Alone in classic on an infinite timeline

[sox7d]

Thought experiment: What would one player be capable of with infinite time on a P99-like server if they were the only one on it? Where would they hit a wall in progress? What would be the hardest thing they could obtain?

[Hibbs]

Every class would be a bit different. I feel like ENC would be the top notch pick.. not trying to be bias lol

It would be tough to gain spells 55+

Even spells like Allure would be tough. 1 page is easy but the other one only drops out of planes/ bottom of seb

I don't think any class would be able to obtain an epic solo

[Tethler]

Assuming you mean no boxing as well?

[sox7d]

Assuming you mean no boxing as well?

Correct! Although, a two-box is an equally interesting idea.

[Foxplay]

Alone with no boxing... best your ganna do is a enchanter. Shaman needs gear and epic in order to compete / exceed what a enchanter can do with rags

Most you could achieve? In terms of gearing you could get a full set of thurgadin silk by charming kael and scrounging for armor drops

Raid bosses are completely out of the question...Kael / HoT armor is completely impossible as well as nothing is charmable there and even if you could charm the baby drakes near Eashen on p99 they still cant go toe to toe with a HoT mob

[loramin]

A Shaman couldn't get a fungi, but I think they could farm an Ikky BP. They could also solo the OT golem (it would take forever without malo but I'd think eventually you'd luck out and land stuff) to eventually get Torpor. Epic would be impossible without some serious cheats/hacks, although that raises the question: what rules and/or imaginary GMs are there are on this server?

[Madbad]

p99 rules just no one else there

[loramin]

p99 rules just no one else there

Well, P99 Gm's are not perfect: you can probably cheat sometimes and get away with it, but eventually you get caught. That's fine for a finite server.

But with infinite time you could just keep cheating, getting caught, trying again, etc. until you got lucky and got away with it enough times to cheat a series of encounters. And that might open up certain possibilities for say soloing epics.

[nothsa]

enchanter might be able to solo thier epic

[cornisthebest]

can enchanter solo cazel? lol

[Hibbs]

No

They also cant solo shissar in fear

or prince

[Hibbs]

Enc can solo dragons in WW. you could atleast get a +4 neck!

[Madbad]

quickly turning into a "what is the best thing an enchanter can solo" thread

[Hibbs]

quickly turning into a "what is the best thing an enchanter can solo" thread

[Foxplay]

can enchanter solo cazel? lol

Yes easily

[Hibbs]

Yes easily

Hows that done??

[Foxplay]

Hows that done??

Ok well... for a completely alone server its not "easy" because some of the items needed are a lot easier to get due to p99's economy

Charm the female gypsy, shes blue con at level 60, give her haste + a haste item (mithril 2handed sword)

Tash and kite Cazel for slow

Hasted gypsi + Torment of Argli + asphyxiate will defeat cazel ... now if charm breaks prepare to be summoned and splatted because Cazel is a giant and unstunnable...

Also heard there is a method where you can charm him specifically and have the gypsies gang up on him? Ive never done this method I just charmed and equiped + hasted the female gypsy in the middle, and had a druid friend throw some dots on Cazel to defeat his hp regen faster

[Hibbs]

Ok well... for a completely alone server its not "easy" because some of the items needed are a lot easier to get due to p99's economy

Charm the female gypsy, shes blue con at level 60, give her haste + a haste item (mithril 2handed sword)

Tash and kite Cazel for slow

Hasted gypsi + Torment of Argli + asphyxiate will defeat cazel ... now if charm breaks prepare to be summoned and splatted because Cazel is a giant and unstunnable...

Also heard there is a method where you can charm him specifically and have the gypsies gang up on him? Ive never done this method I just charmed and equiped + hasted the female gypsy in the middle, and had a druid friend throw some dots on Cazel to defeat his hp regen faster

I was trying to think of a way and the best thing I could think of was to charm each gypsies (I think there are 3?) then torch and haste them. Head over to cazel use a low lvl root (for duration) get a slow on him. charm him and attack each of the gypsies in camp let them beat him almost dead... but now stuck having to break charm and somehow kill him before he regens (350+ a tick)/ or you get summoned and smashed by all 4 of them.

And okay I've never tried charmed Gypsie with a haste item, but I've tried Gypsie + haste + torch + chanter dots and it cant out do his regen. Maybe with another form of haste it'll make it feasible, but its hard to see.

[Hibbs]

Back on topic I've seen Sugz solo with his Necro in PoFear. Could be possible to obtain planer gear on a Necro?

[ScottBerta]

Why would you want to play this game alone with no other players?? Would be so boring. At least I would want 5 other friends on server so we could have a full group and do some semi hard stuff.

