PDA

View Full Version : Joeseph Stack's Suicide Letter


Hasbinbad
02-18-2010, 02:53 PM
This is the Suicide Note of "Joe Stack," the guy who flew the plane into the IRS building. Posted for posterity and discussion.
I have no opinion of this matter yet, so please don't flame me for posting this.
---

If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why did this have to happen?” The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time. The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken. Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it. I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless… especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head. Exactly what is therapeutic about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.
We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy. Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse.
While very few working people would say they haven’t had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.
Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”. It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.
And justice? You’ve got to be kidding!
How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system? Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.
How did I get here?
My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.
The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.
That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”… and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.
Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984 after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of “paying my dues”), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream of becoming an independent engineer.
On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I should digress somewhat to say that I’m sure that I inherited the fascination for creative problem solving from my father. I realized this at a very young age.
The significance of independence, however, came much later during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement. All she had was social security to live on.
In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time. When I got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of me). I was genuinely appalled at one point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I would be “healthier” eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all my substance from peanut butter and bread. I couldn’t quite go there, but the impression was made. I decided that I didn’t trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself.
Return to the early ‘80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a ‘wet-behind-the-ears’ contract software engineer... and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.
For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes. Visit this link for a conference committee report (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport) (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport) regarding the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section 530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services workers and their clients, read our discussion here (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml) (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml).
SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.
(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:
(d) EXCEPTION. - This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.
(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.
Note:
·"another person" is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship.
·"taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop.
·"individual", "employee", or "worker" is you.

Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but it’s not very complicated. The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave. Twenty years later, I still can’t believe my eyes.
During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time. I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity. This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”. Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldn’t bill clients.
After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a futile exercise. The best we could get for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they weren’t going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists). This immediately proved to be a lie, and the mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line; this, of course, was the intended effect.
Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them into idle. If I had any sense, I clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.
Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks. Then came the L.A. depression of the early 1990s. Our leaders decided that they didn’t need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern California, so they were closed; just like that. The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled the widely publicized Texas S&L fiasco. However, because the government caused it, no one gave a shit about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to “shore up” their windfall. Again, I lost my retirement.
Years later, after weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some speed. Then came the .COM bust and the 911 nightmare. Our leaders decided that all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after that, ‘special’ facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for months. This made access to my customers prohibitively expensive. Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars … as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY! After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.
By this time, I’m thinking that it might be good for a change. Bye to California, I’ll try Austin for a while. So I moved, only to find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance and where damn little real engineering work is done. I’ve never experienced such a hard time finding work. The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages… and this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesn’t give a fuck about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.
To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA. This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income. I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out. Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice.
So now we come to the present. After my experience with the CPA world, following the business crash I swore that I’d never enter another accountant’s office again. But here I am with a new marriage and a boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle. After considerable thought I decided that it would be irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.
When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that they were in order. I had taken all of the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar to what I was expecting. Except that he had neglected to include the contents of Sheryl’s unreported income; $12,700 worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I didn’t have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit. By that time it had become brutally evident that he was representing himself and not me.
This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least the tax-related transactions were poorly documented). Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue would ever matter to anyone. The end result is… well, just look around.
I remember reading about the stock market crash before the “great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything. Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”. Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes… isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.
As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone. The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government. Nothing changes unless there is a body count (unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough). In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.
I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand. It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants. I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after. But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change. I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at “big brother” while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual won’t continue; I have just had enough.
I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer. The cruel joke is that the really big chunks of shit at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and using this awareness against, fools like me all along.
I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

Joe Stack (1956-2010)
02/18/2010

Anuril
02-18-2010, 03:05 PM
Wow.. thanks Hasbin, for serious.

L2Phantom
02-18-2010, 03:06 PM
What a fruitcake. He's upset about everything from religion to government, clearly he just failed at life and is trying to blame it on the government for his failure.

Anuril
02-18-2010, 03:09 PM
What a fruitcake. He's upset about everything from religion to government, clearly he just failed at life and is trying to blame it on the government for his failure.

Not passing judgment here, but did you actually read the letter or just skim through it?

Yoite
02-18-2010, 03:51 PM
sounds like 110% truth to me

Malrubius
02-18-2010, 03:57 PM
The dude flew a plane into a building.

L2Phantom
02-18-2010, 03:57 PM
Not passing judgment here, but did you actually read the letter or just skim through it?

Just skimmed it, I'm really not interested in reading someone's thoughts that are willing to kill themselves and other innocents over something so trivial and out of their control.

Aaron
02-18-2010, 04:01 PM
Seems like he got fucked over repeatedly, as have many others. His thoughts have some merit, his actions do not.

Yoite
02-18-2010, 04:02 PM
i wouldnt consider it trivial. just like it effected this guy, it also effects thousands of others, they just dont fly planes into buildings so their voices arent heard or their letters read.

Anuril
02-18-2010, 04:11 PM
Just skimmed it, I'm really not interested in reading someone's thoughts that are willing to kill themselves and other innocents over something so trivial and out of their control.

Unfortunately revolutionary acts often involve violence. I disagree with Stack's violent act, but history tells me that it is one of the best ways to forward a valid point in the face of overwhelming opposition.

Malrubius
02-18-2010, 04:13 PM
i wouldnt consider it trivial. just like it effected this guy, it also effects thousands of others, they just dont fly planes into buildings so their voices arent heard or their letters read.

Right. I'm not going to read his note just because he flew a plane into a building.

In fact, I am going to specifically NOT read his note since he flew a plane into a building.

Hasbinbad
02-18-2010, 04:20 PM
Right. I'm not going to read his note just because he flew a plane into a building.

In fact, I am going to specifically NOT read his note since he flew a plane into a building.
http://www.icis.com/blogs/asian-chemical-connections/035ostrich_468x538.jpg

Anuril
02-18-2010, 04:23 PM
zombie monkey American drone!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_C1EPAkx1iC8/R8ZfF9VlKdI/AAAAAAAAEAI/QEnhVzlxxTE/s400/see+no+evil.jpg

Hasbinbad
02-18-2010, 04:25 PM
The FBI shut down his website, this is the full HTML from http://embeddedart.com/
<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head>


<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 9">
<meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 9">
<link rel="File-List" href="http://embeddedart.com/default_files/filelist.xml">
<title>Well Mr. Big Brother IRS man... take my pound of flesh and sleep well.</title>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>

<o:DocumentProperties>

<o:Author>Joe Stack</o:Author>

<o:LastAuthor>Joe</o:LastAuthor>

<o:Revision>27</o:Revision>

<o:TotalTime>1848</o:TotalTime>

<o:Created>2010-02-16T19:24:00Z</o:Created>

<o:LastSaved>2010-02-18T06:42:00Z</o:LastSaved>

<o:Pages>3</o:Pages>

<o:Words>2676</o:Words>

<o:Characters>15254</o:Characters>

<o:Company>Embedded Art</o:Company>

<o:Lines>127</o:Lines>

<o:Paragraphs>30</o:Paragraphs>

<o:CharactersWithSpaces>18732</o:CharactersWithSpaces>

<o:Version>9.6926</o:Version>

</o:DocumentProperties>

</xml><![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Lucida Console";
panose-1:2 11 6 9 4 5 4 2 2 4;
mso-font-charset:0;
mso-generic-font-family:modern;
mso-font-pitch:fixed;
mso-font-signature:-2147482993 6144 0 0 31 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:swiss;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:-1 -369098753 63 0 4129279 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@Arial Unicode MS";
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;
mso-font-charset:128;
mso-generic-font-family:swiss;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:-1 -369098753 63 0 4129279 0;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.MsoBodyTextIndent, li.MsoBodyTextIndent, div.MsoBodyTextIndent
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;
margin-left:.75in;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:red;}
p.MsoBlockText, li.MsoBlockText, div.MsoBlockText
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:.75in;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;
margin-left:.75in;
text-indent:-.25in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:red;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Lucida Console";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Courier New";}
p.h1, li.h1, div.h1
{mso-style-name:h1;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";}
p.body, li.body, div.body
{mso-style-name:body;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Arial Unicode MS";}
span.owner
{mso-style-name:owner;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:.75in .5in .5in .5in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:2096320806;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-910684046 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0B7;
mso-level-tab-stop:.9in;
mso-level-number-position:left;
margin-left:.9in;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
-->
</style>
</head><body style="" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US" link="blue">

