Thread about why You Hate Luclin

[Korrano]

I'm just curious on everyone's thoughts on this, given some people like and some people hate. I want to know why you hate it. :confused:
Now, why do you hate Luclin?

[Mead]

you can't stop luclin

[shutdown]

I enjoyed ssra temple and vex thal. Planes of power was the tipping point for me to quit.

[Foxplay]

The new Graphics (character models) , and laughably bad animations

[Korrano]

The new Graphics (character models) , and laughably bad animations

Some animations were bad and yeah some new character models were eugh but not all.

[Tethler]

Character models, VT key quest, large barren zones.

That said, worth it for the QoL improvements and AA.

[Imago]

Grieg's End

[Korrano]

Character models, VT key quest, large barren zones.

That said, worth it for the QoL improvements and AA.

VT / VT Key chain was absolutely awful an hard.
Lots of barren zones but room for improvement if they added more to it.

[Jimjam]

It's more that I don't love it.

I did like PC (newbie zones were already dieing before SoL was released!), echo caverns or netherbian lair. It was fun questing light crawler armour on my brother's rogue.

What I didn't like was how it was basically an early attempt at EQ 2 (don't bother with the old world, everything you need is here now) but at the same time you couldn't really gear up for SoL raid content using SoL; you had to go back and farm velious, which meant farming faction too.

I always felt raid content was tested wrong on EQ, it should have been tested by toons that had gear from the new expansion, not the previous xpacs best in slot.

[Korrano]

It's more that I don't love it.

I did like PC (newbie zones were already dieing before SoL was released!), echo caverns or netherbian lair. It was fun questing light crawler armour on my brother's rogue.

What I didn't like was how it was basically an early attempt at EQ 2 (don't bother with the old world, everything you need is here now) but at the same time you couldn't really gear up for SoL raid content using SoL; you had to go back and farm velious, which meant farming faction too.

I always felt raid content was tested wrong on EQ, it should have been tested by toons that had gear from the new expansion, not the previous xpacs best in slot.

I loooved Echo and Netherbian lair, some of my favorite zones but yeah. I think this was their addition to help make more places for low levels to xp that had good meaning along with finding loot sometimes as well.

[Domisk]

Cats on the moon....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEkkocMJQgM

[DMN]

I actually didn't play during SoL. Still, just say no to furries.

[Cen]

Nexus and its porting system, and the new character models except for Barbarians and Iksar.


I love Beastlords though and consider that one of the greatest class ideas. Maybe just not at the expansion outset the way the pets worked before fixed to be like mages and necros. I think Paldulal Caverns and the bazaar are cool.

I'm indifferent to Vah Shir.

[Evia]

Luclin hinted to the end of eq with its quality of life "improvements" beginning to emerge. Planes of Power sealed the deal tho.


Big cons of luclin:
-took me out of a tolkein style fantasy land and into SPACE! (Wait, come again?)
-introduced CATMAN! Uh from SPACE! (Is this still the same game?)
-teleporting begins with spires (and one step closer to teleport books)
-bazaar. While i agree convenient as hell, destroyed the player interaction bartering which was a big part of the game.
-new models and animations were ALL terrible! Someone in this thread said they "weren't all bad" yes I'm sorry they were. Spell casting, sitting, standing, swinging weapons and even just running looked strange and clunky.
-luclin ushered the start of making old content obsolete. Classic-velious had balance and luclin started to ruin that. An example is paludal caverns destroying any other previous leveling zone 1-24.

Pros of luclin:
-shared bank begins i think?
-beastlords
-ssra temple was kinda fun?
-alternate advancement making classes like the Ranger finally complete.

[Zuranthium]

Luclin world felt too disconnected from what came before, had less interesting zones in design and lore, and never made sense on a basic level to me either. I wasn't convinced that it encompassed the full surface of a moon, nor that the ecosystems/structures/residents made any sense whatsoever. The bazaar deservedly gets hate for how it broke down player interaction and local economy, but really why the fuck is there this random bazaar, far away from anything else, in the underground of the moon, randomly connected to a teleporter room, which is randomly connected to some nondescript town called Shadow Haven?

There were tons of unnecessary time sinks, between the keys for zones and the AA's, and they didn't balance the zones well in comparison to previous content. I also thought the mounts were stupid and most of the new models sucked. The new class of Beastlord was not well designed, even though the base idea fits well for EQ; instead of going out into the wilds and actually being a "beast lord", you just summoned one, and then had to throw all these buffs on the pet that made no sense. The class randomly had Shaman spells and a mana regen buff in addition to their powerful pet and decent melee capability. Seems like they just wanted to create a class that could solo uber easy, while being caster and melee at the same time, thus letting the casual players feel like they could do everything. Beastlords were an essentially useless addition to the upper end of the game (their DPS lessened at highest levels and scaled poorly against high level mobs); only their mana regen buff made them relevant, which makes no sense thematically. I did like how each race got a different pet visual, but eh, a poorly thought-out mishmash overall.

[Hibbs]

Me looking for dragons on the moon..

https://i.imgur.com/RPUPKZS.gif

[Jlpstrtkng]

I liked luclin. Sue me

[Cecily]

People say P99 be like it is but it do.

[kjs86z]

People say P99 be like it is but it do.

well said

[Korrano]

Luclin hinted to the end of eq with its quality of life "improvements" beginning to emerge. Planes of Power sealed the deal tho.


Big cons of luclin:
-took me out of a tolkein style fantasy land and into SPACE! (Wait, come again?)
-introduced CATMAN! Uh from SPACE! (Is this still the same game?)
-teleporting begins with spires (and one step closer to teleport books)
-bazaar. While i agree convenient as hell, destroyed the player interaction bartering which was a big part of the game.
-new models and animations were ALL terrible! Someone in this thread said they "weren't all bad" yes I'm sorry they were. Spell casting, sitting, standing, swinging weapons and even just running looked strange and clunky.
-luclin ushered the start of making old content obsolete. Classic-velious had balance and luclin started to ruin that. An example is paludal caverns destroying any other previous leveling zone 1-24.

Pros of luclin:
-shared bank begins i think?
-beastlords
-ssra temple was kinda fun?
-alternate advancement making classes like the Ranger finally complete.


Bazaar made some interesting stuff beside the killing the whole immersive trading in EC, but yeah that could begone. They shouldn't have even added spires it just made wizards and droods a bit obsolete, that being said. Looking at some of the old zones and how popular the game was back at the time, I think they were trying to alleviate the crowded zones with more newer zones that can compete to stop the clutter but given how nice some of the zones were an how Brutal the other zones were in comparison was just very rough.

I felt like the newest addition to content they pushed it made it a bit easier to maintain mana and other stuff as well with a whole new slew of twink gear and such.

[commongood]

It wasn't that I hated Luclin. Parts of luclin I really liked. Mainly the AA points system. It was great cause you still gained something on the exp-axis from doing stuff at level 60.

I liked the Ssra Temple both in terms of lore (connected to the Shissar) and as a raiding zone. The bits I remember.

I also kinda enjoyed getting mounts as a not-too-offensive QOL improvement.

I did NOT like the general lore of the expansion. As others have mentioned the whole into-space theme was a giant mishit imo and removed it too far from the Tolkien-inspired origins of the game.