[ScottBerta]

Back on topic I've seen Sugz solo with his Necro in PoFear. Could be possible to obtain planer gear on a Necro?



Ya, but these people you see soloing have excellent gear already. Alone on server they would not have the hp or mana that Sugz has.

[Hibbs]

Ya, but these people you see soloing have excellent gear already. Alone on server they would not have the hp or mana that Sugz has.

Oh that's true!

[P99Druid]

No

They also cant solo shissar in fear

or prince

I've soloed Shissir in Fear, but not the break in to get there.

[P99Druid]

Ok well... for a completely alone server its not "easy" because some of the items needed are a lot easier to get due to p99's economy

Charm the female gypsy, shes blue con at level 60, give her haste + a haste item (mithril 2handed sword)

Tash and kite Cazel for slow

Hasted gypsi + Torment of Argli + asphyxiate will defeat cazel ... now if charm breaks prepare to be summoned and splatted because Cazel is a giant and unstunnable...

Also heard there is a method where you can charm him specifically and have the gypsies gang up on him? Ive never done this method I just charmed and equiped + hasted the female gypsy in the middle, and had a druid friend throw some dots on Cazel to defeat his hp regen faster


Easier to charm the gypsy, fear cazel, asphyxiate, and spam Dementia, he dies very fast that way.

[Hibbs]

Easier to charm the gypsy, fear cazel, asphyxiate, and spam Dementia, he dies very fast that way.

In a solo play I feel like that would be pretty hard. Lets say somehow you manage to get a mana pool of 2500. Dementia costs 250 per cast hitting for a max of 675. If you were at full mana that's 10 casts (not including re-fearing) which is 6750 damage (No resist).

EDIT: Asphyxiate is 950 for 250mana over 20 ticks. you'd lose 1 Dementia cast, so you would do 6950 damage to Cazel.

Cazel has 9750 hp. That Gypsie has some damage, but I dunno if its 3000+

plus in 1 minute Cazel regens 3500 HP's

[Legidias]

YFW whole thread is an advertisement for red server

[Jimjam]

Are ground transfers permitted?

Different classes different capabilities, may sometimes be handy to use different rooms for different encounters and gear each other up.

Likewise switching characters for harmonies or zoneline snare splits (not classic) etc

[Seiter02]

You may not be able to 2-box but if you can switch characters, I think many of the things listed here actually get a lot easier.

Wraith can most definitely be done if you have a 60 druid and a 60 enchanter with a lot of patience (and dying)

Many epic mobs can be managed with some harmony, pull, root, logout strats.

Certain mobs that are absolutely un-soloable are soloable with some logout tricks. (I may or may not have some experience with said tricks)

So... alone on a server, with infinite time, I would level a druid, enchanter and shaman and I think with logout tricks could do many things that seem unsoloable.

[Yasi]

(I am sure this might work with other classes too, but I am no expert for diciplines of all classes)

In theory, you could get an unlimited number of level 60 monks. You could log your infinite number of monks next to mobs and then log in one monk after another to fight the mob with voiddance (8sec dodge all melee attacks). Once a monk dies, you'd log in the next one.

With this technique, you could kill any mob who does not reg more health during your relog than you deal in the 8 to X seconds of each monk.

Thinking about it, this might be the worsed thing anyone has ever done to him or herself.

[Synthlol]

Back on topic I've seen Sugz solo with his Necro in PoFear. Could be possible to obtain planer gear on a Necro?

Yes. I solo'd most of my Blighted back in Kunark by root rotting boogeys south of Dread temple.

[Maschenny]

A Shaman couldn't get a fungi, but I think they could farm an Ikky BP. They could also solo the OT golem (it would take forever without malo but I'd think eventually you'd luck out and land stuff) to eventually get Torpor. Epic would be impossible without some serious cheats/hacks, although that raises the question: what rules and/or imaginary GMs are there are on this server?

Can shamans actually solo cliff golems without torpor? If so, i would love to see it. I just can't even really imagine this being possible.

[Rygar]

I think back in the day an SK soloed his final epic fight. He basically got bound right by Lhranc and bind rushed him with HT (was more unresistable back then, not talking P99 mechanics). Was like, a ton of corpses. I don't know if this was Luclin or PoP to be fair.

I think it would be interesting to use tactics like that. I think you can definitely beat a lot of Kunark bosses. Consider that you can maybe corpse soulfires / DA idols / wort pots / Ivandyr Hoops / Bladestoppers, etc. in order to do some serious bind rush damage. Corpsing items would be interesting, because you'd lose exp doing it each time and corpse only lasts so long (probably best to do this on a classic Red server where you can take a zero exp death by drowning / falling).

