Just a FYI re Knight starting stats since this comes up frequently.

[White_knight]

It's the same idiots that argue putting all points in to stm on Knights is the way foward.

Yah...that extra 80hp (aka less that 1 hit at 60 vrs general mobs) is going to help over the extra 200+ mana.

3880hp, 2300 mana knight vrs 3800hp, 2500 mana who you think got more wiggleroom?

Hint:
The one extra:
Increase Hitpoints v2 by 175 per tick x4 times (Paladin)
Decrease Hitpoints by 332 (L49) to 338 (L50) (Shadowknight)

Edit: Factor in that STR and STM are the easiest stats to get over or close to the 200 mark without buffs for knights too

[Troxx]

My 58 paladin could use a bit more mana than he could use a bit more hp.

[Troxx]

So yeah, for a knight's job I'd argue wis vs intelligence **could be a better stat investment than stamina.


**you have sufficient med time or mana regen to use the extra.

[Octopath]

So does this mean erudite is the master race for a sk?

[Ennewi]

Except wis/int are dependent on numerous factors and stamina is not. If you experience lag or go linkdead, all that mana means nothing. If you get blinded, bash stunned or push interrupted, same difference. If you're hauling ass to the zoneline as a paladin, the only spell you'll have time to stop and cast is divine aura which costs all of 10 mana. For a shadow knight, the obvious choice is to feign death which is 60 mana.

In terms of min/max, there are more returns from int/wis than sta, but those returns mean nothing if you're dead. Also, if you have C2 than your mana bar isn't going to be empty really ever. With multiple FT items on at all times, the argument starts falling apart as well.

Admittedly, there have been times when I wished I put more, if not all points into int/wis, but there have also been times when I've survived with less than 60hp to spare.

Threads like these are proof that another BotB needs to occur at some point, not that pvp is a good indicator of pve skill. But the knights who win probably will be ones who put all of their starting points into agility, charisma, or dexterity but have a crown of narandi, deepwater bp, flowers, etc.

[elwing]

Sta all the way, int is not maxxed but well past 200,other important stats are maxxed in raid but sta always lacks behind...

[White_knight]

Except wis/int are dependent on numerous factors and stamina is not. If you experience lag or go linkdead, all that mana means nothing. If you get blinded, bash stunned or push interrupted, same difference. If you're hauling ass to the zoneline as a paladin, the only spell you'll have time to stop and cast is divine aura which costs all of 10 mana. For a shadow knight, the obvious choice is to feign death which is 60 mana.

In terms of min/max, there are more returns from int/wis than sta, but those returns mean nothing if you're dead. Also, if you have C2 than your mana bar isn't going to be empty really ever. With multiple FT items on at all times, the argument starts falling apart as well.

Admittedly, there have been times when I wished I put more, if not all points into int/wis, but there have also been times when I've survived with less than 60hp to spare.

Threads like these are proof that another BotB needs to occur at some point, not that pvp is a good indicator of pve skill. But the knights who win probably will be ones who put all of their starting points into agility, charisma, or dexterity but have a crown of narandi, deepwater bp, flowers, etc.

The consensus on red99 is all int/wisdom for Knights.

When you talking about the sort of gear you want for FT then you're stamina and strength should be almost be near the 200 mark, or close too it. Unless you're running around with N crown and bronze Armor which is possible.

What you fail to mention in your post is how many times you have died when 1 heal, or 1 more life tap could have saved you, or you were forced to zone/FD because the addition Lifetap heal could have turned the fight in your favour. I would wager that the 80 extra hp ( which you will cap naturally with gear and lose the value of it) has worked out far less in your favour than if you had an extra lifetap or heal.

I knight generally either BURNS his mana to save a fight, or floats in to keep agro ( FoL/DC), having an extra 200+ mana give or take you haven't maxed INT/WIS is when it falls in favour for those burn times - also for SKs fearkiting, 80HP isn't worth squadliy doodle compared to the 200 potential mana.

Also if you have your INT/WIS near cap you can adjust your gear to suit your other stats.