<div class="Section1">

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->&nbsp;<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why
did this have to happen?”<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The simple
truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The writing process, started many months
ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that
there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really
broken.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Needless to say, this rant
could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I find the process of writing it
frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless… especially given my gross
inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in
my head.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Exactly what is therapeutic
about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">We are all taught as children that without laws there would
be no society, only anarchy.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Sadly,
starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe
that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for
justice for all.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>We are further
brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should
be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its
founding fathers.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Remember? One of
these was “no taxation without representation”.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap
from only a few years of my childhood.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly
labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">While very few working people would say they haven’t had
their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great
degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any
matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. <span style="">&nbsp;</span>Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or
anything I have to say.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit
unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of
years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of
their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal
government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours?<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Yet at the same time, the joke we call the
American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are
murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and
victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as
bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving
scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after
year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the
dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">And justice? You’ve got to be kidding!</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">How can any rational individual explain that white elephant
conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system?<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Here we have a system that is, by far, too
complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its
victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not
even the experts understand.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The law
“requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say
truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress”
than what is.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>If this is not the
measure of a <span class="owner">totalitarian regime, nothing is.</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">How did I get here?<span style="">&nbsp; </span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in
the early ‘80s.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Unfortunately after
more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd,
pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Some friends introduced me to a group of
people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>In particular, zeroed in on a section
relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar,
corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”,
high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do
exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from
our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the
name of God).<span style="">&nbsp; </span>We took a great deal of
care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the
law said it was to be done.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">The intent of this
exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the
laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of
people who earn an honest living.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations”
for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the
monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is
still alive and well today in this country.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years
of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country
with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>It also made me realize, not only how naive
I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they
buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”… and that they
continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all
that keeps happening in front of them.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of
the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984
after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of
“paying my dues”), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream
of becoming an independent engineer.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I
should digress somewhat to say that I’m sure that I inherited the fascination
for creative problem solving from my father.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>I realized this at a very young age.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">The significance of independence, however, came much later
during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on
my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>My neighbor was an elderly retired woman
(80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired
steel worker.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Her husband had worked
all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big
business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a
pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Instead he was one of the thousands who got
nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to
mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their
retirement.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>All she had was social
security to live on.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was
living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to
splurge) for months at a time.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>When I
got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight
than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of
me).<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I was genuinely appalled at one
point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our
situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I
would be “healthier” eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all
my substance from peanut butter and bread.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>I couldn’t quite go there, but the impression was made.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I decided that I didn’t trust big business
to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and
myself.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">Return to the early ‘80s, and here I was off to a terrifying
start as a ‘wet-behind-the-ears’ contract software engineer... and two years
later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of
Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such
calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw
the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt; page-break-after: avoid;">For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section
1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax
purposes. Visit this link for a <a href="http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport">conference
committee report</a>
(http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport) regarding
the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section
530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services
workers and their clients, read our discussion <a href="http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml" title="Laws affecting Brokered Independent Contractors' tax status">here</a>
(http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml). </p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt; page-break-after: avoid;"><span style="color: red;">SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL
PERSONNEL.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in; page-break-after: avoid;"><span style="color: red;">(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of
the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following
new subsection:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class="MsoBodyTextIndent" style="margin-right: 0.4in;">(d) EXCEPTION. - This
section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an
arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such
other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems
analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt 0.75in; text-indent: -0.25in; page-break-after: avoid;"><span style="color: red;">(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The
amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services
rendered after December 31, 1986.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt 0.5in; page-break-after: avoid;">Note: </p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; page-break-after: avoid;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->"another person" is the client in the
traditional job-shop relationship.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt 1in; text-indent: -0.25in; page-break-after: avoid;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->"taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency,
or job shop.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt 1in; text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·<span style="font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><!--[endif]-->"individual", "employee", or
"worker" is you.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->&nbsp;<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what
it is saying but it’s not very complicated.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the
text of section (d).<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Moreover, they
could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly
declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>Twenty years later, I still can’t believe my eyes.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’,
and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any
senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they
universally treated me as if I was wasting their time.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways
driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who
were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>This, only to discover that our efforts were
being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning
to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I
was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldn’t bill clients.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a
futile exercise.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The best we could get
for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they
weren’t going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists).<span style="">&nbsp; </span>This immediately proved to be a lie, and the
mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line;
this, of course, was the intended effect.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them
into idle.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>If I had any sense, I
clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Then came the L.A. depression of the early
1990s.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Our leaders decided that they
didn’t need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern
California, so they were closed; just like that.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled
the widely publicized Texas S&amp;L fiasco.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>However, because the government caused it, no one gave a shit about all
of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up
houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to
“shore up” their windfall.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Again, I
lost my retirement.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">Years later, after
weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with
my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some
speed.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Then came the .COM bust and the
911 nightmare.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Our leaders decided that
all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after
that, ‘special’ facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for
months.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>This made access to my
customers prohibitively expensive.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of
the airlines with billions of our tax dollars … as usual they left me to rot
and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY
MONEY!<span style="">&nbsp; </span>After these events, there went
my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">By this time, I’m thinking that it might be good for a
change.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Bye to California, I’ll try
Austin for a while.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>So I moved, only to
find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance
and where damn little real engineering work is done.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I’ve never experienced such a hard time finding work.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning
before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large
companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages… and
this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesn’t give
a fuck about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and
retirement, the last of which was a small IRA.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of
income.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I filed no return that year
thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The sleazy government decided that they
disagreed.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>But they didn’t notify me in
time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest
filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because
the time to file ran out.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Bend over for
another $10,000 helping of justice.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">So now we come to the present.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>After my experience with the CPA world, following the business
crash I swore that I’d never enter another accountant’s office again.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>But here I am with a new marriage and a
boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business
asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>After considerable thought I decided that it would be
irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that
they were in order.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I had taken all of
the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar
to what I was expecting.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Except that he
had neglected to include the contents of Sheryl’s unreported income; $12,700
worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I
didn’t have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>By that time it had become brutally evident
that he was representing himself and not me.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to
defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least
the tax-related transactions were poorly documented).<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue
would ever matter to anyone.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The end result
is… well, just look around.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">I remember reading about the stock market crash before the
“great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping
out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60
years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic
problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it,
elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get
to die for the mistakes… isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably
referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and
his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this
criticism rings equally true for all of the government.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Nothing changes unless there is a body count
(unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough).<span style="">&nbsp; </span>In a government full of hypocrites from top
to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I
can stand.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>It has always been a myth
that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t
limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as
many after.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>But I also know that by not
adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I choose to not keep looking over my
shoulder at “big brother” while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore
what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual
won’t continue; I have just had enough. </p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be
white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will
take nothing less.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I would only hope
that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard,
knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian
restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and
their mindless minions for what they are.<span style="">&nbsp;
</span>Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but
violence not only is the answer, it is the <i>only</i> answer.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>The cruel joke is that the really big chunks
of shit at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and
using this awareness against, fools like me all along.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;">I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is
repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly
be different.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>I am finally ready to
stop this insanity.<span style="">&nbsp; </span>Well, Mr. Big
Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and
sleep well.</p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->&nbsp;<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><b>The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to
each according to his need.<o:p></o:p></b></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><b>The capitalist creed: From each according to his
gullibility, to each according to his greed.<o:p></o:p></b></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->&nbsp;<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="h1" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Joe Stack (1956-2010)<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class="h1" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">02/18/2010<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->&nbsp;<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0.4in 6pt;"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->&nbsp;<!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</body></html>

Malrubius
02-18-2010, 04:33 PM
http://www.icis.com/blogs/asian-chemical-connections/035ostrich_468x538.jpg

Heh, touche. But really - we should read stuff because somebody does stuff like this?

I read all the time, lots of opinions, lots of facts - but should we really place more importance (or even as much importance) on that which has been sensationalized?

Hasbinbad
02-18-2010, 04:48 PM
If someone is willing to die for a message, we as humans should at least examine that message, for it may portend great good or great evil.

I feel like we as humans have advanced to the point where the majority of people regardless of creed have examined the message of the Islamic martyrs, and outside of that circle have generally rejected the idea of dying for religion. However this situation is completely different, and martyrs or self-styled martyrs are still powerful beacons to the message they die for. Whether or not Joe Stack's message is valid, it's ridiculous to dismiss it out of hand because of how he decided to get his message out.

Anuril
02-18-2010, 04:53 PM
@Malrubius

What do you mean? Everyday in the USA the major networks sensationalize headlines and ignore to report true newsworthy events taking place around the world. I don't get the point you are trying to make.

I'm not going to tell you what to read and what not to read, but I will say that the letter is articulate and the dude's argument makes logical sense to me. Those two points alone make it at least worthy of a read. Whether you agree or not is besides the point.

kich1414
02-18-2010, 06:43 PM
Do you think his pet got 50% of the exp or nah?

Hasbinbad
02-18-2010, 06:50 PM
Do you think his pet got 50% of the exp or nah?
TOO SOON!!

:P

Zithax
02-18-2010, 09:28 PM
Amazingly well articulated and truthful. I have to say I support this guy. We are all wage slaves for corporations/gov't/wealthy until we wake up and revolt. It's shocking to hear that some may think, but really that is the only solution to the corruption rampant in not only the US gov't, but the entire world. I am not advocating communism, I am simply suggesting that the doctrine of capitalism we accord to is by no stretch what anyone in their right mind would call "fair" or "sane."

Now, I'm not a supporter of violence in any form but as Anuril said: it resonates through history, that since the dawn of man for great change to occur, so must blood be shed. This man had to do something to get the truth out, and flying a plane into a building (an IRS building even, fool be tryin' to convey points and shit) was the only thing he thought he could do to turn attention to a matter of grave importance.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. To stride for anything less is tyranny.

Jeebus
02-18-2010, 10:49 PM
I read the whole thing. word for word. He has really good points and he's correct for most of it. The sad thing about the whole letter is he's correct in saying that no one would have read his message had he not ran a plane into a building or some other fanatical act.

He sounds like he got *assraped* one too many times.

Zithax
02-18-2010, 10:51 PM
I read the whole thing. word for word. He has really good points and he's correct for most of it. The sad thing about the whole letter is he's correct in saying that no one would have read his message had he not ran a plane into a building or some other fanatical act.

nev0rmind

Jeebus
02-18-2010, 11:00 PM
Well while those maybe fanatical, I was thinking more like some sort of bomb etc

Zithax
02-18-2010, 11:17 PM
Well while those maybe fanatical, I was thinking more like some sort of bomb etc

Sorry I reread your post; I completely misread it the first time. I was agreeing with you.

Packet
02-19-2010, 01:19 AM
I completely agree with nearly everything he said in his letter. One of my favorite quotes is, "He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it". Now I may be misquoting the exact phrase but the application is still the same.

I am also very pessimistic sometimes toward the US government and the
American people for the same reasons. Although I prefer to live in a corrupt system rather than die trying to change it, I can understand his perspective for sure.