It would just become about clickies, which quickly becomes lame and tiresome! Think that is why they were banned from Test of Tactics.

Kind of cool to think about though.

[enjchanter]

enchanter might be able to solo thier epic

No way

Soloing prince would basically be impossible
With some insane luck , a soulfire and a corpse reaper or 2 .... like kinda maybe ?

InB4 god-among-men enchanter friend anecdote who solo'd AoW with 1200p in EC gear

[loramin]

Can shamans actually solo cliff golems without torpor? If so, i would love to see it. I just can't even really imagine this being possible.

Well, I'm operating on the assumption of infinite time, so the question isn't so much "can a Shaman do it without Malo or Torpor", it's more "if you tried a million times, would one of those attempts be super lucky and let you land everything you need to kill the golem (without Malo/Torpor)?" Because with infinite time you can take those million tries (and earn back the XP lost from each).

So like maybe normally it's impossible to root/rot the golem, but if there's even a 0.1% chance that you can land root, then in theory if you make enough attempts, you'll get an attempt where both roots and the DoTs manage to land, despite it being incredibly unlikely, and so you'd manage to kill the golem.

And if it "only" takes a million attempts to kill a single golem, then with infinite time you can totally make the thousand million attempts to get enough kills to actually loot Malo/Torpor.

Infinite time EQ is weird (but a fun thought experiment, thanks OP!)

[Foxplay]

Well, I'm operating on the assumption of infinite time, so the question isn't so much "can a Shaman do it without Malo or Torpor", it's more "if you tried a million times, would one of those attempts be super lucky and let you land everything you need to kill the golem (without Malo/Torpor)?" Because with infinite time you can take those million tries (and earn back the XP lost from each).

So like maybe normally it's impossible to root/rot the golem, but if there's even a 0.1% chance that you can land root, then in theory if you make enough attempts, you'll get an attempt where both roots and the DoTs manage to land, despite it being incredibly unlikely, and so you'd manage to kill the golem.

And if it "only" takes a million attempts to kill a single golem, then with infinite time you can totally make the thousand million attempts to get enough kills to actually loot Malo/Torpor.

Infinite time EQ is weird (but a fun thought experiment, thanks OP!)

You guys are missing the easier possibility....

This person could use a Enchanter to do the early "heavy lifting" Tash, land slow, use
Astral projection as charm to solo the Golems, then ground xfer Torpor (after lots and lots of farming.... dying to charm breaks / ETC

(Tash and slow are vendor spells *Well Forlorn's isnt but its not 60 either*) And Boltran can be used to substitue for Allure until you get the proper pages

However then the question becomes.... is a non epic Torpor Shaman stronger than a well played enchanter? Probably not... they could be equal but I really don't see a Torpor shaman without epic exceeding a well played enchanter

[Quizlop]

It should be noted that a Wizard is a hard requirement to enter Planes of Hate/Sky.

As a result of this, the only epics that wouldn't be hard-locked are:

Wizard
Druid
Shaman
Bard
Cleric

Edit: I guess some others might be possible if you are able to MQ the items from your Wizard.

[Rygar]

Technically, you can get your VP key and go to zone out pad for Plane of Sky. I know that Hate eventually had the Spectre portal in oasis as an entryway, would be interesting if that were allowed to be open (considering then enchanter epic is the only epic that is not obtainable, but is one of the least useful in this scenario).

I shudder at the thought of a wizard soloing a single mob in Hate, like ever. I suppose would need to farm a puppet string / soulfire / etc, but damn, there are tons of adds there. Wizards aren't equipped for that, even with full bag of clickies.

[Foxplay]

Technically, you can get your VP key and go to zone out pad for Plane of Sky. I know that Hate eventually had the Spectre portal in oasis as an entryway, would be interesting if that were allowed to be open (considering then enchanter epic is the only epic that is not obtainable, but is one of the least useful in this scenario).

I shudder at the thought of a wizard soloing a single mob in Hate, like ever. I suppose would need to farm a puppet string / soulfire / etc, but damn, there are tons of adds there. Wizards aren't equipped for that, even with full bag of clickies.

VP key requires Trak tooth - plz explain plan for soloing Trakanon heh

[Castigate]

Well, I'm operating on the assumption of infinite time, so the question isn't so much "can a Shaman do it without Malo or Torpor", it's more "if you tried a million times, would one of those attempts be super lucky and let you land everything you need to kill the golem (without Malo/Torpor)?" Because with infinite time you can take those million tries (and earn back the XP lost from each).

So like maybe normally it's impossible to root/rot the golem, but if there's even a 0.1% chance that you can land root, then in theory if you make enough attempts, you'll get an attempt where both roots and the DoTs manage to land, despite it being incredibly unlikely, and so you'd manage to kill the golem.

