Staff Question: Why Unclassic Variance on Shady Goblin?

[loramin]

First off, this is purely a request: you all have already given me a great server with stellar CS that I enjoy playing on, and it'd be selfish and short-sighted to demand anything further.

But, a simple explanation of the Shady Goblin variance would be really nice, as it seems to fly in the face of the Project 1999 goals. By that I mean ... does anyone remember buying their OT hammer as a puppet string charge in 2000? Does anyone remember their main tanks clicking mallets to gain agro? Does anyone remember recharges and multi-quests being as common as they are here?

No, because all those things are unclassic experiences, but classic mechanics, and P99 has time after time after time chosen classic mechanics over classic experience. Midnight mallets, puppet strings, re-charging and multi-questing all existed as mechanics on live, so they exist here, even though their use here is anything but classic. This is the P99 way: as classic as possible mechanics, unless there are technical limits or CS limits.

The shady goblin doesn't fit that profile: it's unclassic, there is no technical reason, and it doesn't make the staff's job any easier. The stated reason why GM Cyclock requested changing it was because players knew how it worked, but player knowledge has never (to my knowledge) mattered before in P99 history, with the sole exception of ZEMs. What's worse, this change creates more discord and acrimony among the players. The community has worked really hard to establish a roll for Shady, and the variance has by far been the biggest thorn in our side.

In short, Shady variance is unclassic in a way nothing else on P99 is (except maybe ZEMs). It also creates more drama, not less. All I'm asking, as respectfully as possible, is ... why? Why create drama to fight the stated goals of this project?

[Erati]

+1 please remove variance from shady goblin....it serves no purpose.

[loramin]

Well, at this point I'm really just focused on the why myself. Maybe the staff had a great reason for this I'm just not realizing?

Or maybe it wasn't thought out fully and my post will change some minds, but really this wasn't a "please can we change stuff" request: I just wanted to understand why this one mob was handled so differently from everything else in the project (except, again, ZEMs, which I think have a much better argument for being an exception).

[diamondfist]

The bearer of entry is lowered when the timer is exact on mobs like this and scout.

Its lowered even more when it becomes a roll.

having 20-80 people show up on timed intervals to roll dice at a chance of loot doesnt feel classic at all.


As I mentioned in another thread staff could get creative with ways of not only breaking this up, but also punishing those who are breaking the rules by using autofire as a means to secure their turn ins. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2862191&postcount=132)


The other option is to really really fuck with variance and or spawn location (this isnt classic, but we do have unclassic things here already)


If this 24 hour mob had a variance more like 12 hours - 36? 48? hours you would set the bearer of entry back to what it was on live after the initial rush of neckbeards power gaming their way through the shitty windows. (this would most likely take a few months) after that you may actually find people logging in to randomly find it up like live...

You would actually have to ask around to find the timers for last spawn and do work... instead of just showing up at an exact x time, or x time +/- a few hours

Which is a simple repetitive action. Scout rolls which have been established for a long time show how this plays out exactly.

[aaezil]

having a million level 60s and a million lvl 60 alts all wanting this one quest isn't classic either. New server?

[nilbog]

I wasn't aware there was a non-classic variance for shady goblin. Likely, it is something I either tested, or encountered doing research for the quest.

If it is not classic, it can be changed.

[aaezil]

goblin variance was premature guys

[Para99]

Now someone just needs to find the proof that the variance was added on the June 5, 2002 patch like the Zam posts suggest.

[nilbog]

It's hard to remember the day I wrote this quest, almost a year and a half ago, much less the details.

Willing to fix it if it's wrong. I'm not sure how to interpret the last 2 posts in this thread if someone wants to translate.

[Para99]

It's hard to remember the day I wrote this quest, almost a year and a half ago, much less the details.

Willing to fix it if it's wrong. I'm not sure how to interpret the last 2 posts in this thread if someone wants to translate.

A lot of the Zam posts suggest it was nerfed on the June 5, 2002 patch and was a 24 hour spawn before that but I didn't spend much time other than that looking. I referenced it in the other shady goblin thread my bad my post didn't make sense without the context.

Shady Goblin has been missing on Vallon Zek since the June 5th patch. Has anybody seen him at all? On any server? Any information would be helpful. If you find yourself in Warlisk Woods, please pay his spot a visit. :) It's driving me nuts. Hope you all have better luck than I do at finding him.

