FTE Race Lines

[Tricket]

Hi, looking for written rules on the following in regards to FTE targets:

1) Where must FTErs start while their trackers wait for a pop?
example: I was told for Kelorek, you must be inside the druid rings of Cobalt Scar. For Gorenaire, you must not be further than the tunnel-mouth in Dreadlands. What other targets have restrictions, and where are they?

2) Where can non-fte players hang out? I'd think it only matters where you start to run and get FTE, not where you bring the mob to kill it. Does EVERYONE you intend to kill a target with have to be at the 'start line' or further back?
example: Last night I beat Blood Guard to the FTE on Kelorek but was instantly bombarded with tells about my guildies standing outside the rings - If the players outside the ring are not making any movements towards the target, why does it matter if they are chilling in the zone waiting for a successful FTE?

I'm looking for some GM messages specifying the rules, as I could not see them on the Raid Rules forum post.
Thanks,
T

[Argh]

Everything is usually at the zone line, except for zones like the ones you listed that don't really have a clear zone line. The only ones I can think of not on your list would be Fay, which uses Ogre Island, and for anything inside Hate/Fear people wait outside--though, I don't know what people do for hate minis or fear golems.

Anyone beyond the starting line is considered a tracker, regardless of if they're going to participate in fte or not.

[Oleris]

Dain Frostreaver IV: Behind the archway just past the zone line.
Faydedar: On the island with the Ogre camp (#1 on wiki map).
Gorenaire: At the druid rings.
Kael Drakkal: Behind the ice/snow line at the Wakening Lands zone line.
Kelorek`Dar: At the zone in rings or Siren's Grotto zone line.
Lady Vox: Before the ladder at the zone in.
Lord Nagafen: In the entrance tunnel from Lavastorm.
Lord Yelinak: At the fountain to Cobalt Scar or Wakening Lands zone line.
Severilous: At the Field of Bone or Trakanon's Teeth zone lines.
Sleeper's Tomb: Behind the entrance door.
Talendor: At the Burning Woods or Overthere zone lines.
Temple of Veeshan: Behind the bottom step just past the entrance door.
Trakanon: At the zone in.
Veeshan's Peak: On the blue entrance pad.
Venril Sathir: The hallway between the entrance zonelines.
Zlandicar: Behind the zone in portal.
---
Plane of Fear: At the PoF portal in Feerrott.
Plane of Hate: Anywhere not in Hate unless actively clearing with a raid force.

[Expediency]

Anyone beyond the starting line is considered a tracker, regardless of if they're going to participate in fte or not.

This is very important to remember if your guild is going after VS in KC or trak in sebilis and you are trying to exp in those locations

[Dugface]

For Gorenaire, one says the druid rings while the other says the tunnel entrance. What does the official rulebook state?

[Argh]

I've never seen the tunnel mouth used. I've always waited at FV/KC zoneline.

[aaezil]

Gore is port in rings. You wont find a gm rule on it though because there isnt besides “zoneline” whatever that means

[Yoink1986]

BG complaining about kelorek lol.

[Swish2]

What happens if there's a false start/someone goes too soon?

[feniin]

Dain Frostreaver IV: Behind the archway just past the zone line.
Faydedar: On the island with the Ogre camp (#1 on wiki map).
Gorenaire: At the druid rings.
Kael Drakkal: Behind the ice/snow line at the Wakening Lands zone line.
Kelorek`Dar: At the zone in rings or Siren's Grotto zone line.
Lady Vox: Before the ladder at the zone in.
Lord Nagafen: In the entrance tunnel from Lavastorm.
Lord Yelinak: At the fountain to Cobalt Scar or Wakening Lands zone line.
Severilous: At the Field of Bone or Trakanon's Teeth zone lines.
Sleeper's Tomb: Behind the entrance door.
Talendor: At the Burning Woods or Overthere zone lines.
Temple of Veeshan: Behind the bottom step just past the entrance door.
Trakanon: At the zone in.
Veeshan's Peak: On the blue entrance pad.
Venril Sathir: The hallway between the entrance zonelines.
Zlandicar: Behind the zone in portal.
---
Plane of Fear: At the PoF portal in Feerrott.
Plane of Hate: Anywhere not in Hate unless actively clearing with a raid force.

