Camps or no camps [Archive]

JDFriend99

11-05-2018, 12:04 PM

Greetings,

Not short but bitter. (Skip if you don't care)

I have played on this server for approximately 9 years and during that time one thing is never changed. A player's ability to try to grief other players by demanding camps or spawns because they're online and they want it. I have continually argued with players online, even involved GM's and had a few people banned. I would like to have as many people as possible post under this comment, and give a consensus that's how you feel about the server and how Camp rules are being observed or disregarded. I have always known our play nice policy and read the EULA agreement when playing this game. I have generally understood it to be either camps determined by the zone or buy a static spawn mob, meaning the mob does not run around in path. If the mob roams and paths generally it has been a first to engage. I would like one of the developers or controllers of the server to get involved in this post and also become involved online and enforcing once again the rules of the server. We are a community of players who are quite frankly Fed Up with allowing players to get away with their version of the rules to maintain a server population. (End my version)

I now share the link to the play nice policy still currently listed as of November 5th, 2018.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132299

If this is out of date as some have argued with me then I call upon the acting GM Sirken or Rogean to amend or replace this article with current rules of the server to be the end all be all of in game tolerances. There should be no gray area in a virtual world, we have enough of that in our own lives. Thanks to all of you especially our server architects and regulators as they work hard at what they do.

Those of you who are new or maybe inherit accounts and aren't familiar we do have rules, I cite them everyday when I'm online it seems and enough is enough. I'm not paid to help out or do anything I do, I simply do it because it is right and many online are wrong in how they play and who they defile with their actions. Please read the rules and post as you see fit. Agree or disagree. I want to see who likes rules as they are and who wants it changed. It's time for action and if change is needed to ensure a enjoyed experience by all then so be it. Give your thoughts.

Many and I mean many, of us are done governing for ourselves and getting upset when we are challenged or grieved by a few. Those few need to be watched and dealt with when a petition is sent.

Tluth (necro guardian of those that can't fight)

azeth

11-05-2018, 01:11 PM

The most heated drama fests occur because people forget this line:

"That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off"

That means if you wipe at a camp, and I swoop in - you lose and can't say a damn thing about it. Clearly that conflicts with the soft Play Nice Policy. But thats the "rule"...

loramin

11-05-2018, 01:18 PM

I would like one of the developers or controllers of the server to get involved in this post and also become involved online and enforcing once again the rules of the server. We are a community of players who are quite frankly Fed Up with allowing players to get away with their version of the rules to maintain a server population. (End my version)

I know this isn't a "demand", but whenever someone is like "I want a staff member to respond to me", they have like a 1 in 3 chance (if that) of some kind soul like Llandris doing so. Not saying it won't happen, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

I have generally understood it to be either camps determined by the zone or buy a static spawn mob, meaning the mob does not run around in path. If the mob roams and paths generally it has been a first to engage.

First off, I think your understanding is close, but a bit off. The rules, as I understand them, are that outdoors you can "camp" (prevent another player from taking) a single spawn point. It doesn't matter whether the mob is static or dynamic: if you kill something, and are waiting at its spawn point when it respawns, no one else can take it. But, like many things here, there are certain special cases (eg. Stormfeather and Quillmane).

You can of course also kill mobs from multiple spawn points, but then if someone else comes along, you get to pick one spawn point to keep. Then, the newcomer gets one spawn point, and any remaining spawn points are FTE (First to Engage: whoever agroes the mob first gets it).

Indoors the rules are basically the same, but the staff might grant "camp" status to multiple spawn points, IF they are in line of sight of each other (and generally only when they're in the same room). However, there's no way for sure to know whether a staff member will grant such a camp until someone petitions. This is by design: the staff specifically doesn't want to be constrained by past rulings (eg. if Bob is acting like a jerk they might not let him camp two mobs, but if Fred was being polite and George the rude player comes along they might grant Fred three mobs that are together).

