Tunare agreement makes like a tree and leafs

[ajohnymous]

For the past 6 weeks or so the guilds Aftermath, Azure Guard, Core, and the PSG alliance had an agreement on the terms for engaging and killing Tunare, one of the few raid bosses that drops several best in slot items. With every other raid Target, the first guild to achieve an FTE message (First to Engage) has the "rights" to engage and attempt to kill that Target until it dies or the guild wipes. The vast majority of the time, it's a frantic race to the Target where the first guild to engage or pull it gets the kill. Tunare was a rare exception.

With Tunare, there's a window in which she can respawn. While in this window, guilds will have level 60 bards and rangers waiting outside the PoG zone in who will spawn in and run as fast as their legs will carry them over to Tunare to obtain an FTE. The guild to win this foot race has 12 hours to clear the entire zone (a requirement before engaging the Leafy God) and kill Tunare without interference from any other guild. If a guild wins one week, they must skip the following week to give the other guilds a shot. That was working out pretty well until Aftermath lost three weeks in a row.

The thing with Aftermath, is that they're used to winning. They're the top guild in the server, the most experienced players gravitate into the guild, and they typically kill the most raid targets each week. When things don't work out for them, they tend to push, bend, or propose new agreements and server rules which benefits them. It's understandable: the leadership makes decisions to ensure their guild continues to obtain the most raid loot. That wasn't happening with Tunare so they backed out of the agreement.

Their counter proposal was the same terms, but with the time to kill Tunare reduced from 12 hours down to 4. Clearing the entire zone takes some guilds all day to do, some less, you can probably guess which end of the spectrum Aftermath is on. Sometimes Tunare will respawn at 2am which makes clearing the entire zone and killing Tunare from 2 am - 6 am unrealistic for most guilds due to the understandable lack of interest to stay up all night playing a video game. Aftermath does not have this issue as their membership includes players from variety of time zones and people who have no issues losing sleep over Everquest.

What does this mean for the future of the Plane of Growth? Does it degrade into the familiar chaos of guilds intentionally and unintentionally training each other once Tunare pops? Does Tunare watch the Out of Character chat fill with toxicity and defamation as guilds attempt to leapfrog each other? Probably. Will the raiding guilds grow tired of this atmosphere and begrudgingly enter into discussion on a new agreement? That's what I'm hoping for, but recent history shows that without regular involvement and mediation from server staff, player agreements and guild-to-guild communication quickly deteriorates into what's always happened across the raid scene.

[aaezil]

I thought this was everquest not mario kart

[Phenyo]

No mention of rooted dragons which completely changes the dynamic of the raid scene.

shit post, would not recommend that anyone read it, cause i sure didnt.

[tylercanuck]

Sorry, but you don't deserve BIS loot when you can't defeat the encounter within a reasonable time frame.

[feniin]

Another example of AM getting salty about losing something they wanted and saying 'fuck it' to the rules they agreed to.

[ScottBerta]

So happy I don’t raid anymore... what an absolute shit show.

[Swish2]

Sorry, but you don't deserve BIS loot when you can't defeat the encounter within a reasonable time frame.

fun and game are two words that should still apply to when you sit down and open EQ.

[ajohnymous]

Sorry, but you don't deserve BIS loot when you can't defeat the encounter within a reasonable time frame.

I'm assuming that you're implying 4 hours is reasonable, and that if a guild cannot clear PoG in 4 hours, they do not deserve the loot she drops.

12 hours is reasonable for every guild who can kill Tunare. The only guild who can reliably clear in under 4 hours is Aftermath. It is not reasonable if only one of the guilds are able to adhere to the agreement.

[Ennewi]

The few times I've endured a PoG clear, it took roughly 6 hours which other players suggested was about average. If 12 hours is considered too much and 4 hours too little, than make a counteroffer and try to meet somewhere in the middle? Community boils down to compromise and no one is overjoyed with the outcome but interactions are still civil.

[Nexii]

Idk, giving Tunare to the guild of what ever one player zones the fastest (best cpu or ping) was kind of silly. That's always going to be the same player - AKA the reason scout became a rolloff, and ring 8, etc.

More true to classic 'first in force' would be the first guild that gets X players in the zone. Probably 4-6 groups for a raid like this. Any less and realistically you aren't going to finish the clear in time.

[aaezil]

Rotate pog

[Oleris]

Yeah, 12 hours to kill tunare... not 12 hours to start clearing which is dumb

[Baylan295]

Idk, giving Tunare to the guild of what ever one player zones the fastest (best cpu or ping) was kind of silly. That's always going to be the same player - AKA the reason scout became a rolloff, and ring 8, etc.

This is literally no less silly than any COTH racing target.

[Viscere]

Op needs a big big hug

[aaezil]

Idk, giving Tunare to the guild of what ever one player zones the fastest (best cpu or ping) was kind of silly. That's always going to be the same player - AKA the reason scout became a rolloff, and ring 8, etc.

More true to classic 'first in force' would be the first guild that gets X players in the zone. Probably 4-6 groups for a raid like this. Any less and realistically you aren't going to finish the clear in time.

Funny - i always thought zerg guilds with the most da idols/earrings and cheesy zone pulls winning most things was kind of silly. Footraces are silly as well!

[tylercanuck]

I'm assuming that you're implying 4 hours is reasonable, and that if a guild cannot clear PoG in 4 hours, they do not deserve the loot she drops.

12 hours is reasonable for every guild who can kill Tunare. The only guild who can reliably clear in under 4 hours is Aftermath. It is not reasonable if only one of the guilds are able to adhere to the agreement.

6-8 hours from the time of FTE is fair.

[tylercanuck]

Funny - i always thought zerg guilds with the most da idols/earrings and cheesy zone pulls winning most things was kind of silly. Footraces are silly as well!

AG won the zerg crown last night. They had ~135 for AoW.

[Castigate]

You're misrepresenting your entire position from the opening, which is just an act of bad faith.
The agreement was that you had 12 hours to BEGIN CLEARING, with up to an assumed 12 additional hours after that to actually kill Tunare due to the zones respawn time of 12 hours.
When Core FTE'd that last Tunare, and I believe with the previous winner as well? The winning guild went to bed and left her up all night rather than actually beginning a clear, that is what you're angry we weren't ok with, not 12 hours from winning the FTE race as you claimed.

[beargryllz]

Idk, giving Tunare to the guild of what ever one player zones the fastest (best cpu or ping) was kind of silly. That's always going to be the same player - AKA the reason scout became a rolloff, and ring 8, etc.

More true to classic 'first in force' would be the first guild that gets X players in the zone. Probably 4-6 groups for a raid like this. Any less and realistically you aren't going to finish the clear in time.

Why not just make the actual mob "Tunare" FTE, the way every single other 36789346789 mobs in this game work?

[Maschenny]

You're misrepresenting your entire position from the opening, which is just an act of bad faith.
The agreement was that you had 12 hours to BEGIN CLEARING, with up to an assumed 12 additional hours after that to actually kill Tunare due to the zones respawn time of 12 hours.
When Core FTE'd that last Tunare, and I believe with the previous winner as well? The winning guild went to bed and left her up all night rather than actually beginning a clear, that is what you're angry we weren't ok with, not 12 hours from winning the FTE race as you claimed.