Obama
02-19-2010, 03:40 AM
Wow that is amazing, It is unbelievable how corrupt the powerful are, and how utterly stupid and docile the public is. It's hard to deny that the author is right about justice in this country. There is no justice when the law is INCOMPREHENSIBLE, that in itself contradicts the very definition of justice. I guess all other avenues were exhausted, and the only way to make his mark was through terrorism. Maybe now the government will clamp down even harder on basic freedoms in this country, and maybe then people will get pissed off and revolt. But they almost certainly will not.

Moral of this story: take all that you can, be as corrupt as you can, because in the end, the little guy who tries to make an honest living gets fuuuucked.

Bannedfornoreason
02-19-2010, 03:47 AM
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

America needs fewer laws, not more prisons. – James Bovard

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. – Robert Heinlein

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. – Goethe

Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. – H.L. Mencken

The power to tax is the power to destroy. – John Marshall

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. – Edward R. Murrow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJQ_lE6UL1o

Packet
02-19-2010, 10:36 AM
Wow that is amazing, It is unbelievable how corrupt the powerful are, and how utterly stupid and docile the public is. It's hard to deny that the author is right about justice in this country. There is no justice when the law is INCOMPREHENSIBLE, that in itself contradicts the very definition of justice. I guess all other avenues were exhausted, and the only way to make his mark was through terrorism. Maybe now the government will clamp down even harder on basic freedoms in this country, and maybe then people will get pissed off and revolt. But they almost certainly will not.

Moral of this story: take all that you can, be as corrupt as you can, because in the end, the little guy who tries to make an honest living gets fuuuucked.

The truth is, the government is organized and the public is separate. As long as it's kept that way, change will never come. We can illustrate critical thinking and come to agreement that our government is more or less a criminal organization but as long as we are separate, we have no power. And let's face it, who wants to risk losing everything for what is likely a lost cause? The US has hundreds of thousands of deploy-able drones that can do their dirty work for them in the event of a 'social uprising'. Even though it is our right and duty to overthrow a corrupt government, the unfortunate truth is that replacing a corrupt government wouldn't fix our issues. A good example is when the Tzar was overthrown in Russia by common folk like you an I. Farmers attempting to run a country is a bad thing. (Not saying we're farmers or anything.) I'm not saying that was your point, just bringing this idea into the conversation. We just need to get those old crones out of congress and get some younger open-minded people in there with a short term.

Erasong
02-19-2010, 11:25 AM
This man has a message that needed to be heard in my honest opinion, but a true martyr would have just killed himself to get it out, not tried to end the lives of other drones working a 9 to 5 going thru the same struggles as he. Becuase you work for the government, doesnt mean you are a criminal or reap the rewards of the upper echelons misdeeds. The only people he would have killed, even crashing into an IRS building, is other victims. Well, mostly. He MAY have gotten to 1 or 2 douches.
I read what was said about blood needing to be shed for change to occur historically speaking, but does it really have to be blood of innocent people? I dont think that has always been the case.
Also, Martin Luther King Jr, and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi wouldnt be half as great men as they are if blood were truely a pre requisite of change.

Otto
02-19-2010, 11:55 AM
Also, Martin Luther King Jr, and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi wouldnt be half as great men are they are if blood were truely a pre requisite of change.

Truth.

Problem is, spilling blood will make those changes come more rapidly if history shows us anything.

Hoggen
02-19-2010, 12:05 PM
Some of what happened to this guy was bad luck; some was the work of criminals; most of it was just his incapacity to think things through before he did something stupid, such as flying a plane into a building filled with low level functunaries of an enforcement branch of government that has little or no legislative authority.

He didn't consult with reputable professionals on how to start/run a business and failed to file the proper paperwork to prevent having unnecessary problems with tax enforcement agencies. He didn't give his CPA all the income receipts necessary for him to properly figure his taxes. He hung out with tax revolutionaries who didn't know their asses from a hole in the ground, and were likely trying to rip him off as well.

I've made alot of mistakes in my life. I don't blame the government, or my exes, or my CPA, or the boogeyman. This guy was a loser, and deserving of sympathy for how absolutely idiotic he was; but to say his murder-suicide was anything other than an act of derangement is denying the facts he presents in his letter. If you want to change the world, you don't do it by killing yourself and one other nameless IRS employee, and burning down the house your wife and kids live in: you fight till your last breath against those forces you feel oppress you and you use the most effective tools available, and you constantly search for more. This guy was just whacked.

Yoite
02-19-2010, 12:06 PM
FYI if you want a copy of this you should save it to your hard-drive. word on the street is the FBI are trying to get rid of copies of this letter on blogs and shit.

guineapig
02-19-2010, 12:11 PM
FYI if you want a copy of this you should save it to your hard-drive. word on the street is the FBI are trying to get rid of copies of this letter on blogs and shit.

That's a load of crap, completely illegal and practically impossible for them to do. Not saying they wouldn't love to be able to do it, but it's not gonna happen.

Yoite
02-19-2010, 12:17 PM
well the govnt doesn't obey their own laws so i wouldn't put it past them. but ya, it would be pretty much impossible as someone can just re-post it. but apparently they aren't happy about it being distributed.

Dac321
02-19-2010, 12:29 PM
[QUOTE=Anuril;21754]Unfortunately revolutionary acts often involve violence. I disagree with Stack's violent act, but history tells me that it is one of the best ways to forward a valid point in the face of overwhelming opposition.[/QUOTE

You are absolutely right... It was absolutely horrible the entire event. And I, aswell disagree with Stack's violence. But sadly, that is the only way people listen.

Grumpo
02-19-2010, 02:28 PM
Legal and moral philosophy aside, I've got this to say: Just finished a two week nightmare of trying to do my wife's taxes. Mine were no problem, I worked at a community college and the government takes care of its own. She had an internship and was billed as an independent contractor (what Stack talked about in the tax code). She made less than a quarter of poverty-level income. Her effective tax was negative 800 dollars, but because she was an independent contractor, she owes the government $250.

I'll repeat this. She made less than one quarter of poverty level income (she was single at the time). She owes the government 10% of her BELOW POVERTY LEVEL income, because she had the audacity to work under the IRS's "self-employed" label.

Stack's not crazy. He just has better access to machinery than most people.

Also, start grouping with bards. These pre-10 levels are terrible.

Zithax
02-19-2010, 02:52 PM
Also, Martin Luther King Jr, and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi wouldnt be half as great men are they are if blood were truely a pre requisite of change.

This does not change the fact that their oppressors used violence trying to suppress them though. Blood WAS shed, although it may not have been by the hand of the ones wanting change.

Hasbinbad
02-19-2010, 06:17 PM
Oops.
(http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/3961.Alan_Moore)

Hasbinbad
02-19-2010, 06:19 PM
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

America needs fewer laws, not more prisons. – James Bovard

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. – Robert Heinlein

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. – Goethe

Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. – H.L. Mencken

The power to tax is the power to destroy. – John Marshall

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. – Edward R. Murrow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJQ_lE6UL1o

You forgot:
People shouldn't be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people. - Alan Moore

..but honestly, Ron Paul's hype is WAY better than his platforms.

faenyar
02-19-2010, 06:49 PM
Let's keep this in perspective. The man owned his own business. He "neglected" to file a tax return. When he finally did file a tax return, he "neglected" to report his wife's income (in other words, he cheated on his taxes and got caught). He also complains that the federal government doesn't take care of the people that need it, yet he cheats on paying the very taxes that go to help those people that need it.

He then proceeds to set his own home that he owned on fire, and then crashed his own private plane into a building and kills himself as a "protest" statement. And he's complaining about how unfair the system is.

The man is a psychopathic lunatic and an idiot.

gloam
02-19-2010, 07:39 PM
I wonder, if this guy would have tried to fly his plane into a session of congress, would the media try to portray the guy as some right wing fanatic? Or are they already.

Ever notice as well, you dont hear about any more war protests on the mainstream media outlets? Funny how when Georgie Bush was president, they were front and center, but now? Dont hear much from Cindy Sheehan either. Guess the war is all the sudden more acceptable now that more people have died, billions more spent, and still no clear end in sight.

Had to edit to point out, im not a Bush supporter, just found that interesting that Ive not heard of any noise regarding war protests, while still spending the same amount of time browsing news sites.

Zithax
02-19-2010, 07:41 PM
He also complains that the federal government doesn't take care of the people that need it, yet he cheats on paying the very taxes that go to help those people that need it.

That's his point. That it -wasn't- going to the people that need it, it was going to the people that DIDN'T need it, who also kept purposely draining him for being able to circumvent their system.

Ikeren
02-19-2010, 08:42 PM
Amazingly well articulated and truthful. I have to say I support this guy. We are all wage slaves for corporations/gov't/wealthy until we wake up and revolt. It's shocking to hear that some may think, but really that is the only solution to the corruption rampant in not only the US gov't, but the entire world. I am not advocating communism, I am simply suggesting that the doctrine of capitalism we accord to is by no stretch what anyone in their right mind would call "fair" or "sane."

I found it incredibly poorly articulated. I'm far of left and have read a lot of the leftist thinkers (including the quoted communist manifesto); and generally, inane ramblings and vauge generalizations like the letter contained do more damage to your side.

Arguments with specific examples and proof would have been far more constructive. Just saying; there are lots of good reasons to hate the government.

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours?

Is not one of them.

IRS
02-26-2010, 03:28 AM
The Accidental View of History: historical events occur by accident, for no apparent reason. Rulers are powerless to intervene.

The Conspiratorial View of History: historical events occur by design for reasons that are not generally made known to the people.

Two thumbs up for starting this thread.

I am an un-educated stoner who thrives on video games, every sperm is special.

I encourage you to read that letter and of course come to your own conclusion taking in anything you can use and leaving the rest. Growing up with a father probably alot like Joeseph Stack I have learned very quickly at a young age about the corruption of our government, and the rest of the worlds for that matter. Now my father wouldn't have killed himself over the matter he would have went out and picked up a sack, rolled a fat one, and payed the whole world back.

