Legacy items on Green99 - pros and cons

[Izmael]

The staff didn't give us any hints on whether or not legacy items will drop on Green, so it's all up open for speculation. Maybe some items will drop, maybe all of them, maybe none. Maybe Green will merge to Blue after, maybe it will be with legacy items, maybe without.


I'm still unsure on what I prefer, to be honest.

I joined P99 in 2014 so obviously missed things such as Guise, Manastone, Locket, etc.
A part of me wants the legacy items to drop on Green, so I get a chance to sock it hard for a couple months and get a shot at all the good stuff, get a bunch of characters guised, bound at the pots, fill a bag or two with manastones, etc etc.

On the other hand, there are a few other things to consider.

TRUST
There's only one true classic Everquest server in the world, and that's Blue99. There's no alternative. And part of the success of it is the TRUST we, players, put into it. The trust that has been gained by server thanks to the competent and committed staff behind it. Creating and maintaining such a service with such quality of ...everything, really - is no joke, and the staff showed repeatedly that they know what they are doing.

Therefore, we trust them to keep the only Classic EQ instance in the world up, and our characters and items safely there. One particular aspect of EQ is that some items gain value because they no longer drop.

We know that if we quit for a year or four, then decide to log back in, all our characters and items will be exactly where we left them. P99 is our Classic EQ safehouse.

A merging Green99 with legacy items could potentially alter this immutability and automatically undermine this trust.

The poor casual fellow who joined in 2018 and worked their ass off for 6 months to pay for a CoS, suddenly sees all his efforts devalued. He will feel like crap and won't trust P99 any longer to preserve the value of his efforts.


ECONOMY
Another aspect is purely macroeconomic. P99 economy is deflationary. Too many items enter the world and 99% of items keep getting cheaper. I don't think this is healthy or desirable. The very few items who keep being expensive are the legacy items (along with some exceptions such as AoN or Puppet Strings). I think it is important that some stuff remains expensive, for the health of the economy which is a big part of what classic EQ is.



LEGACY STATUS
Third aspect: legacy items are legacy for a reason. An item has legacy status or it does not. If there's knowledge that it will drop again, then it's simply not legacy any longer. It's temporarily not dropping, that's all. Legacy items are an important aspect of classic EQ.



GAMEPLAY
Fourth aspect: None of the legacy items are essential for the gameplay and are purely status symbols. (One exception is CoS but there are gazillions stashed on mules). Legacy items are the early adopter rewards. By allowing a new influx of such items, early adopter rewards are simply erased. Again, this potentially undermines the trust that P99 will preserve your acquired status.


SHITSHOW
Fifth aspect: Allowing legacy items to drop would mean that the Green server would be nothing else but an opportunity to farm them. Instead of actually enjoying pre-Kunark classic EQ, it would be a shit flinging contest filled with petitions, trains, lawyering and general mayhem around the few legacy camps. The few stay-at-home neckbeards will most likely deny the general population any kind of realistic shot. I don't know if P99 needs it.

[DMN]

Like i mentioned in one of the other threads, simply making these items no drop will mitigate a significant amount of problems.

Even if you removed the items the "neckbeards" will just migrate to the highest value items and make them shithows, too. You can't really escape that issue by waving a wand and making a few select items disappear.

I have zero inside knowledge but can say with near certainty they will have the items. It's pretty much non-starter to completely remove them.

[Uuruk]

Blue99 the only true classic server?

[DMN]

Blue99 the only true classic server?

My necro's lifetaps would like to have a word with you.

[Jimjam]

Blue is a beta for green. You know what's the classic policy for beta servers?

Wipe it clean!

[Ravager]

Just play the game and enjoy it. They have their own plans and it's unlikely anyone else's opinions will be a factor in how to run it. It'll be whatever it'll be.

[Izmael]

Blue99 the only true classic server?

Yes.

Red99 doesn't count, because playing Everquest with a total population of 20 inbred drug addict virgins, is not classic.

Classic is playing Everquest with a ton of people, like on Blue.

(But everything in my OP actually applies to Red).

[Izmael]

Just play the game and enjoy it. They have their own plans and it's unlikely anyone else's opinions will be a factor in how to run it. It'll be whatever it'll be.

They can very well be completely unsure of how to proceed with legacy items and be welcoming a healthy debate.

[Izmael]

Like i mentioned in one of the other threads, simply making these items no drop will mitigate a significant amount of problems

That would be IMO a terrible way of dealing with it, as it would create non-classic items that never existed anywhere, such as a non-drop manastone.


Even if you removed the items the "neckbeards" will just migrate to the highest value items and make them shithows, too.
But that's ok. They can keep the GEB s camp on lock down for months and make a ton of plat, who cares. The GEBs will always drop and eventually become common.


I have zero inside knowledge but can say with near certainty they will have the items. It's pretty much non-starter to completely remove them.

Why are you so certain? Nobody would play on green if manastone isn't dropping? I would. I never experienced pre-Kunark EQ and would love to have a look.

[Swish2]

Yes.

Red99 doesn't count, because playing Everquest with a total population of 20 inbred drug addict virgins, is not classic.

Did you read the updated forum rules?

[Axlrose]

As others have suggested, once the green server reaches it end of life, have the players transfer to the blue server naked. Thus those that farm the green server for legacy items and other "phat lewt" will have nowhere to go with these items.

[Muggens]

Yes.

Red99 doesn't count, because playing Everquest with a total population of 20 inbred drug addict virgins, is not classic.

Classic is playing Everquest with a ton of people, like on Blue.

(But everything in my OP actually applies to Red).

This aint RnF

[Keza]

So what you're saying is delete blue? Or perhaps the less extreme 'give recycled greens their own server'? I don't agree or disagree because I don't care about blue or post-green, but since they will be totally irrelevant after a new green comes out it feels like a 'may as well' kind of scenario. Whether they merge it with blue or make a compost pile to dump postmortem greens into is irrelevant since only the sweatiest nerdlords will play those servers until they realize EQ with 5 people isn't EQ. Or fun. Why should Rogean or anyone else care about the 30 people who play red? The 30 people who will play blue after green launches? Trust? In what? You were given exactly what they promised.

