Thoughts on end game raiding

[foxchris509]

There has been a lot of controversy and hate lately involving the idea of a TOV rotation between guilds on this server and I understand why. The competition between guilds is what really makes eq fun and exciting for the most part. However, there is a big difference between competition and domination/monopoly of content. I think that is why a lot of people are open to the idea of a rotation of some form.
One idea I thought of recently was what if there was a limit on the number of people that can be in a raiding guild? This would eliminate the "zerg" guilds and level the playing field for everyone making competition on this server fair and probably much more fun for everyone involved. Getting the mob would rest on the guild's skill level not how many people they can throw on one target at once.
There already exists a minimum requirement for a guild to form, why not a maximum? End game raiding is like a sport we don't see teams in football, baseball, basketball etc of various numbers they all have equal amounts of players on the field at once. If one team had double or triple the amount of players on the field would that be fair or even fun to watch? My guess would be no and I really think that applies to Everquest.
What do you guys think? Concerning what the limit would be and how it would be implemented is a whole other discussion I just want to hear some thoughts on the subject. These are my own ideas and do not reflect my guild in any way. Let's discuss!

[d3r14k]

If one team had double or triple the amount of players on the field would that be fair or even fun to watch?

I would totally watch a game with a full roster of 53 Chiefs on the field repeatedly sack Tom Brady for an hour.

Seriously though, neat idea. I wouldn't be opposed to trying it but it seems like a pretty narrow ruleset and would force guilds who aren't even necessarily competitive to cut people simply because they are large. Think Dial a Port and Dawn Believers, et cetera.

If you're going to say "let's only apply this rule to certain guilds who take targets" then I see the problem being a start up guild never having the opportunity to evolve into a raiding guild without slashing members.

Also, who decides what the magic maximum number is? I don't mean to approach this completely negatively, but I do see multiple issues with this idea.

[loramin]

What about alliances?

[TripleLegit]

I don’t think there would be a very feasible set limit on guild numbers. Mainly because you can have a 40 person guild but there is no way those 40 people could always be on and ready for a raid at the same time. Maybe just a limit on the number of raiders in a zone or maybe make the limit something like 100 just to make up for different RL situations keeping all of your players busy. Idk. I do think it would be fun to see like 9+ small raid forces competing for one target rather then 2-3 Huge guilds sending countless numbers at a target.

[TripleLegit]

What about alliances?

Another good question. If alliances are allowed nothing will change, people will just creat three guilds to disguise one big guild.

[Polixa]

The competition between guilds is what really makes eq fun and exciting for the most part.

Can I respectfully interject and disagree entirely?

I have had a love affair with EQ/P99 for 20 years and inter-guild competition is the least fun part of the game.

The problem you would like to fix, IMO, is that there are too many end game players trying to consume too little end game content.

We need more game.

The sensible answer to me, is instancing raid content, increasing spawn rates of long timer raid mobs, and increasing frequency of quest-related mob triggers (Chardok 2 goblin, WW Scout, Coldain rings).

[branamil]

Filed under not classic

[Keza]

Can I respectfully interject and disagree entirely?

I have had a love affair with EQ/P99 for 20 years and inter-guild competition is the least fun part of the game.

The problem you would like to fix, IMO, is that there are too many end game players trying to consume too little end game content.

We need more game.

The sensible answer to me, is instancing raid content, increasing spawn rates of long timer raid mobs, and increasing frequency of quest-related mob triggers (Chardok 2 goblin, WW Scout, Coldain rings).

I also disagree with guild competition being fun as well, but only because it's not quite competition. A competition implies a lot of things that EQ raids don't have. This is more like a bunch of greedy animals in a Walmart trampling each other on a black Friday sale. There's no real competition. We all know the state of it, there's no need to go into it, but not many people actually find this fun. They just do it for the pixels.

On the opposite end of things instancing content or increasing spawnrates to the point where things aren't rare eliminates the point of this content as well. This works in a themepark like WoW because no one playing those games regularly has even a single brain cell. They farm that gear which is then totally useless for anything other than doing the same raid again. In EQ you can use that gear for other things, so flooding the server with it has a hugely negative impact, moreso than me not having a raid drop. Of course item inflation isn't such an issue on blue because everyone is geared AF, and if there's ever a new server neckbeards will dominate things like snowfeather to the point where normal players will never ever have a chance of getting it.. but..

The problem ultimately isn't that we need more game, or even that there's too many players. It's just that EQ was great when no one knew anything and learning stuff off the internet was barely even a concept. Now everyone knows everything, and the people who find nothing else fun but playing EQ every waking moment of their life will do what they do. That's just the way it is. Much like the anti-green haters, we must all learn to accept the neckbeards, for they were once people too, and we may become like them in the future.

[Bardp1999]

There is no solution to the problem that is perfect. The best case scenario is to make AM concede every other spawn. We can act there is competition but thg he fact is AM gets more pixels than every other guild combined every single week. Stop pretending AG winning a CT means anything, competition is at an all time low.

[Sacer]

Filed under not classic

Pretty much, I mean it's obvious having a raid size cap is healthy for the raid scene, literaly every other MMO do it, but it's not classic EQ.

[foxchris509]

What about alliances?



Another good question. If alliances are allowed nothing will change, people will just creat three guilds to disguise one big guild.


Yeah I agree that is a hard one to answer, I don't think it would be possible with rules like this.

[foxchris509]

Filed under not classic


Pretty much, I mean it's obvious having a raid size cap is healthy for the raid scene, literaly every other MMO do it, but it's not classic EQ.

Haha I was waiting for this comment believe me.

[Foxplay]

#Rootthedragons

Bet you there would be a whole lot less raiders if they had to work for their pixels and not answer a batphone, log on for 10min and bank dkp

[Polixa]

Well there are Classic Mechanics and there is Classic Experience. The two are not necessarily compatible.