And if it "only" takes a million attempts to kill a single golem, then with infinite time you can totally make the thousand million attempts to get enough kills to actually loot Malo/Torpor.

Infinite time EQ is weird (but a fun thought experiment, thanks OP!)

An enchanter can fairly easily solo cliff golems with just Corundium or Tourmaline as a pet, hell even if charm breaks the golem wont interrupt your boltrans as long as its slowed, you stun the pet, and time it right. They're not fun, but over time you'll get all your Kunark spells that way.

Hell its not even that dangerous assuming you have infinite time for your Shaman to get your Enchanter a billion wort pots, and I think that's the crux of the whole thing, just how far do you want to take it? I bet a reasonably equipped Monk, or maybe Warrior would be better with extra slows from Truncheon of Doom, along with hundreds of corpsed Soulfires and even more wort pots could solo a pre-slowed, tashed, and maloed ToV cubby drake granting all your characters WToV armor.

Some raid mobs are probably even doable with enough soulfires laying around.
Sucks about Hate/Sky though

[norova]

This thread is fun. Keep it goin!

[Castigate]

VP key requires Trak tooth - plz explain plan for soloing Trakanon heh

Well assuming you have infinite time in any and all patch timelines you want from p99 you could conceivably load up about 100 pre-nerf Ivandyr's Hoops on corpses and maybe knock trak below 97% before getting shroomed, then get summoned back without getting any adds on one of your million attempts and spam those hoops to kill him. Would need to set up a really fast method of looting/using/destroying them though.
Theoretically you might even be able to kill some VP dragons and all the Kunark world dragons with the hoop.
In order to make any of that work though you'd need to be able to retain somewhere around 100 corpses, maybe a lot more than that depending on dragon regen, and you'd need to get each corpse a hoop and probably a reaper, and then you'd need to have like a monk or something drag all of them into Traks lair, and then you'd probably need to solo Prot and a jugg or 2 somehow before Trak, and you'd need to maintain level 60, all within a 1 week corpse time-frame, so you'd probably need to use a Bard, Paladin, or Cleric to actually kill Trak, or really anything requiring a massive corpse pile since you cant duel anyone to prevent XP loss.

[Pyrrhica]

This thread makes my head hurt.

[branamil]

Being trapped in norrath for eternity was an episode of black mirror

[I Felt Nostalgic]

Being trapped in norrath for eternity was an episode of black mirror

Got a season and episode number?

[Rygar]

Well assuming you have infinite time in any and all patch timelines you want from p99 you could conceivably load up about 100 pre-nerf Ivandyr's Hoops on corpses and maybe knock trak below 97% before getting shroomed, then get summoned back without getting any adds on one of your million attempts and spam those hoops to kill him. Would need to set up a really fast method of looting/using/destroying them though.
Theoretically you might even be able to kill some VP dragons and all the Kunark world dragons with the hoop.
In order to make any of that work though you'd need to be able to retain somewhere around 100 corpses, maybe a lot more than that depending on dragon regen, and you'd need to get each corpse a hoop and probably a reaper, and then you'd need to have like a monk or something drag all of them into Traks lair, and then you'd probably need to solo Prot and a jugg or 2 somehow before Trak, and you'd need to maintain level 60, all within a 1 week corpse time-frame, so you'd probably need to use a Bard, Paladin, or Cleric to actually kill Trak, or really anything requiring a massive corpse pile since you cant duel anyone to prevent XP loss.

Assuming actual classic mechanics are in play (and not present P99 meta), it would need to be on a PVP server to avoid exp death from corpsing BUT proper mechanics are corpse only lasts something like 24hrs of logged in play time. It would decay slower if you were offline.

You would be one super stressed individual lol. There is also that wand of 255 charges of PBAoE which is insta click (not sure if that is classic, sounds suspicious but dunno).

I have doubts that Velious raid mobs could ever be soloed, even with infinite time. With abilities like rampage it will prevent charm strats.

You bring up a good point of looting / destroying / utilizing the item solo with mobs that can potentially quad you in 1 round (remember you won't be Aego buffed or anything).

I think each corpse would need a DA idol, so you would hoop down mob / soulfire self / DA. Loot while DA, destroy hoop, loot new hoop, repeat. Keep DS pot on self for extra damage. Sheer time commitment would be immense to prevent the corpse rotting.

[Erati]

Trak would out regen hoop non sense, a tick would erase each hoop nearly so if you dont apply next hoop before tick you lose progress

[Evia]

Got a season and episode number?

I can remember the names....

San Junipero
USS Calister
Playtest
White Christmas

All kinda have that vibe

[Rygar]

Does he really regen that fast? Isn't a hoop ~200hp x 6 charges = 1,200hp/tick?