I did NOT enjoy the Vex Thal raiding experience. I have no clue if it would be "solved" on a time locked server and don't remember how the zone mechanics worked and if it would be possible to do pulls to entrance like what we see in Ntov and VP on P99. But I remember it being hours and hours of clearing trash... maybe 3-4 hours. With one two named mobs (the Goo-twins). And then finally getting to "candy land" of a boss every half and hour for 2-3 hours. There's no way I could envision myself committing to 6-8 hour non-stop raiding sessions.

[White_knight]

The whole "cat race thing is stupid", is stupid. Kunark introduced lizard men, and catmen were part of eq lore already from classic.

Ssra was an amazing zone, and raids in luclin were a whole lot funner (except vt) than anything before (which only consisted of tank and spanx and avoid aoe x y z).

AAs
Focus effects
Knighta becoming amazing
Rangers becoming amazing
Wizards becoming amazing
Beastlords
Bazaar
20min continent 2 nexus portal system

The shity space stuff they included and terrible model updates really only thing people can complain about but you can solve the terrible model thing by disabling them.

[White_knight]

Luclin world felt too disconnected from what came before, had less interesting zones in design and lore, and never made sense on a basic level to me either. I wasn't convinced that it encompassed the full surface of a moon, nor that the ecosystems/structures/residents made any sense whatsoever. The bazaar deservedly gets hate for how it broke down player interaction and local economy, but really why the fuck is there this random bazaar, far away from anything else, in the underground of the moon, randomly connected to a teleporter room, which is randomly connected to some nondescript town called Shadow Haven?

There were tons of unnecessary time sinks, between the keys for zones and the AA's, and they didn't balance the zones well in comparison to previous content. I also thought the mounts were stupid and most of the new models sucked. The new class of Beastlord was not well designed, even though the base idea fits well for EQ; instead of going out into the wilds and actually being a "beast lord", you just summoned one, and then had to throw all these buffs on the pet that made no sense. The class randomly had Shaman spells and a mana regen buff in addition to their powerful pet and decent melee capability. Seems like they just wanted to create a class that could solo uber easy, while being caster and melee at the same time, thus letting the casual players feel like they could do everything. Beastlords were an essentially useless addition to the upper end of the game (their DPS lessened at highest levels and scaled poorly against high level mobs); only their mana regen buff made them relevant, which makes no sense thematically. I did like how each race got a different pet visual, but eh, a poorly thought-out mishmash overall.

Paragon, stackable mind candy, single target dps boost buff 6min +100atk buff boosting a rogues dps substantially - think you could keep it rotated on 2 rogues too esp since it stacked with avatar.

Beastlords lacked on dps directly but a well played one was good on raids. Having a handful of Beastlords helped CH chains/casters nuke more esp. If you MGBed Paragon every one after the other.

People never factored in the amount of surplus dps beastlords bought to raids with their tool kit. Only looked at dps charts, and went meh.

Beastlords could let 2-3 extra chs per cleric, 2-3 extra nukes per casters 2-3 extra necro pumps to clerics before everyone goes OOM.

[ScaringChildren]

The character models.

They were what made me quit back when Luclin came out.

[utenan]

the zone design -
https://i.imgur.com/OtYhIYj.jpg

[Zabbix]

the zone design -
naw

They had lots of practice with Velious.

[Mblake1981]

The landmass/ocean islands between classic - velious was enough to support a very large population but a good portion of zones are wastelands. A couple dungeons tossed in.

This was the rage back then, every expansion had to be bigger and better but they all lacked the cohesion the original game had. If any models or zone layouts were familiar then it was a "Copy Pasted" expansion. You can see them failing during this time as other MMO's, perhaps lacking the RPG, were coming out.

Spread legged, uninspired, goofy looking, retardedly animated models for the sole purpose of riding a game breaking mount that was equally retarded. No charm in them, no butt scratchin

Long gone were the days of medding with your spellbook open, a granite stone fantasy UI. Less RPG and more VIDYA GAME OMG.. RAIDZ, all aboot mah RAIDZ.

Strip out RPG aspects that made the world interesting in search of the perfect raidz game.

Note: original-velious lacked visual cohesion, couldn't because of emerging graphics tech and the fear of copy pasta. Imo kunark and velious giants should look like Rath Mtn giants, Kael giants having armor graphics.

Hard pass on anything post velious.. even then Kunark and Velious are questionable. For sure not up to par with the original.

[YendorLootmonkey]

alternate advancement making classes like the Ranger finally complete.

Endless Quiver, Archery Mastery 3, and my fellow members of our Trueshot firing squad were my favorite raiding experiences in Live in the SoL/PoP era.

[Muggens]

Luclin was all out terrible. Zones, bazaar, port spires, AAs, char models and their animations, vah shir etc. I knew then the game was dead to me.
Long live P99 classic EQ

[E-Queue]

AAs and beastlords were a great addition, but I hated everything else. Models, animations, zone design, insanely grindy key quests, the setting in general...

[Tecmos Deception]

I have fond memories of before Luclin and shitty memories from during and after Luclin. The official pronunciation annoys me. Outer space doesn't mesh well with high fantasy for me. Power creep got into full swing (on live, anyway; the extended timeline has power creep in full swing since a 6 months into Velious on here or something like that), both in the gearing treadmill sense and in the "there's now a ridiculous gap between the casual players and the hardcore players that wasn't very pronounced in classic and kunark (and velious on live, generally, but not on here)." Nexus and bazaar removed a lot of positive flavor elements from the game, or at least relegated them to backburners. If they had forced those awful new models on us back then, that alone would have been a dealbreaker; wow, they were awful... and not in the nostalgic, cute, oldschool kind of way.

Yeah, beastlords were pretty cool. I don't mind the cats in and of themselves. Bazaar was a time saver. AAs could have been worse (I enjoy multiple avenues of progression, not just a gear grind that is present once you max out in classic EQ). But the negatives far outweight the positives, imo.

[Zuranthium]

Paragon, stackable mind candy, single target dps boost buff 6min +100atk buff boosting a rogues dps substantially - think you could keep it rotated on 2 rogues too esp since it stacked with avatar.

Beastlords lacked on dps directly but a well played one was good on raids. Having a handful of Beastlords helped CH chains/casters nuke more esp. If you MGBed Paragon every one after the other.

People never factored in the amount of surplus dps beastlords bought to raids with their tool kit. Only looked at dps charts, and went meh.

Beastlords could let 2-3 extra chs per cleric, 2-3 extra nukes per casters 2-3 extra necro pumps to clerics before everyone goes OOM.

Random buffs are not what a "Beastlord" should be doing. This is just a pile of stats, it's not good design. The class didn't bring any new mechanic to the game that made them necessary for a specific function; you never needed a Beastlord to do anything in the same way that other defining abilities allowed classes to bring something unique to the game world. They were just an overpowered class for leveling up that only remained relevant in the endgame because of unthematic buffs.

As I said, I like the base concept of a class that can be DPS through an equal combination of their own damage + pet, but that really should be something Rangers can do in the first place; a "Beastlord" should just be one way you can spec the Ranger class. They didn't even implement that part of it correctly though, instead the class had a super powerful pet (encroaching on what Mages should be the premiere class at), then gave them Shaman spells to have a full set of "hybrid" abilities since the base idea of the class was too narrow by itself, and then they threw on the extra buff crap to make them relevant for raids, which made them even more OP for non-raid kind of play.