Now, with that explanation out of the way, it seems to me that the rules on this server are ... not optimized. To document this I started http://wiki.project1999.com/Rules, which details the many, many pages where "the rules" are listed. And that's just the (many copies of the) officially listed rules: there's also one off rulings and rules explanations made by staff members here in the forums (those 1 in 3 cases I mentioned).

Some day (and I have many wiki "irons in the fire", so this day may never come) I hope to combine all of those many rules page into a single page, and then lobby the staff to use it instead of the many disparate rule sources we currently have. But until I (or someone else) does that huge amount of work, and then successfully lobbies the staff, our current system of nine (plus) different rules posts, plus explanation of those rules in random staff posts, is just the way it is here.

aaezil

11-05-2018, 01:56 PM

There currently are too few/insufficient “camp” rules which has led to people making up their own camp rules and or not understanding current rules (dont blame them - most current rulings on different camps like lucan/sf/lodi are scattered in 9 years of forum posts) and thus arguments constantly breaking out + un-needed petitions. In dire need of repair here.

Danth

11-05-2018, 01:57 PM

Ghostly

11-05-2018, 02:10 PM

Make sure to vote tomorrow!

Legidias

11-05-2018, 02:33 PM

My only issue is the lack of time frame for leaving a mob up. There's been several threads about this.

NegaStoat

11-05-2018, 02:54 PM

My only issue is the lack of time frame for leaving a mob up. There's been several threads about this.

Agreed on this one. I personally take screenshots with /time in the chat scroll along with the combat scroll in a different window showing full mob spawns up for 6 and a half to 7 minutes, and then start pulling. Camps have to be actively maintained with a presence and spawns being killed. If a player ever wants to dispute this in game, I'll cheerfully report back with how it turns out.

Ghostly

11-05-2018, 02:57 PM

Agreed on this one. I personally take screenshots with /time in the chat scroll along with the combat scroll in a different window showing full mob spawns up for 6 and a half to 7 minutes, and then start pulling. Camps have to be actively maintained with a presence and spawns being killed. If a player ever wants to dispute this in game, I'll cheerfully report back with how it turns out.

Pictures are not a valid form of proof in these types of disputes, FYI.

NegaStoat

11-05-2018, 03:00 PM

Pictures are not a valid form of proof in these types of disputes, FYI.
Good to know. I'll switch over to using OBS then for such instances. And for the record, I'll always attempt to engage a person at the fully spawned camp in a conversation rather than stay silent and then swoop in. For all anyone knows, the poor soul might have eaten at Panda Express and is having an extended personal emergency in the bathroom. Decency states and effort at least has to be made, I'd think.

Teppler

11-05-2018, 05:57 PM

Rules can be very nuanced and hard to understand... most people don't 'get them' and have their own ideas.

Often times rules conflict. There's past precedences. On top of that, at the end of the day it will come down to a judgement call by a GM.

Play nice policy is something people personally define. To me it means a few things-
1-making an effort with the other party that is challenging the camp. This means discussing the rules with them and using evidence. Keeping a dialogue going until it's clear that there's varying viewpoints that isn't going to be resolved. When a GM gets involved, I don't think it's a good look to be the party that is shutting down reasonable conversation.
2- Giving people time to get their spawns. I am very lenient with this. If someone lets something pop I usually give them at least 3 mins or so before I ask them 'whats up'.

Any time I've had to deal with a GM I've respected the decision and I don't really disagree with the judgement they've used in my cases.

Busher

11-05-2018, 11:51 PM

For all anyone knows, the poor soul might have eaten at Panda Express and is having an extended personal emergency in the bathroom.

I'm camping Panda Express. Chick-fil-A may be open if Eratani isn't camping it. :D

beargryllz

11-06-2018, 06:15 AM

Bush blew up the towers to fund Halliburton on an ill-advised expedition to plunder West Asia

Swish2

11-06-2018, 06:21 AM

Rules can be very nuanced and hard to understand... most people don't 'get them' and have their own ideas.