Being overwhelmed with the information no 10 year old could understand I did pick up a few good lessons from people like Stack and my father...

"Fight the ocean and you will drown." <-- Seriously, you will drown.

IF any of you want to make a difference all you have to do is educate yourself and then think of clever ways of educating others about the matter that don't involve you killing yourself. Killing off those who understand the rotting pig stew we're in won't help the fight. Imagine that, everyone who truely understands the corruption and can educate others all fly planes into buildings then guess what, government wins, hello communism. Remember people like Joeseph Stack are convinced your very own government let those planes fly into the towers.

THE UNSEEN HAND
By A. Ralph Epperson
An Introduction to the Conspiratorial View of History

Read that book. It's like one of those translated bibles written in plain english even uneducated stoners who thrive on video games can understand. You will get both sides of the story, not just your governments view. This author is not shoving HIS view down your throat. He is giving you BOTH sides of the story.

FROM ABRAHAM LINCOLN

"When we see a lot of framed timbers, different portions of which we know have been gotten out at different times and places and by different workmen, and when we see these timbers joined together and see that they exactly make the frame of a house or a mill, all the lengths and proportions of the different pieces exactly adapted to their respective pieces, and not a piece too many or too few, not omitting even scaffolding, or if a single piece be lacking, we can see the place in the frame exactly fitted and prepared to yet bring such piece in; in such case, we find it impossible to not believe that they all understood one another from the beginning, and all worked upon a common plan or draft drawn up before the first lick was struck."

About the Author
The most difficult thing I know to do is to write about myself, but I think that the reader of this book has the right to know something about me, the author, and what motivated me to write it.
I am a graduate of the University of Arizona, and like the typical graduate of an institution of higher education, I felt that what I had been taught was the truth. I thought that the only thing I needed to complete my education in the future was additional information to confirm the knowledge to which I had already been exposed.
So I faced the future with great anticipation.
But a close friend of mine, sensing that my knowledge was both incomplete and one-sided, suggested that I start reading material dealing with what was called "Revisionist History." This was the alternative explanation of history to what I had been taught was the truth.
There are over 300 books on both sides of this issue that I've read that are part of the research for this book. That figure, I am certain, is not an impressive number to those who are true "book addicts," but I mention it only to illustrate that the ideas in this book are not mine, but those of the individuals who have taken the time to record their perspective on the events in which they were personally involved or which they researched in depth.
But as I read, I noticed that there was no one volume that covered a complete history of the Conspiracy, and it is this void that I hope to fill. It is my intent to catalog as much of the history of this Conspiracy as is possible in a single volume.
I have made extensive use of quotations from the works of others as a means of convincing the skeptic that the evidence of the Conspiracy's existence comes from others than this author.
What the reader will see as he progresses through this book, I am convinced, is a picture of a giant conspiracy so immense that it poses the greatest threat to the freedoms and rights of all human beings, not only in the United States, but all over the world.
It is likely that, as the reader completes this book, despair will replace curiosity, especially if this explanation of the events being reviewed has never been explored before. That is an unfortunate consequence of my research, and the author is sorry that he must be the bearer of such bad tidings.
Despair, however, can reasonably be replaced with cautious optimism. The battle is not yet over, and there is reason to be encouraged.
But you are the final participant.
What happens will largely be dependent on your action once you've read this book.


If anyone is seriously intrested in the book i'll post the introduction for further examination of what this book gets into. It really does hold your hand and spell everything out for you.

After one reads this book you'll look through this very thread and take note on how ignorant everyone really is that thinks they know anything about todays politics.

Ikeren
02-26-2010, 01:43 PM
Title: The Unseen Hand: An Introduction Into the Conspiratorial View of History, 1982

Yeah, I don't see a bias towards one side or the other in that title at all.

government wins, hello communism.

Uh, you think the logical extension of current practices in US and non-US political spheres is communism? I'm curious about your explanation for that.


I love how conspiracy theorists say things like "You can't believe everything you read" and "don't trust the government/media/instutition" but then proceed to simply buy into a different theory. Then they say "I know the truth, all you sheep, everyone else is ignorant, I'm so brilliant, check out this you-tube video."

Hasbinbad
02-26-2010, 02:05 PM
I love how conspiracy theorists say things like "You can't believe everything you read" and "don't trust the government/media/instutition" but then proceed to simply buy into a different theory. Then they say "I know the truth, all you sheep, everyone else is ignorant, I'm so brilliant, check out this you-tube video."
I love how conspiracy theorist deniers say things like "you can't believe every conspiracy theory you read," and "don't trust the conspiracy theorists/youtube videos/people trying to reveal truth," but then proceed to simply buy into a different theory. Then they say: "I know the truth, all you sheep, all conspiracy theories are the same and everyone else is ignorant, I'm so brilliant, check out this you-tube video about why conspiracy theories are dumb."

Seriously man.. I know that people out there are whack-jobs, but all of these "theories" are not created equal. Some have merit, some do not. To wantonly lump them together as material to be dismissed without examination verges on the fanatical.

IRS
02-26-2010, 02:28 PM
Title: The Unseen Hand: An Introduction Into the Conspiratorial View of History, 1982

Yeah, I don't see a bias towards one side or the other in that title at all.



Uh, you think the logical extension of current practices in US and non-US political spheres is communism? I'm curious about your explanation for that.


I love how conspiracy theorists say things like "You can't believe everything you read" and "don't trust the government/media/instutition" but then proceed to simply buy into a different theory. Then they say "I know the truth, all you sheep, everyone else is ignorant, I'm so brilliant, check out this you-tube video."

You'll find out when you grow up. Meanwhile, we have a good view of what you look like...

http://www.icis.com/blogs/asian-chemical-connections/035ostrich_468x538.jpg

Atern
02-26-2010, 02:41 PM
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul. – George Bernard Shaw

America needs fewer laws, not more prisons. – James Bovard

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. – Robert Heinlein

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. – Goethe

Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. – H.L. Mencken

The power to tax is the power to destroy. – John Marshall

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. – Edward R. Murrow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJQ_lE6UL1o

You forgot:

"The cake is a lie."

Ikeren
02-27-2010, 03:41 AM
@Hasbinbad: Consistent lack of credible evidence with conspiracy theories I've been presented with thus far is good reason to be moderately sceptical of new ones; especially new ones which are presented with not much evidence and lots of language like; "government wins, hello communism," and, "Fight the ocean, you will drown," oh, and here's a real gem; "...the rotting pig stew we're in..." Ockham's Razor is also a decent starting point. I think examining conspiracy theories makes sense, but many theories and proponents of theories do an exceptionally poor job of providing engaging arguments or evidence to people prior to the "buying the book" stage (which, because of the failure to provide engaging arguments or evidence, fewer people get to). Instead, vague generalizations and mockery of anyone who doesn't immediately say "Oh, look at your vague generalizations, this book seems great, I should go buy it" is generally met with mockery; which again, isn't conducive to getting people to engage with the theory.

@IRS: Post some of the arguments contained in the book, a real summary or explanation of the arguments/examples? Thus far, we have nothing more than "there is such thing as a conspiracy theory of history, and this such book exists." I have a torrent of The Unseen Hand running, but it has basically no seeders, so it's going to take a while. Then reading it, and looking up the evidence it presents. If we're going to have a discussion, you are probably much better off posting a little more of the books content.

I have made extensive use of quotations from the works of others as a means of convincing the skeptic that the evidence of the Conspiracy's existence comes from others than this author.

With that line, I look forward to reading the book; but you can't expect me to be anything but a sceptic until A) I've read the book, or B) Someone has presented me with some of the arguments/evidence contained in the book.

Furthermore, since your interest is to get the most people to read this book and recognize the examples and arguments contained therein as true, you are better off providing some of those arguments, because a person is more likely to go to the effort to buy and read a book if they have initial reason to believe the book is going to be interesting and provide new evidence and arguments. At the moment, I am moderately sceptical that the book won't be something I haven't read a dozen times before. David Icke was crazy, but at least his material represented a new progression of old ideas.

So yeah; I am interested, but give me some material to go on.

Goobles
02-27-2010, 03:49 AM
Right. I'm not going to read his note just because he flew a plane into a building.

In fact, I am going to specifically NOT read his note since he flew a plane into a building.

I sure hope you haven't discovered the Bible.

A person who dies for a cause is absolutely ridiculous. To hell with martyrs!

IRS
02-28-2010, 11:00 AM
@Hasbinbad: Consistent lack of credible evidence with conspiracy theories I've been presented with thus far is good reason to be moderately sceptical of new ones; especially new ones which are presented with not much evidence and lots of language like; "government wins, hello communism," and, "Fight the ocean, you will drown," oh, and here's a real gem; "...the rotting pig stew we're in..." Ockham's Razor is also a decent starting point. I think examining conspiracy theories makes sense, but many theories and proponents of theories do an exceptionally poor job of providing engaging arguments or evidence to people prior to the "buying the book" stage (which, because of the failure to provide engaging arguments or evidence, fewer people get to). Instead, vague generalizations and mockery of anyone who doesn't immediately say "Oh, look at your vague generalizations, this book seems great, I should go buy it" is generally met with mockery; which again, isn't conducive to getting people to engage with the theory.

@IRS: Post some of the arguments contained in the book, a real summary or explanation of the arguments/examples? Thus far, we have nothing more than "there is such thing as a conspiracy theory of history, and this such book exists." I have a torrent of The Unseen Hand running, but it has basically no seeders, so it's going to take a while. Then reading it, and looking up the evidence it presents. If we're going to have a discussion, you are probably much better off posting a little more of the books content.



With that line, I look forward to reading the book; but you can't expect me to be anything but a sceptic until A) I've read the book, or B) Someone has presented me with some of the arguments/evidence contained in the book.