[DiogenesThaDogg]

What happens if there's a false start/someone goes too soon?

If your FTEer is past zone line then a pop happens then they go FTE, that's a DQ. Otherwise, as long as the mob is not up yet, you can have as many people in the zone wherever you want (don't actually).

[aaezil]

What happens if there's a false start/someone goes too soon?

Perma forum ban if you do that

[enesis]

I've never seen the tunnel mouth used. I've always waited at FV/KC zoneline.

Guilds started working on the list quoted above because recently Gorenaire FTErs started sitting at the tunnel between port areas/Dreadlands instead of the normal spots. This was an issue because 1) it's a spot which seems to violate the raid rules; 2) other guilds are at an a disadvantage because they have no idea the closer spot is being used.

[Legidias]

They made rings because other guilds were mad bards could outrun their coth exploit fte. True story

[enesis]

I've been trying to get guilds to agree to no casting CoTH on FTErs for outdoor kunark raid targets.

[pogs4ever]

Coth should get a “your gate is unstable and collapses” critical failure

[loramin]

Dain Frostreaver IV: Behind the archway just past the zone line.
Faydedar: On the island with the Ogre camp (#1 on wiki map).
Gorenaire: At the druid rings.
Kael Drakkal: Behind the ice/snow line at the Wakening Lands zone line.
Kelorek`Dar: At the zone in rings or Siren's Grotto zone line.
Lady Vox: Before the ladder at the zone in.
Lord Nagafen: In the entrance tunnel from Lavastorm.
Lord Yelinak: At the fountain to Cobalt Scar or Wakening Lands zone line.
Severilous: At the Field of Bone or Trakanon's Teeth zone lines.
Sleeper's Tomb: Behind the entrance door.
Talendor: At the Burning Woods or Overthere zone lines.
Temple of Veeshan: Behind the bottom step just past the entrance door.
Trakanon: At the zone in.
Veeshan's Peak: On the blue entrance pad.
Venril Sathir: The hallway between the entrance zonelines.
Zlandicar: Behind the zone in portal.
---
Plane of Fear: At the PoF portal in Feerrott.
Plane of Hate: Anywhere not in Hate unless actively clearing with a raid force.


This seemed like something that should be general knowledge, so I wikified it:

http://wiki.project1999.com/FTE_Race_Lines

If there are any changes to these lines (or if I got the rules summary at the top wrong in any way) please feel free to correct it yourself; it's a wiki!

[rezzie]

I recently sought clarifications around DQs. This is my understanding, which Llandris confirmed is in line with the current rules:

Natural Spawns
You are DQd from a target if you have more than two past the line when it spawns, unless your entire raid force:

leaves the wing if in ToV; or
returns to the blue pad if in VP; or
was in PoH and actively clearing when a Innoruuk or a mini spawned.

In any other instance you remain DQd from that target until it dies and will face concessions and loot deletion if you engage.

Two past the line includes everyone with your guild tag. People not going for FTE, people AFK somewhere in zone, people in an XP group who don't even attend your raid, etc. all count toward the two tracker limit.

Earthquakes
You are not DQd from any targets as long as your entire raid force:

leaves the wing if in ToV; or
zones out if in any planes; or
returns to the zone line if in any other zone.

If you engage without doing this you are getting tracker FTE and will be forced to concede (and face loot deletion).

---

The FTE lines in the new raid rules effectively define the closest point your FTErs or raid forces can stand - anyone past those lines are "trackers".

You're free to set up elsewhere if you so choose, but you must be further back than the defined line.

