blade of carnage bad at lvl 60?

[wagorf]

i read that this is only good for twinks, wouldn't this also be good for lvl 60s? it's got better ratio than many weapons include epic and vp weapons

equip it when you want to dps, in tanking situations u can put it at offhand and mainhand an aggro? most dps class should know how to lose aggro.

[Freakish]

It's fine at 60. It's just that I would rather have the plat at that level because there's so many comparable obtainable weapons.

[Sonderbeast]

Ya, 100 hp on any 1 hander is awesome at 60. Hands down one of the best offhand weapons for the classes that can use it. Since aggro is managed with clickies you really just need a mainhand aggro weapon to stay on top. I can see it being useful for Knights also if they are trying to push HP over dps (hehe_hehe).

[Solist]

Tip: don't read or listen to shit.

99/100 people who play this game are utter garbage at it, and most people who write about it are generally bad too.

Make your own mind up through testing and evaluation. That would immediately make you in the 1% of people here who talk various schmutz/wiki/guides etc based on 'feel' or 20 year old misconceptions.

[Hibbs]

Tip: don't read or listen to shit.

99/100 people who play this game are utter garbage at it, and most people who write about it are generally bad too.

Make your own mind up through testing and evaluation. That would immediately make you in the 1% of people here who talk various schmutz/wiki/guides etc based on 'feel' or 20 year old misconceptions.

Yikes

[Arkanjil]

Agree with Draconite, its a great offhand with awesome stats at lvl 60. You really just need a main hand proc weapon and clickies for raiding to keep aggro. If you're grouping or doing small raid things like HoT, you'll probably want to use an aggro weapon in your offhand.

If you can get your hands on a Dagas from PoSky, it might be worth it to just sell the BoC and off hand the Dagas. That's totally up to you though!

[Sonderbeast]

Tip: don't read or listen to shit.

99/100 people who play this game are utter garbage at it, and most people who write about it are generally bad too.

Make your own mind up through testing and evaluation. That would immediately make you in the 1% of people here who talk various schmutz/wiki/guides etc based on 'feel' or 20 year old misconceptions.

This is true for me. I self identify as the 99% garbage tier tank. Please consider my constant boner for blue WTOV armor as evidence of my garbage tier level of quality. I would also like to say that Barbarian blue face paint is historically made with the semen of Polar Bears, and that is extremely manly.

Please consider this message from the 99% - eat the rich.

[wagorf]

Agree with Draconite, its a great offhand with awesome stats at lvl 60. You really just need a main hand proc weapon and clickies for raiding to keep aggro. If you're grouping or doing small raid things like HoT, you'll probably want to use an aggro weapon in your offhand.

If you can get your hands on a Dagas from PoSky, it might be worth it to just sell the BoC and off hand the Dagas. That's totally up to you though!

why is dagas better than boc on offhand? both no proc and boc has much better ratio?

[Arkanjil]

why is dagas better than boc on offhand? both no proc and boc has much better ratio?

I never said it was better. They both have 100hp for the offhand which is the only thing that matters. The ratio is worse, but not bad. The melee stats on BoC don't really matter at end game raiding, as most wars will max stam/dex/str with shaman buffs.

That aside, if you had a BoC and Dagas, I personally think you'd be better served selling the BoC and upgrading other slots and use Dagas in OH.

[Dillusional]

why is dagas better than boc on offhand? both no proc and boc has much better ratio?

Dagas has 20ac and the ratio and stats don't really matter for your ability to tank when you would want to use it. Think one tank ToV dragons where 5 charges of midnight mallet are enough.....

[Raev]

I don't understand why AC gets no love here. I guess you don't even hit the softcap until 1500-1600 displayed, and Warriors probably get a 25-30% return even afterwards.

[Arkanjil]

I’ve parsed ac returns here quite in depth. For raid dragons, they largely ignore AC once it is above 1200. 1200 was the magic number. I buff out to 1487 ac and see about the same results in parsing ToV dragons as when I was at 1205. That’s why it doesn’t get love from me.

In groups and even with trash in HoT, you actually do see a difference with higher ac. I’ll dig out the files and post the excel graphs eventually.

[aaezil]

Thats a very good offhand at lvl 60

Whoever informed you otherwise is bad.