I've Been trying to catch him up for about 4 days on Ayonae Ro and have yet to see him, and I have been trying to check every couple hours and I have yet to see him either. Knowing VI they probably broke the spawn in one of their last patches. I hope they fix this soon if that truely is the case as I hate being stuck on part of a quest because of a fooked up spawn.

Xegony server reporting in. I know of at least one other person doing the quest on my server and he has not been able to find shady either. The only thing that makes sense is that Verant made a stealth change and decided to either increase the spawn time or they changed the name of the mob to something else.

Just a suggestion: maybe try talking to some of the NPC's in the area could yield some results. I'm not exactly liked there so until my faction with the lizzies is a bit higher I won't be trying to get any info from them.

[loramin]

It's hard to remember the day I wrote this quest, almost a year and a half ago, much less the details.

Willing to fix it if it's wrong. I'm not sure how to interpret the last 2 posts in this thread if someone wants to translate.

Thank you Lord Nilbog! (And as an aside I'm just now realizing the irony of you of all people answering a post about an unclassic goblin.) It sounds like maybe this was just a case of crossed wires and not a deliberate decision after all.

A lot of the Zam posts suggest it was nerfed on the June 5, 2002 patch and was a 24 hour spawn before that but I didn't spend much time other than that looking. I referenced it in the other shady goblin thread my bad my post didn't make sense without the context.

Thank you Para99 for the summaries! And if this isn't enough I'd be happy to find more evidence.

[Para99]

Here's another thread from July 2002 saying he was broken and saying there was a Monkly Business thread about it being broken, Monkly Business thread wasn't captured by Wayback machine. 4 different people in this thread saying it was recently broken
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theconcerthall/need-some-help-tracking-down-the-shady-goblin-t2886.html



Jul 02, 2002 #1
What I haven't been able to do is track down the shady goblin in Warslik Woods. I've read a couple of boards that have reported him missing. If this quest is broken, I'd sure like to know so that I can /feedback, /bug, /whatever until it gets fixed.
Jul 03, 2002 #2
Pretty sure that the spawn is currently broken (ie he's not spawning). I'm stuck on the same step and havent seen him for weeks.

Jul 03, 2002 #3
Same exactly problem, im at the shady goblin part and he isn't spawning. Most likely broken as others have said

Jul 08, 2002 #4
The shady goblin bit seems broken indeed...;(

[DMN]

I don't find any of those anecdotes very compelling evidence. But take heart EverPixelers, I have no say here. I remember there being all sorts of stories/claims about outdoor mobs like these. Probably heard over a hundred often times contradictory anecdotal claims of Pyzjin's spawns back in the day.

[hobart]

The bearer of entry is lowered when the timer is exact on mobs like this and scout.

If this 24 hour mob had a variance more like 12 hours - 36? 48? hours you would set the bearer of entry back to what it was on live..

Server first cords. Server last on knowing the term "barrier to entry".

[Pringles]

Not seeing any evidence that there was no variance on the goblin. Only thing I can think of is maybe quest mobs weren't subject to the same variance rules as other mobs were. In the absence of some evidence for that a 24 hour spawn would have around a 10% variance.

[Wonkie]

spawn length variance plz, go

[Swish2]

This server partly runs on bottlenecks and people still needing to do various things/kill various NPCs for various rare items...

Welcome to the latest fun addition.

[Para99]

Not seeing any evidence that there was no variance on the goblin. Only thing I can think of is maybe quest mobs weren't subject to the same variance rules as other mobs were. In the absence of some evidence for that a 24 hour spawn would have around a 10% variance.

The guides are where the 24 hours is from, where is 10% variance for Shady from? A lot of the complaints reference that how.to/chardok guide but the wayback capture for it is a dead page, Zam had 24 hours on the 2002 Wayback capture for the quest and still does.

Maybe the spawn was broke for a few months around 6/02 because the complaints do just disappear after a few months and I found another post from 2004 (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/paladinsofnorrath/spawn-times-t659.html) saying Shady was still 24 hours and Angry was still 3 days +/- 10%.

Imo either the spawn was broke for a few months, the variance was added June 2002, or the variance was always there and was much much longer than +/- 3 hours and no one noticed until June 2002. It seems really unlikely to me there would be no complaints at all for 8 months then a bunch of complaints in the same few weeks if nothing changed.

Probably heard over a hundred often times contradictory anecdotal claims of Pyzjin's spawns back in the day.