To give a classic experience to players (i.e. ability to consume content) GMs might need to modify the classic mechanics.

[zodium]

... people who aren't on board with rules they have to live under tend to spend their time devising ways to circumvent them rather than how to uphold them.

The sooner we start approaching raid rules design from "what do players want and how do we design a raid cycle with space for those preferences" rather than "these player preferences are counter to The Vision and must be constrained in ways that definitely won't have massive unforeseen consequences," the sooner we'll have working rules.

[Brocode]

You dont deserve to be at NFL just because you have a team, you have to earn it, rise and compete, either you like the way it is right now or not. Staff has changed in many different ways the raid scene, and the most fair so far been a mix(actual system), and def will still mutate soon.

AM didnt start at the top, as matter of fact struggled 2-3 years ago to rise to the top, would lose a lot of mobs to the competitors, but slowly it reached where it is now.

Blood Core and AG are potential next competitors to AM. Anyone has potential to compete, but no one want to put in the same effort. Thats why many guilds left server for a softcore raid enviroment (TLP servers)

Competition is def fun, not always, but when you win and wasnt easy, its super fun. Keep it up!

[zodium]

You dont deserve to be at NFL just because you have a team, you have to earn it, rise and compete, either you like the way it is right now or not. Staff has changed in many different ways the raid scene, and the most fair so far been a mix(actual system), and def will still mutate soon.

AM didnt start at the top, as matter of fact struggled 2-3 years ago to rise to the top, would lose a lot of mobs to the competitors, but slowly it reached where it is now.

Blood Core and AG are potential next competitors to AM. Anyone has potential to compete, but no one want to put in the same effort. Thats why many guilds left server for a softcore raid enviroment (TLP servers)

Competition is def fun, not always, but when you win and wasnt easy, its super fun. Keep it up!

As someone who has the privilege of actually competing, this idea that raiding is some open competition is silly on its face. Take two guilds you put on the same level, Core and BG. Do we have a level playing ground? Frankly, no. I don't mean to say BG aren't perfectly good players, just that there are a number of structural advantages working against them in a hypothetical competition against Core.

Right off the bat, Core has a vast array of characters developed over the course of a decade, many sporting so much end game Velious gear that we simply do not care for loot. We have ready access to a treasure trove of powerful clickies of which maybe 1-2 are generated per week on a serverwide basis, as well as items that flat out no longer drop. Wanna try to out-mobilize us without lockets? Good luck.

Item advantage not doing it for you? "Wipe it clean!" you say? Sorry pal. Available practice time correlates almost 1:1 with current performance, which in other words means you need to be on the winning team to get regular opportunities to improve in the first place. Core, for example, has an amount of accumulated experience with TOV dragons which at any realistic rate of practice time for BG could not be matched within the lifetime of P99. Wipe it clean all you like. You can't wipe what's in our minds. And the cycle would play out again, and again, and again, until we get real. :o

There are no one-and-done, "let's just do this" solutions. No perfect plug-and-play ruleset. First, we need to stop digging up, and recognize that different people play P99 with different movations. If we want the rules to work, we need people to work for the rules, not against them. To do that, we need to account for those motivations. Then, the raid rules design process itself, not simply the rules as such, need a fundamental redesign away from the current model and towards one that starts from those motivations. And finally, it will take time, trial and error to actually build a model that works.

[Jimjam]

You dont deserve to be at NFL just because you have a team, you have to earn it, rise and compete, either you like the way it is right now or not. Staff has changed in many different ways the raid scene, and the most fair so far been a mix(actual system), and def will still mutate soon.

AM didnt start at the top, as matter of fact struggled 2-3 years ago to rise to the top, would lose a lot of mobs to the competitors, but slowly it reached where it is now.

Blood Core and AG are potential next competitors to AM. Anyone has potential to compete, but no one want to put in the same effort. Thats why many guilds left server for a softcore raid enviroment (TLP servers)

Competition is def fun, not always, but when you win and wasnt easy, its super fun. Keep it up!

Mate, this is an online fantasy role play game. It's about pretending to be great heroes with your friends, saving the world from formidable monsters. It's not NFL. No one does this professionally. There is no money on the line. Not even a monthly fee.

[Brocode]

@Zodium well said, thats what i meant as you dont get to be at the top instantly, gotta prepare to compete, some alot more than others. I am all in to make the raid scene motivator better for all levels, just wish that would adapt for our current player base, hell i d love the challenges to be even custom adapted and not just be a trivial kill.

@Jimjam Was just an example, as pixels equals the money if you prefer, people compete to win something, in NFL is titles and money, here is pixels.

[Terrel]

I also disagree with guild competition being fun as well, but only because it's not quite competition. A competition implies a lot of things that EQ raids don't have. This is more like a bunch of greedy animals in a Walmart trampling each other on a black Friday sale. There's no real competition. We all know the state of it, there's no need to go into it, but not many people actually find this fun. They just do it for the pixels.



This. This. This.

This is the silent majority.

Competition? You can call it that all you want, and maybe a small part of it is actually about who had devised the cleverest way to mobilize a large force quickly. But that only applies to the current guilds who "compete".

In real life, what this looks like is that you have two groups of players. Group A, the "competitors", who are either unemployed, live alone, or don't have a good family situation. (Does that sound nasty? I don't mean it to be.)

Group B would love to kill dragons in NTOV, and, on rare occasions when Group A has been banned, have done so. But they work, they have families, and in the spirit of setting a good example for their children, they don't' get up and leave the dinner table because something sweet has just spawned.

On the rare occasions where things work out that a group B guild has the opportunity to mobilize for a nice spawn, and begins to gather a force, it's not at all unusual for a group A guild to jump them. (As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, group A is more practiced and better at mobilizing quickly.)

So let me repeat that. The group B guild, for which circumstances line up two or three times a year just right that they're able to even attempt an NTOV dragon, gets jumped by a group A guild that does NTOV dragons hundreds of times a year. You know what that is? Jackassery. Lack of courtesy. Disrespect. Greed.