Why is it a problem that the winning guild went to bed?

[Thugnuts]

Lame.

[Swish2]

Why not just make the actual mob "Tunare" FTE, the way every single other 36789346789 mobs in this game work?

Leapfrogs are assholes. I wouldn't raid lead a guild for hours clearing Growth only for some opportunists to come in and FTE.

[aaezil]

Leapfrogs are assholes. I wouldn't raid lead a guild for hours clearing Growth only for some opportunists to come in and FTE.

Do you play p99 blue? Everyone gets leapfrogged all the time every day. I mean some asshole guilds are worse than others about it.

[Baylan295]

You're misrepresenting your entire position from the opening, which is just an act of bad faith.
The agreement was that you had 12 hours to BEGIN CLEARING, with up to an assumed 12 additional hours after that to actually kill Tunare due to the zones respawn time of 12 hours.
When Core FTE'd that last Tunare, and I believe with the previous winner as well? The winning guild went to bed and left her up all night rather than actually beginning a clear, that is what you're angry we weren't ok with, not 12 hours from winning the FTE race as you claimed.

If the agreement was that you had 12 hours to begin clearing, what is wrong with FTEing and waiting a few hours to begin the clear?

Here's the answer: Aftermath lost and wants everyone to start clears at 4 am now.

[Castigate]

Why is it a problem that the winning guild went to bed?

Why would someone open an argument with a complete lie about the facts?
It was not a even 12 hour clear, but multiple 16-20 hour clears from time of FTE, and the opening post flat lied on that by omission.

Even in the footrace days the lockout was what, an hour? This is a 12 hour lockout to begin, an effective 24 hour lockout for the same exact thing, its stupid.

[DromalPhrenia]

The guild to win this foot race has 12 hours to clear the entire zone (a requirement before engaging the Leafy God) and kill Tunare without interference from any other guild.

This was what was believed to be the agreement. It was later clarified that no, the winning guild does not have to clear in 12 hours, they just have to begin fighting in the zone in 12 hours.

I'm no guild leader, but I would never agree to those terms. I actually feel like any player agreement like this is foolish; people who win ring 8 roll should do the turn-in within 1 hour of the dwarf woman spawning or else their win is forfeit.

[Nexii]

Funny - i always thought zerg guilds with the most da idols/earrings and cheesy zone pulls winning most things was kind of silly. Footraces are silly as well!

Yea, I've been saying for 2 years to root the dragons. Because it is. The activity of one player doesn't measure a guild

[enjchanter]

If the agreement was that you had 12 hours to begin clearing, what is wrong with FTEing and waiting a few hours to begin the clear?

Here's the answer: Aftermath lost and wants everyone to start clears at 4 am now.

[pogs4ever]

Why is it a problem that the winning guild went to bed?

[Kesselring]

Ah yea AM breaking the rules REEEEEE.

Definitely not backing out of a "player made" agreement because the people apart of it started lawyering in rules that was beyond intention.

[Baylan295]

Ah yea AM breaking the rules REEEEEE.

Definitely not backing out of a "player made" agreement because the people apart of it started lawyering in rules that was beyond intention.

Have you actually read the text of the agreement that Detoxx himself wrote up? I have.

[vorpal_raddish]

AG won the zerg crown last night. They had ~135 for AoW.

114.

[NextToTheGods]

I wonder who it was that wrote out the proposed agreement of that whichever raid entity wins FTE, wins the rights to pog as long as you start a clear within 12h. Must have been some gd casual scum :thunk:

[Jimjam]

Rotate pog

Didn't AM/AW once try to design a 'rotation' intended to lock all other forces out of growth. It back fired; Aw failed to qualify and some other forces unexpectedly succeeded in qualifying for the rotation so Am/Aw decided the rotation was silly and pulled the carpet out from it.

Am isn't pulling out the carpet from their own agreement again are they?

Was it was designed to lock other forces out of pixels but instead is assisting others getting those pixels and am is once again damage controlling a pixel cannon backfire?

[planarity]

Am isn't pulling out the carpet from their own agreement again are they?


Well yes, they are. Detoxx wrote the agreement, then when they failed to win the footrace, AM members got all angsty and chose to attack the 12h thing (which detoxx proposed and everyone agreed to. probably because AM also would prefer to do clear during normal human hours if they could), rather than the real issue which is that they feel entitled tunare and everything else by default, and feel like they've been cheated when they are beat fair and square even under a ruleset of their own choosing.

So, they angsted detoxx so much that he was forced to call his own agreement unreasonable, and to propose rules that would specifically favor AM and their ability to get 60 people in the middle of the night.

Does that help?

[Francois]

Ah yea AM breaking the rules REEEEEE.

Definitely not backing out of a "player made" agreement because the people apart of it started lawyering in rules that was beyond intention.

The intention of the 12 hour window to start was always to allow guilds to begin PoGrowth clears at a reasonable hour.

If someone told you otherwise, they're lying to you.

[Caball]

Mmm I love reading well summarized responses, can’t wait to see the insane rebuttal someone is bound post !! Yumyumyum

[Dolalin]

It's a player made agreement that was fair and working fine, should be enforced as-was by staff.

You shouldn't get to change the rules because you're a loser.

[Rimitto]

Rules and Agreements are just ways of getting others to do what you want. :)

Only the strong win without rules, is way of life. :rolleyes:

[Cen]

We should make it so Tulare may only be engaged at 9pm eastern by the guild who submitted the best 10 page essay on why they deserve to kill her that day. If you double space that shit you get a 1 month raid lockout for your guild.

Classic. Just the way the GMs did it.

[Legidias]

Look at historical raid agreements, and you'll find AM has been the one to say "lol nah, we arent winning 9/10 of these so Im just gonna back out of the agreeement so it'll be 9.5/10"

[kjs86z]

Tunare / PoG is the only instance of P99 raiding where a rotation is the best possible option.

Forced off-peak-time clears with low numbers is outright cancer.

Get off your fucking high horses already and just be normal for one time in your miserable elf sim lives. Rotate. End of thread.

[Nexii]

Didn't AM/AW once try to design a 'rotation' intended to lock all other forces out of growth. It back fired; Aw failed to qualify and some other forces unexpectedly succeeded in qualifying for the rotation so Am/Aw decided the rotation was silly and pulled the carpet out from it.

Am isn't pulling out the carpet from their own agreement again are they?

Was it was designed to lock other forces out of pixels but instead is assisting others getting those pixels and am is once again damage controlling a pixel cannon backfire?

Yea there was a growth rotation between AM and AWK back then. However interest in clearing POG was never that high until Tunare went from 0-3 items to 2-4 items. Essentially a doubling in reward from 1.5 on average to 3. AM did POG like once a month at most in that era and AWK not at all. It was free for others to do most weeks but no one wanted to do it for the amount of reward.

[Nexii]

Tunare / PoG is the only instance of P99 raiding where a rotation is the best possible option.