There's rules and there's "rules" (ie - my interpretation vs yours)

One thing that's also certain, people want more rules while being equally frustrated about how rules are used against them.

wagorf

11-06-2018, 06:44 AM

Teppler

11-06-2018, 07:26 AM

so u wiped at a camp, return after 3 min and find someone else at camp claiming it

who's the ass here? is it you for asking for ur camp back, or the dude who follows the rule and claims it because u wiped

play by the rule and get called an ass, or be an ass and play the "place nice card" and try to bend the rule

I don't think you should have expectations of keeping a camp if you wiped and someone else wants it. However, it is a nice turn for the other person to give leeway. Simple as that I think.

JDFriend99

11-06-2018, 10:24 AM

Now, with that explanation out of the way, it seems to me that the rules on this server are ... not optimized. To document this I started http://wiki.project1999.com/Rules, which details the many, many pages where "the rules" are listed. And that's just the (many copies of the) officially listed rules: there's also one off rulings and rules explanations made by staff members here in the forums (those 1 in 3 cases I mentioned).

Some day (and I have many wiki "irons in the fire", so this day may never come) I hope to combine all of those many rules page into a single page, and then lobby the staff to use it instead of the many disparate rule sources we currently have. But until I (or someone else) does that huge amount of work, and then successfully lobbies the staff, our current system of nine (plus) different rules posts, plus explanation of those rules in random staff posts, is just the way it is here.

I'd love to see you or someone get some involvement. Of course this is the end all be all dispute of raid targets and casual plat camps alike. But it's beyond time someone does something about it when it's occurring. No more tisk tisk and they do it again. A warning, and a ban. I once looted a raid item because I was in attendance and told it was OK by my group. 30 min later I had msgs from menden on my apt asking me to give it back and that I was receiving a ban for 7 days via rules are rules. I feel that was garbage because I did show my cause and gave it back, and still remained banned. I think if rules are rules then everyone should get handled the dame and not allow some to go on doing as they wish. If you can draw attention to this everold issue then the server thanks you.

JDFriend99

11-06-2018, 10:26 AM

Thank you all for getting involved in posting your feelings and your Pole

JDFriend99

11-06-2018, 10:38 AM

Curious: What camps are you doing, on what class, that you're so constantly encountering problems with other players? I ask because your experience is vastly different than my own. I run into camp disputes only a handful of times a year, and mostly they're resolved by working it out with the other party. Are you mostly hanging around in popular and well-traveled areas?

I'm not disputing your own experience so much as I want to know where to avoid.

Danth

Hi most commonly anywhere involving cash in wakening lands. I do a good job of holding down mobs on my necro and can if I saw to it hold down 8-10 at a time. I chose to hold 4-8, to be kind. Or 4'sentients or 6 sentients. The fights come when people jump into camps and start killing because they either just logged in " quote/unquote" from work, or entered zone and didn't bother to CC (camp check) likes been done for 20yrs. Generally we try to send tell and say hey bud this is camped. The fight begins the moment the reply is Huh? Idc! LoL or O.o or w/e.

A simple " oh. I'm sorry I didn't see you there would be OK". But the arrogant assumption they are beyond rules cause Meth told me so makes the fight go on a lot longer then needed until someone dies or the rare chance a guide shows up and enforces a rule..

And yes I mean Meth cause these asshats have to be 8 yrs old or on Meth to not know how to act. Either way needs correction.

It's any damn camp that is challenged by someone that feels they want it and came late. That's all. If a person wanted to stay on a camp for 7 yrs and never sleep they could, it's their right. Not someone else's cause they have a lunch break or aka boxing and have time to camp a mob and want yours. If it's taken, you move the hell on or log off. All there is to it. That is an end all be all of a rule. Constitute if it's up and no one is there killing it or no one replies to Cc or you waited time for them to reply from AFK, you can take it, if it's camped and they are actively killing or talking to you, you cannot.