[kuervo410]

+'s bazaar was cool, dyed gear, free ports, paludal caverns xp wow , centi long sword

[turbosilk]

Luclin was overall good and so was PoP. All downhill after. Luclin goes way up when you dump the spires, bazaar and character models.

[kaluppo]

I hated the new character models.

[Bergen]

I hated the zone design, was meh about the model updates, but I loved BSTs.

Had fond memories of the early BST days... the warder was an Ability that you summoned and then Buffed to appropriate level. We figured out quick that you could get the Befriend Animal drop from LFay and use it to charm random animals, buff them insanely, and then leave/reenter a zone to watch the carnage the now massively overpowered pet would wreak on unsuspecting people.

Oh, and I guess Pet Clericing... casting the buff spell on the pet would CH it in the beginning.

I'm indifferent to Vah Shir.

It's okay, they're indifferent to everyone, too.

[branamil]

How a game designer could look at those character models and think "hmm, looks good to me!" is mind blowing

[Mblake81]

How a game designer could look at those character models and think "hmm, looks good to me!" is mind blowing

Same with the art styles.

From Keith Parkinson (https://www.keithparkinson.com/)

https://i.imgur.com/WvJInq7.jpg?1

To ? and whatever the hell this is for Omens of War.

https://i.imgur.com/24Rc2Tj.jpg?1

[Keza]

I was so young playing SoL that my memories of it are pretty vague. I remember zones, some spells, Vah Shir/Beastlords ofc. PLing 1-20 in 4.2 seconds in Nethlair. Overall I guess I didn't play it enough to hate it as much as most people seem to, but I'd wager their hatred for it is the same as people who hate anything after the OT of Star Wars, or movies that aren't identical to the books. Not a hatred based out of logic, just because 'it's not what they like', and what they like is what they saw first. Like the people who claim Fortnite is the best video game ever because it's the only one they ever played.

Though I can't say the character models ever appealed to me. The humanoid models look ok but their animations are crap. The ogres/trolls etc and especially Iksar I hated even when I was like 12. Mainly if I had to hate something it would be power creep. This really starts in Kunark, as most classic gear is trash, but of course with every new xpac it gets worse and worse. On the flip side, for this server power creep doesn't impact much for low levels because everyone is already twinked to the point of being stat capped halfway through character creation and while it would make farming higher level stuff (how many camps need more than 1 enchanter again?) more trivial the gear would be less important.

All in all I want green more than Luclin, but I'd come back to blue for Luclin all the same. I'm not pronouncing it 'luck-lin' though. I don't give a damn if 'loose-lin' isn't official or even grammatically accurate!

[utenan]

Overall I guess I didn't play it enough to hate it as much as most people seem to, but I'd wager their hatred for it is the same as people who hate anything after the OT of Star Wars, or movies that aren't identical to the books. Not a hatred based out of logic, just because 'it's not what they like', and what they like is what they saw first. Like the people who claim Fortnite is the best video game ever because it's the only one they ever played.

You just came in to a thread where people are giving specific, detailed reasons for disliking the expansion, and said that everyone's hatred is illogical? Meanwhile you said you don't even know much about the expansion yourself so....dunno if you're the right one to judge in this case

[Tnair]

All the things that destroyed the functionality of old-world zones .. the bazaar and teleports, mostly.

I'm so, so glad that the Pantheon plan explicitly includes keeping old zones relevant in multiple ways.

[Hakubi]

It's been decades so I barely remember it. Only that THE worst was newer abilities and power creep trivialized content from older expansions (I'm talking to you mana burn). This was offensively bad considering the prior expansion content was THE best era of EQ and deserved more respect than to be shit on that hard (even though it's pretty rote execution for raiding here now and less of an issue in 2019 with all the known exploits, repetition, and skeleton farm crews)

Bad:
- Key quests and bane weapons
- Shit atmosphere, zones, and art. Never got the tinglies finding a dungeon like Dalnir or Droga
- Made velious mudflation look like a walk in the park
- Nexus trivialized travel and thus the demand for Wizard and Druid services
- Mounts were goofy (but on the flip side gave people a plat sink and something to desire)
- Raiding was now an XXL sock commitment.
- I don't remember it being very PUG friendly and what was around wasn't going to make you rich like say, a fungi or T-staff would have.

Good:
- Class balance really fleshed out some of those dealt shittier hands, I'd love to play a ranger again
- AA's were amazing and still one of the best additions to the game ever
- Mages weren't blueballed by the epic so much
- Bazaar. Yes this was an amazing addition, people saying there is "player interaction" in EC are very special people. It's the misguided POE philosophy, most people hate doing it and it takes up too much damn time better spent playing the actual game. There was still bartering in the Bazaar too, the only downside was no comfy rain to listen to and just as shit visuals.
- Clickes and gear from the raid scene really let you do some cool things and gave you something to work towards. The shrink wand among a billion other things.
- The invisible bridge was fun

Overall I enjoyed Luclin. It just dropped the ball hard in some places and at the expense of some really great prior content. Luclin set the stage for POP and they go together like PB&J... other than Velious POP was THE best point EQ was ever at. Luclin by itself was just a low.

[pallius]

Most of it is dark and gloomy graphics. Really preferred the art of Velious.

[Jaleth]

Luclin hinted to the end of eq with its quality of life "improvements" beginning to emerge. Planes of Power sealed the deal tho.


Big cons of luclin:
-took me out of a tolkein style fantasy land and into SPACE! (Wait, come again?)
-introduced CATMAN! Uh from SPACE! (Is this still the same game?)
-teleporting begins with spires (and one step closer to teleport books)
-bazaar. While i agree convenient as hell, destroyed the player interaction bartering which was a big part of the game.
-new models and animations were ALL terrible! Someone in this thread said they "weren't all bad" yes I'm sorry they were. Spell casting, sitting, standing, swinging weapons and even just running looked strange and clunky.
-luclin ushered the start of making old content obsolete. Classic-velious had balance and luclin started to ruin that. An example is paludal caverns destroying any other previous leveling zone 1-24.

Pros of luclin:
-shared bank begins i think?
-beastlords
-ssra temple was kinda fun?
-alternate advancement making classes like the Ranger finally complete.

Well character models appearance is always going to be subjective. The animations were horrible, but I liked my human paladin in armor, not having it "painted" on looking like the Tin man from Wizard of Oz.

Ssra temple was either you loved it or hated, hardly an in-between.

Rangers didn't become complete, the became OP'd (Endless Quiver and True Shot), they could solo reds all day. . .

Well OK maybe I'm going to PoP on that last part.

[bigjeff100]

Definitely gotta hop on board with the graphics/bazaar/teleports complaint.. This took away the feeling of everquest.

I woulda definitely still kept playing regardless, but my parents computer couldn't handle all the changes. And i was too young to afford or save up for a new graphics card let alone know anything about the installation of one.

[Saludeen]

I actually liked Luclin although I wasn't a fan of the "trogdolite alien atmosphere" as much as typical fantasy zones. And I couldn't stand EXP while mounted. Its just weird and takes away from playing the character with people sitting on their mounts doing damage. Teleports ruined it too and the world was just too big and turned into instances without the need to travel or connect locations.

[Clazxiss]

I notice many people listing the negative aspects of SoL being about the AA and past content being rendered obsolete. This was not true.