Any trust you feel is completely one-sided and totally fictional. They have no obligations and there are tons of people who feel burned by p99 in one way or the other. Hell in one of these green threads someone was saying ex-guides stole their accounts and sold them.

All of these threads and posts talking about how green is just a passing fancy, about trust, about legacy items.. you're all just people desperate to keep your pixels that no one who has ever lived, is living or will live cares about. You're going to lose those pixels one way or the other, so if you're here playing P99 because you love EQ then you have the chance to relive the game you love.. or accept the death of your characters and move along.

[loramin]

I think there's two issues here: Green being a "farming ground for Blue", and camps being dominated by groups.

The fact that many players will play on Green and do certain camps not because they want to play on Green, but because they want to farm items for Blue, is going to put a huge amount of pressure on those camps. But ultimately I don't think that pressure is the root problem: I think the rules are. It's just that when you put those rules under that pressure they reach their breaking point.

I believe the core problem is that any group of people on P99 can lock down a camp and not break a rule. Already the server rules prevent this for individual players. As long as the item they are camping is LORE (which I believe all the legacy items in question are), they are forced to move on to another camp once they acquire it.

That's a great rule: it ensures that no matter how much of a loser any one player is, every other player on the server gets a fair chance to either get in line or FTE race the mob after that first player finishes. But as soon as two or more players team up, all sanity goes out the window and that group can lock down a camp in perpetuity, in theory for the three-year or so life of the server. In fact, at that point the rules actually support/encourage such practices (if a player gets fed up with a group locking down a camp for weeks and tries to take it, they will get in trouble for KSing).

That's the core problem: no one, not even a motivated group of players, should be able to lock any camp on any server down for an extended period of time. Any real solution has to prevent that scenario ... but it also has to work for our 100% volunteer team of staff members, who don't have infinite time to track every person at every camp.

I don't know what the solution is, but I will say that one peice of it may be technological: the staff may need the dev team (or a volunteer from the player base like myself) to make a tool for them that can make tracking camp monopolizers easier.

However, no matter what tool Nilbog or anyone creates, it will only be part of the solution, and a total solution has to add some rule which solves the problem while also being viable for our all-volunteer support team. So let's get creative people! Can anyone use their imagination to dream up an easy-to-implement rule that prevents groups from locking a camp, without otherwise disrupting the game?

[loramin]

TLDR;
Can anyone use their imagination to dream up an easy-to-implement rule[, that's viable for our all-volunteer support team,] that prevents groups from locking a camp, without otherwise disrupting the game?

[Fammaden]

Its a problem that's as old as the game though loramin, there isn't some easy to implement and enforce rule you can come up with to stop human nature. This stuff comes along with open world non-instanced content.

There's already been so many attempts to fix such behavior around raid content, and it just resulted in more and more rule minutiae that starts to feel more ridiculous than the problem behavior you're trying to curb.

The best way to combat any of this is in coding, which none of us expect to happen in the name of classic and that's fine if that's their priority for this project. We've already seen the best suggestions over and over, retroactively nerf the items to not drop from day one, or make them no drop, and/or state clearly from pre-launch that accounts will not move from green to blue ever. That last one is probably our best and most realistic hope right now to address this issue given our expectations about their intentions for the server's classic aspirations.

[Izmael]

Actually, moving characters naked could be a good compromise. This way, the time spent playing Green isn't completely lost as the characters will continue to live on Blue, but without disrupting its economy.

[DMN]

Actually, moving characters naked could be a good compromise. This way, the time spent playing Green isn't completely lost as the characters will continue to live on Blue, but without disrupting its economy.

So destroy green economy as it might marginally impact blues. Makes sense.

[DMN]

TLDR;

Not classic.

[aaezil]

You arent special because you killed a lvl 30 mob 10 years before anyone else played. Sorry.

[Izmael]

So destroy green economy as it might marginally impact blues. Makes sense.

But green economy doesn't even exist.

[DMN]

But green economy doesn't even exist.

And tomorrow never comes, so don't worry about anything.

[Buellen]

Server merging has happened before. in history of Everquest. I do not remember sony going "hmm wonder if this will negatively impact those servers because of legacy items" so what if said item comes into the market on blue. they existed on blue at one time so more of them will exist IF green toons get merged into blue. Big deal <not>

would people rage quite etc etc probably but the server would continue.

and always my fav Nilbog Quote:

" I'll keep making classic changes when I can, regardless if people threaten to quit. I'm here to recreate classic eq; not to make people happy."

[Champion_Standing]

Selling loot rights for guise 200k

[loramin]

Not classic.

Actually, the classic Play Nice Policy was far stricter than the one here. If two people disputed a mob and it wasn't clear whose it was, the GM forced them to random and then moved on. If someone got an item they were camping and someone else wanted it, the first person was similarly forced to move on (and not just if it was LORE, the way it is here).

I can all but guarantee, after reading the live server guide handbook, that if a group of people tried to monopolize a camp on live the GMs definitely would have stepped in. It's transparently obvious if you just read the spirit of the thing (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97723):

The goal of EverQuest is to create a world where as many people as possible can come and enjoy an immersive role-playing experience.

Note that it does not say "to create a world where farm crews can earn their rent money" ;) But to get literal here's their actual camp dispute policy:

When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested, a disruption investigation should first be initiated according to the procedures of section 8.2.2 to determine if harassment or Zone/Area disruption is occurring. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, instruct the parties involved in the contested spawn situation to work out a compromise. Then leave the scene.

If another complaint is received involving the same spawn site, another disruption investigation should be initiated. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise for the parties to which the parties are required to abide. The compromise should be as described in section 8.2.3.1. Any party refusing to abide by the compromise established by the CS Representative should be issued a warning for disruption.

On PvP servers, where players can reach a solution to the contested spawn situation, the CS Representative does not need to require the players to share the spawn.

The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation. The CS Representative then bases the rest of the rotation order on how close the other parties’ numbers were to theirs. The compromise established by a CS Representative must be objective and not require the CS Representative to choose one customer over another based on subjective criteria. The CS Representative is the arbiter in any disputes in establishing the compromise.

So, like many of the "play nice policy" rules here this has nothing to do with classic vs. not classic. It has everything to do with the resources and limits of our all volunteer CSR staff vs. live/classic which had paid GMs and "paid with free EQ" guides.