Forced off-peak-time clears with low numbers is outright cancer.

Get off your fucking high horses already and just be normal for one time in your miserable elf sim lives. Rotate. End of thread.

It sure is. Being one of two clerics for an off hour clear is pretty miserable.

There used to be more rotations but Awakened abused them for so long that AM as a whole leans against them now...a lot of the newer membership doesn't see the benefits. Plus with the raid scene population exploding by a factor of 3 over the last year, there's fewer pixels than ever to go around. That's mainly what's fuelling the current paradigm of harder competition

[FatherSioux]

♫ When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius♫

[Jimjam]

Yea there was a growth rotation between AM and AWK back then. However interest in clearing POG was never that high until Tunare went from 0-3 items to 2-4 items. Essentially a doubling in reward from 1.5 on average to 3. AM did POG like once a month at most in that era and AWK not at all. It was free for others to do most weeks but no one wanted to do it for the amount of reward.

A clear + Tunare fight is something that is fun to do like twice a year (though from what I understand the leashing changes mean a full clear isn't strictly necessary?). As you say there is enough Tunare to go round. It's a just shame that forces large enough to kill Tunare are willing to leap frog someone else's clear. It's orders of magnitude worse than leapfrogging, say, SolB.

[Nexii]

A clear + Tunare fight is something that is fun to do like twice a year (though from what I understand the leashing changes mean a full clear isn't strictly necessary?). As you say there is enough Tunare to go round. It's a just shame that forces large enough to kill Tunare are willing to leap frog someone else's clear. It's orders of magnitude worse than leapfrogging, say, SolB.

Tunare is killed every week since the patch to increase her loot. Within 24h or less.

Tactics...well the GMs haven't clarified

[Jimjam]

I maintain only 2 out of those 52 times are permitted to be fun.

[Dillusional]

The agreement was a great deal for paradigm shift and a terrible deal for Aftermath. Why would anyone expect anything different than Aftermath to backing out and then Paradigm Shift being salty about it?

Paradigm Shift could've done a lot of stuff with this earthquake. I heard they went straight to VP like and did their same old thing. Get out there and get some guys. But please refrain from accusations and abuse in ooc, blatant disregard for the rules and ridiculous trains/agroe when your players are in places they shouldn't be.

[rezzie]

The agreement was proposed to try it out for two weeks to see how it worked.
Guilds tried it out; Aftermath had concerns about how it was being used.
No agreement could be reached on revised terms.
Core/BG/AG attempted a snipe of Tunare after Aftermath spent 6 hours clearing the zone.
AG makes an RnF to remind everyone who the real bad guys are.

[Molitoth]

Paradigm Shift could've done a lot of stuff with this earthquake. I heard they went straight to VP like and did their same old thing.

If PS would have "Did their same old thing." Then they would have gotten yet another CT kill.

PS focused on VP for the first time in a LONG time. You are Dillusional.

[Dillusional]

Didn't AM/AW once try to design a 'rotation' intended to lock all other forces out of growth. It back fired; Aw failed to qualify and some other forces unexpectedly succeeded in qualifying for the rotation so Am/Aw decided the rotation was silly and pulled the carpet out from it.

Am isn't pulling out the carpet from their own agreement again are they?

Was it was designed to lock other forces out of pixels but instead is assisting others getting those pixels and am is once again damage controlling a pixel cannon backfire?

What? This just never happened. There was very little interest in clearing growth even when you could guarantee two good loots by respawning Tunare until she was visibly holding two things. It used to take Rampage/Awakened and Aftermath 10-12 hours before the order of killing stuff was polished.

After they made what Tunare was holding non-visible, interest in killing her dropped close to zero. Awakened decided getting basically nothing 50% of the time after spending hours clearing growth wasn't worth it.

Only recently has interest peaked back up again and the competitive Tunare meta is just establishing itself now.

[ajohnymous]

AG makes an RnF to remind everyone who the real bad guys are.



This is not a rants and flames post. It’s not an attack on any guild. I’m not in AG, Core, or PS. It is an accounting of what the Tunare agreement was, how it was dissolved, and why. Most players on this server have no idea how the raid scene works so I will be writing posts like this, regardless of who you personally feel is being “attacked,” in order to provide insight.

[DromalPhrenia]

You got several details wrong, starting with the first sentence, so maybe your insight is less valuable than you think?

[Dillusional]

If PS would have "Did their same old thing." Then they would have gotten yet another CT kill.

PS focused on VP for the first time in a LONG time. You are Dillusional.

Delusional, maybe. Out of the loop definitely. Last time I talked to someone who was considering leaving PS they basically told me "well, my main already has all the VP gear I need". So assumptions were made. Nevertheless, PS didn't show up for any of the "new content" like kittens boldly did and this thread is goofy because Aftermath was able to casually stroll into PoG the next morning and start clearing uncontested.... until core/Ag showed up later threatening to snipe it lol.

[Dillusional]

Oh man this wasn't rants and flames, whoops. This thread totally has a rants and flames title.

[rezzie]

I will be writing posts like this, regardless of who you personally feel is being “attacked,” in order to provide insight.

Here's some insight: raiding at the top-tier is nowhere near as toxic as the forums, especially RnF, make it out to be. Using the forums to gauge the state of the raid scene is not going to give you an accurate picture.

There's disputes and arguments and it's not always happy families. When there is a bitter dispute then inter-guild communication breaks down for a while. Animosity grows and dissipates.

On the whole guilds tend to play nice together. I'd argue the vast majority of players across those guilds have a fun time winning top-tier content, and pretty much everyone has friends in other guilds.

If it was a toxic cesspit the 300-400 players who actively raid each cycle would not bother.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Clearing the entire zone takes some guilds all day to do, some less, you can probably guess which end of the spectrum Aftermath is on.

huehue

[DromalPhrenia]

On the whole guilds tend to play nice together. I'd argue the vast majority of players across those guilds have a fun time winning top-tier content, and pretty much everyone has friends in other guilds.

Buddy, I don't even have friends in my OWN guild.

[Baylan295]

The agreement was a great deal for paradigm shift and a terrible deal for Aftermath. Why would anyone expect anything different than Aftermath to backing out and then Paradigm Shift being salty about it?

Paradigm Shift could've done a lot of stuff with this earthquake. I heard they went straight to VP like and did their same old thing. Get out there and get some guys. But please refrain from accusations and abuse in ooc, blatant disregard for the rules and ridiculous trains/agroe when your players are in places they shouldn't be.

Last I checked, PS killed two ToV dragons during the quake, including the unkillable Gozzrem. COTHing into a many-hours-long shitshow in ToV late in PS’s primetime isn’t a smart call.

And accusations and abuse in OOC? I’m the one that got told to kill myself on Friday night. Pretty sure there was a RnF about that.

[Dillusional]

Last I checked, PS killed two ToV dragons during the quake, including the unkillable Gozzrem. COTHing into a many-hours-long shitshow in ToV late in PS’s primetime isn’t a smart call.

And accusations and abuse in OOC? I’m the one that got told to kill myself on Friday night. Pretty sure there was a RnF about that.