What I liked about SoL was the ability to explore and experience zones that were normally on lockdown for loot. Those "obsolete" zones people complain about were not left barren. On my original server the top guilds created the same bottleneck of content that many people see on P99. Their pattern was this, lock down every raid boss in the current expansion plus the top mobs in the previous expansion. SoL offered enough raid mobs though that the intermediate guilds were able to swipe a few kills. It was fun to finally raid Nagafen, Vox, PoH, PoF without having to poop sock.

Bazaar made some interesting stuff beside the killing the whole immersive trading in EC, but yeah that could begone. They shouldn't have even added spires it just made wizards and droods a bit obsolete, that being said. Looking at some of the old zones and how popular the game was back at the time, I think they were trying to alleviate the crowded zones with more newer zones that can compete to stop the clutter but given how nice some of the zones were an how Brutal the other zones were in comparison was just very rough.

I felt like the newest addition to content they pushed it made it a bit easier to maintain mana and other stuff as well with a whole new slew of twink gear and such.

So many people are wearing their L33t gamer nostalgia goggles and you hit the nail on the head. At the time SoL was released, certain servers were way too populated to function well. I remember running into EC before SoL and just lagging out due to the sheer amount of people occupying the zone. There were times I had to aim my view in first person and stare at the ground to avoid the graphical lag from so many bodies. EQ is not WoW with the way its graphics and processor programming functioned. The game did demand that you not play on a potato if you wanted to raid or go into popular dungeons.

Friendly reminder to everyone. Many of you were playing EQ on a machine using Win 95 or XP! When SoL released, the clutter you found in the popular zones died down enough for those of without gaming rigs to enjoy and explore with friends.

[Gozuk]

Bazaar arena was a blast that's all I remember

[Keza]

You just came in to a thread where people are giving specific, detailed reasons for disliking the expansion, and said that everyone's hatred is illogical? Meanwhile you said you don't even know much about the expansion yourself so....dunno if you're the right one to judge in this case

I obviously wasn't talking about the people in this thread. Note how I said absolutely nothing about anyone at all in this thread, and then said my own dislikes about the xpac in the exact same way as everyone else has. Or is understanding what you're reading too much to ask?

I was referring to people in general who think the game "died" with Luclin, many of which have no reasoning for this and are merely parroting a widely believed perception based heavily on the ill-received graphical rehaul. Which it's fine to dislike the graphics, I didn't like them either, but it's not enough to claim the game is dead.

And yeah, I said my memories were vague, hence my opinion is skewed. I said that to clarify the point. A point you missed, because like your other presumption you've completely made up a different meaning behind the words you read. I guarantee you there is no one in this thread who knows everything about SoL, and there is no one in this thread whose opinion isn't bias. I have my memories of SoL the same as anyone and just like everyone without a perfect memory they are vague. I merely admitted to not remembering every possible thing about SoL that could have been bad, instead of pretending my memories were gospel.

[Mblake1981]

EQ is not WoW with the way its graphics and processor programming functioned. The game did demand that you not play on a potato if you wanted to raid or go into popular dungeons.

Friendly reminder to everyone. Many of you were playing EQ on a machine using Win 95 or XP! When SoL released, the clutter you found in the popular zones died down enough for those of without gaming rigs to enjoy and explore with friends.

A demanding game gave reason to upgrade or build/order a better computer.

I would like to race Ferrari and Porsche cars but I can't afford it.

[Ghostly]

What i hated about Luclin: Everyone who bitched about Luclin.

[theonesler]

I honestly enjoyed Luclin AND PoP - for me they were the peak of play. That's not to say I didn't enjoy Classic (up to Velious) but rather I enjoyed Classic for what it was and then Luclin/PoP was definitely good in a different way.

- I enjoyed the raids Luclin And PoP brought to the game. Lots of different options and I really enjoyed the progression of raids through PoP content. SSRA was awesome!

- The bazaar made trading less intimidating to people who wanted to be a part of the market scene but not commit hours and hours and hours and hours of time staring at the screen waiting for someone to bite on a sale. And I still did plenty of interactive trading in addition to AFK selling at stalls.

- Sure character models were... strange... but I didn't mind. The game was still super fun! I did like the texturing of environments.

- AA's were a great addition to the game. Especially for those who didn't want to be hardcore raiding, AA's presented a whole new element of character progression.

- Focus Effects were a fun addition to item stats.

- Leveling and traveling both became a bit easier, which again, is different from classic but that doesn't mean it's bad. I enjoyed both styles. Spires/books were nice imo.

Overall, I enjoyed the addition of both Luclin and PoP. It went down hill after that for me.

Bonti Coas
40 Dwarf Warrior

[Alanus]

AA sucked. It just made it so you had to grind more exp in zones you already had done a billion times. It made it more of a full time job.

It wasn't all bad, though. Was some nice content for smaller guilds (acrylia burrower, greig, ITV, vadyn, THO) and Ssra was awesome.

[Erati]

new graphics sucked ruined my Robe of Azure Sky

[Senescant]

Because Daldaen enjoys it so much.

[Expediency]

It just wasnt the same game anymore.

Even the cat race was bad. Why would cats be on the moon? They should have just revamped kerra isle to be a full city where the cats start out.

[Bristlebaner]

Character models. The nexus. Skeletons. Wolves. Bazaar. Upgraded textures lost the EQ charm.

[Wonkie]

because you don't always win in luclin and that makes p99 players angry

[Quizlop]

Sure this game has frog people, lizard people, fish people, bird people, cat people, dog people, other lizard people, and wolf people. But CAT PEOPLE!? ON THE MOON!????!?? That's where I draw the line.

[Tuurin]

Sure this game has frog people, lizard people, fish people, bird people, cat people, dog people, other lizard people, and wolf people. But CAT PEOPLE!? ON THE MOON!????!?? That's where I draw the line.

You forgot spider people, horse people, and scorpion people

[Morley]

Character models. I was actually excited at the time. I remember the devs talking about the robes and new high def textures and lighting blah blah blah. Result was my mage looked like he had a bong hit transplant.

[Evia]

Character models. I was actually excited at the time. I remember the devs talking about the robes and new high def textures and lighting blah blah blah. Result was my mage looked like he had a bong hit transplant.

hahaha thats so funny. I actually remember looking up information on alakazam and casters realm about the upcoming luclin expansion and the new character models and textures was what I was looking forward to the most! I remember when the expansion finally launched I bought it on release day and installed it and put on all the models. It took me 15-20 min just to load into the game! and then it was waaayyy laggy! I had to put on new models only for the character I was playing. It took me a month or so of playing with the new models before I realized I missed the way my character used to look and switched back.

[Swish2]

The whole "cat race thing is stupid", is stupid.

https://i.imgur.com/gzb4ZO8.gif

[Swish2]

It just wasnt the same game anymore.

Even the cat race was bad. Why would cats be on the moon? They should have just revamped kerra isle to be a full city where the cats start out.

Whatever race they put in needed another non-evil shaman option, glad they ticked that one off. Most BLs I met were cats, and cat bards were kinda cool honestly :)

I played a cat shaman when the EU servers went live, probably the most fun I had until my guild left to play WoW in 2005 (I followed not long after).

[Ezrick]

Interestingly enough it tried to be the answer to a lot of peoples' complaints about EQ at the time.