Again, we're smart and creative people: we should be able to come up with a system that prevents lockouts (which is 100% classic), but in a way that works for our less-resourced CSR team.

[loramin]

Server merging has happened before. in history of Everquest. I do not remember sony going "hmm wonder if this will negatively impact those servers because of legacy items" so what if said item comes into the market on blue. they existed on blue at one time so more of them will exist IF green toons get merged into blue. Big deal <not>

Apples and oranges. Yes live server merges happened with gear. No merging two servers that started at the same point in the timeline is not in any way the same as merging a server released years later on a much earlier timeline with an existing server.

The whole problem here is people A) know about the merge, and B) know about the items. That makes this situation entirely different: it converts Green from being a server in its own right to being a Blue farming ground. Live servers merging had no such effect, so again, apples and oranges.

A more apt comparison would be merging EQ Mac onto Bristlebane or something (which of course never happened).

[DMN]

Actually, the classic Play Nice Policy was far stricter than the one here. If two people disputed a mob and it wasn't clear whose it was, the GM forced them to random and then moved on. If someone got an item they were camping and someone else wanted it, the first person was similarly forced to move on (and not just if it was LORE, the way it is here).

Like many of the "play nice policy" rules here this has nothing to do with classic vs. not classic. It has everything to do with the resources and limits of our all volunteer CSR staff vs. live/classic which had paid GMs and "paid with free EQ" guides.


But like you said, it has to be realistic with P99's staff ability to police these things. It's just not going to happen. And you may think those play nice policies were ever enforced, but only one time since playing from day one did I ever see a guide try to control and actually enforce it. They gave up after about half an hour and logged out. It was Derlzna with like 30-40 people trying to kill her. Guides usually didn't show up for hours and then didn't do anything but run their mouths. Getting GMs to show up could be 2-3 times longer, long after the camping situations and players involved had completely changed.

What was supposed to happen is that one group got a kill on the named mob/item dropper, and then the other belligerent group got the next one. Back and forth. but never saw it enforced, and only once saw it attempted.

[loramin]

But like you said, it has to be realistic with P99's staff ability to police these things. It's just not going to happen. And you may think those play nice policies were ever enforced, but only one time since playing from day one did I ever see a guide try to control and actually enforce it. They gave up after about half an hour and logged out. It was Derlzna with like 30-40 people trying to kill her. Guides usually didn't show up for hours and then didn't do anything but run their mouths. Getting GMs to show up could be 2-3 times longer, long after the camping situations and players involved had completely changed.

What was supposed to happen is that one group got a kill on the named mob/item dropper, and then the other belligerent group got the next one. Back and forth. but never saw it enforced, and only once saw it attempted.

You're missing the point. The point is ... well there's several:

First, live GMs would never have let a group monopolize a camp for weeks at a time. I can't prove that, since this wasn't even a case Verant so much as considered in the guidebook ... but again if you actually read the thing it's pretty clear what their motives are: money. Sure at any given moment a guide might not have been available, and sure not every guide followed the guidebook to the letter. But even so it seems very clear that the GMs would not have let a bunch of customers who gave them money be upset by letting one or a small number of other customers dominate content. They forced "everyone take a turn" settlements that made everyone equally pissed off and/or happy instead.

Second, our staff can't be like live staff; they don't have the same resources, and literally can't since P99 doesn't charge. (We seem agreed on this much at least.)

Finally, despite those two facts, I believe it's possible for P99 to (classically) prevent lockouts with its existing support team. You're welcome to say "I don't think so" or "my live experience/data point of one says you're wrong about what the staff would have done on live" ... but I don't see the latter as a convincing argument when I've got the literal GM guide (not to mention plenty of players who do remember live staff enforcing the Play Nice Policy) supporting my position.

And again, we have lots of smart and creative people here, and I think you're selling them short. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe it's truly impossible for our CSR staff to prevent lockouts. But let's give the forum a chance to suggest some ideas first.

[DMN]

You show up with whatever rules you want to cook up. Let's say you force the players to rotate group kills on on a disputed item dropper.They go ok, we will split are party of 6 up into 1s and then the other group obviously does the same. Now you have 12 people going after a mob that spawns once in a half hour with quite a rare drop. But more and more players will be showing up in the interim to demand their spot at the loot troph -- far byond the drop rate of the wanted item. it would be a logistal nightmare and you are certainly going to have Ksers that go "whoops" I thought it was my turn" and other assorted shenanigans.

[Elysium]

seeing people worried about how a fresh green server will affect the rareness of their pixels is the epitome of sad

[Neno]

I'm about 90% sure that the guise was the common drop from the Assassin on live. Of all the nameds in Lguk that have Armor/Weapon drops the weapon is the rare and the armor is the common. The exceptions to this are the Savant and the Crusader. The Savant's EBM and Crusader's RF are the commons because they don't have any additional effects or stats. We do know for sure that the Mask of Deception is common after the Guise was removed which would have required them to shift the rarity of the SBD which seems unlikely as all the other proc weapons are rare. The guise prior to its removal was not really that special. The renown that is has was gained after the drop the nerfed.

Why does this matter? When P99 went live the guise was set to rare. When the guise was replaced with mask the mask was also kept at rare for awhile until I bug reported it and it was fixed. In order for green to be a truly classic experience and keep Lguk from being a complete shit show I suggest that the rarity of the guise be reevaluated to the common drop unless evidence claims otherwise. I've looked over the years for posts that talked about its rarity and never really found anything. However, the in game loot for lower guk would suggest that the SBD belongs to the rare cycle of proc weapons and the guise is part of the common cycle of equipment.


edit: Actually, here is an EQ'Lizer page citing that the guise was the common drop. Apparently I just didn't look hard enough before. https://web.archive.org/web/20000410232322/http://gameznet.com:80/eq/zone/lowerguk.html

[loramin]

You show up with whatever rules you want to cook up. Let's say you force the players to rotate group kills on on a disputed item dropper.They go ok, we will split are party of 6 up into 1s and then the other group obviously does the same. Now you have 12 people going after a mob that spawns once in a half hour with quite a rare drop. But more and more players will be showing up in the interim to demand their spot at the loot troph -- far byond the drop rate of the wanted item. it would be a logistal nightmare and you are certainly going to have Ksers that go "whoops" I thought it was my turn" and other assorted shenanigans.