Furthermore, since your interest is to get the most people to read this book and recognize the examples and arguments contained therein as true, you are better off providing some of those arguments, because a person is more likely to go to the effort to buy and read a book if they have initial reason to believe the book is going to be interesting and provide new evidence and arguments. At the moment, I am moderately sceptical that the book won't be something I haven't read a dozen times before. David Icke was crazy, but at least his material represented a new progression of old ideas.

So yeah; I am interested, but give me some material to go on.

It's not my job to educate you kid. Remain ignorantly bliss for the rest of your life for all I care and read nothing but your one-sided history books that have been proven wrong time after time again in your pathetic schools.

Ikeren
02-28-2010, 04:03 PM
How do you expect to inform people if you do not try?

And if you have no interest in inform people, why did you come here and post the vague description of appropriate book?

I have to say, I find your behaviour a little contradictory.

Edit: Hmm. Is the hypothesis that if you remain mysterious and refuse to give me material to go on, that I will become sufficiently intrigued to buy the book instead of waiting for this torrent to finish, and thus, fulfil the objective of informing people? An interesting tactic, but I think it would be more effective if you attempted to remain neutral in tone.

IRS
02-28-2010, 05:23 PM
I'm right. You are wrong. I win.

Ikeren
02-28-2010, 06:07 PM
I guess I deserved that for trying to make sense of someones behaviour on the internet. My apologies.

IRS
02-28-2010, 06:17 PM
dat's right esse vato cum trippin' my h00d u getz the gAK!

Humerox
03-01-2010, 12:07 AM
Good read. I'd suggest Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance too.

President
03-01-2010, 12:38 AM
Yea thanks for posting that Hasbinbad I'm surprised I haven't seen it anywhere else (definitely expected it on reddit.) Good read, very true, not sure what I would do taking it that many times from the man. Unfortunately he killed someone innocent.

Hasbinbad
03-01-2010, 01:13 AM
I don't really want to start defending this conspiracy theory or that, that was never my cause and I will not champion it. However:
Consistent lack of credible evidence with conspiracy theories I've been presented with thus far is good reason to be moderately sceptical of new ones
Moderately skeptical =/= throwing out all such theories out of hand without examining them.
especially new ones which are presented with not much evidence and lots of language like; "government wins, hello communism," and, "Fight the ocean, you will drown," oh, and here's a real gem; "...the rotting pig stew we're in..."
I have nfi what those are, and none of them are what I was referring to, and I am not going to bring any to your attention. They are out there, they are widely available, put your skeptic cap on and do some research with an open yet cautious mind.
Ockham's Razor is also a decent starting point.
The exact same principle is used as a major defense of many conspiracy theories. In neither case is it valid to use as evidence of anything.
I think examining conspiracy theories makes sense
You start out O.K., let's see where you go with it:
but many theories and proponents of theories do an exceptionally poor job of providing engaging arguments or evidence to people prior to the "buying the book" stage (which, because of the failure to provide engaging arguments or evidence, fewer people get to). Instead, vague generalizations and mockery of anyone who doesn't immediately say "Oh, look at your vague generalizations, this book seems great, I should go buy it" is generally met with mockery; which again, isn't conducive to getting people to engage with the theory.
For someone speaking out negatively about "vague generalizations," "lack of evidence," "lack of an engaging argument," and "meeting with mockery those who don't agree with you," you sure do have a knack for disengaging generilzed arguments that show an abundant lack of evidence to back up the vaguely mocking things you're saying about people who don't agree with you.

Honestly..
Some of the people you're talking about have very engaging arguments that engage people like me in very specific ways because they take into consideration the opposing views without mockery and summarily defeat them with facts and logic as evidence.

That YOU can't see it shows a lack of trying, because as I mentioned before, this information is superfluously available on the internet.

Bannedfornoreason
03-01-2010, 08:29 AM
I wonder, if this guy would have tried to fly his plane into a session of congress, would the media try to portray the guy as some right wing fanatic? Or are they already.


No patriot would fly his plane into congress...too much risk in killing Ron Paul.

Bannedfornoreason
03-01-2010, 08:51 AM
About taxes... Yeah, if you want to learn a thing or two you should watch this http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173# Freedom to Fascism. It's a great movie that explains a lot of good stuff for people who don't know anything.

I'd also strongly suggest that you watch

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4330031689287456187&ei=IbaLS-uHLqj-lQeQ26zqBA&q=JFK&view=3#docid=7457650579849429062

and

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4330031689287456187&ei=IbaLS-uHLqj-lQeQ26zqBA&q=JFK&view=3#

Lastly I would suggest that you watch http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8182697765360042032&ei=q7aLS7TRAsiUlAfhi_3HBw&q=AE+9%2F11&view=3#

All of these documentaries are created by VERY intelligent and respectable people. None of them are created by some random nobody fool. Once you watch all of these, not only will you learn a little bit about the history of the USA, but you will also learn a bit about how screwed up and corrupt the government is. The vast majority of this is either scientifically or historically backed by some of the most intelligent people in each field. There's really nothing to debate about it once you see what you have not seen. They don't teach you this stuff in school growing up...

Ikeren
03-01-2010, 04:35 PM
@Hasbin; I'm a little confused.
1) I state that I have noticed a trend in conspiracy theories to have a superiority complex.
2) You point out that that is no reason to dismiss all conspiracy theories. I agree with you on this point. I just think the superior attitude is not beneficial to spreading the theory.
3) I state that I am moderately sceptical of IRS theory based on the 1 page spread he presented.
4) I state that I am attempting to torrent it, but would like more information because the torrent is moving very slowly (3.2% at this moment).
5) IRS refuses to provide more information, showing precisely the superior attitude that I have found in previous research on conspiracy theories.
6) I say that more information would be helpful for understanding the theory.

You jump in at this point, seeming to confuse the fact that I am not necessarily referring to all conspiracy theories, but just a trend I have seen when investigating them thus far. I have done a fair bit of reading (not only youtube videos and online, but also in psychological and historical journals and physical books from both sides of the pro and anti conspiracy theory sides), but have not encountered the author IRS specifically mentioned. The conspiracy theories that have seen most reasonable are the ones that avoid the superior attitude. I am not trying to dismiss all conspiracy theories; I think several (but not all) have valid and interesting things to say. But even as I find facts and ideas very interesting (and true, some of the time), I often find the method and tone poor for explaining the ideas contained in even the most-likely true of conspiracy theories.

Now I'm confused as to what part of this you disagree with.

@Banned: Good videos (though some of the content isn't true, most noticably and obviously with the first video) I had seen the first 3, but the last one I only had found clips of. I'll watch the rest this afternoon probably.

Bannedfornoreason
03-01-2010, 07:53 PM
what about the first video isn't true? It might be hard to accept the truth... it is hard to believe that they put fluoride into the water supply too though isn't it? http://www.fluoridealert.org/absurdity.htm

Ikeren
03-02-2010, 12:36 AM
Lets assume for a second I wasn't doing real research and checking scholarly sources (which I am), and wasn't also reading contradictory sources (some of which I also don't believe, but we don't live in a dichotomous world these days); say I was so lazy that all I did was check wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_fascism#Inaccuracies


Also, the very premise itself is somewhat, maybe not fallacious in itself, but moderately unsound. The argument is 1) There is no law that says we must pay taxes (a fact, that may or may not be true), therefore, we should not pay our taxes. Even if the former is true (that there is no law saying we must pay taxes), and sufficient sound journalism reveals it, then the government just makes this law. And there is no major outcry, because there already is a convention of taxation.

I do, however, agree that some of his examples provide interesting information about peoples general lack of knowledge on the subject of taxation and the lack of clarity in tax statutes, but as a whole, does the argument make sense? No; because the real question is not "Are we legally obligated to pay taxes" but instead is "Are we morally obligated to pay taxes, and how much?"; a different, and much more relevant question. Russo assumes we already all know the answer (no; we are not morally obligated), but the actual debate is still up in the air; especially in other countries (I'm Canadian, and while I recognize much of this material is designed for the US, questions of moral obligation to taxation matter for all democratic nations) where the tangible benefits of taxation is whatever the US has + healthcare (in Canada), to even whatever the US has + healthcare + Post Secondary Education (in the European Union). It's not a question of "are we legally bound to pay taxes" but instead "Are the taxes we pay being spent well?" If the answer is no, there, then it calls for a change in government.

I could, and have, written essays on the subject, but I'll be shorter here for everyone's benefit (including my own).

Humerox
03-02-2010, 02:31 AM
Redundant material. Drive through.

IRS
03-02-2010, 09:04 AM
I do, however, agree that some of his examples provide interesting information about peoples general lack of knowledge on the subject of taxation and the lack of clarity in tax statutes, but as a whole, does the argument make sense? No; because the real question is not "Are we legally obligated to pay taxes" but instead is "Are we morally obligated to pay taxes, and how much?"; a different, and much more relevant question. Russo assumes we already all know the answer (no; we are not morally obligated), but the actual debate is still up in the air; especially in other countries (I'm Canadian, and while I recognize much of this material is designed for the US, questions of moral obligation to taxation matter for all democratic nations) where the tangible benefits of taxation is whatever the US has + healthcare (in Canada), to even whatever the US has + healthcare + Post Secondary Education (in the European Union). It's not a question of "are we legally bound to pay taxes" but instead "Are the taxes we pay being spent well?" If the answer is no, there, then it calls for a change in government.

I could, and have, written essays on the subject, but I'll be shorter here for everyone's benefit (including my own).

This is why your corrupt government taxes you. Because your fucking head is in the sand debating on if it's your "moral" obligation. Stupid canadians.

"Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much of the stories in the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positive fanatic orgy of free thinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the State through lies. It was a crushing impression. Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude towards the convictions which were alive in any specific social environment - an attitude which never left me, even though later on, because of a better insight into causal connections, it lost some of its orginal poignancy."
-Albert Einstein

Villide
03-02-2010, 09:35 AM
I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out.