I'm not sure if damage shields affect mobs when beating on you during DA, but if you have DS Pot + Mage DS (from that potion for wiz epic or even a self DS) you can drain maybe an additional 50hp/attack, maybe get hit 6 times per tick = +300hp, effectively 1,500hp/tick.

Remember we'd be talking true classic mechanics, weren't water pets immune to either poison or disease (maybe both?). Perhaps they would be immune to the AoE, so if you DA'd close to track, he should still prioritize you as a target over the pet which would lend additional DPS.

Assuming you could maybe do ideally 1,600hp/tick with the above strat. And trak has 32k HP, you would need to have a bare minimum of 20 corpses with hoop / DA idol / occassional soulfire on each.

Assuming each corpse retrieval / refresh is 1 tick, that is 20 ticks of regen to factor in (unsure what his in combat regen is).

[Quizlop]

Doesn't Trak also lifetap?

Stack that on top of all the other regen.

[aaezil]

yeah each trak proc is 1500 dmg lifetap

It would be impossible to solo him in velious

[Rygar]

You guys are missing it that you would be DA the entire time except for when hooping / soulfiring (1 second?). Could try and time that so there is no tap on you.

[7thGate]

One thing that has not been mentioned is Oil of Fennin Ro. I believe you can get bags full of these and AOE click as fast as you can. I suspect it is possible to solo some silly things this way, especially if you can somehow keep alive.

The Cazel discussion is intriguing; I would probably attempt it by charming him, siccing him on the three gypsies who have all been prebuffed, then attempt to charm break and finish him with some type of instant-click damage, like the oil before he can get a regen tick or before you die to all the angry stuff. Would probably be finnicky as hell, especially since you have to avoid getting 1-rounded by everything on summon, but seems possible.

[branamil]

Interesting but not much point in soloing cazel if you can't get into plane of hate or sky to finish the epic. Instant damage clickies would be the name of the game for soloing though.

[Rygar]

The Oil of Fennin Ro seems cool, but I don't know how much resists you will get with it on uber mobs that may not be debuffed. Hoops would be near unresistable with classic resistance.

[7thGate]

Yeah, I am not sure. How well do fear golems resist non-lure fire nukes from a 60? A Rogue might be able to land lower resist poison and click one to death while evasive before getting death touched, though you would need pro-gamer level accuracy and speed on your clicking. A shaman might be able to malo and do the same thing with wort pots.

[Erati]

Does he really regen that fast? Isn't a hoop ~200hp x 6 charges = 1,200hp/tick?

I'm not sure if damage shields affect mobs when beating on you during DA, but if you have DS Pot + Mage DS (from that potion for wiz epic or even a self DS) you can drain maybe an additional 50hp/attack, maybe get hit 6 times per tick = +300hp, effectively 1,500hp/tick.

Remember we'd be talking true classic mechanics, weren't water pets immune to either poison or disease (maybe both?). Perhaps they would be immune to the AoE, so if you DA'd close to track, he should still prioritize you as a target over the pet which would lend additional DPS.

Assuming you could maybe do ideally 1,600hp/tick with the above strat. And trak has 32k HP, you would need to have a bare minimum of 20 corpses with hoop / DA idol / occassional soulfire on each.

Assuming each corpse retrieval / refresh is 1 tick, that is 20 ticks of regen to factor in (unsure what his in combat regen is).

Kunark Dragon regen is insane. VP its like 6% a tick, I think Trak regens like 2-4 % a tick.

Damage shields dont do anything while DA bc the mob cannot hit you.

[Bardp1999]

I think a Necro would get the furthest. Enchanters are great and all but you would have literally no way to heal. All alone in the world Feign Death seems almost mandatory. Also if you leveled up some other classes to help... you could...MAYBE?...solo the Monk epic? Especially if you cheesed the Xeno fight with guards?

[Rygar]

Kunark Dragon regen is insane. VP its like 6% a tick, I think Trak regens like 2-4 % a tick.

Damage shields dont do anything while DA bc the mob cannot hit you.

So basically could be done with 100 corpses: 100 corpsed hoops, 100 corpsed idols, 20 corpsed soulfires... and perfect timing.

Assuming you could drown yourself with zero exp loss in a death, and an in game decay timer of 24hrs, you have like 14 minutes to make each corpse and drag it into perfect position. Get trak solo ideally on engage...

This doesn't include time for camping idols and maintaining nearly 100 corpses in HHP. Transferring idols to seb...

Does such a powerful neckbeard exist amongst nerds..?

[I Felt Nostalgic]

Does such a powerful neckbeard exist amongst nerds..?

I like to think so.