Here's one simple idea. I imagine others could do better:

Groups of players cannot claim camps over legacy items, only individuals. As soon as an individual acquires a legacy item they must pass the camp to a randomly determined next player (out of those currently waiting for the camp at that moment).

It's short, simple, and prevents lockouts without requiring extra GM oversight, while giving every player an equal and fair chance to acquire legacy items (multiplied by how willing they are to sit and wait at the camp ... ie. it rewards perseverance). Of course people could break the rules and not random, forcing a GM to show up ... but that's no different from people breaking any other rule on the server.

And heck, with a tiny bit of custom coding the legacy drop NPCs could even check all the PCs within a certain distance around them at death, do the random automatically, and announce "Bob now has this camp". It wouldn't be classic, but neither is an all-volunteer CSR staff or FTE messages. Historically P99 has always been willing to go un-classic if necessary to make things work for the staff.

[loramin]

A set time after velious has been out the server wipes and resets progression like a leader board. I don't know why people are speculating so much with crazy ideas.

People are "speculating so much" because the staff has never said the server will just wipe. On the contrary, there has been lots of discussion of the server here on the forums in the past where the assumption was that characters would somehow migrate to Blue.

Obviously if that doesn't happen it will take a lot of pressure off those camps on Green ... but A) the staff hasn't confirmed how it will work one way or the other, so until they do speculation is natural, and B) even without Blue transfer, these camps are still going to be extremely popular.

Based on P99's history (see past Fungi Tunic monopolization, not to mention pretty much the entire history of the raid scene) it does not at all seem impossible that some motivated groups of people might lock those camps down, even without a Blue transfer.

[Fammaden]

It's short, simple, and prevents lockouts without requiring extra GM oversight, while giving every player an equal and fair chance to acquire legacy items (multiplied by how willing they are to sit and wait at the camp ... ie. it rewards perseverance). Of course people could break the rules and not random, forcing a GM to show up ... but that's no different from people breaking any other rule on the server

And heck, with a tiny bit of custom coding the legacy drop NPCs could even check all the PCs within a certain distance around them at death, do the random automatically, and announce "Bob now has this camp". It wouldn't be classic, but neither is an all-volunteer CSR staff or FTE messages. Historically P99 has always been willing to go un-classic if necessary to make things work for the staff.

How on earth does that not require extra GM oversight? Have you met many of your fellow players? And what do you mean "individual"? Can a full xp group not camp the room? That's obscene, even though its entirely possible that the camps will be solo socked 24/7 anyway. Who's keeping the list, players? We see how that goes already with OOT AC and these camps would put the pixel frenzy for jboots MQ's to shame.

There's no simple rule that can police this sort of toxic behavior, and any attempt is more likely to end up being worse than simple neckbearding of the spawn. People socking lguk is bad (and inevitable even without guise/MS) but seeing a zone message that its your turn like waiting at the DMV for tags or license is even worse.

[Fammaden]

greens going to be "classic" "progression" (whats all the work for anyways?) A set time after velious has been out the server wipes and resets progression like a leader board. I don't know why people are speculating so much with crazy ideas. Only thing that should be watched for is no lifers staying at a camp and getting multiple bags of manastones or whatever. Get your item and move on. Hate to see people xp at ass/sup just to cock block one of those other 11, feel me? .play nice and enjoy classic eq and if you cant take a reset after a couple years in velious don't bother "wasting" your time on green.

I was never a fan of the wiping idea, but the more these discussions go on I'm starting to think it might be the healthiest thing they could say about it. I have to admit I'd be a little reluctant about that myself, but if it was better for the overall server experience then it would be worth it.

I'd probably end up splitting more time back on blue if that was the case rather than being full on green, but I might be turned off by whatever custom content they are planning for blue too. Not really interested in farming a custom Luclin/LoY/PoP zone or having a modified AA system implemented personally.

[beargryllz]

Actually, moving characters naked could be a good compromise. This way, the time spent playing Green isn't completely lost as the characters will continue to live on Blue, but without disrupting its economy.

Why not just wipe all the items off blue and let a fresh economy flourish.

That seems like a much, much better idea

[loramin]

How on earth does that not require extra GM oversight? Have you met many of your fellow players? And what do you mean "individual"? Can a full xp group not camp the room? That's obscene, even though its entirely possible that the camps will be solo socked 24/7 anyway. Who's keeping the list, players? We see how that goes already with OOT AC and these camps would put the pixel frenzy for jboots MQ's to shame.

There's no simple rule that can police this sort of toxic behavior, and any attempt is more likely to end up being worse than simple neckbearding of the spawn. People socking lguk is bad (and inevitable even without guise/MS) but seeing a zone message that its your turn like waiting at the DMV for tags or license is even worse.

"Who's keeping the list, players?" I literally never said anything whatsoever about lists. "What is an individual?" Really, you feel that's a necessary question?

If you want to actual read my post and reply to it I'm happy to have a conversation, but clearly you just came at this with an axe to grind (ie. you came her to say "there's no simple rule that can police this sort of toxic behavior" before you'd ever read anything), and if you did read my post you clearly didn't try to understand it.

[Ravager]

They can very well be completely unsure of how to proceed with legacy items and be welcoming a healthy debate.
What server do you play on?

[devblueray]

Yes.

Red99 doesn't count, because playing Everquest with a total population of 20 inbred drug addict virgins, is not classic.
.

You need at least 100 for it to be classic.

[DMN]

"Who's keeping the list, players?" I literally never said anything whatsoever about lists. "What is an individual?" Really, you feel that's a necessary question?

If you want to actual read my post and reply to it I'm happy to have a conversation, but clearly you just came at this with an axe to grind (ie. you came her to say "there's no simple rule that can police this sort of toxic behavior" before you'd ever read anything), and if you did read my post you clearly didn't try to understand it.

If not a list then I suppose the "waiting" players would all need to stay right at or very near the camp location.

Say there are 10 people and just /rand 10. Then go alphabetically.The main "killing" people will have to be grouped so they can see the loot messages.