Are we adults, or kids? Play nice, anyone?

Others have pointed out elsewhere that those who put in the most time should (and will) reap the most reward. (No welfare pixels!!) And you'll get no disagreement from me. But since the scenario above plays out that way so often, you know what the B guilds want? A shot. Once in a while! If the group A guilds were more courteous to the group B guilds on the rare occasions when they were able to mobilize for NTOV dragons, you'd have a lot fewer people calling for a rotation.

We don't need your welfare, group A. We just need your courtesy.

[Mblake1981]

Well there are Classic Mechanics and there is Classic Experience. The two are not necessarily compatible.

To give a classic experience to players (i.e. ability to consume content) GMs might need to modify the classic mechanics.

The sooner we start approaching raid rules design from "what do players want and how do we design a raid cycle with space for those preferences" rather than "these player preferences are counter to The Vision and must be constrained in ways that definitely won't have massive unforeseen consequences," the sooner we'll have working rules.

The Vision was fine for 1999, a time when people needed a good computer for gaming, paying a sub fee, multiple acc's were rare and player meta/mechanic/strategy knowledge and communication abilities was limited in comparison to today.

The only way to get a Classic experience is with a time machine, those don't exist. How many of us get random drops from our dial up connections these days?

Imo the issues we suffer today were self regulating in era. No guild raid # caps, rotations, instances, an army of alt bots, a full account or multiple of level 60 characters with NToV gear, an all in one wiki page.. and some players still feel the need to add things like map programs to aid them.

Any real changes, including ones GMs have implemented to "make it work 2012+" are not classic and not a true part of the museum. A player who never experienced EQ in original era comes in expecting "the classic experience" but that can't be replicated. 3D games have been around for over 20+ years. That feeling of going from an N64 to something like EQ on computer is long gone.

[walfreyydo]

Back in the day on the PVP servers, guilds had to fight one another for the spawn. Food for thought.

[Champion_Standing]

Guild caps would just mean the current population that's dominating raid content would split into 3-4 guilds and do the same. You could make rules against it I guess, I'm sure the average player would love the prospect of only being able to raid with a single character. Also, I'm sure the GMs would love sifting through dozens of guild rosters making sure nobody is double dipping. Sounds like a blast tbh, where do I sign?

[snyder43]

The competition between guilds is what really makes eq fun and exciting for the most part.

Competition in p99 raiding is one guild's pull team of 3-6 members vs another guild's pull team of 3-6 members trying to get FTE on a mob while the other 60-140 people in the competing guilds stare at the wall.

This is exciting if you're part of the pull team, but otherwise it's just sad.

[loramin]

Well there are Classic Mechanics and there is Classic Experience. The two are not necessarily compatible.

To give a classic experience to players (i.e. ability to consume content) GMs might need to modify the classic mechanics.

You are absolutely 100% correct about the distinction between classic mechanics and experience ... and 100% incorrect about which one the staff here cares about. With only a couple of "exceptions that prove the rule", P99 is all about classic mechanics over classic experience.

I'm not putting a value judgement on which one the staff should prefer, that's just how the people who run this server want things. Although I will say I empathize with their choice because truly e-creating the classic experience we all remember is probably impossible.

[Moerne]

I think to suggest that one top guild dominating raid content isn't classic is ignorant. It's not used now, but anyone remember the term "Uberguild"? It referred to that one or two guilds on a server that completely dominated the content. Always hated by most of the rest of the server. I bet most of you can probably even still name the ones from your servers, or the more famous ones that everyone knew. There was always huge pushback against these guilds. Sometimes that worked into a rotation, most often not. My server forums had a thread title "Trakanon is FFA" in the velious era that as long and bitterly fought over as anything we've ever had on RnF for P99. For me personally, this is a part of the game that I loved and missed with the era of instancing for raids. Honestly, if you just want to be able to raid on your own schedule, why even play P99? That's what the instanced raids are for.

[AegnorP99]

I don't raid these days, but it's just the quantity of content vs. quantity of raiders that forces P99-levels of pixel insanity. A rotation spreads loot around among guilds better, but doesn't really address the actual problem. I don't think the raid scene can be fixed without either instancing or increasing spawn frequency. I love that there are no instances on P99, so I don't personally like that solution. However, I could totally get behind reduced respawn times. Could drop 7-day spawns to 24 hours and 3-day spawns to 12 hours or something. People could still have their "competition", but major targets would be available at pretty much all times.

[Siberious]

Put every raid mob in window 1 hour after it dies, can leave # of days as is for when a guaranteed spawn would be, this removes 16h window socking nonsense that plagues the server. Unlink Vulak to facilitate this or don't, not a big deal. Exceptions could be made for Naggy/Ragefire & VS/VSR. Let people sock spawns, who cares anyways mobs are always in window, can only do it so long and let's people idk kill in zones without being penalized. Only have to deal with train petitions this way, as any means of getting FTE otherwise is fine and other mobs can spawn at any moment.

There you go problem solved, you're welcome. Have fun socking mobs 24 hours a day if you want to be insane, this otherwise reduces GM work and opens up targets to a broader audience and adds more without instancing anything or removing respawn windows entirely. Maybe people will just kill a few mobs here and there for fun instead of socking everything. (yeah I know, what a naive statement, of course socking mobs 24/7 is what real classic EQ players do! I must be a peasant).

[Rygar]

What if each guild can declare a window for the week? Window limited to 6hrs. If a mob is engaged is in your window you can kill it. You can break your window up however you choose (so have multiple smaller windows)

Maybe there is a standing 3hr FFA window.

This would limit socking hopefully, encourage some strategy around declaring a time, and still have a competitive window for everyone.

Guild leaders post window to private forum, GM reveals windows via public sticky post update.

Kind of dumb, but maybe a solution that can please everyone.