[branamil]

Yeah my 30s were kind of a blur I spent that decade trying to kill trakanon on an empty server. Got him to 85% on try number 652 then the server got deleted after I was in urgent care of kidney problems. Not my proudest decade but I learned alot about myself

[Pint]

enchanter might be able to solo thier epic

Enchanter can't port themselves to pohate, check mate.

[Maschenny]

You guys are missing it that you would be DA the entire time except for when hooping / soulfiring (1 second?). Could try and time that so there is no tap on you.

Why would you need idols and soulfires in infinite time? There would be an infinite number of occaisions in which trak misses every attack and never procs his lifetap.

[Pringles]

Forget Boltzmann brains they got Boltzmann raids up in here.

[Castigate]

Yeah my 30s were kind of a blur I spent that decade trying to kill trakanon on an empty server. Got him to 85% on try number 652 then the server got deleted after I was in urgent care of kidney problems. Not my proudest decade but I learned alot about myself

I'd rather not think of this experiment as your life but an actual solo EQ hell that goes on for all eternity. :D

[Quizlop]

Why would you need idols and soulfires in infinite time? There would be an infinite number of occaisions in which trak misses every attack and never procs his lifetap.

I guess that makes the entire thought experiment pretty much moot then.

In infinite time, there will eventually exist an occasion for most mobs where they will miss every attack and you resist every spell.

[Rygar]

Why would you need idols and soulfires in infinite time? There would be an infinite number of occaisions in which trak misses every attack and never procs his lifetap.

Funny but false. As I understand it, the RNG at its core is based off a timed variable such as a micro second on the server. Since Trak's attack is timed as well it is mathematically impossible he will always miss and eventually his attack rate would be in sync with the microsecond value of a hit / proc success.

Caiu linked some site about a true RNG that uses values based off white noise from outer space. Only with this in place could your scenario be possible.

[DMN]

Funny but false. As I understand it, the RNG at its core is based off a timed variable such as a micro second on the server. Since Trak's attack is timed as well it is mathematically impossible he will always miss and eventually his attack rate would be in sync with the microsecond value of a hit / proc success.

Caiu linked some site about a true RNG that uses values based off white noise from outer space. Only with this in place could your scenario be possible.

I'm sure it is based off the clock and all that. That doesn't preclude getting long strings of a certain result and certainly not over an infinite time period.

[fadetree]

Hmm...it depends on the range of the RNG algorithm in use by P99. What it's seeded from doesn't matter, as long as it's not the same every time and has a value range that matches the limit of the RNG distribution. No matter the seed value, any algorithm is going to produce a characteristic range and distribution that looks statistically similar. If that range can be lopsided enough to never have a value that crosses the 'to hit' value then yeah...but these algorithms are designed not to do that kind of thing. I mean, they can only generate so many values before they wrap around again because they are deterministic and do not generate an infinite range of values. Any RNG that has a mathematical chance of generating very lopsided results is not a good RNG, by definition. I think there are seed values and generation lengths and algorithms that could do what is being talked about in a short run, but of course the chances get more and more unlikely the longer the series is.

So, basically I think that Rygar is correct, it wouldn't be possible using an algorithmic RNG such as the one P99 uses. It probably would be possible using an actual source of randomness, but the time range on that would certainly far exceed the life expectancy of any neckbeard, no matter how dedicated. Also, no one is sure what 'random' actually means or how to detect it. There's a paradox about detecting actual randomness...to detect it you have to define what it looks like, and if you do that then it's not random any more.

[loramin]

If that range can be lopsided enough to never have a value that crosses the 'to hit' value then yeah...but these algorithms are designed not to do that kind of thing. I mean, they can only generate so many values before they wrap around again because they are deterministic and do not generate an infinite range of values. Any RNG that has a mathematical chance of generating very lopsided results is not a good RNG, by definition.

You're massively misunderstanding randomness if you think that's true. By definition any RNG that can't (when given an infinite amount of time) generate lopsided results is a terrible RNG. A truly random RNG should generate a healthy series of "1 0 1 0 1 1 0 ..."-style sequences, but it absolutely should also generate "0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ..." from time to time, or else it's not truly random. And technically all computer-generated random numbers aren't actually random ... but the pseudo-random numbers that are generated are still far more random than that.

Also, to be clear every random number you will ever see in any computer game ever is timer based. That's just how computers generate random numbers, since they can't roll dice: they check the time, do some math on that time, and generate a (pseudo-)random number.

But, that in no way guarantees that "eventually you'll get hit because eventually you'll hit the right time". It's not like anything the computer is doing is based on time in that way: it's more like the computer looks at the last digit of the current millisecond (although it's not that simple), and obviously every time it checks that last digit could keep being 7 or whatever number it needs to be to fail.

