sight helps a lot in these cases. If you get in a position where one can see you but another can't, while having sneak and hide engaged, then you drop hide - but keep sneak on.

Soon as you see one start to aggro and move, back away quickly. As long as you are out of aggro radius of the other by the time it hits you and sneak drops, you only get the one.

Using this, I have been able to keep the basement completely cleared, getting nothing but single pulls for 8 hours. It makes having the "necessary" cleric and chanter unecessary in an area that gives great xp - I've done the whole basement with nothing but 2 rogues and a druid.

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.

If you are hidden, you can pass other mobs safely without aggroing even though your pull is aggro and following you. "

Source: http://teir-dal.tripod.com/id49.html

seems legit.

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[jpetrick]

No there isn't. There is a bit of in era evidence that different factions made sneak pulling seem like it worked.

There's a bug report with multiple sources. Where is your evidence that sneak pulling isn't classic?

There sure are a lot of ignorant statements being thrown around in this thread.

[Doil_Boil]

There's a bug report with multiple sources. Where is your evidence that sneak pulling isn't classic?

There sure are a lot of ignorant statements being thrown around in this thread.

Fo real. I literally linked the thread with all the info and people still talking mess :)

[Vianna]

There's a bug report with multiple sources. Where is your evidence that sneak pulling isn't classic?

There sure are a lot of ignorant statements being thrown around in this thread.

Read the Bug report. It never mentions the way sneak pulling worked here.

Sneak working to keep aggro off of you until you disengaged sneak again after an FD is classic and should be fixed. That is the only thing proven in that bug thread. But again this also had to do with mobs walking back out of leash range. Which this server had wrong for a long time.

The type of pulling past mobs in that thread discussed is what occurred in zones with different factions. It was not a product of sneak pulling being a useful tool. The mobs just didn't assist each other. That is what a lot of people got wrong back in the day when discussing pulling techniques.

The way sneak pulling worked here never worked on live. That bug thread and what P99 still has wrong also is the no loitering of mobs in raid zones. In raid zones like ToV and Kael for instance in classic Higher level mobs didn't stand around when you would FD. They would immediately start heading back home. It made pulling a team effort instead of a one man show in those zones.

[jpetrick]

Read the Bug report. It never mentions the way sneak pulling worked here.

Sneak working to keep aggro off of you until you disengaged sneak again after an FD is classic and should be fixed. That is the only thing proven in that bug thread. But again this also had to do with mobs walking back out of leash range. Which this server had wrong for a long time.

The type of pulling past mobs in that thread discussed is what occurred in zones with different factions. It was not a product of sneak pulling being a useful tool. The mobs just didn't assist each other. That is what a lot of people got wrong back in the day when discussing pulling techniques.

The way sneak pulling worked here never worked on live. That bug thread and what P99 still has wrong also is the no loitering of mobs in raid zones. In raid zones like ToV and Kael for instance in classic Higher level mobs didn't stand around when you would FD. They would immediately start heading back home. It made pulling a team effort instead of a one man show in those zones.

Great anecdotes. Now, please provide evidence from sources that support your statements.

[planarity]

Pull mobs. FD. Wait for all mobs to walk back and reset, but stand up before the last mobs resets at his spawn point. Stand up and all mobs come running back. FD again and the mob that never reset will stay, while the ones that reset will start walking back instantly. Wait for them to reset again and stand up.

It takes a little longer then before the nerf, but not much.

You've got the right idea, but you got it backwards

[Foxplay]

Just bum rush the mobs and hope for the best

[Vianna]

I'm gonna go with the sources from the two most well known class forums of the classic era. Along with countless testimonials from those who played sneak capable classes in-era(myself included). If two mobs on the same faction or even allied factions stood not facing you or one another you could use sneak to pluck them out solo full stop

Not if they were in assist range of each other you couldn't. You linked things that didn't mention what zones they worked in. Like I said faction pulling did work like what was explained in your thread.

[Vianna]

Great anecdotes. Now, please provide evidence from sources that support your statements.

They were provided when sneak pulling got removed. These aren't anecdotes these are facts. I'm guessing you never played anywhere but P99 as far as classic.

[Vianna]

Here is a thread that no one ever collected on.


https://thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/main-lounge/23347-the-10000pp-sneak-pull-challenge

The way sneak pulling worked here on P99 was the way faction pulling worked on live.

[jpetrick]

They were provided when sneak pulling got removed. These aren't anecdotes these are facts. I'm guessing you never played anywhere but P99 as far as classic.

I played a monk during the Kunark - Planes timeline but you do not see me inserting my personal experiences & memory as fact or evidence.

I haven’t seen any sources for your information. The source I have been using has been cited (and linked) multiple times in this thread so I won’t post it again. Please link your findings that prove sneak is working in a manner that is accurate to the timeline of the server.

Edit: the source you listed doesn’t seem to assist your argument. 2006 is far past the timeline of the server

[Doil_Boil]

Here is a thread that no one ever collected on.


https://thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/main-lounge/23347-the-10000pp-sneak-pull-challenge

The way sneak pulling worked here on P99 was the way faction pulling worked on live.