[Polixa]

You are absolutely 100% correct about the distinction between classic mechanics and experience ... and 100% incorrect about which one the staff here cares about. With only a couple of "exceptions that prove the rule", P99 is all about classic mechanics over classic experience.

I'm not putting a value judgement on which one the staff should prefer, that's just how the people who run this server want things. Although I will say I empathize with their choice because truly e-creating the classic experience we all remember is probably impossible.

I'm not saying the staff "should" do a U-turn on their design philosophy. It's their sandbox and I'm grateful to be allowed in.

Yes, I am putting a value judgement on which one the staff should prefer. But I understand my value judgement is not theirs, c'est la vie.

In other words, I have an opinion on what would make the server more fun to play on (like we all have, even when we disagree) and like everyone else, I appreciate that the P99 "Vision" does not have my fun as it's primary goal (and I don't mean that in the snarky way it sounds, just stating a fact of life).

[hobart]

Thoughts on end game raiding.

B L O O D G U A R D
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Two things that don't belong in the same post.

[Sadiki]

Thoughts on end game raiding

It's bad because most of the people motivated to do it are terrible individuals who are willing to drag hundreds of other people into the mud and argue every day of their lives; not to see content, but just to get the pixels at the end of the zoneline pull.

Avoid it if you're sane, end of story.

[gutterbrain]

Trying to discourage socking is dangerous. Why would you want to force the most dangerous inmates to mingle with the general population?

[Kesselring]

I also disagree with guild competition being fun as well, but only because it's not quite competition. A competition implies a lot of things that EQ raids don't have. This is more like a bunch of greedy animals in a Walmart trampling each other on a black Friday sale. There's no real competition. We all know the state of it, there's no need to go into it, but not many people actually find this fun. They just do it for the pixels.

On the opposite end of things instancing content or increasing spawnrates to the point where things aren't rare eliminates the point of this content as well. This works in a themepark like WoW because no one playing those games regularly has even a single brain cell. They farm that gear which is then totally useless for anything other than doing the same raid again. In EQ you can use that gear for other things, so flooding the server with it has a hugely negative impact, moreso than me not having a raid drop. Of course item inflation isn't such an issue on blue because everyone is geared AF, and if there's ever a new server neckbeards will dominate things like snowfeather to the point where normal players will never ever have a chance of getting it.. but..

The problem ultimately isn't that we need more game, or even that there's too many players. It's just that EQ was great when no one knew anything and learning stuff off the internet was barely even a concept. Now everyone knows everything, and the people who find nothing else fun but playing EQ every waking moment of their life will do what they do. That's just the way it is. Much like the anti-green haters, we must all learn to accept the neckbeards, for they were once people too, and we may become like them in the future.

It's already like 4 years into velious, the problem will always exist because guess what, people have alts and want the best gear for them as well. I think making the variance a little smaller would help the smaller guilds more than the big guilds, when windows get spread out Aftermath usually dominates. If you repopped the server and everything dies within 3 hours, you then have 25+ targets ALL in the same variance window roughly for 7 day spawns. If the variance is only 2 hours long there is no way in hell massive guilds can zip through each target because they will be popping up crazy fast. Guilds like Aftermath and AG will have to pick and choose the targets they want to stay at in fear of it popping soon while the more casual guilds will probably find more raid targets up when they check.

[foxchris509]

#Rootthedragons

Bet you there would be a whole lot less raiders if they had to work for their pixels and not answer a batphone, log on for 10min and bank dkp


Put every raid mob in window 1 hour after it dies, can leave # of days as is for when a guaranteed spawn would be, this removes 16h window socking nonsense that plagues the server. Unlink Vulak to facilitate this or don't, not a big deal. Exceptions could be made for Naggy/Ragefire & VS/VSR. Let people sock spawns, who cares anyways mobs are always in window, can only do it so long and let's people idk kill in zones without being penalized. Only have to deal with train petitions this way, as any means of getting FTE otherwise is fine and other mobs can spawn at any moment.

There you go problem solved, you're welcome. Have fun socking mobs 24 hours a day if you want to be insane, this otherwise reduces GM work and opens up targets to a broader audience and adds more without instancing anything or removing respawn windows entirely. Maybe people will just kill a few mobs here and there for fun instead of socking everything. (yeah I know, what a naive statement, of course socking mobs 24/7 is what real classic EQ players do! I must be a peasant).


What if each guild can declare a window for the week? Window limited to 6hrs. If a mob is engaged is in your window you can kill it. You can break your window up however you choose (so have multiple smaller windows)

Maybe there is a standing 3hr FFA window.

This would limit socking hopefully, encourage some strategy around declaring a time, and still have a competitive window for everyone.

Guild leaders post window to private forum, GM reveals windows via public sticky post update.

Kind of dumb, but maybe a solution that can please everyone.

These are all great ideas!

Competition in p99 raiding is one guild's pull team of 3-6 members vs another guild's pull team of 3-6 members trying to get FTE on a mob while the other 60-140 people in the competing guilds stare at the wall.

This is exciting if you're part of the pull team, but otherwise it's just sad.

I feel you but even if your guild gets the FTE and engages the target wipes are still possible and happen a lot. This opens up the opportunity for the next guild to try. There are a lot of other important factors involved like the cleric ch chain, having enough dps, tank/ramp tank not holding agro etc like could result in the guild not getting their target. Everyone has to play there part not just the pull team although I agree they are very important. This also leads back to my original comment about zerg guilds.

[branamil]

I find it funny that BG cries that AM brought more to Trak and BG lost. Well, Core beats AM all the time with like, 15, people. So maybe you could just play better?