But what's to stop the first group of players there from just telling the other players who want in that no manastones have been dropping?

Is the killing group going to required to /rand on the items or are they allowed to dictate who gets the drop either by an arbitrary order or perhaps the order they arrived in the group?

[Champion_Standing]

So we rotating CB throne room or what boys? Getting my plans for next winter together now.

[loramin]

Well first off this is just my quick idea, and again I imagine others can do better. But ...


If not a list then I suppose the "waiting" players would all need to stay right at or very near the camp location.

Exactly (especially in my imaginary scenario of adding custom code which announces a random camp winner out of the nearby PCs ... and BTW that message wouldn't have to bother the whole zone like FTE messages; it could be localized to the same area it picks PCs from).

If you want to camp a legacy item you have to hang out and wait close to the camp until it frees up; no "free pixels" for getting on a list and showing up at the right time. Not that I personally have anything against lists per say, but they add extra complexity and we need a simple (and simple to enforce) system.

Say there are 10 people and just /rand 10. Then go alphabetically.The main "killing" people will have to be grouped so they can see the loot messages.

I wouldn't even say "go alphabetically", because then you have to start a list right there, and again I think we want a simple system. So if Player A loots his manastone, and players B and C are waiting and B wins the roll, then Player D shows up, C and D would have an equal chance of getting the camp when B gets their stone.

B doesn't get any advantage on the second roll just because they lost the first roll.

But what's to stop the first group of players there from just telling the other players who want in that no manastones have been dropping?

Again, under my proposal there are no groups at these camps. Maybe to avoid shenanigans that could even become an explicit "you are not allowed to be in a group while doing these camps (though you are welcome to have friends help as long as they don't "KS" you). This would be easy for players to enforce: if they see anyone other than the camp holder loot a corpse from the camp they /petition (or, if custom code is used, groups could be allowed since the server could only allow the designated camp winner to loot ... but I'm not sure how crazy the staff is going to want to go with custom code, if at all).

Once the camp holder gets their item, it's a solved problem; the GMs already enforce a "get your ring and you're out of there" policy on camps like OOT cyclops today. If they lie and say "nothing dropped" that lie will become apparent as soon as another manastone drops that they can't loot.

Is the killing group going to required to /rand on the items or are they allowed to dictate who gets the drop either by an arbitrary order or perhaps the order they arrived in the group?

Again no groups, but yes the individual would be required to random. This is the essential part to prevent lockouts.

Sure it means that someone who shows up at 11AM and loses a lot has the exact same chance as someone who showed up at 11pm ... but that seems like a small downside to having an otherwise perfectly fair system that's enforceable (and it's exactly how many other things on the server, eg. Scout roll, work).

[DMN]

This sounds much more complicated than i suspected. imagine the first group of players making their way to the eye and suddenly they have to start obeying all these weird rules. Also the EE is going to be quite a difficult solo kill so having questionable "support" from other players(who probabaly don't even want the plaer to survive) is probably going to lead to deaths and confusion. And how to deal with potential trains if people aren't even in a group working as team? More confusion, deaths, frustrated players.

It almost sounds like in your head you are imagining level 60 players camping the EE or something. Not a couple poorly geared level 30s.

And this system would certainly require the server to give some sort of looting message.

[loramin]

And this system would certainly require the server to give some sort of looting message.

Not at all; it absolutely could be done with /randoms. The custom code would just simplify things a bit. But we do rolls all the time on this server, both for loot and for stuff like Scout, with no problem.

This sounds much more complicated than i suspected. imagine the first group of players making their way to the eye and suddenly they have to start obeying all these weird rules. Also the EE is going to be quite a difficult solo kill so having questionable "support" from other players(who probabaly don't even want the plaer to survive) is probably going to lead to deaths and confusion. And how to deal with potential trains if people aren't even in a group working as team? More confusion, deaths, frustrated players.

Like I said (and repeated), this was just a quick thought, and the "no groups" part was especially quick.

In retrospect, it isn't even needed: you can still allow groups as long as one person is the known camp holder, because (as I even noted) if anyone is waiting for the camp they can easily see if someone other than the camp holder loots the corpse.

It almost sounds like in your head you are imagining level 60 players camping the EE or something. Not a couple poorly geared level 30s.

Let's be honest: on day 3 or 4 these camps might be done by poorly geared level 30s, but this is P99: very quickly these camps will be dominated by solo 60s.

But nothing about these rule in any way gives the solo 60 any advantage. If anything the group has the advantage (kind of).

Let's say a group of four (to make my math easy) and a single soloer both show up just as someone else finishes the camp. The group has an 80% chance that one of their members will get the camp. If they do, the soloer has to sit and wait doing nothing while the group has fun clearing the camp.

Then as soon as the first group member gets their item, there's another random, and again odds are the group will win it, and will go back to getting XP, killing mobs, having fun, and also getting that one group member an item.

Of course the soloer still has a chance, just a lower one .. which I would argue is as it should be.

[aaezil]

How about just play nice dont be a jerk bag?

[loramin]

How about just play nice dont be a jerk bag?

That's always the glib response to rules threads. But as fun as it is to say, it completely ignores the basic fact that if you grab five random players you are going to get five different definitions of "jerk bag." Heck, if we're being realistic, probably more than five, like say two per person, because people naturally change their opinion based on whether they're fighting to keep a mob or fighting to take it from someone else ;)

Of course it would be awesome if the "Play Nice Policies" could literally just be "Play nice." But we need explicit rules precisely because they put everyone on the same (literal, rules) page as to what "being a jerk bag" means.

[aaezil]

If you need to know what that means you are the problem

[Wonkie]

wipe blue so all legacy items are obtained in a truly classic world on green before being transferred to blue at the end of the timeline

this is how you save blue

[Muggens]

If they wiped blue I would "place in the oars" as we say here, as quadding my wizard to 60 is a "years in progress" kinda thing

Gotta leave blue as is for us casuals who enjoy the grind at our own pace =)

[Coridan]

Let's be honest: on day 3 or 4 these camps might be done by poorly geared level 30s, but this is P99: very quickly these camps will be dominated by solo 60s

Aren't they all removed by Kunark? Guise and Rubicite certainly are

[loramin]

Aren't they all removed by Kunark? Guise and Rubicite certainly are

Heh, good point: should have said solo 50s :)

[Jibartik]

If not a list then I suppose the "waiting" players would all need to stay right at or very near the camp location.