I mean, did you play in classic? The way mob pulling works here is decidedly not classic..

[Vianna]

I mean, did you play in classic? The way mob pulling works here is decidedly not classic..

It is pretty close now actually. There are just a few minor things left to fix. I mentioned a couple in this thread.

[Swish2]

Should a sneak puller be able to pull a black reaver from just inside the keyed door by moat in CoM without 6-8 adds? (according to classic)

[Doil_Boil]

It is pretty close now actually. There are just a few minor things left to fix. I mentioned a couple in this thread.

Splitting mobs wasn't this hard in classic.

Oh yeah, and people were sneak pulling, too.

Honestly if they just fixed how close together mobs walk back to camp, I'd be happy. In classic, you could split without worrying about sneak. Here it seems like they walk back almost on top of each other.

[supermonk]

this patch actually makes monks a skill class now. best patch ever.

[Supaskillz]

Everyone keeps talking about monks, but rogues are the victims here.

[DinoTriz]

our rogue tootsies are too delicate to pull...pls no make pull

[Triiz]

The type of pulling past mobs in that thread discussed is what occurred in zones with different factions.

One of the posts in the bug report specifically mentions sneak needs to be active while the pulled mob runs past the potential add or it will social aggro, that would not make any difference if the mobs were on different factions.

3) keep sneaking until your own pull is also
past the critter

Another post mentions social aggro multiple times, mobs on different factions do not have social aggro.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

[Buellen]

help not help ?

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monklybusiness43508/skill-guide-feign-death-t681.html

dec 2001 not sure if in era.

---------------------------------

out of era ranger post

http://www.eqoutrider.net/eqforums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3578

op
Postby Xodar » Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:07 pm

muvandog1 wrote:
Make sure you understand how aggro transfers from NPC to NPC. It is probably the most helpful thing when pulling indoors.

If you have NPCs:

A B C

Lined up something like that, you always should pull (or root) A or C, but never B. Do you understand why?

It's because aggro will only transfer "1 level". If you aggro C, any NPCs near C, and any NPCs that C passes as it runs around, will aggro as well. Those are the "1st level transfer" NPCs. If those NPCs in turn run by other, un-aggroed NPCs, they will NOT aggro anything.

So in the above example, if you pull B, you will always get A and C aggro. If you pull A or C, depending on pathing, you may get lucky and only have B aggro.


The single greatest piece of knowledge for pulling indoors. Direct agro on a mob (ala I just cast snare or shot an arrow) can be passed to any mob it comes in range of.
Assist agro on a mob can not be passed.

This means that if a mob that is assist agroed by your tag runs back into a hallway or room full, they don't spread agro.

Best example I can give of this....

If one is max chardok faction, and is near the royals, just walking around waving at your allys.....

The King is in a small depression with another mob. If you root that mob he passes assist agro to the king, who you can then pull to the hallway, or even back to the library, add free and kill at your leisure. As soon as root breaks though, and that single mob comes out of the depression, it passes it's agro to the room full.

Sneak pulling was a combination of proximity pulling while using the fact that mobs facing the other way won't agro a sneaked person. I can't really remember actually using it since LGuk.

Once you have ae root you can do almost anything. A combination of chromo snare, chromo root, and aa snare that casts while gems are gray is a pretty potent toolset though.

Then there's plan C, one of my best friends in the game is a mage. She and I have been playing together for years. There is NOTHING that a well AA'ed 80 ranger and a mage cannot pull. Hell, in SoF since anything with loot is snare immune we've swapped to the ae root everything and get the fast one single.

Mostly you'll use an amalgam of everything though. With our toolset you'll start mentally tracking static spawns and pathers, and find yourself with a pretty good guage of agro ranges and mob pathing actions. In guild groups I almost never bother to pull singles anyway, our root CC is more than adequate.

Typed a little more than I intended to, lol, but in essence, the same way you get to Carnegie Hall... Practice
Plainswalker Xodar
officer <Bhur Gcairde>
Tribunal server

[fastboy21]

Just my quick 2 cp on a topic that is already beaten to death many months ago...

1. I recall folks talking about sneak pulling on live. I have no memory of actually doing it myself or seeing it done. There is very little chance of determining when precisely it worked, exactly how it worked, or when it was removed. The posts people drudge up don't really help the Devs to answer those specific implementation questions.

2. I never recall sneaking while FD dropping aggro on mobs (that otherwise would have had aggro). I never heard of this ability until playing a monk on p99.

3. The way mobs path back is important to legit FD pulling. The way mobs path back on p99 is not classic as I recall it. On p99 it has to do with direct vs indirect aggro. I didn't main a monk on live, so I simply don't have the anecdotal information to know if this is correct.

Over all, I thought the FD/sneak changes actually improved my utility as a monk regardless of the classic status of the change. Sneak pulling allowed multiple classes to pull and break difficult camps with little risk or effort. Removing sneak pulling made monks needed for those pulls (allbeit the pull itself would be harder to do now). As I said this has nothing to do with classic or not. I'm simply reflecting on the feel of the change for me on p99.