Depending on how the EQ Emulator code works it's possible that their specific implementation ensures Trak never misses more than X number of times in a row, but there's nothing inherent in RNGs that would guarantee that, and unless someone did an experiment on their own private EQ Emu server to test it out I'd tend to believe the software really does have (pseudo-)random numbers.

[Rygar]

Monkeys locked in a room with a typewriter won't ever write Shakespeare. It is only a theoretical probability but can't actually happen.

Just like when people calculate the odds of a tornado assembling an airplane from raw parts.

Get back to reality and endulge this fantasy thread!

[fadetree]

You're massively misunderstanding randomness if you think that's true. By definition any RNG that can't (when given an infinite amount of time) generate lopsided results is a terrible RNG. A truly random RNG should generate a healthy series of "1 0 1 0 1 1 0 ..."-style sequences, but it absolutely should also generate "0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ..." from time to time, or else it's not truly random. And technically all computer-generated random numbers aren't actually random ... but the pseudo-random numbers that are generated are still far more random than that.

Also, to be clear every random number you will ever see in any computer game ever is timer based. That's just how computers generate random numbers, since they can't roll dice: they check the time, do some math on that time, and generate a (pseudo-)random number.

But, that in no way guarantees that "eventually you'll get hit because eventually you'll hit the right time". It's not like anything the computer is doing is based on time in that way: it's more like the computer looks at the last digit of the current millisecond (although it's not that simple), and obviously every time it checks that last digit could keep being 7 or whatever number it needs to be to fail.

Depending on how the EQ Emulator code works it's possible that their specific implementation ensures Trak never misses more than X number of times in a row, but there's nothing inherent in RNGs that would guarantee that, and unless someone did an experiment on their own private EQ Emu server to test it out I'd tend to believe the software really does have (pseudo-)random numbers.

Loramin, you always immediately want to argue with me, not sure why, but you are actually agreeing with some of my points as far as I can tell.

Nearly all software absolutely does use pseudo random numbers. These numbers are generated by a deterministic algorithm. They do not have an infinite range. They are indeed tested and designed to have a 'normal' distribution, meaning no huge lopsided runs as far as possible. As far as seeds, most are timer based but not all. Linux has it's own entropy source that is built up out of a bunch of different things, because just relying on an always increasing timer is actually *not* a very good source of randomness.

If you take all possible seeds, say a 32 or 64 bit integer range, and you feed them all one by one to a RNG, and you iterate each one fully across its range, you will get every possible number they can generate. That collection is not infinite. If you then do the exact same thing again, you'll get the same collection in the same order. Your point above about a 'truly random RNG' is the heart of the problem...P99 does not have, and there does not exist, a truly random algorithmic RNG. It is not possible. That's really my point - no computer generated series of RNG numbers is actually random. Can there be long sequences of 0's ? Sure, but if there are too many then that's not a very good RNG, the whole point is to have a normal distribution. I would expect there is no seed you can feed to a modern RNG that would wind up generating nothing but 0's across the whole range.

So whatever, put too much effort into this already. Rebut away.

[cornisthebest]

less talk about weird computer stuff, more talk about EQ

[loramin]

Loramin, you always immediately want to argue with me, not sure why, but you are actually agreeing with some of my points as far as I can tell.

Honest to god I didn't even notice/care whose name as on the left, and I have nothing whatsoever for or against you; you're just another poster to me and I was responding to what you wrote, not to you. TLDR; Don't flatter yourself ;)


The software absolutely does use pseudo random numbers. These numbers are generated by a deterministic algorithm. They do not have an infinite range. They are indeed tested and designed to have a 'normal' distribution, meaning no huge lopsided runs as far as possible. As far as seeds, most are timer based but not all. Linux has it's own entropy source that is built up out of a bunch of different things, because just relying on an always increasing timer is actually *not* a very good source of randomness.

If you take all possible seeds, say a 32 or 64 bit integer range, and you feed them all one by one to a RNG, and you iterate each one fully across its range, you will get every possible number they can generate. That collection is not infinite. If you then do the exact same thing again, you'll get the same collection in the same order. Your point above about a 'truly random RNG' is the heart of the problem...P99 does not have, and there does not exist, a truly random algorithmic RNG. It is not possible. That's really my point - no computer generated series of RNG numbers is actually random. Can there be long sequences of 0's ? Sure, but if there are too many then that's not a very good RNG, the whole point is to have a normal distribution. I would expect there is no seed you can feed to an RNG that would wind up generating nothing but 0's across the whole range.

So whatever, put too much effort into this already. Rebut away.