1. Teleports - As much as the druids and wizards loved their port exclusivity, the EQ population as a whole hated it.

2. Bazaar - Yep EC was kind of it's own community thing, but players constantly complained they wasted too much time there they could be playing.

3. Difficulty leveling up? Yeah the zones there were super-easy. When live came out the chances of soloing xp mobs for most players was pretty slim. On Luclin I soloed a rogue into his 40's in my spare time. Not sure he ever grouped. Totally impossible before Luclin without massive twinking.

I actually had no problem with the cats (that rogue was a Vah Shir), but yeah, the whole fiction of Luclin always felt a little forced.

The reality is it was an attempt to solve a lot of the most commonly complained about issues with EQ. The solutions, however, did make EQ feel a lot less like EQ.

[Zuranthium]

I love luclin, it took eq someplace it needed to go

classic / kunark / velious offered no progression outside of gear and waiting in line for tov crap[/quote

who wouldn't want luclin?

Where did Luclin take EQ that it needed to go? Just AA's were there as other progression if that's what you mean, which equates to lots of exp grinding. Those were too much of an unnecessary timesink and they don't truly make characters more unique, which is something EQ really needs. EQ also needs more things that require actual player skill (this is the best form of progression).

Instead of every cleric being the same as every other cleric, assuming equal gear and amount of exp grinded, it would be far more interesting if there were various ways to specialize them and if each of those specializations required different individual player ability to perform well. For example - "spike" healing clerics, "pressure" healing clerics, and ditto for protection-based clerics instead of healing (a mechanic EQ doesn't really have at all; everything in the game is just long-duration buffs or heals, specifically a Complete Heal chain when it comes to raiding).

[bluntfang]

Where did Luclin take EQ that it needed to go? Just AA's were there as other progression if that's what you mean, which equates to lots of exp grinding. Those were too much of an unnecessary timesink and they don't truly make characters more unique, which is something EQ really needs. EQ also needs more things that require actual player skill (this is the best form of progression).

Instead of every cleric being the same as every other cleric, assuming equal gear and amount of exp grinded, it would be far more interesting if there were various ways to specialize them and if each of those specializations required different individual player ability to perform well. For example - "spike" healing clerics, "pressure" healing clerics, and ditto for protection-based clerics instead of healing (a mechanic EQ doesn't really have at all; everything in the game is just long-duration buffs or heals, specifically a Complete Heal chain when it comes to raiding).

didn't wow do this and all that really came out of it was preferred min/max builds and everyone followed those builds?

[Mblake1981]

Interestingly enough it tried to be the answer to a lot of peoples' complaints about EQ at the time.

1. Teleports - As much as the druids and wizards loved their port exclusivity, the EQ population as a whole hated it.

2. Bazaar - Yep EC was kind of it's own community thing, but players constantly complained they wasted too much time there they could be playing.

3. Difficulty leveling up? Yeah the zones there were super-easy. When live came out the chances of soloing xp mobs for most players was pretty slim. On Luclin I soloed a rogue into his 40's in my spare time. Not sure he ever grouped. Totally impossible before Luclin without massive twinking.

I actually had no problem with the cats (that rogue was a Vah Shir), but yeah, the whole fiction of Luclin always felt a little forced.

The reality is it was an attempt to solve a lot of the most commonly complained about issues with EQ. The solutions, however, did make EQ feel a lot less like EQ.

The issue with developers listening to the players who complain the loudest, the complaints never stop as part of life is defined by complaints. What happens is the cavity gets larger and deeper.

Part of what you lose is unique experiences, as the players themselves will complain and shape games to be the same.

The battlefield 1942 'Battle of Britain' map was a one sided deal, the German players could win every match unless they were complete retards. However, once in a awhile, a team on the British side would be competent enough to pull a win. It was a big woot because all of the odds were stacked against them.

In chasing BF to be everything for everyone it has essentially become COD with tanks.

[zarza]

i love luclin.

AA, nexus, new graphics etc.. many else contents.. luclin is one of best EQ expension forsure

i dont hate luclin . im just hate dumb person who talking about luclin that wish to update on p99 classic server

classic is classic, luclin is not classic

go p2002

[Anklesteiner]

Luclin to me was the perfect time for content in EQ. AA's let you continue the grind and improve your character once you reached max level. The Luclin zones are extremely fun. The Nexus made travel a lot less tedious and you spent more time actually playing the game than trying to get from point A to point B. The Bazaar centralized trading in a conveniently located place. Yeah the character models were bad but the expansion its self was top notch.

[Mblake1981]

The Nexus made travel a lot less tedious and you spent more time actually playing the game than trying to get from point A to point B.

And EQ is one of the few MMO(rpgs) that came out of the box with travel aiding spells and abilities, things to help navigate the game world. Instead of it being a backdrop while you click the myriad of hotkeys to setup the next melee attack.

[Amyas]

I love Luclin hate PoP #60 level eq best eq

[Zill]

Luclin best expansion easily. Ogre models make it all worth it

[beargryllz]

Luclin best expansion easily. Ogre models make it all worth it

Fat ogre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> swole ogre

[Evia]

Fat ogre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> swole ogre

This x1000.

[Zuranthium]

didn't wow do this and all that really came out of it was preferred min/max builds and everyone followed those builds?

If a game allows a wide range of class customization and everyone plays the same for each class, then there is a separate design problem going on. WoW allows every character to have all of their skills active simultaneously, doesn't it? I didn't play that game extensively (cause it sucks), but definitely remember the endless skill bars.

Guild Wars 1 has the best combat system and character customization of any MMO ever, and there were many builds for each class that saw high level play. If EQ had a similar system, you would definitely see at least 4 different kinds of Clerics being played on raids.

[Balvaron]

I actually like a lot of the Luclin content, what I didn't like is the game breaking mechanical changes. IE the Bazaar which made the economy impersonal, and POK books made the world so much smaller. I actually wish there was a version of EQ where the content from the new worlds is there, but these features are disabled.

[Raev]

I don't see why people are hating on Luclin so much.

The Nexus portals seem reasonable to me. I think on average it takes you 15 minutes to port somewhere? And they had so many continents at that point that you couldn't even just run if you wanted to. The PoK books are the ones that really trivialize travel. I just don't see the magic in 'WTS Sword of Power 250p' 'Will you take 225p' 'How about 230' 'OK, meet at T1' and the similarly inane conversations I have with dial a port.

Luclin also had the start of a decent raiding content with interesting mechanics and the beginnings of a good tradeskill system. Verant was learning on the fly there. I also like the AA system as it gives you some means of improving your characters. It's kind of silly how on P99 you spend your 5000 hours tracking and poopsocking and yet you have no use for all of your gear other than more tracking and poopsocking. AAs would really help P99 tbh as it would be much, much harder to have 3-4 good characters parked everywhere. And focus items finally made caster itemization not suck as well as providing a sorely needed boost to casters.

The problem with Luclin was that it was a) too grindy b) the graphics c) the lore was too bad. It was a really ambitious project that just wasn't quite done right. (all experiences based on TAKP)

[Danth]

The problem with Luclin was that it was a) too grindy b) the graphics c) the lore was too bad. It was a really ambitious project that just wasn't quite done right. (all experiences based on TAKP)

To be fair, these are all individually valid reasons to hate the thing. Together, it adds up to what you said it was, something that might've been a potentially decent concept doomed by unfinished workmanship, poor implementation, and some outright shoddy ideas. Stripped to its core, Luclin seems to be effectively Kunark 2.0, right down to gating the final zone beyond an annoying key questline.