[Xaeophi]

wtb revamped boc :D

[Ostepop]

I’ve parsed ac returns here quite in depth. For raid dragons, they largely ignore AC once it is above 1200. 1200 was the magic number. I buff out to 1487 ac and see about the same results in parsing ToV dragons as when I was at 1205. That’s why it doesn’t get love from me.

In groups and even with trash in HoT, you actually do see a difference with higher ac. I’ll dig out the files and post the excel graphs eventually.

Do you have any data on the effects of shield ac?

[Jimjam]

I’ve parsed ac returns here quite in depth. For raid dragons, they largely ignore AC once it is above 1200. 1200 was the magic number. I buff out to 1487 ac and see about the same results in parsing ToV dragons as when I was at 1205. That’s why it doesn’t get love from me.

In groups and even with trash in HoT, you actually do see a difference with higher ac. I’ll dig out the files and post the excel graphs eventually.

Are you saying HoT / WToV mobs may have higher attack score than dragons? That's the only reason I can think of why 1200 would be optimum mitigation for dragons, but not for drake/wurms...

[Xaeophi]

^

[Synthlol]

I don't understand why AC gets no love here. I guess you don't even hit the softcap until 1500-1600 displayed, and Warriors probably get a 25-30% return even afterwards.

Warriors get a 45% return above softcap.

Do you have any data on the effects of shield ac?

Shield AC adds to softcap and worn AC both. So it basically ensure you get 100% AC from a shield, even if you are at your softcap. No reduced AC returns from shields.

This is straight from Haynar.

While he has confirmed that the era-appropriate softcap on total (ie displayed) AC has been implemented, to my knowledge he has never confirmed or denied whether the classic era worn AC hardcap is in place. At its classic values, most players would be hitting the worn AC hardcap once they loot a handful of endgame velious pieces.

[aaezil]

Does orb of infinite void count as shield ac here? Heard multiple accounts of yes/no

[Arkanjil]

Are you saying HoT / WToV mobs may have higher attack score than dragons? That's the only reason I can think of why 1200 would be optimum mitigation for dragons, but not for drake/wurms...

Opposite actually. They have lower attack values, so you see AC having a larger impact on mitigation for HoT/WToV mobs

[Ostepop]

Warriors get a 45% return above softcap.



Shield AC adds to softcap and worn AC both. So it basically ensure you get 100% AC from a shield, even if you are at your softcap. No reduced AC returns from shields.

This is straight from Haynar.

While he has confirmed that the era-appropriate softcap on total (ie displayed) AC has been implemented, to my knowledge he has never confirmed or denied whether the classic era worn AC hardcap is in place. At its classic values, most players would be hitting the worn AC hardcap once they loot a handful of endgame velious pieces.

I was wondering if parses of tanks using a shield vs high end content exists. From my admittedly vague understanding of the way shield ac works, wouldn't it be significant for mitigation in some cases?

[Legidias]

High end content at like lvl 65+ don't give a shit about your mitigation (at least from a difference of 50AC). The level difference basically makes it so they either miss or hit max damage.

[Arkanjil]

[Wed Dec 05 08:20:55 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:55 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 479 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:55 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 704 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:56 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:56 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 344 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:56 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:56 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:56 2018] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:56 2018] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Darkmannx!
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:56 2018] The Avatar of War tries to kick YOU, but misses!
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:58 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:58 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:58 2018] You slash The Avatar of War for 72 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:20:58 2018] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 546 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 524 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Darkmannx!
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:00 2018] The Avatar of War tries to bash YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:01 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:01 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 569 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:01 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 434 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:17 2018] The Avatar of War bashes YOU for 302 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:18 2018] The Avatar of War tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:18 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:18 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 456 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:18 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 591 points of damage.
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:18 2018] The Avatar of War hits YOU for 726 poi
[Wed Dec 05 08:21:18 2018] The Avatar of War executes a FLURRY of attacks on Darkmannx

At 1487ac, here's some rounds from AOW while defensive. 726 is his max hit while defensive.

[Freakish]

Use something that's not AOW. He has the highest attack in game and isn't typical.

[Ostepop]

AoW is not presenting DI20 hits exclusively, so Legidias' statement appears to be incorrect.