[Mblake1981]

I think to suggest that one top guild dominating raid content isn't classic is ignorant. It's not used now, but anyone remember the term "Uberguild"? It referred to that one or two guilds on a server that completely dominated the content. Always hated by most of the rest of the server. I bet most of you can probably even still name the ones from your servers, or the more famous ones that everyone knew. There was always huge pushback against these guilds. Sometimes that worked into a rotation, most often not. My server forums had a thread title "Trakanon is FFA" in the velious era that as long and bitterly fought over as anything we've ever had on RnF for P99. For me personally, this is a part of the game that I loved and missed with the era of instancing for raids. Honestly, if you just want to be able to raid on your own schedule, why even play P99? That's what the instanced raids are for.

yes, I remember and agree.

I suppose if the difference cant be readily seen then it can't be helped. Less exclusionary and more accepting. The knowledge is already out there and easily accessed. Just join and get the good stuff you deserve.

I'm not sure what is Uber about it.

[Rygar]

What if each guild can declare a window for the week? Window limited to 6hrs. If a mob is engaged is in your window you can kill it. You can break your window up however you choose (so have multiple smaller windows)

Maybe there is a standing 3hr FFA window.

This would limit socking hopefully, encourage some strategy around declaring a time, and still have a competitive window for everyone.

Guild leaders post window to private forum, GM reveals windows via public sticky post update.

Kind of dumb, but maybe a solution that can please everyone.

By way, I meant every day of the week you have a kill window, and every day of the week there is a FFA window. Re-reading made it sound like you only had 9 hrs / week to kill dragons (i.e. neckbeard suicide) but meant you have 63 hrs / week to kill dragons (neckbeard part-time raider).

[Mblake1981]

I suppose if there was a small pack of a few players on P99 that were doing content no one else could, for a variety of reason, and were very picky about who they let in then I would most likely consider them Uber/L33t.

I would see them run by, hear rumors of eye opening things they have done, inspect a member and see loot I have never heard of or knew existed. I would think "Damn, these are some l33t uber fucks right here".

Me: "Hi, you guys are awesome. Can I join?"

Uber: "Will a member vouch for you and do you meet our requirement?"

Me: "No."

Uber: "Then get lost you fucking scrub."

Me: "I hate these guys, because I am not these guys"

[Razdeline]

I think the raid scene has further homogonized into a machine of bots, clickies, bat phones, gina and more to degrade the "classic" experience. It actually used to be better here- an opinion from someone that has raided on and off here since 2011.

Adding changes that shore up the classic experience may be the best route to resolve some of the issues, as someone here mentioned already, while not crushing the "competition" aspect. Some of the problems I think most can agree on:

-Pulling raid mobs to the zone line to trivialize the raid encounter
-Training an entire zone to trivialize the raid encounter
-Having Bots for ALL roles parked at all meaningful spawn locations 24/7 ready to be activated by any random person
-Complete reliance on certain item clickies to trivialize the raid encounter (da idols)

You can't blame people that follow the path of least resistance to get their reward. This is human nature and collectively is pretty evident over the past 9 years here. Probably the biggest culprit is being stuck in the box for 9 years. The immediate solution would be to add new servers.

If there are no new servers coming, tackling the non-emergent player behaviors above would be a start. The reliance on the community to "shape up" and change their ways will likely never happen outside of GM intervention or some hard coded solution. Expecting this will always leave the GM's in a cycle of resolving petty CSR issues while players continue to exploit CSR to maybe get a rule lawyered in their favor. Here are some high level solutions:

-No more fighting raid encounters at zonelines to trivialize raid encounters
-No more training an entire zone to trivialize raid encounters. Force people to clear stuff someway, somehow
-No more unlimited access to all classes or provide some sort of throttle to this behavior. Maybe x amount of accounts accessible per IP.
-Nerf item recharging, completely remove the mechanic as it's non-immersive and doesn't make sense. People never exploited it in classic to the extent they do here

Fixing the above won't resolve everything, but it'll leave the raid experience in a better place. As it stands- You log in for 10 minutes after a bat phone, do your RNG against the "competition" via clickies, training, engaging with your bot army, and then hopefully enjoy your deposited raid mob at the zoneline.

[Rygar]

I think the raid scene has further homogonized into a machine of bots, clickies, bat phones, gina and more to degrade the "classic" experience. It actually used to be better here- an opinion from someone that has raided on and off here since 2011.

Adding changes that shore up the classic experience may be the best route to resolve some of the issues, as someone here mentioned already, while not crushing the "competition" aspect. Some of the problems I think most can agree on:

-Pulling raid mobs to the zone line to trivialize the raid encounter
-Training an entire zone to trivialize the raid encounter
-Having Bots for ALL roles parked at all meaningful spawn locations 24/7 ready to be activated by any random person
-Complete reliance on certain item clickies to trivialize the raid encounter (da idols)

You can't blame people that follow the path of least resistance to get their reward. This is human nature and collectively is pretty evident over the past 9 years here. Probably the biggest culprit is being stuck in the box for 9 years. The immediate solution would be to add new servers.

If there are no new servers coming, tackling the non-emergent player behaviors above would be a start. The reliance on the community to "shape up" and change their ways will likely never happen outside of GM intervention or some hard coded solution. Expecting this will always leave the GM's in a cycle of resolving petty CSR issues while players continue to exploit CSR to maybe get a rule lawyered in their favor. Here are some high level solutions:

-No more fighting raid encounters at zonelines to trivialize raid encounters
-No more training an entire zone to trivialize raid encounters. Force people to clear stuff someway, somehow
-No more unlimited access to all classes or provide some sort of throttle to this behavior. Maybe x amount of accounts accessible per IP.
-Nerf item recharging, completely remove the mechanic as it's non-immersive and doesn't make sense. People never exploited it in classic to the extent they do here

Fixing the above won't resolve everything, but it'll leave the raid experience in a better place. As it stands- You log in for 10 minutes after a bat phone, do your RNG against the "competition" via clickies, training, engaging with your bot army, and then hopefully enjoy your deposited raid mob at the zoneline.

https://i.imgur.com/FvonPSp.gif

Please put in a guide application...