Man, I thought this was rants and flames when I posted that stuff! :o GG on unkillable kill.

[Molitoth]

"Last time I talked to someone who was considering leaving PS they basically told me "well, my main already has all the VP gear I need

-People who are pixel mongers will leave smaller guilds as expected, and most of us know VP isn't really about the quality of loot as most of it is just toys. I think most of PS had drama free fun during this quake and that's what matters.


PS didn't show up for any of the "new content"

-PS/CSG killed Telk (Why was this left up?) and Gozz (Rumored as unkillable?)

/shrug

[rezzie]

I’m the one that got told to kill myself on Friday night. Pretty sure there was a RnF about that.

I guild kicked the applicant who said that about 5s after he /ooc'd that, fwiw.

[DromalPhrenia]

that guy got guildremoved for saying that heinous shit so your ooc can be forgiven since it had a positive result... THIS time!

it is cruel and dangerous and messed up to tell someone to kill themselves. i prefer to tell them to go home and be a family man, just like my hero, guile from street fighter


EDIT: gozz was rooted according to patch notes, either rogean was trolling, made an error, or it got changed when he realized a rooting (and thus unpushable) CH dragon would be the worst thing ever

[feniin]

He was rooted, just differently than you expected.

[DromalPhrenia]

it was more fun when i thought we'd need to get the whole server together to dps him down :(

[Baylan295]

I guild kicked the applicant who said that about 5s after he /ooc'd that, fwiw.

I know bud - and I appreciated the act. You and I (and a lot of folks from AM) get along just fine. We often disagree or have different perspectives, but you know I respect you and most of your team.

[Francois]

The agreement was proposed to try it out for two weeks to see how it worked.
Guilds tried it out; Aftermath had concerns about how it was being used.
No agreement could be reached on revised terms.
Core/BG/AG attempted a snipe of Tunare after Aftermath spent 6 hours clearing the zone.
AG makes an RnF to remind everyone who the real bad guys are.


I like reading how you guys see this situation. It's definitely interesting. I thought i'd respond point by point to make this easier to read.


You're right, the rotation was in it's infancy. We were foolish to not put an end date on it, or a punishment for those that choose to break it without warning for opportunistic reasons. I'm a bit naive sometimes and I hoped it wouldn't become a race to the bottom.

Aftermath's concerns were that they felt they could get more Tunare's than other guilds because of their numbers.

DetoxxYesterday at 8:41 PM
We have 0 problem starting clears at 9pm and then killing tunare at 4am when you all cant. This is not in your best interest I assure you

It was also suggested (and denied by AM) that they were also frustrated that they were losing the FTE races.


I'm sure not everyone is aware of what was going on in our conversations, but you're right that we couldn't come to an agreement. I would describe AM's negotiation style as "take it or leave it". I can't speak for other guild leaders, but what Core wants is the opportunity to raid PoGrowth at a reasonable hour. While we have been successful in PoGrowth lately (thanks in large part to AG), we also don't want to block smaller guilds from experiencing the zone. The solution could be either competitive (most likely FTE races again) or a rotation. What we don't want is for there to be a mechanism that favors zerg guilds.

AM's clear took 9 hours by my count. I keep seeing AM give lower numbers than reality, which seems strange considering the argument here hinges on time invested. You're right though, Core would have engaged Tunare had AM chosen to not agree to the temporary rotation while we come up with a real one.

There's a RnF post made by Dannyl (an AM officer) titled "AG leadership giving up on all rules in ToV". Most threads like this one and the RnF threads don't really serve a purpose other than to let people vent frustrations. We're all guilty of it (including me right now). The alternative is a RnF ban, and that's just not as fun.



Thanks for posting. I don't think really anyone was happy with yesterday's situation. I hope that we can find a decent solution to this problem.

[FatherSioux]

Francois always comes off as the reasonable actor in these discussions. Maybe he’s baboozling us all.

[tylercanuck]

Francois always comes off as the reasonable actor in these discussions. Maybe he’s baboozling us all.

Not really. He just admitted his intention to snipe Tunare.

I assume that makes AM's successful Doze snipe all the more satisfying.

[Dillusional]

Hey Francois, much respect. Obviously I'm not involved in decision making in any way or even on the radar of the people who are, but I'd like to express my own biased point of view.

The Situation:
Guild A has 10 neckbeards
Guild B has 90 neckbeards.

The question:

Why should Guild B settle for an agreement that nets them 50% of the pixels available when they can leverage their numbers?


Thoughts:

If a meta is forced upon guild B that doesn't reward zerg, then obviously it has to adapt and get lean. But Velious in general, with its large number of raid targets with 16 hour windows, rewards the zerg strategy if your goal is to kill the most raid targets each week (though not necessarily net the most pixels per player). In an agreement where Guild A gets 10% of the loot , they aren't losing. Each player is getting the same amount of loot proportionally...... and if Tunare only happens to be in window during peak hours 20-30% of the time (obviously making these numbers up)..... things seem to work out just fine.....

[Francois]

Not really. He just admitted his intention to snipe Tunare.

I assume that makes AM's successful Doze snipe all the more satisfying.

Doze happened before PoGrowth. At that point I was foolishly operating under the assumption that AM wouldn't do that because of As usual, we encourage guilds to work together on raid target selections. Leapfrogging, while technically not against the rules, is still an asshole move.

But you're right, i'm not always rational.

[Klem]

if your going to fte a mob... you should start clearing asap. dont wait for handouts, aint nothing classic about it. Start the moment you get fte on any mob. quit crying.

[Baylan295]

if your going to fte a mob... you should start clearing asap. dont wait for handouts, aint nothing classic about it. Start the moment you get fte on any mob. quit crying.

The point is that the relevant guilds made an agreement. If clears must start immediately, PoG will turn into fear and no one will ever kill Tunare again.

[Francois]

Hey Francois, much respect.

Love you too buddy. Was just watching one of our old Vulak videos and saw your name pop up. Those were lovely times.


The Situation:
Guild A has 10 neckbeards
Guild B has 90 neckbeards.

The question:

Why should Guild B settle for an agreement that nets them 50% of the pixels available when they can leverage their numbers?


AG & Core have been doing Tunare together recently. Combined our numbers aren't lower than AMs. I don't know how many people PS & friends have on their clears, but I'd imagine it's a large number as well.

So a more accurate representation of our current situation would be...

Guild A: 100 neckbeards
Guild B: 100 neckbeards
Guild C: 100 neckbeards

So if you would like to distribute loot evenly, then a 3 guild (or team-up) system wouldn't be a problem. When one guild believes they deserve more than the others the system starts to fall apart. I understand that AM thinks they deserve more than the other guilds, they have enjoyed that position for many months now.

I personally would like a system that allows smaller guilds to give the zone a shot. To me, PoGrowth is one of the few places left on P99 where you can actually hang out with your entire guild and face PvE content.

If a meta is forced upon guild B that doesn't reward zerg, then obviously it has to adapt and get lean.

I would love this. I think other guilds might have more fun when content isn't trivialized by throwing numbers at it.

I don't fault AM for growing so big. They keep recruitment open to prevent apps from going to the competition and they don't have to rely so heavily on a small group of people to make plays.