This guy is an embarrassment. And my guess is his letter is probably full of distortions and outright lies - and some of you just absorb it as absolute truth, since it gives you a chance to lash out at the government.

Joseph Stack is no better and no more righteous than the dumbass dad who kills himself and takes his family with him. What a joke.

Villide
03-02-2010, 09:52 AM
This guy is an embarrassment. And my guess is his letter is probably full of distortions and outright lies - and some of you just absorb it as absolute truth, since it gives you a chance to lash out at the government.

Joseph Stack is no better and no more righteous than the dumbass dad who kills himself and takes his family with him. What a joke.
And just to balance out some of the nonsense:

http://www.salon.com/news/joe_stack/index.html?story=/opinion/walsh/politics/2010/02/22/vernon_hunter

His son, Ken Hunter, told local reporters he was tired of the media paying too much attention to the fractured and incoherent political beliefs espoused by the demented Stack, and not enough attention to his father's life:

"There was just too much going on about what the guy did and what he believed in, and enough's enough. They don't need to talk about him. Talk about my dad. You know, some people are trying to make this guy out to be a hero, a patriot. My dad served two terms in Vietnam. This guy never served at all. My dad wasn't responsible for his tax problems."

Hunter said his father was the kind of guy who'd have tried to help Stack with the tax troubles that supposedly drove Stack to the violence that took Hunter's life.

Hasbinbad
03-02-2010, 12:55 PM
Ikeren, you seem like a decently educated fellow, I'm sure if you review your writings, you can find - all on your own - the wantonly generalized negative statements which I take issue with. In fact, I think I even quoted 1 or 2. Also, while you might want to nitpick and say that this statement or that statement was specific, the overriding tone of your post was that all conspiracy theories are bad because the one's you have examined were bad. If you don't agree with the previous sentence, you may want to work on your communication skills.

That being said, I don't really give a shit.

That being said, with a little work, these sentences could end up as a really great quote.

It's not a question of "are we legally bound to pay taxes" but instead "Are the taxes we pay being spent well?" If the answer is no, there, then it calls for a change in government.

Ikeren
03-02-2010, 03:46 PM
@Hasbin: You're right, I admit that my distaste for the method in which theories get expressed and espoused led to poor articulation of my actual stance. That was definitely not what I was attempting to convey. I do think all theories are worth at the very least, reading about and investigating.


@IRS: I know exactly what I get for my taxes; I've looked at the government budget and how the money I pay breaks down into benefits for me. A short list includes Healthcare, Post-Secondary Education funding, Public Transit Subsidization, massive amounts of urban development work, funding for artists, public schools. And while I don't use the last two, that doesn't prevent them from being projects I support.

For what I pay, I am reasonably certain that I'm getting a pretty good deal.

Bannedfornoreason
03-03-2010, 05:41 AM
Perhaps you don't know... banks basically own the US. This should sum things up for you. Theres no funny business going on here. This is just how it is. Its a shame that only 20% of the US population know this. and only 35% of those people care and only 10% of those actually do anything about it. When you fluoridate water people become dumb...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3six2_zeitgeist-federal-reserve-part-1-of_politics

IBrulez
03-04-2010, 11:59 AM
ikeren is another idiot kid looking up taxes with google.

taxes that come out of your wallet go directy into the pockets of your elected officials and then to their mansions and sports cars.

money your schools, roads, and homeless get come from the taxes of tobacoo products, electronics, alcohol (also known as beer since you idiots seem to be that dumb), candy etc..

so unless you're a fat drunk smoker addicted to sugar you don't contribute to society!

you are all morons by the way!

Ikeren
03-04-2010, 02:52 PM
taxes that come out of your wallet go directy into the pockets of your elected officials and then to their mansions and sports cars.

money your schools, roads, and homeless get come from the taxes of tobacoo products, electronics, alcohol (also known as beer since you idiots seem to be that dumb), candy etc..


So, you're under the impression that product taxes are what pays for all the "useful" stuff, and income tax just goes to politicians? Just so I'm clear. And is this US, Canada, some other country?

Bannedfornoreason
03-04-2010, 03:04 PM
"money your schools, roads, and homeless get come from the taxes of tobacoo products, electronics, alcohol (also known as beer since you idiots seem to be that dumb), candy etc.."

All are paid for by state tax and taxed based on what the state determines, unless there is a federal tax like on cigarettes (higher or lower depending on what state you life in)

the income tax goes primarily to pay off a debt to banks. (the federal reserve has complete control of our monetary system and it is all behind closed doors what they do with it.

As long as our country is enslaved by the banks, we will never be free. It is the single most powerful force opposing this country and our government has welcomed them.

Humerox
03-05-2010, 02:47 AM
I was once an income tax protester until I figured some things out.

1) No one really gives a shit.
2) Income tax protesters go to jail. (see 1)
3) Most people in the US can't locate Idaho on a map, much less understand the intricacies of constitutional law, AND (see 1).

Ikeren
03-05-2010, 02:41 PM
I recently was at a very interesting presentation about how and why Banking institutions tend to be outside the democratic sphere in otherwise democratic nations. I agree that it is wrong that financial institutions with substantial influence over the economy are so unaccountable, but maybe it's a Canada/US difference, because while banks are powerful, to say that they're in control of the government, I think, doesn't give the government enough credit for its own flaws and successes.

Bannedfornoreason
03-06-2010, 12:48 AM
Government gleefully handed over all power to the banks in when was it 1913? Also, the USA is a Republic. Not a democracy

Finawin
03-06-2010, 01:31 AM
I giggle at the tinfoil hat crowd saying the world is run by banks.

Tsuken
03-06-2010, 01:57 AM
Flying a plane into a building filled with people who pay taxes (just like him) is ridiculous.

However I sympathize with him a great deal.

I was in the USA for a total of 1 hour. I was on a transit flight. I landed in LA, we all had to get off the plane while it got refueled and checked by security. Then we all had to have our picture taken and give our fingerprints. Was I a jew in Nazi germany? Then we all got to a big room without exists where we had to wait for an hour before we could board the same plane again and continue the flight. I didn't want to refuse the picture and the fingerprints, cause I didn't want to miss my flight out of there. I'm never going to the USA again, including on transit.

Finawin
03-06-2010, 02:25 AM
Eh, you really aren't missing much.

I live here and I don't really care for it half the time. While I am grateful I was lucky to be born here rather than most other places on this planet, eh...it varies.

Ikeren
03-06-2010, 04:42 PM
Government gleefully handed over all power to the banks in when was it 1913? Also, the USA is a Republic. Not a democracy

Kant would be proud. The differences between a constitutional republic and a representative democracy are subtle enough for the purpose of discussing relative powers of banks to government, the distinction is not massive.

Anyways; do you have any evidence aside from the videos you posted earlier, which have some noticable flaws? Like; I don't disagree that banks are powerful and that money is powerful (you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who didn't believe that). But you use the words "ALL power". And that is what I'm more curious about.

Tsuken, while regretable, the US is extra-concerned about its flights and that leads to minor restrictions in civil liberties when flying. I don't think it's a good thing, but I also don't think it's unexpected.

contactus
03-06-2010, 06:48 PM
ikieren you're seriously an idiot. stop asking for evidence. Give me "evidence" that you love your mother. Give me "evidence" of a superior being that 95% of the dumbass world believes in.

Finally, give me "evidence" that you don't have a giant pink dildo with purple dots shoved up your rectum right now.

Your country no matter where your dumbass is from is ran by whoever has the most money, period.

So give me EVIDENCE that i'm wrong. dumbass.

Ikeren
03-07-2010, 02:58 PM
Evidence that you're wrong?

Canada (+the EU)---public healthcare. It's resoundingly obvious that private healthcare is more profitable (see: US insurance companies fighting tooth and nail to prevent public healthcare). If those with money had complete power, healthcare would be privatized in every nation with public healthcare.

In the US, Obama's health care reform. Admittedly, it didn't go so far as he wanted. But it did go somewhere; subsidizing those making poverty wages, expand eligibility for those with higher income, tax rebates to small businesses with healthcare, tax costs to employers without it, etc.

If people with money (in this case) drug companies (some of the righest corporations world wide) had all the power, why did they let this direct cut in their profits happen? Because they are nice (and benevolent)?


Also, I think there is a little bit of a misconception here about the burden of proof for alternative theory. People arguing the status quo have a much lower burden of proof, and while unfortunate, it's true: there is not much onus for a proponent of the status quo to prove his theory; because most people already believe it. On the other hand, the burden of proof for people supporting alternative theory is substantially higher; because its new material to more people. I don't necessarily think this is a good thing, but I am pretty sure it is a fact of coherence theories of knowledge that most of us follow.

Also, disproving negatives is substantially more difficult than proving positives (to the point that some say it is impossible). I can give examples where those with money aren't in control endlessly; and someone can always posit an extra idea on the negative proof; for example:
"Maybe the drug companies thought it would be more beneficial to long term profits."
I provide evidence that drug companies don't care about public perception.
"Maybe they changed their minds."
At which point, it is basically impossible to prove that a company has not changed their mind about public perception. It is also, however, difficult to prove that a company has positively changed their mind about public perception; which is a reason to doubt the hypothesis. So while I won't say "You can't prove a negative"; proving a negative is often far more difficult than proving a positive.

Bannedfornoreason
03-07-2010, 03:27 PM
Corporations control our government.

Health insurance should not cover a skinned knee or a cavity in your tooth.

Health insurance should cover things that *are unexpected and a catastrophic* the type of thing that would be a total freak accident.

As it is now, the government controls the prices on everything by having this strong grip on every doctor in the country. Everyone pays way too much for something they don't need and often times people pay for tons of shit that they don't want.