[branamil]

Sorry, but hoping the raiding scene gets better by tinkering with the server code is not going to happen. The development staff is already overburdened and working for FREE on an ancient code base. The desire to mess with raid mobs and items are approaching 0. Not to mention, meddling with this mechanics ALWAYS has unintended consequences. You're expecting WoW level of support and yet you pay $0 a month. Read the patch notes. It's like 2-3 guys, not an army.

[Mblake81]

I think the raid scene has further homogonized into a machine of bots, clickies, bat phones, gina and more to degrade the "classic" experience. It actually used to be better here- an opinion from someone that has raided on and off here since 2011.

Adding changes that shore up the classic experience may be the best route to resolve some of the issues, as someone here mentioned already, while not crushing the "competition" aspect. Some of the problems I think most can agree on:

-Pulling raid mobs to the zone line to trivialize the raid encounter
-Training an entire zone to trivialize the raid encounter
-Having Bots for ALL roles parked at all meaningful spawn locations 24/7 ready to be activated by any random person
-Complete reliance on certain item clickies to trivialize the raid encounter (da idols)

You can't blame people that follow the path of least resistance to get their reward. This is human nature and collectively is pretty evident over the past 9 years here. Probably the biggest culprit is being stuck in the box for 9 years. The immediate solution would be to add new servers.

If there are no new servers coming, tackling the non-emergent player behaviors above would be a start. The reliance on the community to "shape up" and change their ways will likely never happen outside of GM intervention or some hard coded solution. Expecting this will always leave the GM's in a cycle of resolving petty CSR issues while players continue to exploit CSR to maybe get a rule lawyered in their favor. Here are some high level solutions:

-No more fighting raid encounters at zonelines to trivialize raid encounters
-No more training an entire zone to trivialize raid encounters. Force people to clear stuff someway, somehow
-No more unlimited access to all classes or provide some sort of throttle to this behavior. Maybe x amount of accounts accessible per IP.
-Nerf item recharging, completely remove the mechanic as it's non-immersive and doesn't make sense. People never exploited it in classic to the extent they do here

Fixing the above won't resolve everything, but it'll leave the raid experience in a better place. As it stands- You log in for 10 minutes after a bat phone, do your RNG against the "competition" via clickies, training, engaging with your bot army, and then hopefully enjoy your deposited raid mob at the zoneline.

/\

Sorry, but hoping the raiding scene gets better by tinkering with the server code is not going to happen. The development staff is already overburdened and working for FREE on an ancient code base. The desire to mess with raid mobs and items are approaching 0. Not to mention, meddling with this mechanics ALWAYS has unintended consequences. You're expecting WoW level of support and yet you pay $0 a month. Read the patch notes. It's like 2-3 guys, not an army.

True that. Uninstalled EQ from my comp and will forumquest for a bit. I got my nostalgia fix and accomplished more than I ever did in era.

https://i.imgur.com/9mHPAAi.jpg?1

[Kika Maslyaka]

Sorry, but hoping the raiding scene gets better by tinkering with the server code is not going to happen. The development staff is already overburdened and working for FREE on an ancient code base. The desire to mess with raid mobs and items are approaching 0. Not to mention, meddling with this mechanics ALWAYS has unintended consequences. You're expecting WoW level of support and yet you pay $0 a month. Read the patch notes. It's like 2-3 guys, not an army.

The suggested fixes literally takes 30 min to implement: putting leash distance on a mobs, disabling recharges etc.

[branamil]

The suggested fixes literally takes 30 min to implement: putting leash distance on a mobs, disabling recharges etc.

Interesting. Could you point out which line you would change?

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server

[baakss]

Interesting. Could you point out which line you would change?

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server

Lol @ 30 minutes to implement.

[MamaKan]

Recharges play an intrical part in regulating p99 economy. I believe it would be a huge mistake to remove this mechanic.

[Sonderbeast]

end game mechanics seem fine to me

[Mblake81]

end game mechanics seem fine to me

coo

[Ravager]

Recharges play an intrical part in regulating p99 economy. I believe it would be a huge mistake to remove this mechanic.
The economy means shit. It's a game, play it. Remove recharges and stop trivializing already trivial content.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Interesting. Could you point out which line you would change?

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server

Leash distance is set in DB - point > click > ##

[baakss]

Leash distance is set in DB - point > click > ##

point > click > ##? I'm glad we don't work together.

[aaezil]

"Thoughts on end game raiding"

It sucks here and you will waste lots of 16 hours at a time of your life on essentially nothing...

I would suggest a more healthy hobby

[Kika Maslyaka]

point > click > ##? I'm glad we don't work together.

I'm glad we don't

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/wiki/NPC-Special-Attacks#Leashed

[baakss]

I'm glad we don't

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/wiki/NPC-Special-Attacks#Leashed

That’s not even remotely the point.

You don’t point, click, and change values in a DB. Regardless of whether your IDE allows for it, you don’t do it. You write a script so you can promote the same change you intend through all environments, and so your colleagues know what you did without jumping through hoops.

No change takes 30 minutes in IT. There’s testing, review, deployment, etc., and this all assumes you have good requirements. Even in this case: what mobs leash? Guards too? How far? You have a list with their PK’s for the script?

You’re suffering from “shit’s easy” syndrome if you think anything gets done that fast properly.

[Kika Maslyaka]

That’s not even remotely the point.

You don’t point, click, and change values in a DB. Regardless of whether your IDE allows for it, you don’t do it. You write a script so you can promote the same change you intend through all environments, and so your colleagues know what you did without jumping through hoops.

No change takes 30 minutes in IT. There’s testing, review, deployment, etc., and this all assumes you have good requirements. Even in this case: what mobs leash? Guards too? How far? You have a list with their PK’s for the script?

You’re suffering from “shit’s easy” syndrome if you think anything gets done that fast properly.