JDFriend99

11-06-2018, 10:41 AM

I'm being mostly comical in my post above. But some people do need to throw the pipe away.

JDFriend99

11-06-2018, 10:47 AM

I'm camping Panda Express. Chick-fil-A may be open if Eratani isn't camping it. :D

I miss eratani in game. Hope she isn't camping chik-fil-a . What a stupid name too chik fil a. Odd things work well.

kruptcy

11-06-2018, 10:55 AM

Hi most commonly anywhere involving cash in wakening lands. I do a good job of holding down mobs on my necro and can if I saw to it hold down 8-10 at a time. I chose to hold 4-8, to be kind. Or 4'sentients or 6 sentients. The fights come when people jump into camps and start killing because they either just logged in " quote/unquote" from work, or entered zone and didn't bother to CC (camp check) likes been done for 20yrs.

I have been on the other side of this, going into a fully spawned sentient camp in WL to have some necro or wizard or druid freak out halfway through my clear of the camp saying they were invis there and I stole their camp.

Also, CCs just give others the opportunity to call camps that they are traveling to and aren't there yet, or that they want to take just because no one called it in the CC.

The rules are pretty clear, you have to keep the mobs down in the camp and engage within a minute or two of pop, and you have to maintain a physical presence at the camp at all times. If you are off selling, or are afk for 15 mins and let the mobs respawn, it's not your camp anymore.

That being said, I usually acquiesce to the raging players that are saying the camp is there just to avoid the drama.

Tethler

11-06-2018, 10:39 PM

The rules are pretty clear, you have to keep the mobs down in the camp and engage within a minute or two of pop, and you have to maintain a physical presence at the camp at all times. If you are off selling, or are afk for 15 mins and let the mobs respawn, it's not your camp anymore.

Pretty sure this part is incorrect. You don't need to maintain a physical presence as long as you return in time for respawn. Though you may have more people contesting you if they roll up and you aren't sitting there. If the mobs are down, I'm fairly certain they have no standing to steal your camp.

If you go to sell (without leaving the zone) it doesn't forfeit your camp.

3 things cause loss of camp: Letting respawns sit up, dying, zoning out.

That said, people can be douches and contest you. The camp holder gets first choice of spawn and the challenger gets second. I've never once had this occur with me, but maybe at better cash camps, people actually resort to this type of behavior.

aaezil

11-06-2018, 10:41 PM

Its already happening in this thread. People arent clear on the rules and there are two sep “interpretations” listed above. Needs fixin’.

Tethler

11-06-2018, 10:43 PM

Its already happening in this thread. People arent clear on the rules and there are two sep “interpretations” listed above. Needs fixin’.

Agree, haha.

JDFriend99

11-08-2018, 12:14 PM

Its already happening in this thread. People arent clear on the rules and there are two sep “interpretations” listed above. Needs fixin’.

My point precisely aaezil, I did this intentionally to show my version of reading camp definements and to encourage input and get other views. Obviously we had what 15 or so players chime in. Out of the 800-1200 so called legit single accounts that the server shows. 15 of us and there's 7 different views of camp rules. Imagine how the other 500 players feel.

And there's probably only 500. Cause the others are guild boxes.

We need a huge ass overhaul of rules or some form of interaction or remove it and let us do as we see fit. Can't be one way then tomorrow it's a different story. That's not a rule it's a suggestion and play nice now appears to be a suggestion. Never heard of getting in trouble for breaking suggestions. I impose suggestion police now, Incase some violates a suggested use... got us thinking anywho. :eek:

JDFriend99

11-08-2018, 12:17 PM

Joking aside, we need some staff literature correction as well as a clear concise end all be all ruleset and punishment is such. No OK you receive a 24 ban, so and so gets 7 days, this dude gets 30... oh wait no he can come back in 72 hrs. No more. You make a rule, enforce it, or we do as we see fit I guess.