[Xaeophi]

Whats the last two pages have to do with blade of carnage

[Arkanjil]

Jorlleag melee

[Thu Dec 06 00:06:01 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 172 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:01 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:01 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 719 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:12 2018] Jorlleag kicks YOU for 182 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:12 2018] Jorlleag tries to claw YOU, but misses!
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:12 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 384 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:12 2018] You pierce Jorlleag for 39 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:12 2018] Jorlleag tries to claw YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:23 2018] Jorlleag tries to claw YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:23 2018] Jorlleag tries to claw YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:23 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:34 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 506 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:34 2018] Jorlleag tries to claw YOU, but misses!
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:34 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 324 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:34 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 202 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:45 2018] Jorlleag tries to kick YOU, but misses!
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:45 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:45 2018] Jorlleag claws YOU for 750 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 00:06:45 2018] Jorlleag tries to claw YOU, but misses!

Vulak Melee

[Thu Dec 06 14:29:19 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 954 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:19 2018] Vulak`Aerr tries to claw YOU, but misses!
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:19 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 596 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:19 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 954 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:31 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 309 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:31 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 739 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:31 2018] Vulak`Aerr tries to claw YOU, but misses!
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:31 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 954 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 954 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] You slash Vulak`Aerr for 73 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr tries to claw YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 810 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr tries to claw YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr tries to claw YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr claws YOU for 488 points of damage.
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr tries to claw YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr executes a FLURRY of attacks on Darkmannx!
[Thu Dec 06 14:29:39 2018] Vulak`Aerr bashes YOU for 284 points of damage.

Here's a few more samples

[Sonderbeast]

That's a lot of damage

[Hibbs]

Here's a few more samples

Now you're just being a show off :D

[Jimjam]

High end content at like lvl 65+ don't give a shit about your mitigation (at least from a difference of 50AC). The level difference basically makes it so they either miss or hit max damage.

Only 50% of hits were max in the examples given, so I guess there was some mitigation...

However, isn't such content clear strategy designed around landing a cheal on the tank every round and hoping for a couple of misses when flurry 'procs'?

Conversely in group content I remember trying to investigate AC while levelling up my ranger. I wanted to see how different races mitigate; it turned out in KC that any 51+ melee took the same average hit of ~78 damage. The only thing that separated melees for tanking was how much hp they had (so how often they needed chealing) and their ratio between hits and misses (their avoidance: largely a product of their defence skill and whether they had block or parry).

It looks like in either context AC is of limited value; it is trivial to accumulate enough AC to tank xp content and in raiding you just want enough hp to survive a worst case scenario round ready for the cheal chain?

[Legidias]

My key point was that 50 AC isnt going to mitigate that much difference against a lvl 65 mob. 1200 AC does.

[Jimjam]

* wanted to see how different classes mitigate... Damn auto correct, right? :rolleyes:

[beargryllz]

That's a lot of damage

I understood this reference

[Naerron]

also does 26 hate per swing in your main hand, something to think about

[Ostepop]

My key point was that 50 AC isnt going to mitigate that much difference against a lvl 65 mob. 1200 AC does.

Are you talking about displayed ac? That number is meaningless.

[Sonderbeast]

But Jim, AC doesn't mitigate max hit, it mitigates the number of times hits are max.

AC === ???

[Jimjam]

@draconite, didn't mean to imply it did...

[Troxx]

It’s a second rate expensive weapon for those who rely on recharging clickies to hold aggro. Discounting clicks, offhand procs represent 1/3 of your total spell/proc based threat. Proc aggro is more significant than white melee threat. A warriors job is firstly to hold aggro. A non proc offhand is 33% less total procs and means you will have to wait up to 33% longer for that first proc to lock down a mob. Offhand difference in whit dmg threat is pretty negligible.

Blade of carnage boasts excellent stats and good dps and white dmg threat (albeit minimal). What it lacks (and using it you may suffer from) is threat generation. If you and your guild always use clickies as a crutch it can work well enough, but in the end you and your guild may suffer.

100hp is a wash with a competent heal crew and defensive.

Trust your gear base and have rock solid aggro. If you died either your overall gear is sub par (less likely) or there was a hiccup your heal chain (much more likely). BoC will fail compared to very cheap buyable alternatives in the threat department.