Apples and oranges, Pyzjin has PH's and roams. Shady is either standing where he spawns or is between spawns.

[Rygar]

If the true respawn is set to 24 hrs, I previously uncovered evidence that Scott Charisa is indeed on basically an 11hr30min timer with +/- 30 mins.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281965

If that is to be believed, I also found evidence that every mob in EQ with a spawn time over 2hrs had a variance. Post here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2639857&postcount=26

They mention the variance modifier is percentage based, so if evidence on the variance is lacking, safer to assume doubling the scout variance (so +/- 1hr would be my suggestion).

There are definitely exceptions to this such as skipping spawn cycles to extend variance, but without that evidence I say the +/- 1hr is good, or at least a happy compromise.

[DMN]

Apples and oranges, Pyzjin has PH's and roams. Shady is either standing where he spawns or is between spawns.

Spawns might be apples to oranges, but the analogy isn't. Not a single one of those posts even mentioned variance or the possibility thereof. I don't see a single one even saying they had the timer for the spawn.

[Para99]

Spawns might be apples to oranges, but the analogy isn't. Not a single one of those posts even mentioned variance or the possibility thereof. I don't see a single one even saying they had the timer for the spawn.

Your words suggest you agree with me but the phrasing suggests you don't. No one even considered it wasn't 24 hours until mid 2002 immediately after 3 patches in 48 hours after which he became impossible to find up across multiple servers all at once for months. When you are looking up 20 year old information that wasn't posted with the intent to be around for decades you have to consider the context.

[DMN]

Your words suggest you agree with me but the phrasing suggests you don't. No one even considered it wasn't 24 hours until mid 2002 immediately after 3 patches in 48 hours after which he became impossible to find up across multiple servers all at once for months. When you are looking up 20 year old information that wasn't posted with the intent to be around for decades you have to consider the context.

Again, they didn't say they had the respawn timer. I don't understand how this can be so confusing for someone who actually plays EQ. Even if you think it's 24 hours you still need to know 24 hours FROM WHEN.

[Para99]

Again, they didn't say they had the respawn timer. I don't understand how this can be so confusing for someone who actually plays EQ. Even if you think it's 24 hours you still need to know 24 hours FROM WHEN.

Oh, I just realized you didn't actually click the link

In the Safehouse some guy camped him for 48 hours straight (the motivation...the time...) but that gob didn't show his green skin.
http://pub175.ezboard.com/fthesafehousefrm13.showMessage?topicID=5193.topic (dead link)


48 hours is longer than 24 hours +/- 10%. The mob doesn't move, even if you were AFK for 48 hours and someone turned in then the quest text would tell you he spawned. Even without that specific post the context and timing of the other posts suggests something changed, probably that it was broken, one guy says he checked for 4 days and one guy for weeks. There is nothing that I've seen that anyone thought Shady was +/- 3 hours.

[DMN]

All that seems to suggest, if true, was either that there was a bug occurring and/or the variance was massively larger than 10%. Of course, there's also the possibility it's a "big fish story" of a frustrated camper. In any case, I don't see how this supports the claim it had no variance outside of this "bug period".

[Pringles]

If the true respawn is set to 24 hrs, I previously uncovered evidence that Scott Charisa is indeed on basically an 11hr30min timer with +/- 30 mins.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281965

If that is to be believed, I also found evidence that every mob in EQ with a spawn time over 2hrs had a variance. Post here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2639857&postcount=26

They mention the variance modifier is percentage based, so if evidence on the variance is lacking, safer to assume doubling the scout variance (so +/- 1hr would be my suggestion).

There are definitely exceptions to this such as skipping spawn cycles to extend variance, but without that evidence I say the +/- 1hr is good, or at least a happy compromise.

This thread as unorganized as it is has most of what we could find on classic variance.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2639857#post2639857

Seem's what variance that has been put in the game since that post has adhered fairly closely the the facts laid out therein.

conjecture: One thing that struck me looking back was the absence of evidence for variation being both +/- . With the time of deaths we do have it seems a mob popping with a negative variance was more unicorn than the rule.

[Alesclandre]

I did this quest 3 times on live and i swear A Shady Goblin had a 24h respawn with no variance.

[Hotel]

I did this quest 3 times on live and i swear A Shady Goblin had a 24h respawn with no variance.

he swore. wrap it up bois