A smart knight goes all int/wisdom ( give or take the 5 agi thing, but if you twinking that wont matter really)

[Ennewi]

The consensus on blue is that red doesn't have enough players for a consensus. I'm willing to believe it though, but then paladins are different in pvp where I imagine fights can go sideways quicker and player character "adds" can't just lock onto you the way a mob can. There are places to hide, creative ways in which to buy time, which is key to this argument.

Mana is what you potentially have at your disposal; health is what you actually have. Your mana bar allows for more options, which is attractive, but it can't be depleted as quickly as your health bar. If everything in camp is under control, save for the occasional hiccup, mana is better.

There is some truth to your argument, but again, it does not factor in the time required to cast, with mobs that know your precise loc. Heals require a fair amount of uninterrupted time. Lifetaps are even worse, taking longer to cast and having a decent chance of being resisted, partially if not outright.

I can remember having to duck a lifetap in order to death peace instead because the cast time meant taking more damage than the lifetap would take back, if it even landed. I can remember using the quested fast-cast lifetap only to have it resisted, followed by death. Heals are more reliable, but then paladins don't have access to fsi. That isn't to say lifetaps and self heals haven't bought time for a late torpor/cheal, but they required time which created more risk than using divine aura or feign death and letting a monk offtank momentarily.

Knights have some very useful spells, but nothing so amazing to where I would rather have a complete mana clicky versus a complete heal clicky. There just isn't the same "oh shit" moment that arises when a hybrid tells the group "oom" as when the cleric or enchanter says that. What happens when I'm oom as a paladin/sk? The necromancer coughs up some of their mana.

Mana is potential but it's wasted if you don't create enough distance or don't have enough time to use it. If you're blind, you aren't casting anything that isn't hotkeyed and even that will be inefficient. If root breaks/resists repeatedly, on a significant train, you're dead with mana to spare. If you're being summoned, your mana really isn't going to save you. If the enchanter is dying to adds, you can heal/root/stun all you want but they only have so much rune/health so it's more about your reaction time and their skill/resist rate. Best bet is to aggro their charm hasted pet and try to survive the onslaught (and good luck getting more than one heal off on yourself). A deeper mana pool isn't going to save the enchanter, loh however will. Again, an instant spell effect that can be clicked or "cast" while moving is what swings most fights. If the enchanter dies, you can rez them and duel for theft of thought and you'll still have enough mana to continue tanking and, if not, there's always dw bracer.

Feign death? Until death peace enters the spellbar, that's your one chance at survival; if and when it fails, you will be wishing you had more hitpoints because the incoming mobs will destroy you before you can recast it (though 60 extra hitpoints usually aren't enough). "So just back against a wall and lifetap them in the meantime." Assuming you'll have mana to feign after, that still assumes lifetap will land in time and that it won't be resisted. Might as well just keep an Ivandyr's Hoop in your bags in that case. Those lifetaps equate to how much int overall? And they're instantaneous. That will swing a fight far more than the last drop of mana in your pool.

If it is really all about mana, than no one should ever roll a half elf paladin because it isn't min/max. By the same argument, no one should ever roll a ranger anything...except when they want to prove people wrong / play in hardcore mode.

[Ennewi]

Also, iirc there's supposedly a limit in the works for mana because our pools aren't currently classic.

[kaev]

If it is really all about mana, than no one should ever roll a half elf paladin because it isn't min/max. By the same argument, no one should ever roll a ranger anything...except when they want to prove people wrong / play in hardcore mode.

...

Also, iirc there's supposedly a limit in the works for mana because our pools aren't currently classic.

On live rolled half elf paladin w 10 points each into wis & str, worked out fine (pure casual never raided.) Because it bugged me to be "below average" in a primary stat. Can't recall ever having a group wipe because my paladin went oom, and while death is (almost) always a case of insufficient hp groups don't wipe because of 60 hp on the tank. Here did same, worked out fine because paladin was pretty weak in Kunark era raiding here, mostly healed non-Iksar necros and ate death touches, joined in the "everybody heal Xxxx", occasionally tanked trash in sky when warriors were being lazy (made a cleric for Velious.)