[Troxx]

also does 26 hate per swing in your main hand, something to think about

26 hate per double attack primary or per single hit? Max haste would be 52 x23 hits a minute = 1200 threat.

Vs a faster 9/18 primary that procs ~900 threat twice a minute (infestation) and drops off a mob I’ve duo’d? That’s 1800 threat procs alone plus a faster weapon (more dmg bonus hate applied) with a not awful ratio.

Something to think about ...?

There is a case to be made for using if offhand, but even then blue epic will yield better overall dmg output results. For mainhaind, there’s not really a smart defensible position. Any number of *bad* tradable aggro weapons from the kunark era generate much more threat primary.

[Pint]

Proccing for aggro is too classic for p99

[Troxx]

I’ve parsed ac returns here quite in depth. For raid dragons, they largely ignore AC once it is above 1200. 1200 was the magic number. I buff out to 1487 ac and see about the same results in parsing ToV dragons as when I was at 1205. That’s why it doesn’t get love from me.

In groups and even with trash in HoT, you actually do see a difference with higher ac. I’ll dig out the files and post the excel graphs eventually.

This is a very common misconception. Bear with me.

My warrior main on live for years was also named Bedavir and I was a raid leader and main tank. For a period of about 18 months I had the serverwide highest ac across all classes. Brael (well known SK on evilgamer) and I spent a stupidly huge amount of time parsing ac. Ac was my baby for a long time and few understood it or tested it more than I did.

With more trivial xp group and raid trash content, ac on live had the ability to so overpower mob attack in the expansions after Gates of Discord expansion content that you’d have to statistically parse thousands of hits to see a single max hit. I had a few parses vs relevant xp mobs that were over an hour long unslowed where there were only 16 hit values - DIs 17-20 just never happened. While you can never truly have a 0% chance of a max hit, you could get it so low you’d practically never see it.

The misconception was that ac is more valuable vs easier mobs, but that isn’t the case. Vs raid targets until SoFaydwer expansion these ac values were still beefy enough relative to mob attack that tanking start to finish I’d routinely (50% of the time) tank a raid boss 100 to dead and never see a DI20 max. After SoF mob attack ramped up and I went back to seeing 20-25% of hits for max DI.

To better understand what I’m about to say, first understand that parsing mob dps does not tell the full picture. Compared to hit distribution, raw dps differences in high and low ac is underwhelming.

Mob average dps does not kill tanks. Let that sink in. Seriously forget about mob dps as it relates to your chance of death. If it does, that’s a problem if insufficient heals. What kills tanks is burst damage, micro-bursts in a short window, and generally when you strike out and get back to back (or triplicate/quadruplicate) bad rounds. That’s where tanks die.

Ac is not less useful on dangerous high attack high hitting mobs - it’s more important. If you have a drop in max hit frequency from 50 to 45% that’s huge. If the mob never misses a 50% DI20 chance means you will get a full max quad 6.25% of the time. At 45% it drops to 4.1% of the time. At 30% it drops to 0.8% of the time.

AC does lower mob dps, but more importantly it exponentially lowers the lethality of the nature of the mobs dmg output. High ac minimizes the dangerous burst potential and makes the incoming damage more level and predictable.

AC isn’t less important on the high impact raid mobs ... it’s more important.

Hope that helps.

[Raev]

Yep. Everyone says 'HP protects you against one round deaths' but AC arguably does so even more effectively. Going from 40% max hits to 30% max hits reduces your chance of being quadded for max from 0.4^4 = 2.5% to 0.3^4 = .8%. That's very significant, because it's those max quads that break your CH chain.

Also, remember that +HP really isn't that effective on a warrior. If you have 6000 HP, then +100 increases your total durability by 1.7%. If 1 AC is worth say 2-3 HP, then 100 raw item AC (not displayed AC) should reduce damage by 5% or so, and that requires parses of thousands of hits. Also, bosses have higher ATK and thus require more AC.

TLDR: I stacked AC on Sakuragi over HP and I don't regret it. If I were more into raiding, I'd be going for something like Alde's build (http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Alde_(Velious)) except with a Palladius' Axe, Orb of the Deep Sea, and Ring of Destruction.