Say there are 10 people and just /rand 10. Then go alphabetically.The main "killing" people will have to be grouped so they can see the loot messages.

But what's to stop the first group of players there from just telling the other players who want in that no manastones have been dropping?

Is the killing group going to required to /rand on the items or are they allowed to dictate who gets the drop either by an arbitrary order or perhaps the order they arrived in the group?

I got my Jboots on the Rallos Zek Server, sometime around level 16, on live at some point in the real 1999.

I heard tale of the mystical item that must be obtained and how, go to najina, youll figure it out they say!

You get there, see all this OOC chatter, /who 50-100 people in the zone, and get excited.

You travel down to the camp, finally figuring it out, in an almost empty zone devoid of enemies.

At the door to najina is a literal LINE of players.

LITERALLY in line.

Standing there, IN LINE... waiting... for someone in the KILL group, to obtain their boots, and leave, filling the kill group, with womever was next in line.

I waited in this line for about 24 hours. Finally getting a spot in the kill group, it took another couple hours for me to be the #1 spot int he kill group (you join, there are still 5 more people ahead of you)

Finally I got my boots, gated, and was a happy boi.

Now, my point?

We easily could do this on p99, the community is definitely strong enough and has done stuff like this many times before.

Question, what was the situation for the Hologresh beads? I never camped those on this server, havnt played for years and am back to play green99!

[DMN]

Keep in mind that the jboots were nodrop. Manastone is not only not no drop but isn't even lore. That's a big problem logistically.

[loramin]

Manastone is not only not no drop but isn't even lore. That's a big problem logistically.

I didn't realize this; definitely a kink in my otherwise simple plan. Now the plan has three parts:


enforced rules on having to random legacy items between all players waiting
optional custom code to "FTE-style announce" which nearby player won the camp after a mob carrying a legacy item is killed
mana stone needs to be made lore OR the custom code becomes mandatory (this would force a "Bob now has the camp" message when a player gets a manastone, so it wouldn't matter that the player could loot manastones repeatedly)


Still simple, doable, and doesn't require new staff effort ... but without the custom code (which would require a little dev effort) it will require a single non-classic change (LORE manastones), which is definitely a bummer. But I still think this one remains viable, and I'd still love to hear other ideas.

[NegaStoat]

Jibartik has an interesting point. The P1999 staff has repeatedly mentioned that they'll uphold rules that the players themselves devise for certain situations involving key mobs that will resolve competition / cheating and relieve some workload from the GM's. The 'you have to be in a group with shifting members that are added from a line of people waiting' thing is entirely possible. It would be an interesting solution for people locking it down and selling loot rights. Majority would entirely rule in this case.

[Rick Sanchez]

at some point you have to come to the realization that everquest like everything in life is an imperfect product. No matter what care bear things you install to make things "fair" and "everyone gets a chance is irrelevant. You either take the time to neckbeard it or you don't. Alas, I know this sounds annoying or is reading as a rant, however this is a emulator resembling classic experience or as close as it can get. MMO's in general are time sinks, if you want the care bear experience their is a laundry list of servers you can try. Don't complain you want the classic experience and yet you don't. /Juicy Contradiction.

[loramin]

Jibartik has an interesting point. The P1999 staff has repeatedly mentioned that they'll uphold rules that the players themselves devise for certain situations involving key mobs that will resolve competition / cheating and relieve some workload from the GM's. The 'you have to be in a group with shifting members that are added from a line of people waiting' thing is entirely possible. It would be an interesting solution for people locking it down and selling loot rights. Majority would entirely rule in this case.

I agree, it's an excellent point.

But ... as someone (just one of several) who had to "fight" to convince the community to embrace a roll on Shady Goblin (a fight that took over a week and involved players stealing mobs won fairly by other players in the meantime ... and yes I'm looking at you Siryado) ... I really hope we don't have to repeat all that for every legacy item mob on Green :)

[DMN]

at some point you have to come to the realization that everquest like everything in life is an imperfect product. No matter what care bear things you install to make things "fair" and "everyone gets a chance is irrelevant. You either take the time to neckbeard it or you don't. Alas, I know this sounds annoying or is reading as a rant, however this is a emulator resembling classic experience or as close as it can get. MMO's in general are time sinks, if you want the care bear experience their is a laundry list of servers you can try. Don't complain you want the classic experience and yet you don't. /Juicy Contradiction.

No, even if you totally neckbeard it up, you can be out bearded by people who just monopolize the camp in perpetuity.There is an especially high chance of this sort of thing occurring and then if there is a merger you have these monoplizers who will have a massive advantage since they solely control the influx of new manastones. They not only want to get as many stones as they can but deny other people access so they can control the market later. And even with no merger they will entirely control the market on green.

[-TK-]

It would be dumb to dump the green servers into blue at this point given blue's history. There should be another server named 'the dumpster' or 'the recycle bin' that green gets dumped to so we can keep all the green trash together, and then move blue into custom content. It's really the only plan that makes sense based on previous staff comments.

[Coridan]

They should announce before the server there will be no merge to Blue, at the end of Velious Green wipes. Hopefully that will create less obsession over the legacy items. They can change their mind when the time to wipe comes

[DMN]

They should announce before the server there will be no merge to Blue, at the end of Velious Green wipes. Hopefully that will create less obsession over the legacy items. They can change their mind when the time to wipe comes

That server would probably rival red's population within a month.

[DMN]

Im sure you would be surprised how many people would still be willing to play on green if reseting was the case.

Not the resetting that is the problem; it's the pixelcide.

[CodyF86]

Can we just get rid of red and make an orange server that is the contents / transfer of the green server everytime the timeline passes, and keep blue because it's unique in it's own way too...or don't get rid of red I was just joking. :)

[Squabbles123]

I really don't get the desire for merging green and blue, it seems like an awful awful idea.

Green REPLACING Blue seems like the better answer, blue can still exist, but its time is over, its time for a fresh start.

[loramin]

I really don't get the desire for merging green and blue, it seems like an awful awful idea.