[Oleris]

I just think there was a mix up on the agreement. Everyone in the guild thought it was you had 12 hours to kill tunare once you get the FTE. This seemed reasonable as sometimes it took 9-10 hours to do a clear.

All of a sudden it turned into 12 hours to START clearing and 12 hours after that to kill Tunare.

[jpetrick]

I just think there was a mix up on the agreement. Everyone in the guild thought it was you had 12 hours to kill tunare once you get the FTE. This seemed reasonable as sometimes it took 9-10 hours to do a clear.

All of a sudden it turned into 12 hours to START clearing and 12 hours after that to kill Tunare.

No it was always 12 hours to start. Honestly the Tunare agreement was a fair one. My only change was to move the starting point to inside growth. I don't agree with how Detoxx handled it. Should have just told the peanut gallery to get on a bard if they want Tunare.

[Francois]

I just think there was a mix up on the agreement. Everyone in the guild thought it was you had 12 hours to kill tunare once you get the FTE. This seemed reasonable as sometimes it took 9-10 hours to do a clear.

All of a sudden it turned into 12 hours to START clearing and 12 hours after that to kill Tunare.

Detoxx (the leader of AM) was the one who posted the agreement. We also talked several times about the intent of the 12 hours.

It was to make sure that PoGrowth didn't devolve into people having to start clears in the middle of the night.

Here is the original agreement

Tunare Agreement:

Tunare cannot be killed by the same guild 2 spawns in a row. If you kill her by yourself, you must skip her the next week. If killed by more than 1 guild (this means the Clear and/or the kill are done by multiple guilds) any and all guilds are locked out for the next week.

In the event of an earthquake, the guild(s) that were locked out from killing her persists.

There is a time limit of 12 hours to START the clear from when she spawns. If a clear has not begun in 12 hours, she becomes FFA.

We will test this out for a few weeks and see how it works. Any issues with it can be brought up here

Tunare FTE Agreement: Tunare will be a foot race on spawn, with the first to get Tunare yellow text "winning" the rights to the clear. Racers must start outside PoG, no COTHing. If she's not dead 12 hours after the initial FTE she goes FFA. The back-to-back agreement above applies to the guild(s) that win the initial FTE.

Here is the updated agreement which was done to remove some ambiguity surrounding the 12 hours.

Tunare cannot be killed by the same guild 2 spawns in a row. If you kill her by yourself, you must skip her the next week. If killed by more than 1 guild (this means the Clear and/or the kill are done by multiple guilds) any and all guilds are locked out for the next week.

In the event of an earthquake, the guild(s) that were locked out from killing her persists.

There is a time limit of 12 hours to start the clear from when she spawns. If a clear has not begun in 12 hours, she becomes FFA.

Tunare will be a foot race on spawn, with the first to get Tunare yellow text "winning" the rights to the clear. Racers must start outside PoG, no COTHing. The back-to-back agreement above applies to the guild(s) that win the initial FTE.

We will test this out for a few weeks and see how it works. Any issues with it can be brought up here

[Castigate]

Francois always comes off as the reasonable actor in these discussions. Maybe he’s baboozling us all.

While I agree that in general I've always liked Franswa's posts and seen him as a reasonable person on the forums, and he's probably right on some of his points and the average AM member didn't really know about it, he just admitted to his willingness to steal 9 hours of work from any guild, and on top of that use it as a negotiation tactic, to effectively hold a gun to his opponents head and force his way.

You may have missed that part but that is exactly what happened yesterday, and he had 100+ people from Core/BG/AG willing to go along with it. Had the roles been reversed I know that I would not only have not taken part, but also started planning my guildremove.

[Baylan295]

Detoxx (the leader of AM) was the one who posted the agreement. We also talked several times about the intent of the 12 hours.

It was to make sure that PoGrowth didn't devolve into people having to start clears in the middle of the night.

Here is the original agreement



Here is the updated agreement which was done to remove some ambiguity surrounding the 12 hours.


You know, if every player made agreement regarding raid targets was posted on the forums it might result in some clarity rather than confusion on what is agreed upon.

[Klem]

if you cant kill a mob on your own.. don't go in period. kill minis.. get out... or merge and solve your problems. Always bitching about handouts and agreements that shouldn't be there in the first place. Don't leapfrog a guild that's cleared the entire place or spent hours clearing. Tov is entirely different, if you try to "claim a dragon from ent," kill 2 mobs, while another kills 3.. thats competition. Don't cry wolf if someone goes after the same mob as in this case. Two guild sitting at Vulak while another guild kills the last dragon is a real "leapfrog" and again asking for a free hand outs.
AG pretends to be handicap but they are not, why doesn't AG attempt Vyemm while Core takes Vulak? don't trust each other? stop expecting to always leach off AM.

[Karthil]

While I agree that in general I've always liked Franswa's posts and seen him as a reasonable person on the forums, and he's probably right on some of his points and the average AM member didn't really know about it, he just admitted to his willingness to steal 9 hours of work from any guild, and on top of that use it as a negotiation tactic, to effectively hold a gun to his opponents head and force his way.

I don't personally feel good about either side of this argument, but if we're going to get anywhere we have to all be honest with ourselves about our roles in the matter.

AM saying that they no longer agree to the rules they drafted and signed onto and then just going into PoG to clear Tunare without a new one in place is not exactly something that puts them on the moral high ground here. The other guilds coming into PoG to contest Tunare was to show AM what an agreement-free PoG would look like. Why should they just let AM have a contested mob when AM *chose* to withdraw from the agreement?

Would it have been lame to snipe a Tunare? Yeah, which is why we have the agreement that AM backed out of. That they chose to then go clear PoG *before* a new agreement was in place is what started the whole showdown in the first place. To then say that the other guilds were holding a gun to AM's head in the negotiating process is disingenuous to say the least.

Many guilds put time and effort into clearing PoF in order to kill CT, who then gets sniped by another guild because he is a contested mob. With AM dissolving the agreement meant to allow guilds that put the time into clearing PoG a priority chance at Tunare, they essentially turned Tunare into exactly that: a contested mob. Then they said don't bother us while we're killing this contested mob without an agreement in place; we'll figure out a new agreement later.

AM has a long history of saying "let's play on for now and figure it out later," which I think a lot of other guilds are frustrated with.

Nobody acted perfectly here, but I don't think you're discussing it in good faith if you pain Franswa as the villain of the piece; you can't "steal" something if the agreement put in place to secure ownership rights is torpedoed. That mob becomes contested just like any other.

[pogs4ever]

just Agree to 24 hours.

[aaezil]

Agree that you’re all hopelessly addicted to pixels

[tylercanuck]

Agree that you’re all hopelessly addicted to pixels

I think you are too considering your post count and infatuation with Detoxx.

[aaezil]

I think you are too considering your post count and infatuation with Detoxx.

Meh. I play/raid casually maybe once twice a week. Don’t think I have the bug that bad. Certainly never leapfrogged or lawyerquested anyone becuase i needed pixels so badly.