Danth

[Zuranthium]

The Nexus portals seem reasonable to me.

If it had a requirement of level 30 and cost money to use, that would make sense. What doesn't make sense is the Wizards of Norrath freely allowing anyone to enter this very special magical place they've built. I don't think the Nexus itself is needed though (seeing as how Luclin is not something I want); would just prefer the NPC Wizard at each key spire to translocate the player directly to another key spire. If those Wizards appeared at the spires every 30 minutes and then left after 5 minutes, that would be okay.

[Kika Maslyaka]

If it had a requirement of level 30 and cost money to use, that would make sense. What doesn't make sense is the Wizards of Norrath freely allowing anyone to enter this very special magical place they've built. I don't think the Nexus itself is needed though (seeing as how Luclin is not something I want); would just prefer the NPC Wizard at each key spire to translocate the player directly to another key spire. If those Wizards appeared at the spires every 30 minutes and then left after 5 minutes, that would be okay.

In defense of Nexus, they did needed some FREE way of getting between Luclin and Norath. Otherwise why you not paying to use ship from Freeport to BB?
Also with lev 30 req, Vah Shir would be forced to stay on Luclin for 30 levels - imagine not being able to go from Freeport to BB till lev 30.
After all Luclin is just another continent.

[zodium]

Every part of Luclin was bad beyond any hope of saving, OP.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Every part of Luclin was bad beyond any hope of saving, OP.

Now that's not true. About 1/4 of the zones have very interesting design, and Ssra easily one of the best designed raid zones ever.
Luclin was mostly a failure as a whole, but there are nice individual elements here and there.

[kotton05]

Luclin isn’t that bad. Just a bunch of nostalgia tards in here.

[Mblake1981]

Luclin isn’t that bad. Just a bunch of nostalgia tards in here.

Confirmed I am nostalgia tarded. EQ luddite.

[Crawdad]

Keying was absolutely awful. Emp Ssra bottleneck was the epitome to stupidity in an MMO. The quality of gear in VT versus anything else in Luclin was brain-dead, not to mention an unitemized/poorly itemized Ssra Temple for weeks, which meant you still needed to fart around in NToV while VT was down. So you did Emp->NToV->VT ad nasueam. Awful to be the top and even worse to be stuck behind them.

Bazaar was boring but probably "healthy" in the long term, along with a tradeskill zone nextdoor (I forget the name). Shared bank slots and AAs were the best things to come out of Luclin.

[I Felt Nostalgic]

I don't understand the hate for Luclin... I love cats, I love the shared bank, and I love how AA's really added some flavor to all of the classes.

[America]

Shared bank slots ... were the best things to come out of Luclin.

:o

[kotton05]

The hatred comes from the fay gate bandwagon betas who somehow think eq should of stopped at velious

[Evia]

The hatred comes from the fay gate bandwagon betas who somehow think eq should of stopped at velious

I'm pretty sure the hatred comes from all of these very valid points that this thread is filled with.

[Mblake81]

In defense of Nexus, they did needed some FREE way of getting between Luclin and Norath. Otherwise why you not paying to use ship from Freeport to BB?
Also with lev 30 req, Vah Shir would be forced to stay on Luclin for 30 levels - imagine not being able to go from Freeport to BB till lev 30.
After all Luclin is just another continent.

It shouldnt' have been on the moon then. Having to change fundamentals like that in order to keep new player travel.

"Citizens of Norrath, the tremors felt were from the plane of earth! It seems some hearty adventures have ventured too far into The Hole, angered over the death of Master Yael a new landmass has appeared at Kerra Isle!"

Cat races are now available!

Now the Qeynos boat makes a stop there.

[Kika Maslyaka]

It shouldnt' have been on the moon then. Having to change fundamentals like that in order to keep new player travel.

"Citizens of Norrath, the tremors felt were from the plane of earth! It seems some hearty adventures have ventured too far into The Hole, angered over the death of Master Yael a new landmass has appeared at Kerra Isle!"

Cat races are now available!

Now the Qeynos boat makes a stop there.

That much I agree with. When they choose the MOON as next "continent" they had to make things that be would logical for "going to the moon". I guess at that point Brad and the team decided that - "We already have too many continents. new continents are boring, lets do something totally new!" The next time a significant new land mass would be added to the old world would be with GoD expansion.

So going back to that place and time, and NOT choosing the moon, completely changes how many things would evolved.
However I think that something similar to Nexus, would still appear - because world was growing very large by that point and Spire system would bring closer together remote parts of the world.
But at very least we would do away with the "alien" theme ;)

If I would do full list of most important things Luclin did wrong it would be:

1. Choosing the Moon as next environment over another continent, underworld or say alternative realm. Hence forcing "alien" theme on otherwise fantasy world.

2. Expansion was rushed out prematurely. It felt that only about 1/4 of the zones were carefully design with heart and mind and purpose, where most of the rest were thrown together in a hurry. (Mons Letalis, Maiden Eye, Umbral Plains, Dawnshroud Picks are complete waste of space, and The Grey, Mara Seru, Twilight Sea, Scarlet Desert are barely better). Few and poorly implemented quests fall in to this category as well. yes there were a handful or involved quests, but mostly it was barren.

3. AA system was not a good design. Instead of giving CUSTOMIZATION of a character, it became MANDATORY PROGRESSION. Future high end content difficulty was tuned with idea in mind that players max out (or nearly max out) all their class AAs, and by the time of GoD it became totally INSANE. Max geared tanks could not tank raid boss unless they also had 2,000+ AAs.
IMHO a better AA system should have been something closer to WoW Talents, where you can only chose limited number of AA to obtain, but not all. But also without creating WoW's separate spec structure.

4. The Bazaar. I am one of those people who did EC tunnel. I am also one of those people who started to hate EC tunnel because it took too much of my time time. So automating sales wasn't the bad thing in my opinion. Creating centralize HUB was. What I would have done is create separate bazaar in EACH major city. Or at least 1 per continent, and let PLAYERS decide which one would become the central hub.

So these are my 4 most important factors.

Nexus thing would have happened one way or another because original game didn't had a well thought out long distance transportation system. And I am completely against the idea that druid and wizard should be able to earn ton of cash by doing something other classes can't. (Yes my main was a Druid and I was RICH AS HELL where my friends who played SK, Necro and Enchanter were poor as hell).
I mean there can be teleporters, but group teleport should cost a reagent that would be decently expensive that realistically only guilds going to a raid would spent money on to transport people quickly.

[Zuranthium]

In defense of Nexus, they did needed some FREE way of getting between Luclin and Norath. Otherwise why you not paying to use ship from Freeport to BB?
Also with lev 30 req, Vah Shir would be forced to stay on Luclin for 30 levels - imagine not being able to go from Freeport to BB till lev 30.
After all Luclin is just another continent.

The ship really should have a small ticket fee (would also be fine with a single lifetime charge to always use it). Never understood why it didn't, there's even a sign for tickets at the dock. It should also be noted that traveling via boat and a special magical portal place are pretty different.