JDFriend99

11-08-2018, 12:28 PM

I play as Tluth. I'm pretty pro-rules because I'm sick of them serving one guy but hurting others. This is why I act up and challenge people, because asking anyone else to is asking to much. Some of you see me as a jerk or too hard or crazy as I'm always called. I'm not crazy, I am a jerk. And I'll always back up the little guy that has no voice cause you tell him not to. I'll stand toe to toe until a decision is made, but I will definitely never concede to bullies or end game pixel pushers.

I encourage a guide or GM to show up and handle the situations we make in game, but given its a 2-8% chance, guess I'll do my best to act like one and help people play the way they wanna play cause they are entitled to everything the bully thinks he or she is. They play the same server, same classes same zones. You all wanna be someone's aren't anyone more important then them. And this is the sole reason I pipe up rather then down.

Give us interaction with staff and clear lines to follow and then maybe I wouldn't have to speak up and can play my own game without issues.

Love you all for giving your input. I would love more to see some of you speak up and ask for GM or server side guidelines to be addressed. I'd encourage you all to do as I do, if you see issues in game and they aren't being addressed then speak up. All too many are afraid they will get noticed or in trouble for it. You cannot get in any trouble for expressing a view or for trying to correct wrong doings. Have faith, don't be them, be different and try to play legit and you will get more from the game then just pixel plats.

JDFriend99

11-08-2018, 12:35 PM

I get upset a lot in game, but I really do only want equality for the community, cooperation amongst guilds to get things done as we do. And for players to never type to me again "I've had enough buddy, this game has become more stress then good, I'm out bro... love ya" and never see them again. I've had this happen too many times 9 yrs to current. It should never happen and if others gave a sheeit it wouldn't. Keeping good people here over loot and plat should be #1. There's many of you that feel as I do, play for fun could not care less about winning x item etc. But you don't speak up, you truly need to. If all you have is your voice and your own mind, then use it.

Thank you all. Please try hard to remember, in the end, it's just us and what we make it.

Jimjam

11-08-2018, 12:43 PM

Multiple paragraphs
Are possible to be
Divulged in a single post.

katrik

11-08-2018, 12:52 PM

I’m mostly interested in what would happen if the mods took a step back. Especially the raid scene. Which I believe they’ve threatened to do several times.

loramin

11-08-2018, 01:14 PM

I’m mostly interested in what would happen if the mods took a step back. Especially the raid scene. Which I believe they’ve threatened to do several times.

They should do it for just a single day (or maybe week). The P99 Purge! ;)

Bardp1999

11-08-2018, 02:09 PM

Lots can go wrong when you are not actually clearing content and instead pulling dragons to the zone line. No CSR support would likely lead to raid forces camping on top of spawn locations and massive ninja looting fests.

jazzman_so_fresh

11-11-2018, 02:50 PM

I have no theories or laws in my head, but here is what I think:
- one bard in DN getting upset you are killing 5 of the 21 spiders because he has them all camped... Bad.
- one person claiming 6s in WL... Okay
- a twink killing half of the hhk goblins is bad, but if a second group wants to form, well, there is no such thing as camping 20 mobs.

Orc 1 and 2... Those are literal camps with campfires!

fastboy21

11-11-2018, 04:02 PM

You can't write rules that will force folks to be nice to each other...the best you can hope for is that they act according to the rules and they don't find too many ways to screw each other over.

It's a part of EQ...and it makes EQ a fun game. Occasionally you will get screwed by some jack ass (or even screw someone yourself). You'll also meet people and find out who is genuinely good, shitty, dumb, shady, etc. The mechanics of EQ allow folks to actually get to know each other (for good and for bad)...which is kinda the point of an immersive MMORPG.

In fact, EQ does it much much better than any other game I've really played. You can't throw the bathwater out without chucking the baby. EQ4Life.