If doctors had to compete with each other not only would you get better care, but it would be cheaper. The beauty of free market capitalism in the health field is that there's no such thing as a Walmart of healthcare. There is only one Dr. Richards or Dr. Brown.

Why do those who have power and money push for universal health care? Because your taxes will go to meaningless, crappy health care. None of your money will be tracked, and the bulk of it wont even be used on health care. They simply justify the taxes by saying "don't worry we got your back" Meanwhile they line their pockets and further invest in the destruction of your country.

When's the last time you died or had a catastrophic car accident? It's like buying life insurance at age 23.

contactus
03-08-2010, 11:49 AM
Evidence that you're wrong?

Canada (+the EU)---public healthcare. It's resoundingly obvious that private healthcare is more profitable (see: US insurance companies fighting tooth and nail to prevent public healthcare). If those with money had complete power, healthcare would be privatized in every nation with public healthcare.

In the US, Obama's health care reform. Admittedly, it didn't go so far as he wanted. But it did go somewhere; subsidizing those making poverty wages, expand eligibility for those with higher income, tax rebates to small businesses with healthcare, tax costs to employers without it, etc.

If people with money (in this case) drug companies (some of the righest corporations world wide) had all the power, why did they let this direct cut in their profits happen? Because they are nice (and benevolent)?


Also, I think there is a little bit of a misconception here about the burden of proof for alternative theory. People arguing the status quo have a much lower burden of proof, and while unfortunate, it's true: there is not much onus for a proponent of the status quo to prove his theory; because most people already believe it. On the other hand, the burden of proof for people supporting alternative theory is substantially higher; because its new material to more people. I don't necessarily think this is a good thing, but I am pretty sure it is a fact of coherence theories of knowledge that most of us follow.

Also, disproving negatives is substantially more difficult than proving positives (to the point that some say it is impossible). I can give examples where those with money aren't in control endlessly; and someone can always posit an extra idea on the negative proof; for example:
"Maybe the drug companies thought it would be more beneficial to long term profits."
I provide evidence that drug companies don't care about public perception.
"Maybe they changed their minds."
At which point, it is basically impossible to prove that a company has not changed their mind about public perception. It is also, however, difficult to prove that a company has positively changed their mind about public perception; which is a reason to doubt the hypothesis. So while I won't say "You can't prove a negative"; proving a negative is often far more difficult than proving a positive.

What the fuck makes you think the medical industry has the most money? Please use better keywords in your google searches.

Ikeren
03-08-2010, 02:11 PM
If the hypothesis is that money has power, then the drug companies should have sufficient power, unless someone else with more money was pushing this policy through. Since the point of your argument is that people are more or less powerless, it can't be them. It is unlikely some other major financial power (banks, oil companies, who else? Gun, alcohol, media, cigarettes to an extent...) pushed this through.

So either you have: Some major financial power deliberately hitting drug companies (internal conflict) or you have politicians that aren't following the money = absolute power hypothesis.

And why do people keep getting banned? I'm confused.

Hasbinbad
03-08-2010, 03:08 PM
The differences between a constitutional republic and a representative democracy are subtle enough for the purpose of discussing relative powers of banks to government, the distinction is not massive.
"Representative Democracy" is, by the very definitions of those two words, an oxymoron. It, along with "American Democracy" were invented to distract sheep from the real goal of replacing actual slavery with consumer slavery. It allows people to feel like they have power to cause real change, but in fact the only elements of the system malleable by citizens are those which are selected for us. For instance, try and vote us out of Iraq.

"Representative Democracy" and "American Democracy" are actually two euphamisms for our unique system of military/government/media/corporate authority over people. If you look at JUST the governmental aspect, it can be described most correctly as a "constitutional republic," but to thus ignore the other major power centers of this country (the bombs [military - this includes paramilitary organizations {e.g. Blackwater}], media influence, & money, respectively) would be sticking your head in the sand in a major way.

IRS
03-08-2010, 06:04 PM
But Ikeren needs "Evidence"

Hasbinbad
03-08-2010, 06:57 PM
But Ikeren needs "Evidence"
Some truths are held to be self-evident.

Ikeren
03-08-2010, 08:29 PM
No. Representative democracy is a system to be contrasted with direct democracy. Direct democracy is where everyone votes on every issue. This being unweildly in large democratic or semi-democratic nations, most of them have switched to direct democracy, where the people elect a leader by popular vote (or, in the US case, a system of electing people to elect a leader). Indirect democracies are not less democracies.

Hypothetically, real change could happen within the system, though I agree with you that it is unlikely. I would argue, however, that it is not a result of the government system itself, but the result of the people working in that government system, the conventions that arose around it, and the media.

The issue of Iraq is interesting because there are material conditions. No leader would disengage a war---any war, if they thought it was going to lead to severe counter-attacks. Which political leaders have repeatedly said they believe (whether they do or not is impossible to know).

Representative Democracy exists in a lot of countries other than the US, that have similar trouble with corporate media influences on their people and their government without the military-industrial complex influncing the government as well (Canada, Australia, some EU states that have very minimal militaries).

I feel like we mostly agree that
1) The media is a major problem.
2) The current incarnations of corporate capitalism are a major problem.
3) The current political structure of many democratic nations are a problem.
4) The interactions of these things are a problem.
5) The military-complex is a problem in the nations with it (The US, obviously).

I feel like the point at which we disagree on is the material capability of a good government. *If people were sufficiently educated and aware of what was going on around them, I think real change could come, either by revolution or by simple pressure on political candidates, that realize things have to change.

I think another major difference on where we stand is I think the best way to convince people is reasonable, academic argument, working with ideas they already accept; ie, working within the paradigm that this system has set up (like Noam Chomsky does). Alternative theorists don't do that; and that's my complaint. The same goal, but I'm under the impression that the methods of conspiracy theorists often undermine that goal, not support it.

For example, see the line that says '*If people' up above? Imagine that line finished..."If people broke free from the shackles of corrupt society that have imprisoned them so long and rise up and seize the rotting flesh of totallitarian america and rend it from its bones! Voltaire Those who kill shall be put to death unless they murder in large numbers to sound of trumpets"...think about how much less coherent I'd sound to people who don't already believe me?

Sword
03-09-2010, 11:37 AM
And your list of small potatoes are made possible by *stealing* peoples property and stepping all over their god given rights ( Life, liberty, property)

seriously, 1. the media is a major problem?

If that's your first argument you don't know what's really going on at all.

ps. still waiting on EVIDENCE that i'm wrong.

Ikeren
03-09-2010, 01:58 PM
Uh, if you're Contactus, I posted an argument that gave a reasonable explanation of you being wrong. It's near the top of this page (9).

Not sure what the stealing property thing, unless you're referring to the entire slaughtering the people native to this continent/spreading disease and then stealing their land, but not sure that's relevant. Perhaps you could explain what you mean a little more?

(And religion isn't the basis for rights any more; those are constitutional rights, not god given).

I am certain that the media is a large part of the problem. The media works to distract people from the major issues (read the censored project, or Noam Chomsky, or watch Manufacturing Consent), provides biased coverage and partial information to convince people to their side (Watch Outfoxed, or read any independent study of the media in the last 20 years). The way the media is being used these days is a major factor, if not the biggest factor, that is preventing realistic change in modern democratic nations.

Hasbinbad
03-09-2010, 02:17 PM
god given rights ( Life, liberty, property)
Get your fucking sun-god cult out of my government.

Hasbinbad
03-09-2010, 02:23 PM
Read all Noam Chomsky books, and watch Manufacturing Consent.
Fix'd.

I still think representative democracy is a an oxymoron. Look up the definition of the words. It literally cannot exist. I feel that it is euphamism at best, and blatant bullshit at worst, to say that America functions on anything CLOSE to a democracy. It is absolutely foolish. It is the equivalent of not being able to see (or refusing to see) a giant pink elephant in a round empty room.

Sword
03-09-2010, 03:09 PM
You dumbasses don't even know the basis of the argument which comes down to life, liberty, and property.

Keep listening to your "world news tv" and reading your yahoo news articles on the internet. Every post you idiots make show how ignorant you are to the obvious facts.

Do yourself a favor go read the declaration of independance and the constitution word for word like a real american does and then tell me if "god and religion" should be excluded from politics. Once you dumbasses divide god from politics you just shat on all your rights.

The fact that you argue about what type of governmet is being used shows how fucking stupid you are! Talk about having your head in the sand.

And you didn't show me any "EVIDENCE" that i'm wrong. Just strayed from the point and rambled about the medical industry and how you don't like the media. So i'm still right untill any "EVIDENCE" comes up.

Sword
03-09-2010, 03:20 PM
Since I already know what ignorant responses you idiots will make i'll respond to them right now...

Go read the constitution and learn it because your response is made obvious that you didn't. Go read everything else that I mentioned in previous posts because it is once again made obvious you know nothing about politics except what is put on the news.

Stop asking google questions about politics because you get the same stupid rambles you idiots seem to copy and paste acting like you thought it up when it clearly strays from all points. Look where it got you.. debating on if this is a democracy, dictatorship, or a republic, etc... only idiots argue over that and thats exactly what your news articles and corrupt polititions want you to puzzle over while they drive you further into communism.

IRS
03-09-2010, 03:33 PM
Just let them rant with each other about poinless dribble. They assume they know it all already and search engine anything they don't not concidering any sources.

Can't teach a sheep to read.

Sword
03-09-2010, 03:40 PM
Uh, if you're Contactus, I posted an argument that gave a reasonable explanation of you being wrong. It's near the top of this page (9).

Not sure what the stealing property thing, unless you're referring to the entire slaughtering the people native to this continent/spreading disease and then stealing their land, but not sure that's relevant. Perhaps you could explain what you mean a little more?

(And religion isn't the basis for rights any more; those are constitutional rights, not god given).