Luclin isn't just another continent, it's a whole other world. They definitely made it feel like just another random place with the way they implemented it though, which is part of why it felt so wrong. Vah Shir wouldn't be forced to stay there until level 30 without the Nexus, there's always Wizard and Druid ports (which also can be said of getting there), and I'm perfectly fine with making it more difficult for low level characters to travel. It's important to maintain the ecosystems of those starting areas, not just have everyone rushing off to a place like Paludal.

[Mblake81]

4. The Bazaar. I am one of those people who did EC tunnel. I am also one of those people who started to hate EC tunnel because it took too much of my time time. So automating sales wasn't the bad thing in my opinion. Creating centralize HUB was. What I would have done is create separate bazaar in EACH major city. Or at least 1 per continent, and let PLAYERS decide which one would become the central hub.

A zone over by Shady Swashbucker into "Smugglers Den" complete with a bandit banker and places to set up sales.

Note: Doing this removes players from the tunnel area from buffing newbs, just saying.

Nexus thing would have happened one way or another because original game didn't had a well thought out long distance transportation system. And I am completely against the idea that druid and wizard should be able to earn ton of cash by doing something other classes can't. (Yes my main was a Druid and I was RICH AS HELL where my friends who played SK, Necro and Enchanter were poor as hell).
I mean there can be teleporters, but group teleport should cost a reagent that would be decently expensive that realistically only guilds going to a raid would spent money on to transport people quickly.

More reason to have a wiz/dru alt. I can't agree with teleporters in any form.

[Kika Maslyaka]

The ship really should have a small ticket fee (would also be fine with a single lifetime charge to always use it). Never understood why it didn't, there's even a sign for tickets at the dock. It should also be noted that traveling via boat and a special magical portal place are pretty different.

Luclin isn't just another continent, it's a whole other world. They definitely made it feel like just another random place with the way they implemented it though, which is part of why it felt so wrong. Vah Shir wouldn't be forced to stay there until level 30 without the Nexus, there's always Wizard and Druid ports (which also can be said of getting there), and I'm perfectly fine with making it more difficult for low level characters to travel. It's important to maintain the ecosystems of those starting areas, not just have everyone rushing off to a place like Paludal.


Re ship prices: I agree to a point. I would make it scale with char level. I would make it free for players under lev 5, and then keep increasing it to like 25pp at lev 50. BUT Ship system would needed to be MORE evolved and hitting more locations.

Re Druids/Wiz - see my post above - I am actually completely against these guys making cash from casting a spell ;) Best solution to MOON problem would have been not being a moon ;)

Re: Paludal - if they didn't give that zone insane ZEM to sell the expansion, nothing would have happened. I believe that a race SHOULD mostly spend first 10-20 levels in their native area, unless you traveling across the world to play with a friend. Preventing travel by level forcefully is bad game design. If I want to be Human Druid and my friend is Dwarf - we literally do not meet until like lev 30. Which is bad.

[Kika Maslyaka]

More reason to have a wiz/dru alt. I can't agree with teleporters in any form.

By teleporters I meant classes that can teleport =) Its a huge personalized cash-making unfair advantage. Its shouldn't be in game at all ;)

[Erati]

P99 w AAs would be an EQ nerds paradise. Ya’ll be cray to think otherwise.

[kaluppo]

Nexus thing would have happened one way or another because original game didn't had a well thought out long distance transportation system. And I am completely against the idea that druid and wizard should be able to earn ton of cash by doing something other classes can't. (Yes my main was a Druid and I was RICH AS HELL where my friends who played SK, Necro and Enchanter were poor as hell).


I have to diasgree. Druids especially need teleport spells just to be a desirable class to play. Proof of this was how Sony tried to "fix" the Druid class with their 75% complete heal spell after they were completely broken because they made porting easy access to everyone. There are way too many clerics and shamans around for a Druid to be viable just because of superior healing. Wizards wouldn't be broken as much for end game raiding desirability but it would discourage a lot of people from wanting to level one to 55+.

And if making PP via class skills was to become a crime then where does it end? Clerics should not get a resurrection spell or epics because they can make lots of PP rezzing for donations? Chanters should not get Clarity because they can make lots of PP by selling crack for donations?

I think they did it right by giving a couple of classes port spells to compliment the boats as a means of travel between continents. Now if you want to say boat travel should be faster or boats should charge a small fee to be used then I could see an argument for that.

[Kohedron]

The elemental models were terrible and were always inferior to classic elementals. Anyone who says otherwise is incorrect.

[Zuranthium]

I believe that a race SHOULD mostly spend first 10-20 levels in their native area, unless you traveling across the world to play with a friend. Preventing travel by level forcefully is bad game design. If I want to be Human Druid and my friend is Dwarf - we literally do not meet until like lev 30. Which is bad.

Preventing ports* by level, particularly NPC ports, is not the same as preventing travel by level (although inherently there must be places low level people aren't able to get to). If someone who started in Qeynos wants to play with their friend who is starting Dwarf, then they are going to have to run and meet up - an adventure! This also creates a further layer of community interaction, because low level players are going to need help running through certain areas.

I'm also perfectly fine with the idea of a race that is disconnected from the others, like for example if Vah Shir had to stay on Luclin until level 30 (could be easily explained by their bodies not being able to adapt to Norrath environment until maturity). Everyone knows going in if they pick the race, that's just the gameplay experience they are going to get. If a game ever had a Merfolk race, that would probably be a good way to do it - must stay underwater until you become mature enough to transform your tail into legs. EQ already had something very close to this with Iksar anyway - they were supposed to be extremely difficult to play in the Old World zones, pretty much needing to stay in Kunark unless you'd have enough friends to constantly vendor/bank for you elsewhere.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I have to diasgree. Druids especially need teleport spells just to be a desirable class to play. Proof of this was how Sony tried to "fix" the Druid class with their 75% complete heal spell after they were completely broken because they made porting easy access to everyone. There are way too many clerics and shamans around for a Druid to be viable just because of superior healing. Wizards wouldn't be broken as much for end game raiding desirability but it would discourage a lot of people from wanting to level one to 55+.

And if making PP via class skills was to become a crime then where does it end? Clerics should not get a resurrection spell or epics because they can make lots of PP rezzing for donations? Chanters should not get Clarity because they can make lots of PP by selling crack for donations?

I think they did it right by giving a couple of classes port spells to compliment the boats as a means of travel between continents. Now if you want to say boat travel should be faster or boats should charge a small fee to be used then I could see an argument for that.

And that is INHERITED problem with class design and balance. Druid NEEDED ports so it can be useful in a group? Useless in combat but cash raking out of combat? That's just plain stupid. Druid were useless as healer because Brad made Cleric UNGODLY healers. Thankfully he saw his errors and that's why in EQ2 all 3 priests were balanced to be equally good healers but via doing different things.

And yes Cleric, Chanter, Druid casting spells for plat is poor class balance and bad game design. Yes classes should have buffs. But they should not be caste-able outside of group, and specially on low lev players because that's cheating. You NOT suppose to be running around with +400hp buff at lev 5.
I liked how buffs worked in EQ2 - as an aura. A caster has 5 buff slots, and you chose very careful which buffs you want going. Anyone who join the group - gets the buff benefit. No casting 20+ buffs on a lev 1 noob for PL, no selling them for plat.