Jauna

11-11-2018, 10:03 PM

and people wondered why mmos moved onto instancing

Bristlebaner

11-17-2018, 01:32 PM

I always preferred EQ as a straight free for all. If the game mechanics allow something, then it should be allowed. Don't need to police all this nonsense.

kaev

11-17-2018, 03:41 PM

Multiple paragraphs
Are possible to be
Divulged in a single post.

Wisdom of the ages, this one posts.

kylok

11-17-2018, 09:08 PM

Project 1999 Staff will not be defining what constitutes a camp.

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

This seems quite clear to me.

Toodles

11-20-2018, 04:56 PM

.... we have enough of that in our own lives.

Many and I mean many, of us are done governing for ourselves and getting upset when we are challenged or grieved by a few. Those few need to be watched and dealt with when a petition is sent.

You know what we also have enough of in our own lives..authoritarianism. Been to college lately?

The reason that older games are cherished is because they have character and part of what constitutes that character is the environment for adults to be adults and to come to agreements and arrangements on their own ; where your actions can have actual consequences and a reputation does have weight on a server where people have to interact daily.

It does not always work out, though better to have the option than not and hand over responsibility to a handful of individuals ruling from afar.

The online world is not a safe space and nor should it ever be.
This is something people have forgotten.

I bet if we could coral all the posts by people on matters of disagreements over ethics and mechanics, we'd find most of them were posted by blue players and not red. Go figure.

Tethler

11-20-2018, 11:11 PM

I bet if we could coral all the posts by people on matters of disagreements over ethics and mechanics, we'd find most of them were posted by blue players and not red. Go figure.

Obviously. There are like 7 red players. This thread has posts from more people than the red server's population.

kaev

11-21-2018, 12:43 AM

Obviously. There are like 7 red players. This thread has posts from more people than the red server's population.

aaezil

11-21-2018, 02:00 AM

kylok

11-21-2018, 02:57 AM

Yeah except for the long list of Exceptions....

Would you please list them? I'm having trouble coming up with them on my own.

Mead

11-21-2018, 03:19 AM

Bush blew up the towers to fund Halliburton on an ill-advised expedition to plunder West Asia

Toodles

11-22-2018, 02:41 PM

Obviously. There are like 7 red players. This thread has posts from more people than the red server's population.

Which is precisely why it's telling..

Oh and have you met Swish?

Tethler

11-23-2018, 09:18 PM

Which is precisely why it's telling..

Oh and have you met Swish?

Unsure of the point you're attempting to make

mickmoranis

11-24-2018, 10:47 AM

Obviously. There are like 7 red players. This thread has posts from more people than the red server's population.

In what example in the history of human society do you have where the intelligent community is larger than the non intelligent community?

bomaroast

11-24-2018, 11:41 AM

I've had people in sebilis claim NG all the way to disco bugs. They stated that because they could hold all those mobs down that they were all theirs. Including the 2 bugs that guard disco and the 3 bugs at NG. I logged rather than argue with the guy. But ya

Muggens

11-24-2018, 02:10 PM

I'm being mostly comical in my post above. But some people do need to throw the pipe away.

Im trying ok, cut me some slack

Puluin

11-24-2018, 02:21 PM

If a group of people is 100% holding down kills for a full camp or even a 2nd camp... that should be 100% supported especially if it is a FULL group. This is the spirit of MMO.

However if it's a duo or trio that refuses another member and it is apparent they are stuggling to maintain the camp, I will 100% support them being pestered to relinquish a few mobs until they can 100% keep kills down.

A good example that comes to mind is bards/nobles in HK. The nobles are on a 6min spawn and due to the xp people prefer solo/duo. However if they have so much down time causing the nobles to be up for 5min or longer... this is when a consideration of relinquishing a spawn or inviting another player becomes the better solution.

Otherwise I have zero regrets for downing the nobles while someone is medding up. (Only really OKAY due to short 6min pop times). I would not do this for a longer mob without several attempts of asking "are you going to kill this or what's going on?"