I am certain that the media is a large part of the problem. The media works to distract people from the major issues (read the censored project, or Noam Chomsky, or watch Manufacturing Consent), provides biased coverage and partial information to convince people to their side (Watch Outfoxed, or read any independent study of the media in the last 20 years). The way the media is being used these days is a major factor, if not the biggest factor, that is preventing realistic change in modern democratic nations.

http://feltworks.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sheep.jpg

IRS
03-09-2010, 03:50 PM
LMAO!
The humor will be lost on them because they havn't read the declaration of independence. :(

But I have 20 bucks on them reading the document and still not figuring it out.

Hasbinbad
03-09-2010, 04:01 PM
You dumbasses don't even know the basis of the argument which comes down to life, liberty, and property.

Keep listening to your "world news tv" and reading your yahoo news articles on the internet. Every post you idiots make show how ignorant you are to the obvious facts.

Do yourself a favor go read the declaration of independance and the constitution word for word like a real american does and then tell me if "god and religion" should be excluded from politics. Once you dumbasses divide god from politics you just shat on all your rights.

The fact that you argue about what type of governmet is being used shows how fucking stupid you are! Talk about having your head in the sand.

And you didn't show me any "EVIDENCE" that i'm wrong. Just strayed from the point and rambled about the medical industry and how you don't like the media. So i'm still right untill any "EVIDENCE" comes up.

Since I already know what ignorant responses you idiots will make i'll respond to them right now...

Go read the constitution and learn it because your response is made obvious that you didn't. Go read everything else that I mentioned in previous posts because it is once again made obvious you know nothing about politics except what is put on the news.

Stop asking google questions about politics because you get the same stupid rambles you idiots seem to copy and paste acting like you thought it up when it clearly strays from all points. Look where it got you.. debating on if this is a democracy, dictatorship, or a republic, etc... only idiots argue over that and thats exactly what your news articles and corrupt polititions want you to puzzle over while they drive you further into communism.

http://feltworks.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sheep.jpg
Sorry to hijack, but I couldn't resist this.

Sooo many people get this wrong every day. IT'S JUST AN UNFORTUNATE COINCIDENCE ALANIS!!!

Finally some real irony.

Sword SAYS that we are DUMB for trying to EXAMINE our government, which implies that one should blindly follow one's government without asking questions. Yet in the same thread, he calls us sheep with a negative implication.

Swords implied meaning: People who question the nature of government and authority are stupid. (communists)

Swords literal meaning: People who do not question the nature of authority are stupid. (sheep)

Since Sword's literal meaning is in opposition to his implied meaning, his whining is ironic.

IRS
03-09-2010, 05:32 PM
It's definately lost on them. Everyone owes me 20 bucks.

Hasbinbad
03-09-2010, 05:49 PM
It's definately lost on them. Everyone owes me 20 bucks.
Just as soon as you give me my TBB back.

Sword
03-09-2010, 05:54 PM
Sorry to hijack, but I couldn't resist this.

Sooo many people get this wrong every day. IT'S JUST AN UNFORTUNATE COINCIDENCE ALANIS!!!

Finally some real irony.

Sword SAYS that we are DUMB for trying to EXAMINE our government, which implies that one should blindly follow one's government without asking questions. Yet in the same thread, he calls us sheep with a negative implication.

Swords implied meaning: People who question the nature of government and authority are stupid. (communists)

Swords literal meaning: People who do not question the nature of authority are stupid. (sheep)

Since Sword's literal meaning is in opposition to his implied meaning, his whining is ironic.

Desperate reaching of insults deserves desperate sheep in need of warmth...
http://feltworks.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sheep.jpg

Hasbinbad
03-09-2010, 06:04 PM
Desperate reaching of insults deserves desperate sheep in need of warmth...
I didn't need to reach. The idiocy inherent in your sequence of posts was obvious. The fact that you don't see how it is so obvious speaks volumes about your self-perception.

People like you are why the terrorists hate us.

Your blind adhesion to something you don't comprehend makes you just as much of a fanatic as any given Jihadist, and actually people like you are the reason for their "ends justify the means" attitude.

Zithax
03-09-2010, 06:22 PM
some dumb motherfuckers up in here yo

Ikeren
03-09-2010, 07:33 PM
On the discussion of direct democracy, representative democracy, and what the US really has.

The voting every few years seems to imply a representative democracy. I will agree that it is not a strong representative democracy, because it seems that the representatives are 1) Aligned among a vary narrow spectrum and 2) Generally doing a sub-par job of representing. However, the reason I still think representative democracy is the right name is because the US could hypothetically get a strong leader representing very different ideals (say, a better version of Nader), and elect them. The thing that is preventing them is not the Republic itself, but the way it is set up, where corporations give money to politicians, the media sides with politicians, and a winning bet is worth substantially more than a losing one.

I really like Chomsky, but telling someone to read all his books is a lot of work. I'm happy to work on a base level.


On the subject of Media: I am glad Sword agrees that it is a problem, though seemingly for different reasons.

On the subject of constitution and declaration of independence: I read them last semester. That does not prevent me from still believing that the separation of church and state is a good thing. Sword, since the separation of church and state, the rights outlined in the declaration have been extended by constitutional ammendments. Your conflation of church and right argument doesn't stand.

Also, Sword, don't dismiss the medicine argument; read it, then explain why it is wrong. Furthermore, read the argument about proving negatives (it's a couple pages back). Then explain why you are right. (Also, perhaps give your previous posting names, so I can look back at your arguments, other than the most recent (that church and state should be together)).

I also assure you nothing I've written thus far has been copied and pasted. However, if I've been missing the point, perhaps you could put it simpler? Right now you seem to be dancing around quite a few issues (Church and state, economic theory, and how the US is on a track towards communism.)

I am particularly interested in your explanation of how the US is headed towards communism, as asserted in this line: "corrupt polititions want you to puzzle over while they drive you further into communism." Usually the complaint is that the capitalist system is becoming far too prevelant in all things; not that it is being undermined.


On blind adherence to belief: I think we all agree that blindly adhering to a system of belief is bad, right? The problem is that agreeing on that point has led us in very different directions, and different ways of expressing...informational systems that one at the moment thinks is true.

I think this thread would be more productive if people stuck with coherent arguments, and examined each idea carefully.

Sword
03-10-2010, 11:46 AM
Since it's made obvious none of you have read your god given rights yet you sound like a 12 year old sifting through yahoo news articles trying to prove a point lost on you...

enjoy reaching ...
http://feltworks.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sheep.jpg

Hasbinbad
03-10-2010, 01:45 PM
Since it's made obvious none of you have read your god given rights
My rights are given to me by the Flying Spaghetti Monster, TYVM.

Your false god and heathen ways will bring you straight to the land of Nod where there is no stripper factory nor beer volcano.

Ikeren
03-10-2010, 02:02 PM
What makes it obvious? I pointed out earlier that I'm Canadian, and I've read our Constitution (which grants me my rights, not god), I've read the US declaration of independence, and the US constitution, and just because they used the word god does not mean it's not an anachronism.

I honestly feel like you are either unwilling or incapable of addressing any of the content in any of my posts, and thus, repeat yourself. Even if you actually thought what I was saying had no value, you'd explain why so that anyone who reads this discussion is swayed to your Pro-Church and State, Anti-communism, side.

Sword
03-10-2010, 04:25 PM
None of you have provided EVIDENCE that i'm wrong. Guess i'm right then.

http://feltworks.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sheep.jpg

Ikeren
03-10-2010, 10:43 PM
Argument: Rights have gotten better since the separation of church and states.

Evidence: Bill of Rights Ratifications
Evidence: Bill of Rights Amendments.
Evidence: Non constitutional extension of rights such as:
Abortion, Gay marriage, reductions in institutionalized discrimination (women, for example, have been better off from the 60's onwards, though not the best rate of production, not to the full equality all members of society deserve).

I look forward to you proving that all these things didn't happen after the separation of church and state.


Also, I said to reread my argument about proving negatives. You haven't proven me wrong, either, so I guess we're both right?

Hasbinbad
03-10-2010, 10:59 PM
The thing is that he's using a God argument, which you cannot logically argue with because it is not a logical premise in the first place.

For instance, if I stated that I have magical powers, how would you prove me wrong?

IRS
03-10-2010, 11:19 PM
"All men are created equal."

Wrap your brains around that dumbasses.

Ikeren
03-11-2010, 03:36 AM
He said "Separating church and state. That's what allowed the government to shit all over everyones rights" or something along those lines. A god's existence or non-existence is irrelevant; all that's needed is a correlation of rights after the separation of church and state---easily done.

@IRS: Okay, done. What's next?

Lanor
03-11-2010, 04:13 AM
You guys do realize you're arguing with some weirdo that joins exp groups and gets off to discussing how he's using his laptop in his kitchen while he makes microwave pad thai...

Right?

some dumb motherfuckers up in here yo

Hasbinbad
03-11-2010, 09:23 AM
Idiot premise #1: "God gave me my rights, prove me wrong, or I'm right and you're an idiot."

Idiot premise #2: "I can fly when nobody else is looking, prove me wrong, or I'm right and you're an idiot."

Both premises are based on the same "logic."

Finawin
03-11-2010, 10:50 AM
Even removing the God portion of the statement, the basic premise is still there.

There's no reason to get caught up in semantics or on the simple fact its a religious statement in origin.

Ikeren
03-11-2010, 04:43 PM
Heh, Lanor. When a group has been sitting silent for 4 hours aside from the pull messages, I get bored, try to start a conversation. Didn't realize you were annoyed; sorry. I find food is usually a good random conversation starter; everyone loves food.


Proving certain things: Hasbin is right if he specifically said that, but I think the wording was more around the premise that "Separation of church and state led to a loss of rights," and while using the language of god, that argument is still counterable, by demonstrating a correlation of rights after the separation of church and state. As I did.

That being said, I agree that god is a weak premise in a modern context.