[DromalPhrenia]

AM's clear took 9 hours by my count. I keep seeing AM give lower numbers than reality, which seems strange considering the argument here hinges on time invested. You're right though, Core would have engaged Tunare had AM chosen to not agree to the temporary rotation while we come up with a real one.

AM's clear yesterday definitely took far longer than it typically does. Some part of that was the stall that happened when other guilds rolled in as a show of force, some part of it was far lower numbers than usual, and I would assume some things went wrong as well (I wasn't there so I don't know the particulars).

I have been at clears that were more like 1/3rd of that time. If it's any consolation about all of this, 9 hours were spent to get some doodoo ass loot. PoG is pretty fun imo but 9 hours is crapola. I want that 2x earring + EON Tunare instead :(

[Heebs13]

Why is this hard?

Does it really matter whether you have 12 hours to start the clear or 12 hours to finish the clear? If you lost the FTE race at 11pm, what does it change for your guild if we have to start at 6am vs having to start before 11am, other than 'TEE HEE NOW THEY HAVE TO WAKE UP EARLY'? By the same token, what does it do for your guild to make us start a clear at 11pm other than again, depriving another guild of sleep?

Is the goal here to make an agreement that makes PoGrowth LESS miserable, or a shitty contest that benefits the biggest neckbeards?

[Francois]

If it's any consolation about all of this, 9 hours were spent to get some doodoo ass loot.

Na, i'm never rooting for people to get garbage loot. Sounded like you guys got a nice little mixed bag of stuff. I've always wanted the rapier as a stat weapon.

[Not_Mikeo]

If you're guild is filled with people on the take without jobs its easy to start a POG clear at 3am. If you feel this entitles you to all the pixels and you want to be a twat about it, you make it difficult for other guilds to do things.

God forbid people take a few of the things in the game and not shit all over them.

Guild backs out of agreement to keep PoG civil. Complains when other guilds show them what a shitshow it will be:
https://i.imgur.com/fLvYmms.png

https://i.imgur.com/zogEhSC.png

[DromalPhrenia]

Why is this hard?

Does it really matter whether you have 12 hours to start the clear or 12 hours to finish the clear? If you lost the FTE race at 11pm, what does it change for your guild if we have to start at 6am vs having to start before 11am, other than 'TEE HEE NOW THEY HAVE TO WAKE UP EARLY'? By the same token, what does it do for your guild to make us start a clear at 11pm other than again, depriving another guild of sleep?

Is the goal here to make an agreement that makes PoGrowth LESS miserable, or a shitty contest that benefits the biggest neckbeards?

For one thing, it pushes Tunare's death (potentially) a full day later. Every time this happens, you've now kept everyone else waiting an extra day. For the reason of "we don't want to do this yet." PoG can't be cleared without hours of killing, so the spawn time of Tunare will always be pushed back a bit, but that's because of the basic mechanics of clearing the zone of all mobs, not because some people decided they had better things to do.

For another thing, it gives you the option of either raiding relatively soon after spawn, or having Tunare sniped by another guild. We (and other guilds) still have a decent shot at Tunare if you screw up enough times or if your guild can't or won't show up in force in what I consider a reasonable time frame.

Engaging a mob for FTE that you aren't prepared to kill seems absurd to me. The only reason I would want an agreement in the first place is because PoG is a long crawl and no one wants PoG turning into an ever worse fear.

[Molitoth]

Why is this hard?

Does it really matter whether you have 12 hours to start the clear or 12 hours to finish the clear? If you lost the FTE race at 11pm, what does it change for your guild if we have to start at 6am vs having to start before 11am, other than 'TEE HEE NOW THEY HAVE TO WAKE UP EARLY'? By the same token, what does it do for your guild to make us start a clear at 11pm other than again, depriving another guild of sleep?

Is the goal here to make an agreement that makes PoGrowth LESS miserable, or a shitty contest that benefits the biggest neckbeards?

It's really as simple as: AM has the members to clear PoG in the middle of the night, and the rest of the server doesn't. AM is trying to use that to their advantage. (can't blame them I suppose, as they are extremely dedicated players.)

Nobody can argue that fact, or else there wouldn't even be this conversation.
There is nothing wrong with taking 12 hours, as nobody else will even be in the zone until Tunare pops again. (Guilds aren't clearing PoG trash for loot)

[xplit871]

Omg pushes tunare repop back a whole day! God forbid, my pixel addiction may go into withdrawal!!! SMH

[Erati]

Engaging a mob for FTE that you aren't prepared to kill seems absurd to me.

...except when there was an agreement crafted that allows for that specific special circumstance to occur only for PoG/Tunare.

Not sure why some people are ignoring what was initially agreed upon and laughing about members of ced agreement following how it was written up.

Your argument is just as ‘absurd’ as asking a guild (During 1Hr FTE locks) why they are waiting til min 59 to pull their locked in mob...the answer is because they choose to.

[rezzie]

AM has the members to clear PoG in the middle of the night, and the rest of the server doesn't. AM is trying to use that to their advantage. (can't blame them I suppose, as they are extremely dedicated players.)

Aftermath has been regularly killing around 4 out of every 5 Tunares over the past year.

The loot table was fixed and she became a much more valuable mob; it was clear she was going to become a contested target.

Aftermath did agree to a three slot rotation which would leave us with 1/3 Tunares, down from the 4/5 we had grown used to - pretty substantial.

Given that only three raiding entities have actually killed Tunare in the past year (Aftermath, PSG, Core/BG), everyone that had done a clear+kill would have a slot.

I don't think it's fair to say what we proposed was entirely unreasonable/greedy/outrageously pixel-lusty.

[Heebs13]

For one thing, it pushes Tunare's death (potentially) a full day later. Every time this happens, you've now kept everyone else waiting an extra day. For the reason of "we don't want to do this yet." PoG can't be cleared without hours of killing, so the spawn time of Tunare will always be pushed back a bit, but that's because of the basic mechanics of clearing the zone of all mobs, not because some people decided they had better things to do.

For another thing, it gives you the option of either raiding relatively soon after spawn, or having Tunare sniped by another guild. We (and other guilds) still have a decent shot at Tunare if you screw up enough times or if your guild can't or won't show up in force in what I consider a reasonable time frame.

Engaging a mob for FTE that you aren't prepared to kill seems absurd to me. The only reason I would want an agreement in the first place is because PoG is a long crawl and no one wants PoG turning into an ever worse fear.

Pushing the spawn back potentially an entire day is the price you pay for not having to clear the zone at 3am. You have to give something up in order to make the game less shitty. If the agreement purposely makes it so only Aftermath is capable of downing Tunare if she spawns late, eventually she will spawn late (or be purposely downed later to push her window later) so that Tunare is more or less an Aftermath-only target. No one but Aftermath is going to agree to that, thus no agreement, thus FFA, thus guilds threatening to contest Tunare as per FFA rules. That's maximum shitty.

I'd even be willing to lose the "no 2x in a row" clause, which gives an advantage to the number 1 guild on the server, to keep the 12 hour clause. No one wants to do Tunare at 3am.

[Erati]

Aftermath has been regularly killing around 4 out of every 5 Tunares over the past year.