Green REPLACING Blue seems like the better answer, blue can still exist, but its time is over, its time for a fresh start.

Yeah, I'm sure Rogean will totally be in favor of deleting the beloved characters some people have literally spent a decade working on simply because a new server is released ... when he's never wiped a single character in the entire history of the project (that I'm aware of) ... not even on Red.

[Jimjam]

Yeah, I'm sure Rogean will totally be in favor of deleting the beloved characters some people have literally spent a decade working on simply because a new server is released ... when he's never wiped a single character in the entire history of the project (that I'm aware of) ... not even on Red.

I read the other day that the point of the blue server is to deny others of pixels.

Shutting it down would be a server winning move by Rogean!

[Fammaden]

Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to.

[Squabbles123]

Yeah, I'm sure Rogean will totally be in favor of deleting the beloved characters some people have literally spent a decade working on simply because a new server is released ... when he's never wiped a single character in the entire history of the project (that I'm aware of) ... not even on Red.

I said "Blue can still exist", meaning no delete, run both, never merge, green is the new blue.

[Neno]

he's never wiped a single character in the entire history of the project (that I'm aware of) ... not even on Red.

There was at least one wipe prior to the Oct 2009 launch but we all knew it was coming far in advance. Post launch I'm pretty sure we were told there would never be another wipe again.

[Beldan4]

TRUST
There's only one true classic Everquest server in the world, and that's Blue99. There's no alternative.

WHAT A LOAD OF GARBAGE. YOU sir are DELUSIONAL. This is SOOO not classic. Leashing? Seafuries nerfed? Limits on PAOE effects? Now the changes in ToV? Plus who knows how many other things I am missing. This isn't classic, it never was.

[loramin]

WHAT A LOAD OF GARBAGE. YOU sir are DELUSIONAL. This is SOOO not classic. Leashing? Seafuries nerfed? Limits on PAOE effects? Now the changes in ToV? Plus who knows how many other things I am missing.

The wiki has a whole collection of others:

http://wiki.project1999.com/Non-Classic_Compendium

But what you'll notice to all those is that there's a pattern. Sure there's the super rare "developer fiat" change like OOT having the wrong (or arguably right) east/west axis, but otherwise they only make things unclassic if they absolutely have to, for technical or CSR reasons.

And that makes perfect sense: we don't have the same client as live, and we don't have a paid team of GMs/Guides like live had, so of course that's going to mean some differences from live. But again, aside from the things like that the server is almost 100% classic. So while you're technically right with:

This isn't classic, it never was.

Don't let "perfect be the enemy of the good". P99 is about as classic as it can possibly be, and that's great for all of us who want to relive our EQ nostalgia 98.5% of the way ;)

[rekreant]

wipe blue so all legacy items are obtained in a truly classic world on green before being transferred to blue at the end of the timeline

this is how you save blue

^this guy already solved it.

[Jibartik]

Hey what about pre-nerf legacy items?

Are we going to see patch histories on green99 like this do you think? Like balancing changes on the scimitar of the mistwalker for example?

When it first dropped, the MW pet was a real pet... just with a low number of hit points. You could /pet back off before he got killed and hang onto him. Then you could buff him up, etc.

Guilds with a number of rangers/druids were passing around the MW until everyone had a buffed up level 45 dog pet prior to attacking big mobs. Since the MW pet can hit for 100-140 (if I remember right) and has double attack, that is a decent pet army for people who didn't normally have pets to be bringing into a fight.

Then the pet was changed so that he attacks for 1 round and then dies. I think he also has 1 hit point as well, and they restricted HP buffs so that they can't be cast on a target with less than 20 hit points.

Finally, the proc rate was lowered, then raised, then lowered again... It definately doesn't proc very often anymore, at least in druidic hands.

Would reaaaaaaally like to see something get killed with a dog army.

[Jibartik]

Another good example and question I have is will the Caster Class not have a damage cap for however many days/weeks/months before sony added one cus of this? https://wiki.project1999.com/Rod_of_Annihilation

There were so many exploits that would be awesome to see get taken advantage of for short periods of time for nerds on green but I also understand if that's insane.

[Jibartik]

Items like http://wiki.project1999.com/Terror_Forged_Mask are classic and most likely to remain true to their nerf dates. personally going to enjoy the mask myself, no worries there.

Yeah this, among a select few items will be the driving force in my first class choice but, what I speak of perticularly is like, the lesser known changes, fixes like no damage cap on caster melee until like X date or the scimitar of the mistwalker, having so many iterations of its OP behavor.

Im sure there are heaps more of mechanics that change, spawn behaviors of NPCs, etc.. are we going to see those patches on green99?

Tick mechanics on dots? Doing full damage on creatures you are kiting for months or so after launch? IIRC the dev's didnt even know kiting would be a thing when they made this game, it took a while before that change went into effect.

There must be so many, I remember on Rallos Zek, it was 2? 3? months 6? that you could do full damage with spells on other players, until they nerfed it to 60% (obviously not something anyone would need to be concered with on green, unless we wanted classic dueling heh)

Im just curious what level of hard core nerdyness nilgbog is up to these days in his computer tower.

[DMN]

So it begins. The amalgamation of the end. It was a fun run none the less and I'm sure some people will enjoy diablo seasons of EverQuest but this game is too fucking grindy for that type of system. Porting over toons from green to blue is also an incredibly bad idea--just delete green toons, what is the point of porting them over other than to bastardize blue even more? Anyways, see you on pantheon.

Blue had forever to farm the shit out of kunark/vanilla due to the 10 year patch cycle instead of 2 year one. Dumping more toons on it isn't going to do jackshit except make the permalosers who's only accomplishment in life is to have items that were removed that later players have no chance to get. Cry me a fucking river.

[fortior]

Red99 doesn't count, because playing Everquest with a total population of 20 inbred drug addict virgins, is not classic.

