Wiki Feedback Requested: Camp Rulings Page

[loramin]

Camp fights aren't fun for anyone, and very often they arise out of a misunderstanding of the rules. In order to help get everyone on the same page (literally) I've been working on a wiki page to document all of the staff's rulings (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rulings).

However, the format of that page wasn't so useful, so I created a new page that can hopefully become the new goto for "is there a camp ruling I should know about for _____". The new page isn't complete yet, but before I got too far with it I wanted to get feedback on whether the format is good, whether the page is missing info, etc.

If you have a minute please check out http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules and tell me what you think!

[loramin]

While waiting for feedback I wound up finishing it, at least as far as the rulings I'm aware of. But I'd still love any feedback anyone is willing to provide ... including, of course, any other rulings I've missed.

[Uuruk]

Yikes.gif

[loramin]

Yikes.gif

Not quite the feedback I was expecting (and I'm not even sure if that's a good "yikes" or a bad one), but thanks :)

If it was a bad yikes any suggestions for improvement would be appreciated.

[Brocode]

nice way to try to keep it all together in one place, lawyerquest 101

[loramin]

nice way to try to keep it all together in one place, lawyerquest 101

:) My hope in making the page is we can make this stuff common knowledge, to the point where when someone doesn't know it everyone else in-game is like "just look at that wiki page" ... and then it won't be special "LawyerQuest" knowledge anymore

[mizzbiscuits]

Camp fights aren't fun for anyone, and very often they arise out of a misunderstanding of the rules. In order to help get everyone on the same page (literally) I've been working on a wiki page to document all of the staff's rulings (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rulings).

However, the format of that page wasn't so useful, so I created a new page that can hopefully become the new goto for "is there a camp ruling I should know about for _____". The new page isn't complete yet, but before I got too far with it I wanted to get feedback on whether the format is good, whether the page is missing info, etc.

If you have a minute please check out http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules and tell me what you think!

I like it. Thank you Loramin.

[Wallicker]

We had a GM say less than a week ago VT was campable... I mean we need a GM to step in and clarify a list like this otherwise none of these are valid, enforceable or will be followed.

[Wallicker]

This is a great start

[loramin]

We had a GM say less than a week ago VT was campable... I mean we need a GM to step in and clarify a list like this otherwise none of these are valid, enforceable or will be followed.

In order to keep things as clear as possible every ruling has a link, and if you follow that one you can see that the post it's based on is extremely new: Menden just made it yesterday. In it he acknowledges the previous contradictory rulings and establishes the ruling that's now in the wiki (and very clearly states at the end that it overrides previous rulings):

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2904770&postcount=26%7C

Hello,

The recent call that involved DiogenesThaDogg never felt 100% right to me, a lot of arguments could be made for FTE or campable. I compared VT/VD to Hadden and SF, but Llandris made a very compelling argument which I'll list below.

I brought the topic up with other Senior Staff and we combed through countless past calls relating to these two spawns. The overwhelming majority is that it's FTE, not campable.

I put non-raid, single target, no PH spawns into two categories.

1. Campable, but must keep guards clear.
Sir Lucan
Drusella Sathir

2. Campable, but must get FTE within a reasonable amount of time.
Hadden
Stormfeather

I originally put VT/VD into this category but because they are generally killed with 2+ players, this makes it really hard.



As we see it this goes against the "stalling" or "kill within a reasonable amount of time" guideline we
have stated countless times for other camps. So I can understand the confusion among players(and staff apparently).

So, we're making this official. A third category.

3. FTE, let the race begin.
Verina Tomb
Vessel Drozlin

I'll see if I can talk Nilbog/Rogean into putting a FTE emote on these two mobs which would make it pretty clear what kind of encounter this is and stop any confusion that may come up in the future.

I apologize for any confusion I may have caused, but going forward you have this post to go on as a concrete guideline backed up by the Server GM and other Senior Staff.



If anyone has shared the screenshot that DiogeneThaDogg has posted, please remove it or edit the
post stating the call has been reversed.

[mizzbiscuits]

Yeah! What I like about this is he has links for every single ruling for said camp. I can’t imagine the work you put into this.

[wtsgoodtime]

Camp fights aren't fun for anyone, and very often they arise out of a misunderstanding of the rules. In order to help get everyone on the same page (literally) I've been working on a wiki page to document all of the staff's rulings (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rulings).

However, the format of that page wasn't so useful, so I created a new page that can hopefully become the new goto for "is there a camp ruling I should know about for _____". The new page isn't complete yet, but before I got too far with it I wanted to get feedback on whether the format is good, whether the page is missing info, etc.

If you have a minute please check out http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules and tell me what you think!

I think this kind of documentation is very much needed. Thanks for getting it started. I do however wish we could simplify by a set of rules rather than having to define special rules per camp. I'd like to see the scenario added of how long a camp can be spawned and camper away from camp before it is lost. Good work!

[loramin]

I think this kind of documentation is very much needed. Thanks for getting it started. I do however wish we could simplify by a set of rules rather than having to define special rules per camp. I'd like to see the scenario added of how long a camp can be spawned and camper away from camp before it is lost. Good work!

Thanks. The general rules are at the bottom; the tables above them are just the exceptional cases. In a game as intricate as EQ, I don't think any one set of generic rules can possibly cover every possible different case, so I do think some exceptions are needed ... but hopefully the page will minimize the pain of those exceptions.