The loot table was fixed and she became a much more valuable mob; it was clear she was going to become a contested target.

Aftermath did agree to a three slot rotation which would leave us with 1/3 Tunares, down from the 4/5 we had grown used to - pretty substantial.

Given that only three raiding entities have actually killed Tunare in the past year (Aftermath, PSG, Core/BG), everyone that had done a clear+kill would have a slot.

I don't think it's fair to say what we proposed was entirely unreasonable/greedy/outrageously pixel-lusty.


Telling other guilds what they can or cant do is somewhat greedy, yes.

Having sustained success on a mob does not equate to “owning” mob rights. Sure you have the strongest negotiating position in this case (24 hour capable pog clear) but that doesnt bestow mob ownership upon you.

You said it yourself, she simply was not that contested due to loot table, there was no other ‘magic’ to your made up 4 out of 5 Tunare stat that is suppose to show ownership.

[aaezil]

Sounds a lot like “weve been killing a mob a lot so it belongs to us”

[Klem]

Many guilds put time and effort into clearing PoF in order to kill CT, who then gets sniped by another guild because he is a contested mob.

Dont compare POG to Fear lol. you can engage ct and handle adds at the same time in most cases be done in under an hour. not the case with a pog, who are you trying to fool here?

[Dolalin]

Note to staff: tolerating assholes kills servers. Just stop doing it.

[rezzie]

Telling other guilds what they can or cant do is somewhat greedy, yes.

We weren't telling other guilds what they could or couldn't do. There were multiple options on the table being discussed amongst all guilds present.

I'd argue showing up with a 100+ man force to try and snipe a Tunare after an 8* hour clear in an effort to force a single guild's hand is trying to dictate terms far harder than an actual discussion in a joint channel.

Having sustained success on a mob does not equate to “owning” mob rights. Sure you have the strongest negotiating position in this case (24 hour capable pog clear) but that doesnt bestow mob ownership upon you.

Absolutely agree with you on this. Tunare is not "ours" to hand out. We agreed to drop from 4/5 kills to 1/3 kills, giving equal slots to all entities who had cleared and killed her.

Azure Guard/Blood Guard/Core/Loramin could have all zoned into PoG many times over the past year and had a go; she sat up for days/weeks at times.

[Erati]

Tunares loot was broken, no one wanted to waste peoples time to potentially get three BPs as a reward. Only pure neckbeards bother w this sort of thing regularly.

The reason Im mentioning this is to toss water on your “giving up 4/5 Tunare down to 1/3” like its charity. The mob was basically uncontested (your words) so in a vacuum had Tunares loot been fixed during the period of time you were referring too, AMs Tunare share would not have been 4/5 at all bc she would be contested and contested hard (see display of force yestetday).

I understand your angle, its just not a truthful one as its based in a skewed reality where your statistic is coming from when Tunare wasnt a desired mob.

[rezzie]

Okay let me reword it.

We agreed to a rotation that would have seen our share of Tunare loot drop from 4/5 to 1/3.

3 entities have cleared + killed, we agreed to an equal rotation for all those entities.

Not seeing the charity or unreasonableness.

[aaezil]

Azure Guard/Blood Guard/Core/Loramin could have all zoned into PoG many times over the past year and had a go; she sat up for days/weeks at times.


Lol rip loramin

[rezzie]

TOnly pure neckbeards bother w this sort of thing regularly.

Well, the other argument is "we just want to see the content, casuals never get to see the content".

The content was there, and uncontested, and sitting up for days/weeks for people to experience it at a conveniently-scheduled time.

So what is it, you're in it for the loot or to experience the content?

[Molitoth]

Okay let me reword it.

We agreed to a rotation that would have seen our share of Tunare loot drop from 4/5 to 1/3.

3 entities have cleared + killed, we agreed to an equal rotation for all those entities.

Not seeing the charity or unreasonableness.

So why has this agreement changed? It seemed to be working fine with everyone getting 1/3.

[DromalPhrenia]

So why has this agreement changed? It seemed to be working fine with everyone getting 1/3.
IIRC, this player agreement was turned down before ever being tried. The one that was tried was the footrace + 24 hours to kill.

[rezzie]

So why has this agreement changed? It seemed to be working fine with everyone getting 1/3.

The proposal wasn't agreed to by some of the other guilds so it was never formalised. Had other guilds agreed to it, Aftermath was on board.

There were a few other alternative proposals, but nothing that we could all agree to.

[Heebs13]

We weren't telling other guilds what they could or couldn't do. There were multiple options on the table being discussed amongst all guilds present.

I'd argue showing up with a 100+ man force to try and snipe a Tunare after an 8* hour clear in an effort to force a single guild's hand is trying to dictate terms far harder than an actual discussion in a joint channel.



Absolutely agree with you on this. Tunare is not "ours" to hand out. We agreed to drop from 4/5 kills to 1/3 kills, giving equal slots to all entities who had cleared and killed her.

Azure Guard/Blood Guard/Core/Loramin could have all zoned into PoG many times over the past year and had a go; she sat up for days/weeks at times.

I can't speak for the other guilds involved, but I know AG frequently chose not to go for Tunare because we were specifically afraid that we would spend 8 hours clearing only to have her sniped, which is exactly what was being threatened to happen last night. I agree that this would be terrible no matter who the guild getting sniped happens to be.

Personally, I really don't want to argue over who wronged who or he said she said. I want to figure out a reasonable agreement that allows PoG to not be a nightmare. I think the 12 hour lockout agreement does exactly that, and I think we should do everything we can to NOT lose that agreement.

If we need to tweak it a bit here or there to make it better, by all means. But bringing the window from 12 hours to 4 hours really screws guilds that aren't capable of clearing PoG when she spawns at midnight, and you know this. No one is going to agree to something like that.

Would guild leaders be cool with keeping the 12 hour rule in return for dropping the "no 2x in a row" rule? I feel like that lets Aftermath compete more while at the same time preserving the ability to not have to do midnight clears for other guilds that don't want to raid PoG when most people sleep.

[Karthil]

Dont compare POG to Fear lol. you can engage ct and handle adds at the same time in most cases be done in under an hour. not the case with a pog, who are you trying to fool here?

I hate to be that person, but you really need to read the post and not snipe out pieces out of context.

I'm not trying to say they are or should be the same. I'm saying that without an agreement in place, you can't expect people not to treat PoG like Fear in that it doesn't matter who gets the kite or aoes the most mobs, anyone can FTE and kill CT/Tunare.

The whole reason there was and should be an agreement is because nobody wants PoG to be like Fear but 1000x worse.

[Baylan295]

Dont compare POG to Fear lol. you can engage ct and handle adds at the same time in most cases be done in under an hour. not the case with a pog, who are you trying to fool here?

I would personally like to see a guild deal with a focuser while engaged and fighting Tunare.

[Molitoth]

I thought the footrace thing was kinda weird....

1/3 rotation is perfect imo.

[Heebs13]

I thought the footrace thing was kinda weird....

1/3 rotation is perfect imo.

A lot of people hate rotations though. Plus, if there's another guild/alliance that wants to do Tunare, it leaves them out.