Dude, no wonder this server took 5 years to release velious if they work like you do.
There is literally a handful of raid zones in the game that need intimidate attention, and like 2 dozen raid mods. You obviously don't release things untested, but problem such as - pulling raid bosses to zone line in zone A is solved in 3 min.

[ZiggyTheMuss]

Dude, no wonder this server took 5 years to release velious if they work like you do.
There is literally a handful of raid zones in the game that need intimidate attention, and like 2 dozen raid mods. You obviously don't release things untested, but problem such as - pulling raid bosses to zone line in zone A is solved in 3 min.

STFU nerd! That other nerd seems to know what he is talking about.

[baakss]

Dude, no wonder this server took 5 years to release velious if they work like you do.
There is literally a handful of raid zones in the game that need intimidate attention, and like 2 dozen raid mods. You obviously don't release things untested, but problem such as - pulling raid bosses to zone line in zone A is solved in 3 min.

It's not just testing.

There are even more considerations you're ignoring. For instance, they intend to release another server at some point. You want them to just flip values in a tool of choice instead of writing a script? Hopefully this one gets remembered.

When a change is promoted, in source control it likely needs to be flagged:


This is a bug that should never have been on P99 and could go in with the release of a new server.
This is P99 Custom Content (the change you're suggesting)
This is being released as part of a patch Verant released in the original timeline


I have no idea how they're doing it, but I would take this sort of stuff into consideration, and this is off the top of my head. They've had time to give this more thought, and there is likely more rigor around it than for which I'm giving credit.

It's not a 30 minute, or as you now say 3 minute change. There is no such thing. What you're giving is just a bad estimate.

I don't know whether it would take 2 hours, 4 hours, 8 hours, a weekend, what. I don't know their level of rigor. But I would hope it's more than what you're suggesting.

[branamil]

Dude, no wonder this server took 5 years to release velious if they work like you do.
There is literally a handful of raid zones in the game that need intimidate attention, and like 2 dozen raid mods. You obviously don't release things untested, but problem such as - pulling raid bosses to zone line in zone A is solved in 3 min.

You sure sound like a genius. You should apply to code for the project. I'm sure we'll see Luclin release in a few days with your skill.

[Castigate]

Why are people even entering the idea of putting Evade (leash distance) in P99? Go play one of the million vanilla WoW servers if you want that shit. Even rooting the dragons would be more classic.

Better solution would be actually trying to get involved rather than acting like you've been conditioned to not even try unless opportunity is handed to you.
At least in BDAs day the weaker guilds put in some effort to contest while advocating rotations, and lo and behold it bore fruit with the class system. None of y'all doing it now even show up.
At work would you want the laziest person making the decisions?

[Kika Maslyaka]

It's not just testing.

There are even more considerations you're ignoring. For instance, they intend to release another server at some point. You want them to just flip values in a tool of choice instead of writing a script? Hopefully this one gets remembered.

When a change is promoted, in source control it likely needs to be flagged:


This is a bug that should never have been on P99 and could go in with the release of a new server.
This is P99 Custom Content (the change you're suggesting)
This is being released as part of a patch Verant released in the original timeline


I have no idea how they're doing it, but I would take this sort of stuff into consideration, and this is off the top of my head. They've had time to give this more thought, and there is likely more rigor around it than for which I'm giving credit.

It's not a 30 minute, or as you now say 3 minute change. There is no such thing. What you're giving is just a bad estimate.

I don't know whether it would take 2 hours, 4 hours, 8 hours, a weekend, what. I don't know their level of rigor. But I would hope it's more than what you're suggesting.

The reason they (the devs) have it so complicated is because they wanted it so complicated, when trying to keep "classic" something that hasn't been classic for a very long time.
If devs would concentrate on doing what is reasonable instead of this time frozen "classic" attitude, we wound't had all these problems and this ridiculously over-complicated solutions.

[Kika Maslyaka]

You sure sound like a genius. You should apply to code for the project. I'm sure we'll see Luclin release in a few days with your skill.

a) easily
b) I have better things to do with my time
c) Luclin isn't "classic"

[Hotel]

Why are people even entering the idea of putting Evade (leash distance) in P99? Go play one of the million vanilla WoW servers if you want that shit. Even rooting the dragons would be more classic.

Better solution would be actually trying to get involved rather than acting like you've been conditioned to not even try unless opportunity is handed to you.
At least in BDAs day the weaker guilds put in some effort to contest while advocating rotations, and lo and behold it bore fruit with the class system. None of y'all doing it now even show up.
At work would you want the laziest person making the decisions?

You're missing the point. You are a loser for caring about the game and putting time into to acquire the best loot.

Because the people who want rotations are not losers, they have much better things to be doing than staring at walls, they should also get loot because they are just cooler than you.

You are a toxic person for caring more about the game and you shouldn't be rewarded for the time you put in, loser.

[branamil]

a) easily
b) I have better things to do with my time
c) Luclin isn't "classic"

I dont understand. you said it only takes 30 minutes. You don't have half an hour to solve all of our problems?

[Kika Maslyaka]

I dont understand. you said it only takes 30 minutes. You don't have half an hour to solve all of our problems?

30 min to implement changes requested by the poster I referred to.
Few days is to release Luclin.
There is also an issue of persuading Rogean/Nilbog to appoint me head dev with 100% authority over the project. This is one is on you.

[baakss]

The reason they (the devs) have it so complicated is because they wanted it so complicated, when trying to keep "classic" something that hasn't been classic for a very long time.
If devs would concentrate on doing what is reasonable instead of this time frozen "classic" attitude, we wound't had all these problems and this ridiculously over-complicated solutions.

What I’m describing is not overcomplicated. These are normal concerns in software engineering.

If you’re having trouble understanding the importance of a reasonably normal SDLC, you should not be making estimates.

[Kika Maslyaka]

What I’m describing is not overcomplicated. These are normal concerns in software engineering.