Actually this aspect means red is more classic than blue

Anyway, super interested to play on the new server full of neckbeards camping items like they're mining bitcoins or whatever

[zodium]

So it begins. The amalgamation of the end. It was a fun run none the less and I'm sure some people will enjoy diablo seasons of EverQuest but this game is too fucking grindy for that type of system. Porting over toons from green to blue is also an incredibly bad idea--just delete green toons, what is the point of porting them over other than to bastardize blue even more? Anyways, see you on pantheon.

actually we should push the competitive aspects of Green as much as possible, including and maybe especially carrying over characters to blue with full gear. you know why? because everquest is not a mechanically difficult game. it never was, it will never be. you know why I know that? because we tried to make everquest a mechanically difficult game on SoD, and it worked, and all that did was create a veritable mountain of steep-ass learning curve that every player had to climb to do end game content. it was always a doomed project. everquest will never be a difficult game because it's not designed to challenge you. it doesn't do that. what it does is let you trade your time for pixels to gamble for happybrain signals, and the payout rate is positive. the more you play, the more you win. that's all it is.

and it's a good idea. i sure like to gamble by moving my mouse in rhythmic patterns while hitting keys in different rhythmic patterns in my spare time, and p99 is a good vehicle for that. unfortunately, everquest was supposed to be like, a roleplaying game? so it's not a very good casino from a casino-operating standpoint. on p99, the main problem is that different people like to gamble in different ways, and all the different games have to take place in the same space. so the poker players have to compete with the slots players for that common space, and strangely enough, the gaggle of ludomaniacs just can't agree to stop playing their game of choice so someone else can play theirs.

if the poker players and slots players can't coexist and they can't agree to share the common space, then the obvious solution is to set up a section with poker tables and a section with slot machines. Green is the obvious poker tables section. it'll be so short that most adults simply will not have enough playtime to experience "everquest as it was", even to the extent they did back in classic. but the poker players will lap that up. the finite timeline only makes it more competitive and hence more appealing. meanwhile, everyone else can continue to happily frolick on Blue. sure the competitive players will also play on Blue, but even they have only so much time. even if everyone doesn't live happily ever after, they'll at least live slightly happier.

similarly for the economic effects on legacy items and other ~aspirational content~, my experience is that people want legacy items. bigly. they want manastones. regardless of whether or not they already own one, though, they also don't want manastones to drop. worse, as vets keep burning out and leaving, the number of manastones on Blue to be acquired goes to zero. rolling characters into Blue unabridged is the perfect solution to that problem. competitive players will lock down those camps with organized teams on Green in any event. and if competitive nerds are going to lock down time-limited drops no matter what, why not make it do some good by rolling characters over fully geared so we can get some more manastones and lockets going for the common adventurer who doesn't have half a million sitting around?

no reason at all. a maximally competitive Green is the best possible thing that could happen for both Green and Blue, and a maximally competitive Green is a Green where the gear rolls into Blue. :o

[fortior]

Despite the idea that the legacy items will be camped and price manipulated to stay expensive forever, supply go up -> price go down. This always works.

[DMN]

Despite the idea that the legacy items will be camped and price manipulated to stay expensive forever, supply go up -> price go down. This always works.

Not when a select group of people hoard the item and it's not added to the supply or only marginally impacts the supply.

[Tethler]

Despite the idea that the legacy items will be camped and price manipulated to stay expensive forever, supply go up -> price go down. This always works.

Fungi tunics would like a word with you.

[fortior]

Not when a select group of people hoard the item and it's not added to the supply or only marginally impacts the supply.

If people want to extract value from the manastones they farmed, they have to add to the supply. Demand stays the same since they're manastones, so even if 1 person gets them all each manastone they sell is one added to the supply. The most they can do is slow down the rate of price reduction

[Jhaerik]

For the record this whole ridiculous issue is caused by enforcing camp rules, and no KS'ing.

In real EQ you'd just roll into their camp if they were taking too long and take it over. This is literally just a case of private server over policing. Just like they do with multiboxing and other perfectly legit live server play styles.

Where there are laws... there are lawyers... and no one likes lawyers.

[Jibartik]

guys if ur woried about the bitcoin value of your pixel that might be the problem.

im going to have a blast in tattered and will be getting to 50 way before you do because I am better at this game than you are!

[fortior]

Unironically thinking about a self-found gimmick as enchanter or monk (monk would be better flavor of course)

[DMN]

If people want to extract value from the manastones they farmed, they have to add to the supply. Demand stays the same since they're manastones, so even if 1 person gets them all each manastone they sell is one added to the supply. The most they can do is slow down the rate of price reduction

Before going all Adam Smith here, you might want to check out what a monopoly is and how that all works with supply/demand.

[Argh]

The whole point of green is to recreate the classic to velious timeline as accurately as possible. I wouldn’t hold your breath for customizing content.

[azeth]

itt Fortior exercises his Economics 201 prowess

[fortior]

Before going all Adam Smith here, you might want to check out what a monopoly is and how that all works with supply/demand.

Even with a complete monopoly whichever neckbeard is farming them is only adding to the total amount of manastones, which means that at some point between now and the heat death of the universe, I will be able to afford one

Yeah, they could hoard all the stones instead of selling them, but then they're not getting any plat either, and lets be real people are going to camp that stuff for plat (and their rent/a new car)

[Jimjam]

Even with a complete monopoly whichever neckbeard is farming them is only adding to the total amount of manastones, which means that at some point between now and the heat death of the universe, I will be able to afford one

Yeah, they could hoard all the stones instead of selling them, but then they're not getting any plat either, and lets be real people are going to camp that stuff for plat (and their rent/a new car)

Old stones leave the market, either on dead accounts or on characters that will never sell. New characters are rolled everyday, new players join the server.

Perhaps one day you will be right, and the interplay will mean you can find one at the right price for you. Honestly I think you are underestimating how draconic players sitting on mountains of wealth are.

I don't think the stone will ever be at a price I'd be willing to pay; in a post vanilla Everquest it seems rather a gimmick.

[Jibartik]

The whole point of green is to recreate the classic to velious timeline as accurately as possible. I wouldn’t hold your breath for customizing content.

Hmm but what Im wondering about is specificly related to creating classic to velious timeline as accurately as possible...

So in that case, it would be custom content to NOT raise the damage cap on casters for the first expansion or to allow guilds to raid with Scimitars and dog armies for months.

Which I'm very ok with, but I just dont think that everyone else would be is why I ask heh

Can I expect to do full damage with dots while I kite a mob without rooting it or fearing it? That would be classic, the opposite would be custom content :)