So, my post was not a treatise on how RNGs in computers work, it was just an explanation of some basics. But you seem to be stuck in the weeds of the argument, and it's making your miss the forest from the trees (to mix metaphors).

Yes, computer RNGs are only pseudo-random. No that does not mean you can't get a "series of 0's". Despite there being limits to how actually random a computer-generated random number can be, those limits in no way prevent a series of zeroes. They are not random in a mathematical sense, and there's ways you can prove as much, but for practical purposes in a computer game they are more than random enough.

And yes, the people that make the algorithms to generate RNGs do expect their RNGs to generate a certain distribution of numbers ... but that distribution includes extreme cases on both ends (long series of zeroes and long series of ones). If you don't see those happening (very rarely) you've made a terrible RNG.

So look, we don't need to get all computer science theory about this: the intricate details of how RNGs work simply aren't relevant. All anyone needs to know is that computer RNGs generate non-random, but close enough to random to be good enough for our purposes, random numbers. And those random numbers can and will (in an infinite timeline) result in a long series of misses for Trakanon at some point unless the EQ Emulator software says itself says otherwise.

[maskedmelon]

Loramin, you always immediately want to argue with me, not sure why, but you are actually agreeing with some of my points as far as I can tell..

It's the "Let's see how convincingly I can RP this sock, while buffaloing good-faith actors" game. Used to confuse the heck outta me too. I just play along now.

[loramin]

It's the "Let's see how convincingly I can RP this sock, while buffaloing good-faith actors" game. Used to confuse the heck outta me too. I just play along now.

"Buffaloing good-faith actors" ... fuck Melon, how can I take offense at anything you say when you use words like buffalo in the verb form!

As a side note, did you know that "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" is actually a valid English sentence? But I digress.

For what it's worth, there's no sock RPing here; the real Loramin is just the genuinely strange person you see in the forums.

[maskedmelon]

"Buffaloing good-faith actors" ... fuck Melon, how can I take offense at anything you say when you use words like buffalo in the verb form!

creative liberty

But for what it's worth, there's no sock RPing here; the real Loramin is just the strange person you see in the forums.

oh man, I don't think you're strange at all, you're a pretty cool dude. lotta admiration for your talents.

[maskedmelon]

As a side note, did you know that "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" is actually a valid English sentence? But I digress.


i did not and had just accepted that the usage in my poast may have been abusive. I'd think the you'd need to throw in some conjugating variation for the buffalo sentence to be valid though. super cool if not.

[loramin]

I'd think the you'd need to throw in some conjugating variation for the buffalo sentence to be valid though. super cool if not.

"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo." is a grammatically correct sentence in American English ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Bu ffalo_buffalo

[maskedmelon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Bu ffalo_buffalo

too cool

[Muggens]

Do the buffalo stance!

[astuce999]

Bards would have a lot of options in this scenario, but would of course fall short of epic. They could solo pretty much anything that is mezzable, and get a lot of toys without any help (e.g. heiro cloak, tash stick, breath of harmony).

If you could spend an infinite time between patches, there's probably a lot more stuff a bard could do since every other patch is a fix for something broken about bards. Like that time in early Kunark where bard charm didn't have a level cap nor restrictions on targets (ever heard of the legend of the bard Treesong who charmed CT in PoF?)

good times.

Astuce

[Maschenny]

Bards would have a lot of options in this scenario, but would of course fall short of epic. They could solo pretty much anything that is mezzable, and get a lot of toys without any help (e.g. heiro cloak, tash stick, breath of harmony).

If you could spend an infinite time between patches, there's probably a lot more stuff a bard could do since every other patch is a fix for something broken about bards. Like that time in early Kunark where bard charm didn't have a level cap nor restrictions on targets (ever heard of the legend of the bard Treesong who charmed CT in PoF?)

good times.

Astuce

Can a bard get passed the locked doors to heiro? I'm not too familiar with sebilis.
No, I haven't heard that legend, is it true?

[ZiggyTheMuss]

Can a bard get passed the locked doors to heiro? I'm not too familiar with sebilis.
No, I haven't heard that legend, is it true?

Yep, they could get summoned in.

[astuce999]

Can a bard get passed the locked doors to heiro? I'm not too familiar with sebilis.
No, I haven't heard that legend, is it true?

Locked doors has been answered, and for the legend, I'll point to the patch notes for April 17, 2000:

Corrected a bug with a new bard song that allowed them to charm anything, such as deities and dragons.

cheers,

Astuce

[Dugface]

Yeah my 30s were kind of a blur I spent that decade trying to kill trakanon on an empty server. Got him to 85% on try number 652 then the server got deleted after I was in urgent care of kidney problems. Not my proudest decade but I learned alot about myself

Lol at this.