Cleric epic is a horrendous game design. Item that doesn't go obsolete after 20 expansions is Terribad game design.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Preventing ports* by level, particularly NPC ports, is not the same as preventing travel by level (although inherently there must be places low level people aren't able to get to). If someone who started in Qeynos wants to play with their friend who is starting Dwarf, then they are going to have to run and meet up - an adventure! This also creates a further layer of community interaction, because low level players are going to need help running through certain areas.

I'm also perfectly fine with the idea of a race that is disconnected from the others, like for example if Vah Shir had to stay on Luclin until level 30 (could be easily explained by their bodies not being able to adapt to Norrath environment until maturity). Everyone knows going in if they pick the race, that's just the gameplay experience they are going to get. If a game ever had a Merfolk race, that would probably be a good way to do it - must stay underwater until you become mature enough to transform your tail into legs. EQ already had something very close to this with Iksar anyway - they were supposed to be extremely difficult to play in the Old World zones, pretty much needing to stay in Kunark unless you'd have enough friends to constantly vendor/bank for you elsewhere.

Ok I agree on Iksar example - note how it was very hard for them to go outside of Kunark, but it wasn't restricted artificially. Vah Shir NOT being able to leave Luclin at all due to hard level req would have been bad game design.
Your example with Merfolk is interesting one, but maybe too pushing. There was a game that tried something like that. I believe in Horizons you could play dragon, but you had to actually MATURE with time, rather than gaining levels, and it took forever, and game mostly failed. And that was even before WoW success.

Basically between going ALL LORE RPG and ALL EASY MODE gaming, I want to see a game that is something in between. Where RPG side is pushed to the max, but without becoming an artificial burden of gameplay.

[Raev]

I have to diasgree. Druids especially need teleport spells just to be a desirable class to play. Proof of this was how Sony tried to "fix" the Druid class with their 75% complete heal spell after they were completely broken because they made porting easy access to everyone.

I agree with you, but I think you are coming from the problem from the wrong viewpoint: taxi should not be the best ability of any class. TAKP actually has a very nice balance between the healers:

Clerics: best and most efficient heal, biggest HP buffs, weak debuffs, no mana regen
Shamans: worst and least efficient heals, worst HP buffs, best debuffs & mana regen
Druids: in between on all fronts


I could definitely get behind a fee for using the Wizard spires. Every 20-30 minutes a Wizard appears at the portal and for the next 5 minutes you can give him 20 platinum to be translocated to the spire of your choice.

Anyway, the problem with EQ was that by the time they fixed the imbalances in one expansion they had created new ones in the next one, and thus they never really figured it out.

Also, once Nilbog & co are done replicating classic EQ I think it might be interesting to try perfecting it. I think late velious balance is actually pretty good, but it could definitely use a few tweaks.

[Zuranthium]

Your example with Merfolk is interesting one, but maybe too pushing. There was a game that tried something like that. I believe in Horizons you could play dragon, but you had to actually MATURE with time, rather than gaining levels, and it took forever, and game mostly failed. And that was even before WoW success.

I don't think it's punishing that Merfolk would need to stay underwater until a certain level. That would just be part of playing the game, if you pick the race. If you don't like the idea of playing underwater and being separated from other races until you level up significantly, then you just don't pick that race. This could have been the case with Vah Shir too; it's not bad design because it's restricted to something the player chooses. Race selection can be more than just physical appearance in a game; to me that should be the main point of what you choose actually - getting a different kind of gameplay experience (not just different in starting stats, or attributes like regeneration).

Horizons was originally planned as a very ambitious game with tons of great ideas, and would have moved the MMORPG genre in a very beneficial direction. Unfortunately it got ruined by money-hungry people who just wanted to make a quick profit for their own benefit. It was actually going to have a Merfolk race, with restrictions like I was talking about, but that race and the underwater zones got scrapped altogether. I don't know how the Dragons eventually got implemented in the very sad release version, but that's definitely a tricky thing to do.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I don't think it's punishing that Merfolk would need to stay underwater until a certain level. That would just be part of playing the game, if you pick the race. If you don't like the idea of playing underwater and being separated from other races until you level up significantly, then you just don't pick that race. This could have been the case with Vah Shir too; it's not bad design because it's restricted to something the player chooses. Race selection can be more than just physical appearance in a game; to me that should be the main point of what you choose actually - getting a different kind of gameplay experience (not just different in starting stats, or attributes like regeneration).

Horizons was originally planned as a very ambitious game with tons of great ideas, and would have moved the MMORPG genre in a very beneficial direction. Unfortunately it got ruined by money-hungry people who just wanted to make a quick profit for their own benefit. It was actually going to have a Merfolk race, with restrictions like I was talking about, but that race and the underwater zones got scrapped altogether. I don't know how the Dragons eventually got implemented in the very sad release version, but that's definitely a tricky thing to do.

I see where you coming from, but this asymmetric race balance is very hard to achieve. Horizons also had planned Vampire race that could not ever go out during day light. With this perspective each race should have a significant perk, but if you have some races that normal and some with strong downside - they simply not going to be played by majority of players. I mean there are rogue-like game out-there that have this niche choices and some people play those and enjoy their RP, but in the big MMO market it won't work out.
EQ also tried some of this things but they mostly failed:
-Ogre Having Front Stun immunity is ridiculously OP for SKs and Shamans in end game.
-Iksar on other hands cannot wear plate armor in exchange of rather tiny AC bonus

When WoW first started Taurens had +3% hp over total max hp possible. This automatically made them best tank possible in the game. That was bad game design and they removed it.

[Zuranthium]

I see where you coming from, but this asymmetric race balance is very hard to achieve. Horizons also had planned Vampire race that could not ever go out during day light. With this perspective each race should have a significant perk, but if you have some races that normal and some with strong downside - they simply not going to be played by majority of players. I mean there are rogue-like game out-there that have this niche choices and some people play those and enjoy their RP, but in the big MMO market it won't work out.

When WoW first started Taurens had +3% hp over total max hp possible. This automatically made them best tank possible in the game. That was bad game design and they removed it.

I think those races like Vampire would be played plenty. People want a different experience. Even if certain races aren't popular that's perfectly fine, not everything needs to be popular.

Your example of Taurens in WoW shows how bad their overall design is. If 3% max HP is automatically making someone the best tank in a game, then there has not been enough consideration given to armor class or avoidance or other factors. You could easily slap some kind of downside on a race with a 3% max HP bonus - such as "vulnerable to fire" - and then they would become worse tanks in certain areas.

[Faxi]

I loved Luclin.

I loved most of the new player models. I played with mix of old and new.
AA's made the classes FAR more interesting and viable.
Raids and group content actually had MECHANICS and wasnt boring as fuck tank and spank snoozefests.
VT key was the guild-sized Epic quest that was difficult but awesome.
Gear itemization was finally not dumb as fuck.
Focus effects were great.
Beastlord class was great addition.
The Nexus spires eased the travel time waster just enough to make getting to groups less painful. And no, druids and wizards didnt suddenly go poor or bored. even in PoP, my druid was still making crazy plat doing ports.

The poopsockers and neckbeards will whine about the good ol' days but actually the game was never more popular or better.

[torriadore]

-My own preference of old models versus new models.
-The expansive world feeling really started to feel compressed when the spires etc took over.
-Ssra was great, VT was dull but still a decent time killer by some means, rest not so much.
-I also felt the graphics overall took a much uglier turn other than new enemy models. A lot of ugly and uninteresting outdoor zones in luclin.
-overall feeling of incompleteness.