Don't think that mana limit will affect hybrids, just maxxed casters, although I suppose there may be a hybrid or two who've pushed mana that high just to do it.

[Danth]

Also, iirc there's supposedly a limit in the works for mana because our pools aren't currently classic.

The mana pool cap in the works is a cap for everyone, although few to no hybrids would ever reach it. What you're thinking of is the classic-era hybrid mana pool (hybrids originally had zero mana until level 9, and effectively always had mana pool equivalent X levels below their caster counterparts) which was removed as part of the velious-era hybrid upgrades. P99 is presently at or near correct for velious hybrid mana pools, although the mythical "green" server would need the era-appropriate changes.

I don't see 20 points of any stat mattering all that much. Any discussion here is, at best, debating fractions. Arguments can be made for strength, stamina, intelligence/wisdom, or even some of the other stats, depending on the specific situation for the user.

Danth

[elwing]

25sta is not much, but 125hp means a lot when raiding... Putting points in dex or str is foolish as these will be capped, str maybe just with gear, dex definitely with buff... Int is harder... But less important than hp in the end...

[Ennewi]

On live rolled half elf paladin w 10 points each into wis & str, worked out fine (pure casual never raided.) Because it bugged me to be "below average" in a primary stat. Can't recall ever having a group wipe because my paladin went oom, and while death is (almost) always a case of insufficient hp groups don't wipe because of 60 hp on the tank. Here did same, worked out fine because paladin was pretty weak in Kunark era raiding here, mostly healed non-Iksar necros and ate death touches, joined in the "everybody heal Xxxx", occasionally tanked trash in sky when warriors were being lazy (made a cleric for Velious.)

Don't think that mana limit will affect hybrids, just maxxed casters, although I suppose there may be a hybrid or two who've pushed mana that high just to do it.

Ah, correct. Only those with 4k mana would notice the mana cap by the looks of it.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-284177.html

There are quite a few threads on this topic and it's interesting to see what side of the fence people fall on. Purecasters and priests probably laugh at us, whichever we choose, because the hp/mana being argued over isn't a lot.

[Jaleth]

I personally dumped nearly all my points into dex, on both my knights.

[Snaggles]

I dumped 5 points into Agil and 20 in Str with my Eru Pally. Arguably dumb but twinking on a budget helped me wear high AC armor without many other stats. Even now with budget gear my unbuffed STR is like 140 star and with the gear I carry I’m like 105/140 until encumbered.

IMHO, there are ideal and less than ideal paths go go but hps are always welcome; I’d trade the points at this point but am far from capped in most grind groups. In the lower levels being able to carry some extra fine steel to sell though sure made life easier. All the pally races are closer than the SK ones. If the little sk’s can justify their decisions (I believe they can) 20 points isn’t going to make or break the class.

Edit: realized this is red focused. Yea mana often wins duels and I can see how in PVP it would as well. In typical grind/solo work on blue I rarely run around with a full gas tank so long as mana doesn’t become a limiting factor it seems there is always enough to finish the job. I also don’t raid and see my mana bar strictly as a wave of healing meter, that too I could see changing things up for.

[White_knight]

I personally dumped nearly all my points into dex, on both my knights.

I've often thought of trying this too, have you found it helps?

[ScaringChildren]

CHA for me

[Jaleth]

I've often thought of trying this too, have you found it helps?

Personally, yes though I am sure the returns for me are a bit low atm due to an unbuffed value of 136 Dex. But I had talked to a Botb paladin who swore Dex was the best Stat to dump points into due to the benefit of procs over time.

Both knight classes benefit from this, and I believe there is at least one thread here in the tank section that states those benefits more eloquently than I can. The proc rate of stuns for paladins keeping agro, plus the DD undead procs could be beneficial. And when the Jeldorin comes out with the long awaited for Chardok 2.0 update, the self healing proc will come in very handy. SK's life tap procs, from spells.and weapon procs increase due to higher dex. Some others here can give the return rate based on dex and ratios, but I believe the procs rate are based per minute rather than how often you attack, so more procs would go off per swing on a slower weapon.