If you’re having trouble understanding the importance of a reasonably normal SDLC, you should not be making estimates.

Except you not creating a server code from scratch - you making MINOR DB level alterations. The server isn't going to crash if you set a mod to a "leash" - a code which was created and tested years ago. The only unknown here is how it will affect raiding and how players will deal with it. And the only way to test those is to release to public and observe the result, because P99 doesn't have 2,000 men internal testig team.

[baakss]

Except you not creating a server code from scratch - you making MINOR DB level alterations. The server isn't going to crash if you set a mod to a "leash" - a code which was created and tested years ago. The only unknown here is how it will affect raiding and how players will deal with it. And the only way to test those is to release to public and observe the result, because P99 doesn't have 2,000 men internal testig team.

It's not an issue of the "server crashing".

There are standards you follow and you follow them for a reason. Every time. You don't develop bad habits.

I've given you several examples of reasons why this would be applicable even in this case. You're ignoring them because you don't want your initial post to be wrong. It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

And again, I don't profess to know the level of rigor that goes into changes made by devs here, but there is no way I'd be as dismissive as you with the attitude of: "That's a 30 minute change, why haven't they done it yet."

[aaezil]

why are you weirdos arguing about off topic stuff in this thread lmao?

[Kika Maslyaka]

It's not an issue of the "server crashing".

There are standards you follow and you follow them for a reason. Every time. You don't develop bad habits.

I've given you several examples of reasons why this would be applicable even in this case. You're ignoring them because you don't want your initial post to be wrong. It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

And again, I don't profess to know the level of rigor that goes into changes made by devs here, but there is no way I'd be as dismissive as you with the attitude of: "That's a 30 minute change, why haven't they done it yet."


I know how SDLC works and why its important. But again - are you really going to go trough all this steps and months of reviews when you want to adjust drop rate of Rusty Dagger from 2.5% to 2.51%? I mean seriously?

And the real reason why "they haven't done't it yet" - is because shit isn't "classic". But not because they do not have the manpower of putting a Leash flag on a dozen of dragons in NTOV

[baakss]

I know how SDLC works and why its important. But again - are you really going to go trough all this steps and months of reviews when you want to adjust drop rate of Rusty Dagger from 2.5% to 2.51%? I mean seriously?

And the real reason why "they haven't done't it yet" - is because shit isn't "classic". But not because they do not have the manpower of putting a Leash flag on a dozen of dragons in NTOV

Except that you clearly don't understand any of it. Your original suggestion was: point, click, and change a value in a DB. Nobody who understood why a SDLC is important would suggest that. You write a script, and it goes through normal change management, whatever that may be in this case.

One day when you are in charge of something of actual importance, you'll understand the reasons for following standards. And you'll get to explain these reasons to junior developers, sort of like I'm doing for you.

However, you are correct about one thing: The reason they haven't done it yet is likely because they don't want to. It's probably not a change that should be made.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Except that you clearly don't understand any of it. Your original suggestion was: point, click, and change a value in a DB. Nobody who understood why a SDLC is important would suggest that. You write a script, and it goes through normal change management, whatever that may be in this case.

One day when you are in charge of something of actual importance, you'll understand the reasons for following standards. And you'll get to explain these reasons to junior developers, sort of like I'm doing for you.


And that's why SIMPLE changes take MONTHS to implement. Because people apply these standards to things that don't require them.

I mean do you want me to show you where you need to point and click to set Leash flag?
Here:

[ZiggyTheMuss]

This is super fascinating, guys. Thank you for sharing it here instead of in PMs.

[baakss]

Hey! That sure is simple.

You’ll revisit the issue on the next iteration of the server because you don’t understand why change management is important. Or God forbid you have a DB rollback, then you get to do this again, if you remember it. Or maybe you make a typo when you point and click in prod because you were too lazy to write a script. Or you miss a couple of records you updated in Dev.

Or you could just take the time to do it properly.

You do it your way though, kiddo. Just on your own server though because it’s not classic.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Hey! That sure is simple.

You’ll revisit the issue on the next iteration of the server because you don’t understand why change management is important. Or God forbid you have a DB rollback, then you get to do this again, if you remember it. Or maybe you make a typo when you point and click in prod because you were too lazy to write a script. Or you miss a couple of records you updated in Dev.

Or you could just take the time to do it properly.

You do it your way though, kiddo. Just on your own server though because it’s not classic.

a) back up Db before doing changes - point & click
b) write an sql line that adjusts not 1 mob but 12 and save it somewhere - 1 min
c) run your sql line - 10 seconds
d) back up DB after doing the changes - point & click

Are we done?

[baakss]

a) back up Db before doing changes - point & click
b) write an sql line that adjusts not 1 mob but 12 and save it somewhere - 1 min
c) run your sql line - 10 seconds
d) back up DB after doing the changes - point & click

Are we done?

I am now 100% certain you have no idea what you’re doing.

When you create the new server, green or whatever, out of the hundreds/thousands of changes, how do you remember that this change was applied?

How do you know whether this change should be applied at the beginning of Velious and not this point in the timeline?

How do the other devs on the team know what you just did?

You also left out testing, conveniently. And did you do this directly in production?

[Kika Maslyaka]

I am now 100% certain you have no idea what you’re doing.

When you create the new server, green or whatever, out of the hundreds/thousands of changes, how do you remember that this change was applied?

How do you know whether this change should be applied at the beginning of Velious and not this point in the timeline?

How do the other devs on the team know what you just did?

You also left out testing, conveniently. And did you do this directly in production?

Except - I don't care about those OTHER changes. I don't care about timeline changes. I don't care about Green shit. I was asked on implementation of specific feature - I got it under 5 min. And testing in this case is done by repoping npcs in question - even server reset is not required. Again I am NOT rewriting any part of the code that actually requires testing.

"How do the other devs on the team know what you just did?" - you put it into log. "Updated npcs flags set BLA to X/Y - see this sql line"