As for the time, the staff have never posted a specific time, which is why the page doesn't have anything about time. I strongly suspect this is on purpose; the staff likes to leave details like that open-ended and decide based on all of the information available at any given dispute.

In other words, if you wanted to take A4 from me that one time, the only way to know if I took "too long" would be to petition and see if the GM that showed up felt it was too long ;)

[loramin]

Yeah! What I like about this is he has links for every single ruling for said camp. I can’t imagine the work you put into this.

Thanks!

Actually, compared to the fashion categories (which took me weeks of custom coding) this page came together in under a day (although it leveraged the Rulings page heavily, and that page probably took several days, over the course of months). Menden's recent posts helped a great deal; he covered both the core rules at the bottom and several specific camps all in the course of a few posts he made yesterday; thank you GM Menden!

But at the risk of being cheesy, I'm always happy to put in the time if it helps make the game I love better for everyone :D

[Wallicker]

Wait so selling SF loot rights is against the rules?? Praise this rule if it actually gets enforced

[Madbad]

Thanks!

Actually, compared to the fashion categories (which took me weeks of custom coding) this page came together in under a day (although it leveraged the Rulings page heavily, and that page probably took several days, over the course of months). Menden's recent posts helped a great deal; he covered both the core rules at the bottom and several specific camps all in the course of a few posts he made yesterday; thank you GM Menden!

But at the risk of being cheesy, I'm always happy to put in the time if it helps make the game I love better for everyone :D

Loramin, it's no-lifers like you....

that make the game playable for the rest of us.

[Varren]

Thanks for your work Loramin

[Menden]

Wait so selling SF loot rights is against the rules?? Praise this rule if it actually gets enforced

eh.. there was a clarifying post somewhere that stated you can sell loot rights but you must move on once your item drops. We don't want people to think they can sit on the camp through multiple SF spawns selling every loot right.

[Madbad]

eh.. there was a clarifying post somewhere that stated you can sell loot rights but you must move on once your item drops. We don't want people to think they can sit on the camp through multiple SF spawns selling every loot right.

That's a sexy ruling right there

[loramin]

eh.. there was a clarifying post somewhere that stated you can sell loot rights but you must move on once your item drops. We don't want people to think they can sit on the camp through multiple SF spawns selling every loot right.

My apologies Senior Guide Menden. That post got missed somehow when I compiled the Rulings page, but has now been corrected (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rulings#Clarification:_Stormfeather_Loot_Rights_Ca n_Be_Sold).

I also added the following warning at the top:

NOTE: This page is NOT comprehensive. Like the rest of the wiki it is purely a volunteer effort. At any time a staff member may make a new ruling that's not included here, and if you see one please feel add it here: it's a wiki!

Hopefully though this speaks to the potential value of the page. If I, when making an effort, missed a ruling, it's easy to believe that others might as well, and that a page like this might help many players better understand the camp rules of this server overall.

Also:

That's a sexy ruling right there

[loramin]

P.S. I also decided to admin lock the page. Unfortunately this will limit who can update it, so if you see missed rulings (of at least some significance; please don't send every staff post ;)) please PM them to me and I'll add them.

I figured this was the better alternative to leaving the page open to a very real possibility of vandalism. If a player could edit the page to "prove" a false rule to another player, that would be all kinds of wrong.

I did the same to the Camp Rules page, and added an updated disclaimer:

NOTE: This page is NOT guaranteed to be comprehensive ... or anything else except (like the rest of the wiki) a volunteer best effort. At any time a staff member may make a new ruling that's not included here, and if you see one please PM Loramin in the forum (unfortunately this page is admin-locked to prevent vandalism).

And to be clear all of this is just a "for now and see how it goes" measure.

[Muggens]

Wiki saboteurs oughta be spanked with a splintered bamboo stick!

[Malik_Gynax]

I like the pages. Honestly, my big takeaway from it is that I think that the rulings themselves are often fairly confusing or misleading. If anything, it shows all the ways in which you can totally get away with harassing other players without fear of petitions.

Take for example, below:

"There's also player defined camps out there we don't enforce but HIGHLY encourage players follow. Player defined camps may include Sisters in lfay ..."

I feel that the statement of "We highly encourage players to follow these normal camp rules, but it's not required" is kind of a frustrating addition. What you really just said was "Sisters in lfay can be camped individually if you so desire, and nothing will be done to enforce the camp as a whole." I see this repeated many times looking down the list.

Players who respect each other enough to work out the camps in the way that is "encouraged" are never the problem. These rulings have to happen specifically because there's a significant subset of players who don't care about doing what they're "encouraged" to do. They'll do whatever they can get away with. If anything the post just clarifies that the jerks can continue to do whatever they want and you can't petition them.

So if you're saying they can get away with camping individual mobs in a camp that's generally accepted as one bigger camp... then they will do so! Just say so. Don't say "You can camp an individual mob in a larger camp, but if you do it at these camps it makes you a jerk," because that is a meaningless statement that doesn't really help. It makes certain people feel justified in feeling angry over someone doing something... but doesn't give them anything to do about it.

Sorry for the frustration. I just feel like if it's worth stating in a post "We HIGHLY encourage players to follow this player etiquette", then it's worth making a more concrete ruling on it.