Warrior non hate weapons.

[Zoggren]

I'm not even going to say what I am using right now, but I'll just say that they cost less than 800p combined. What are some good suggestions to spend my hard earned big boy points on for some deeps while I'm playing rogue jr? I have around 10k to spend, but I don't need to spend it all and I don't care about fashion quest either. I have some ideas, like exquisite weapons and Winters Fury, but I'd like other ideas and feedback. Thanks ahead of time for your wisdom! Cheers!

[Snaggles]

I think about 16k. What I paid for mine a few months ago.

My problem with the Exquisites is they cost like 8x what a 30/36 does. If going that route I’d just rock a Staff of Battle for like 500p and give up a bit of dps.

[bigjeff100]

I use a staff of battle for dps on my 55 Warrior still.. I sometimes use a Wurmy/Balanced velium warsword too.. Staff of battle and my wurmy.. 2 weapons i just can't seem to get rid of haha.

[Ruhtar]

2-handers and slower 1-handers without procs are your best bets for dps weapons. As Femm said, Staff of Battle is a great option and is really cheap compared to others around the same ratio. If you don't care about fashionquest, stay away from velium weapons or anything that drops from a dragon that costs way more than it should.

[Zoggren]

I was hoping for some fancy answer I've never heard, but I guess Staff of Battle is the best I can do unless I want to spend some serious plat.

[Snaggles]

You can do the math per your level (damage bonus) to see if say a Seb Croaking Dirk/Winter's Fury would outdamage a Staff of Battle. I'm sure later in the high 50's it would be close but for duo/solo work I still think a fairly slow 2h is going to shine even if less consistent.

The real question is per your level if 10k worth of duel-wielding is going to out-dmg a 500p stick.

[Troxx]

I wouldn’t worry about it that much. You’re going to spend the majority of your time tanking and therefore (hopefully at least for the sake of your group) using your aggro weapons. Having a good dps setup is more important for on raids. By the time you reach that level of play you’ll have access to raid 2handers.

Until then staff of battle is sufficient.

For now I’d invest in untility gear and 34% or higher haste (if you don’t already have). 2x blood points, snare whip, truncheon of doom.

[Sonderbeast]

I think an etched velium warhammer (11/20) and crafted velium warsword (10/18) are pretty nice for dps if you're looking to buy. The hammer is like 3.5k and the warsword goes for somewhere around 6k so kinda in your price range.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

I use a staff of battle for dps on my 55 Warrior still.. I sometimes use a Wurmy/Balanced velium warsword too.. Staff of battle and my wurmy.. 2 weapons i just can't seem to get rid of haha.

This. There's no reason to spend anything more if you don't have hundreds of thousands of platinum laying around.

Price per performance, nothing beats Staff of Battle.

[Arkanjil]

Gnoll Hide Lariats...do it!

[Sonderbeast]

Staff of battle is boring

[skarlorn]

Staff of battle is God's gift to warrior kind

[smitho1984]

Primal Velium Warsword/Blade of Carnage

[Doujou]

If your wanting to go 1h for your dps instead of the suggested SoBattle, in that price range a Crafted Velium Warsword (10/18) and a Winter's Fury (13/25) is a great combo. Taking full use of your damage bonus in MH and a great OH that's also not super expensive and +6str never hurts.

A lot of people also forget about the Fist of Zek (16/30) as a great OH and gives +20str. For the cost of 300-400plat, that's hard to beat as well.

[ScruffMacBuff]

I've seen slow 2 handers mentioned a couple times in this thread, but fast 2 handers are where it's at. If you can find a carved dragon bone spear for sale then it might be worth the buy. Faster delay means more double attack triggers. If you've got good haste then a staff of battle is gonna be great for the price though.

[ScruffMacBuff]

Go on

[Doujou]

I've seen slow 2 handers mentioned a couple times in this thread, but fast 2 handers are where it's at. If you can find a carved dragon bone spear for sale then it might be worth the buy. Faster delay means more double attack triggers. If you've got good haste then a staff of battle is gonna be great for the price though.

I wouldn't use the spear. As a Warrior, our Piercing skill doesn't cap out like Slash/Blunt do, so stick to those 2 types for DPS weps.

[MagpieRockyl]

Go on

because if you have fast weapon that does x dps before double attack and slow weapon that also does x dps before double attack, when you factor in the extra dps from the extra dps from double attack at a rate of m both weapons will do mx Dps.

Streuth!