[rezzie]

I can't speak for the other guilds involved, but I know AG frequently chose not to go for Tunare because we were specifically afraid that we would spend 8 hours clearing only to have her sniped, which is exactly what was being threatened to happen last night. I agree that this would be terrible no matter who the guild getting sniped happens to be.

The threat of Tunare snipes was briefly discussed between guild leaders/officers weeks ago - with AG/AM/BG/Core/PS present - and the consensus seemed to be that it was shitty move that nobody wanted, and an implication that none of us would.

It was surprising to see it being used as a bargaining tool by AG/BG/Core.

[Heebs13]

The threat of Tunare snipes was briefly discussed between guild leaders/officers weeks ago - with AG/AM/BG/Core/PS present - and the consensus seemed to be that it was shitty move that nobody wanted, and an implication that none of us would.

It was surprising to see it being used as a bargaining tool by AG/BG/Core.

You guys dropped the agreement, which led to Tunare being FFA, which led to the threat of a snipe.

This is why we need an agreement in the first place. Why is this so hard? Why can we not do 12 hour lockouts?

[RicePaddy22]

Funny how Detoxx hasn't shown up to chime in.. must be busy eating his words

[Daloon]

I can't speak for the other guilds involved, but I know AG frequently chose not to go for Tunare because we were specifically afraid that we would spend 8 hours clearing only to have her sniped, which is exactly what was being threatened to happen last night.

Fake News. Nobody ever contested somebody elses PoG until AG/Core, hence the 100 zerg in zone. Most I ever remember was a guild mustering outside, and that was very early Velious.

[DromalPhrenia]

Why are you competing for a mob you cannot kill at the time in the first place? I don't understand it. I raid far less than many other raiders, which means less EQ fun, less DKP, less loot. EQ is in many ways a game about time dedication. I really don't understand more than a minimal lockout to start clearing. If Tunare spawns at night and I can't afford to lose sleep (this kind of thing happens a lot to me :mad: ), that's my problem, not yours. If this is true for enough of my guild, then I guess we don't kill Tunare this week!

[Heebs13]

Why are you competing for a mob you cannot kill at the time in the first place? I don't understand it. I raid far less than many other raiders, which means less EQ fun, less DKP, less loot. EQ is in many ways a game about time dedication. I really don't understand more than a minimal lockout to start clearing. If Tunare spawns at night and I can't afford to lose sleep (this kind of thing happens a lot to me :mad: ), that's my problem, not yours. If this is true for enough of my guild, then I guess we don't kill Tunare this week!

The mob was contested because there was an agreement in place that stated they had 12 hours to start their clear. Why do people kill Statue when they cannot kill AoW until they've had 20 minutes to recover their mana? HMMMM????

Making the lockout so short that only AM can capitalize on the lockout means no lockout agreement. No agreement means PoG becomes a nightmare.

Doesn't matter if you think you deserve it more because you're willing to raid when others are sleeping. Only thing that matters is you're able to get other guilds to agree to your terms, and terms that dick all the other guilds aren't going to get agreed to.

[Sadiki]

I know AG frequently chose not to go for Tunare because we were specifically afraid that we would spend 8 hours clearing only to have her sniped
Are you writing an EQ fanfiction book or something?

[Heebs13]

Are you writing an EQ fanfiction book or something?

Do you still play this game? This isn't RnF.

[Sadiki]

Do you still play this game? This isn't RnF.
You treat it like it is. Tunare sniping has never been a concern, ever. Why lie and voluntarily make your guild look dumb to other people? Aren't you the guy that forbade AG from posting on the forums for this exact reason?

[Heebs13]

You treat it like it is. Tunare sniping has never been a concern, ever. Why lie and voluntarily make your guild look dumb to other people? Aren't you the guy that forbade AG from posting on the forums for this exact reason?

Dunno where you're getting your info from, but you're wrong on all counts. How do you not know who I am? I post on the forums all the time.

[Heebs13]

Personally, I really don't want to argue over who wronged who or he said she said. I want to figure out a reasonable agreement that allows PoG to not be a nightmare. I think the 12 hour lockout agreement does exactly that, and I think we should do everything we can to NOT lose that agreement.

And from my very same post that you quoted....

How are you going to say I am treating this forum like it's RnF when I'm literally posting in the same thread saying I don't want to argue over trivial stuff. If this was RnF the standard operating procedure would be to sling mud, not try to work something out. No idea why you're slinging mud at me.

[DromalPhrenia]

Doesn't matter if you think you deserve it more because you're willing to raid when others are sleeping. Only thing that matters is you're able to get other guilds to agree to your terms, and terms that dick all the other guilds aren't going to get agreed to.
I'm pretty sure AG and Core are both able to mobilize pretty quickly, and IIRC Core has a good number of Euro players. I don't know much about AG as a guild except what I've seen in ToV/Kael/Etc. so I'm not sure about your player hours.

I don't see how this differs from any other poopsocky situation, if you want to be there when KT spawns, you might be wall-staring for a while. Same with ToV dragons. PoG clearing is more fun than wall-staring to me but maybe you disagree?

Either way, we backed out of the current agreement, you don't like my (very unofficial and non-binding) proposal, and apparently the other proposed agreement of 3 guild rotation was voted down so... I guess messy FFA Growth it is?

[DMN]

https://i.imgur.com/ZpixrXy.jpg

[Heebs13]

I'm pretty sure AG and Core are both able to mobilize pretty quickly, and IIRC Core has a good number of Euro players. I don't know much about AG as a guild except what I've seen in ToV/Kael/Etc. so I'm not sure about your player hours.

I don't see how this differs from any other poopsocky situation, if you want to be there when KT spawns, you might be wall-staring for a while. Same with ToV dragons. PoG clearing is more fun than wall-staring to me but maybe you disagree?

Either way, we backed out of the current agreement, you don't like my (very unofficial and non-binding) proposal, and apparently the other proposed agreement of 3 guild rotation was voted down so... I guess messy FFA Growth it is?

More patient people than myself will continue to try to work something out. Until then, yeah, I guess PoG will be a shitshow. Damn shame, I enjoyed the clears, but raiding until 5 in the morning is not something I'm interested in.

[Kluwen2]

You're welcome,

Rotation agreement:

AG/CORE
FFA race from PoG zone in 12 hrs to kill Tunare
Aftermath
FFA COTH- 6 hours to kill Tunare
PSG
FFA- Race from Skyshrine- 24 hr to kill Tunare

[Not_Mikeo]

What if I wanted to just buy Tunare loot kluwen? How much?

[Kluwen2]

What if I wanted to just buy Tunare loot kluwen? How much?

I'm not sure any of the guilds would be willing to sell anything off her loot table :/ Maybe one of the shitty weapons though!

[Kayso2]

Guilds tried it out; Aftermath had concerns about how it was being used.


Was that concern losing three straight? Had you won the last three, would you still be concerned?

[Phenyo]

Was that concern losing three straight? Had you won the last three, would you still be concerned?

I propose this; If you were offered a deal and it didn't benefit you would you want said deal?