I will try to find the thread and post a link here. But personally, I have never regretted putting points into Dex, but I am also running a human, who is middle of the road anyway.

[Ennewi]

Personally, yes though I am sure the returns for me are a bit low atm due to an unbuffed value of 136 Dex. But I had talked to a Botb paladin who swore Dex was the best Stat to dump points into due to the benefit of procs over time.

Both knight classes benefit from this, and I believe there is at least one thread here in the tank section that states those benefits more eloquently than I can. The proc rate of stuns for paladins keeping agro, plus the DD undead procs could be beneficial. And when the Jeldorin comes out with the long awaited for Chardok 2.0 update, the self healing proc will come in very handy. SK's life tap procs, from spells.and weapon procs increase due to higher dex. Some others here can give the return rate based on dex and ratios, but I believe the procs rate are based per minute rather than how often you attack, so more procs would go off per swing on a slower weapon.

I will try to find the thread and post a link here. But personally, I have never regretted putting points into Dex, but I am also running a human, who is middle of the road anyway.

This is something I've wondered about, but haven't tested at great length. Ultimately, the main deterrence for rerolling all dexterity came from this thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174686&page=2), specifically the post by Haynar. Also, I've noticed procs occurring more frequently by turning auto-attack on/off between swings, but never bothered to confirm those suspicions.

[Jaleth]

Yeah, I saw that thread to and in fact was the one I was thinking of. But a paladin on this server gave a list of reasons it was the stat I should dump my points into. He took second in the botb tournament at the time, being undefeated in all duels vs SK's and pallies prior to the competition taking 2nd place in the end by choice (he wanted Knight Gadwin) rather than Crusader. He chose it on live as well as a paladin and he never regretted it.

I really wish he still played, a decent guy and well knowledged. But hey, how can we argue with Haynar? I still don't regret it though, would most likely do it again if I re-rolled a human knight in another server. I would like to see the returns on a full dex buff with dex heavy gear to see if it indeed as good as Gadwin said. The procs would be glorious (if dex worked as intended).

[Legidias]

I can't think of a more boring pvp than pally vs pally

[Crede]

I went all wisdom on my pally and regretted it later on. For knights mana Regen is all that matters.

Dex or bust IMO. More procs, more dps, more fun, win.

[Pint]

Fwiw I maxed my dwarf paladin's sta unbuffed without ever intending to and would absolutely trade those starter points for wis

[Troxx]

Half elf tunare here for a 2hs (easier than epic) that is like swinging a BP (45ac) ..

put stats into wisdom; no regrets

[Crede]

Half elf tunare here for a 2hs (easier than epic) that is like swinging a BP (45ac) ..

put stats into wisdom; no regrets

Wisdom is more of a raiding thing end game for a Pally where you become a DS/heal bot. In a group mana regen is all that matters. An extra 125 mana or whatever isn't doing much for a sustained dps group. Dex is going to give you better quality of life for leveling, with more procs/dps, better aggro, and less mana used to retain aggro.

[White_knight]

Half elf tunare here for a 2hs (easier than epic) that is like swinging a BP (45ac) ..

put stats into wisdom; no regrets

Cant wait to get my hands on that sword =)

[White_knight]

My level 54 Paladin has more base mana, 2000 atm, than hp with store bought gear and an epic Blbecause I have built him around wisdom. He current has 180 wisdom.

When I get back to grinding him my goal is to get prexus idol to push him to 200 wisdom base then I can slowly gear out accordingly with hp/ac/mana/melee stats while trying to keep base wisdom at 200. I am not a big time raider so will take awhile to get decent teir items.

My ntov geared red pally had about 2400 mana because I built him like a tank, and I made the same mistake that Pint mentions in his post above. My str and stm were capped over or close to it my wisdom was 157 without buffs

I am hoping in the long run my blue paladin will settle around 2.8-3k mana pool