[ScruffMacBuff]

because if you have fast weapon that does x dps before double attack and slow weapon that also does x dps before double attack, when you factor in the extra dps from the extra dps from double attack at a rate of m both weapons will do mx Dps.

Streuth!

This is assuming the extra dps from double attack would be equal for both weapons.

[kruptcy]

This is assuming the extra dps from double attack would be equal for both weapons.

It's assuming the double attack rate will be equal for both weapons, not the dps from double attack.

I think a better example would be this:

weapon 1 does x dps before double attack.
weapon 2 does y dps before double attack.

x > y

double attack chance = m, m > 0.

therefore,

mx > my

It stands to reason whichever weapon has higher dps before double attack will also have higher dps after double attack.

[Throndor]

It's algebraic:

A= Base DPS from single Swing
a= %chance to double attack

So if weapon 1 is 10dps as a 1/10 weapon, and the chance to double attack is 10% then DPS =
10x(10x0.1) = 11

Now, if weapon 2 is 10dps as a 2/20 weapon, and the chance to double attack is 10%, then DPS =
10x(10x0.1) = 11

Now, with that said, if the ratios of fast two hander, and slow two hander are the same, but the damage BONUS of the items is the same, then you will generate more DPS out of the faster weapon, because damage bonus is an flat additive bonus to the weapon on hit.

So if weapon 1 is 10/30 with 10 damage bonus:
Base hit dmg ranges 10-20 with a damage bonus 10 = 20-30 dmg range (25avg) / 30 delay = 0.8333 dmg/delay

and if weapon 2 is 20/60 with 10 dmg bonus:
Base hit dmg ranges 20-40 with a damage bonus of 10 = 30-50 dmg range (40 avg)/ 60 delay = 0.6667 dmg/delay

Numbers above are simplified, but portray the general story of how ratio + bonus is considered.

[ScruffMacBuff]

You gotta take into consideration the damage bonus and haste as well.

Case Study!

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 32/36 = .889
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 25/30 = .833

According to the table linked, the damage bonus for the Zweihander at level 60 is 31, and 29 for the Spear making their damage 63 and 54 respectively. Before the bonus is accounted for, the Zweihanders 32 damage is 28% greater than the spear, but with the bonus figured in it drops that figure to ~16%. This closes the gap on the ratio significantly.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/36 = 1.75
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/30 = 1.8

Now haste. I don't think it's too aggressive to say this guy might have good haste if he's got epics and Swiftblade of Zek, so let's just work with a capped haste for the sake of discussion. The new delay on the Exquisite becomes 18, and 15 for the spear.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/18 = 3.5
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/15 = 3.6

The attack rating difference due to the spear being a piercer is another problem altogether. Maybe the speed doesn't create as many more double attack opportunities as I thought, but the ratio alone isn't everything.

Edit - I was typing this as you guys were responding.

[kruptcy]

You gotta take into consideration the damage bonus and haste as well.

Case Study!

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 32/36 = .889
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 25/30 = .833

According to the table linked, the damage bonus for the Zweihander at level 60 is 31, and 29 for the Spear making their damage 63 and 54 respectively. Before the bonus is accounted for, the Zweihanders 32 damage is 28% greater than the spear, but with the bonus figured in it drops that figure to ~16%. This closes the gap on the ratio significantly.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/36 = 1.75
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/30 = 1.8

Now haste. I don't think it's too aggressive to say this guy might have good haste if he's got epics and Swiftblade of Zek, so let's just work with a capped haste for the sake of discussion. The new delay on the Exquisite becomes 18, and 15 for the spear.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/18 = 3.5
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/15 = 3.6

The attack rating difference due to the spear being a piercer is another problem altogether. Maybe the speed doesn't create as many more double attack opportunities as I thought, but the ratio alone isn't everything.


All of our posts are considering DPS, not ratio, so the bonus will have already been taken into account.

[aaezil]

That table you linked goes up to lvl 65 and probably contains info for after they buffed 2handers, so i would ignore it.

And about the 2h vs dw discussion... Its dual weild for better dps not even close unless you’re talking reaver or other end game 2handers. The person who mentioned more damage bonus hits with fast 1 hander was right on the money this spikes dps ahead of most 2handers.

If you dont believe me for whatever dumb reason get and use a parser, i use gamparse.

[ScruffMacBuff]

That table you linked goes up to lvl 65 and probably contains info for after they buffed 2handers, so i would ignore it.

AFAIK the 2h buff doesn't effect the damage bonus, but they mess with the calculations so you don't see as many as many 60-70 damage hits mixed in with the 150-200 damage hits.

[MagpieRockyl]

Are ALS allowed to retain non classic mathematics knowledge? Are they only permitted to learn algebra from guild mates?

Double attack is a simple multiplier. Instead of doing1 hit you do 2.

Doubling dps of one weapon and another will have the same proportional effect as another x:y is the same ratio as 2x:2y, mate.

[ScruffMacBuff]

Forgive me! Don't tell Rainik I overstepped!

I know the math seems like it should be as simple as you're making it but we haven't even talked about accuracy and more importantly, the range of numbers each hit could land for which favors lower damage weapons simply because they have a higher chance of hitting in the top end of their range. That's what makes dual wielding so much more consistent. Faster attacks with a smaller range of possible outcomes for each hit.

[Throndor]

You gotta take into consideration the damage bonus and haste as well.

Case Study!

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 32/36 = .889
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 25/30 = .833

According to the table linked, the damage bonus for the Zweihander at level 60 is 31, and 29 for the Spear making their damage 63 and 54 respectively. Before the bonus is accounted for, the Zweihanders 32 damage is 28% greater than the spear, but with the bonus figured in it drops that figure to ~16%. This closes the gap on the ratio significantly.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/36 = 1.75
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/30 = 1.8

Now haste. I don't think it's too aggressive to say this guy might have good haste if he's got epics and Swiftblade of Zek, so let's just work with a capped haste for the sake of discussion. The new delay on the Exquisite becomes 18, and 15 for the spear.

Exquisite Velium Zweihander: 63/18 = 3.5
Carved Dragonbone Spear: 54/15 = 3.6

The attack rating difference due to the spear being a piercer is another problem altogether. Maybe the speed doesn't create as many more double attack opportunities as I thought, but the ratio alone isn't everything.

Edit - I was typing this as you guys were responding.


The math here is wrong because weapon damage is a damage type that is multiplied by the player's Strength/Attack rating, whereas Bonus Damage is an additive stat that adds a flat number to the final calculation:

For sake of clarity, lets say every 50 STR = a potential 1x modifier on the weapon's damage stat as it pertains to the max hit.

In this example a 20 dmg 40 delay weapon with 30 damage bonus would factor out as such on a 250 str warrior:

20(weapon damage)x(250/50)Strength= 100dmg + 30(damage bonus) = Max hit non-crit of 130/40dly = 3.25dmg/delay when the warrior rolls a 19 and hits for max (a roll of 20 being a crit)

Example 2: 40 dmg/80 delay weapon with 35 dmg bonus on a 250 STR warrior:

40(weapon damage) x (250/50)STR = 200dmg +35(damage bonus) = Max hit non-crit of 235/80dly = 2.9375 dmg/delay when the warrior rolls a 19 and hits for max.

Conversely, if we look at minimum hits (1dmg+damage bonus) the minimum hit on the first weapon would be 31 dmg for 40dly or 0.775 dmg/delay

whereas the minumum hit for the 2nd weapon (1dmg + dmg bonus) works out to 36 dmg with 80 delay = 0.45 dmg/delay


The game does not treat the base damage of the weapon the same way it does damage bonus. Base weapon damage is used in the Damage-Interval portion of the damage equation, which is multiplied times the STR/Attack multiplier, whereas the damage bonus is a flat additive bonus.

It's kind of like the Celsius to Farenheit conversion formula:

C = 5/9F(damage interval rolled against a 20 sided die) +32(damage bonus; a flat always added number never multiplied)

[ScruffMacBuff]

Thanks for that. It looks I'd been misinformed on how that works in the past.

After work I'll apply this formula to some weapons to prove or disprove my stance.

[Throndor]

Yep, likewise when it comes to tanking. AC can increase the likelihood that you mitigate the damage interval of a mob's damage output, but nothing mitigates the mob's Damage Bonus (until the Shielding mod2 is introduced which has a cap of 35% damage BONUS mitigation.

As such, you will note the most challenging raid bosses of this expansion are the ones which have the highest damage bonus stat, and not so much their damage interval.

I mean, sure, it sucks to get hit by a big damage interval, but if you're adequately raid geared for teh encounter max hits should be fairly infrequent. its far better to tank a mob that has a max hit of 400 (20DI of 20 dmg) with zero damage bonus (minimum damage = 1DI or 20), than it is to tank a mob that hits for 350, with 150 of that damage being "damage bonus" because then the minimum hit is 150+10 = 160

In the above scenario if the tank in question were at the adequate AC level, they would see an almost even distribution of the damage table, with mob1 seeing an average hit 210 (perfect distribution of a damage range of 20 to 400 = (20+400)/2, and mob 2 seeing an average hit of 255 (perfect distribution of a damage range of 160 to 350 being (160+350)/2)

As we see in the above damage, mob2 hits for 12.5% less max hit, but is pumping out %21.5 more damage because 42.9% of its max damage potential is unmitigatable Damage Bonus vs mob1 having zero damage bonus but 14.3% more maximum damage potential.

[Throndor]

In sum, Damage bonus is nice, because when you're fighting uphill (i.e. against a mob that has a significant AC advantage over your attack rating <i.e. Highest tier raid targets from current expansion>) your damage bonus becomes more meaningful, as demonstrated in the counter-relevant tanking post above.

However, when your dealing with a mob that your Attack rating vs mob ac rating puts you on the higher end of the hit distribution range (i.e. raid bosses nearing obsolescence, or in-era raid bosses which are fully debuffed with ac-debuffs <cripple, nec/enchanter DoT line, Druid AC debuff) you will do better prioritizing base weapon damage over damage bonus.

Likewise, when tanking AC > HP in most cases, except for perhaps AoW, or any other raid mobs that the devs have specifically tuned to have an attack rating so high that current itemization cannot push the mob toward the bottom of its damage interval table (barring the addition of aoe non-physical damage types from AOE/DDs)

Without actually being or extensively parsing the tanking of a top-end raid tank on this server, I cant really advise on how Sirken has tuned the top-end raid content on this server on an Attack vs AC standpoint, nor can i provide specific examples of the ratio of said raid bosses DI:DB ratio.

(AoW was a notoriously high attack rating raid boss in era which is why it took guilds so long to bring him down with tanks frequently being two-rounded and sometimes even 1-rounded while tanking him because of the frequency at which they ate max damage rounds)

I can say that in later expansions on live, the devs do less "mega attack" raid bosses , and instead of bolstering raidboss attack power to unimitigably high values, they just increase the ratio of damage bonus to damage interval so that raid bosses have a reliable minimum damage output capability which sets the bar for healing/tanking reqs with "lucky rounds" being much less frequent.

[ScruffMacBuff]

After doing some research I found an old thread showing some research into an accurate formula for damage calculations. The formula shown was:

[((Weapon Skill + Strength)/100) * (DMG)) + (Level Damage Bonus)]

I used this formula with the damage bonuses from the chart I linked earlier (which someone fairly suggested I ignore) with the damage for the same weapons as before (Exquisite Velium Zweihander and Carved Dragonbone Spear) and found the max damage for both as follows:

Exquisite Velium Zweihander - 193.24
Carved Dragonbone Spear - 155.75

Now I only own one of these weapons so I could only cherry pick one parse, but I attached a screenshot of some combined fights in SG the other night where my max hit was 183 with the Zweihander, and a minimum hit of 20. Since the minimum hit formula is simply 1+Damage Bonus, this suggests the damage bonus is incorrect on the chart. I should conduct more research to figure this out for sure and then compare it to the upgraded numbers after the Chardok 2.0 patch.

Nevertheless, my original point may still stand. That is, faster weapons with ratios similar to their slower counterparts should still do more dps. If I reduce the damage bonus in the forumla by 10 to match the actual results and divide by my hasted (41%) delay you get max hit ratios of:

Exquisite Velium Zweihander - 7.17 [Max hit (183.24)/hasted delay (25.53)]
Carved Dragonbone Spear - 7.32 [Max hit (155.75)/hasted delay (21.27)]

What to make of all this? /shrug

I don't have a carved dragonbone spear to test and there's some conjecture in here. You guys seem to be better at math than me. We ALS and our self sufficient education can't cut it in the real world.

[ScruffMacBuff]

Yeah that would affect the overall attack rating, but not by much. I know mine doesn't drop much when I put infestation in the offhand.

[Ezrick]

I'm not even going to say what I am using right now, but I'll just say that they cost less than 800p combined. What are some good suggestions to spend my hard earned big boy points on for some deeps while I'm playing rogue jr? I have around 10k to spend, but I don't need to spend it all and I don't care about fashion quest either. I have some ideas, like exquisite weapons and Winters Fury, but I'd like other ideas and feedback. Thanks ahead of time for your wisdom! Cheers!

On a budget, nothing beats a good, old fashioned, jade mace in the main hand. Winter's Fury is gotten fairly cheap as an off hand weapon. Use your extra pp to invest in resist gear :)