[pogs4ever]

Two past the line includes everyone with your guild tag. People not going for FTE, people AFK somewhere in zone, people in an XP group who don't even attend your raid, etc. all count toward the two tracker limit.



I do not concede.

The leveling guilds should decide this by-law. They have little input to the raid scene, stay out the leveling scene.

[rezzie]

I do not concede.

The leveling guilds should decide this by-law. They have little input to the raid scene, stay out the leveling scene.

It's not my rule - it's what the server rules currently dictate.

I think it's silly to penalise guilds who have XPers who take no part in a raid, though it does get harder to police.

[pogs4ever]

Oh I know it’s not your rule.

It just adversely affects guilds that may not be at the summit.

[pogs4ever]

Also please disable pet tracking. Tracker rules don’t even make sense with everyone smashing pet attack at zoneline anyways

[Xaeophi]

the /pet attack macros on loop. with gina alerting them across the room that the mob popped. Classic........................?

[feniin]

Having a level 51 xping in LCY in Karnor shouldn't DQ a guild from VS. Same with someone in a Disco group in Seb DQing a guild from Trak. Or someone porting in to EJ on their way to CoM to DQ someone from Sev.

Have a little common sense. If the person who gets FTE starts fair and square the the mob is killed in an appropriate manner, the stray passers by and leveling members shouldn't influence your eligibility.

[Expediency]

Having a level 51 xping in LCY in Karnor shouldn't DQ a guild from VS. Same with someone in a Disco group in Seb DQing a guild from Trak. Or someone porting in to EJ on their way to CoM to DQ someone from Sev.

Have a little common sense. If the person who gets FTE starts fair and square the the mob is killed in an appropriate manner, the stray passers by and leveling members shouldn't influence your eligibility.

99% of people agree with you. This is probably the most hated raid rule on p99. It is very difficult to explain to new players/recruits why they cant exp while a mob is in window, but this rule is 5+ years old and would require a lot of politics to change it. If you're exping and the mob pops and someone presses the issue you have no defense.

KC/Seb are the most affected zones but certainly not the only ones. Cant name any examples of anyone being penalized for the sev example in EJ but its probably happened. I am not sure what you can do to avoid that one other than have one tracker and only one guild member traversing the zone at the time.

[pogs4ever]

I’d like to hear the rationale the 1% have for the xp-er/traveler rule

[feniin]

99% of people agree with you. This is probably the most hated raid rule on p99. It is very difficult to explain to new players/recruits why they cant exp while a mob is in window, but this rule is 5+ years old and would require a lot of politics to change it. If you're exping and the mob pops and someone presses the issue you have no defense.

KC/Seb are the most affected zones but certainly not the only ones. Cant name any examples of anyone being penalized for the sev example in EJ but its probably happened. I am not sure what you can do to avoid that one other than have one tracker and only one guild member traversing the zone at the time.

It's one of those rules that I would like to see someone try to enforce. If those people aren't on the encounter log I don't see how you could ask for a concession/petition it. It would be petty AF to petition because some random AEGIS member who just wants to cross Dreadlands to get to Firiona Vie because his guild was killing Gorenaire.

[Expediency]

It's one of those rules that I would like to see someone try to enforce. If those people aren't on the encounter log I don't see how you could ask for a concession/petition it. It would be petty AF to petition because some random AEGIS member who just wants to cross Dreadlands to get to Firiona Vie because his guild was killing Gorenaire.

I have not ever seen these rules enforced on sev and gore (doesnt mean it hasnt happened) but they are enforced on a regular basis for trak and VS, especially during the kunark era when those mobs were highly contested every spawn. People are less anal now but its still something everyone should keep in mind. Our guild will generally make note of it in the motd if we are targeting that mob. I was an active recruiting officer in our guild for quite a while and this was my least favorite conversation to have, people got really salty and I cant blame them.

There is a rather unpredictable element of "how much the other party cares." If you are in one guild, and you see another guild win the FTE for VS even though a level 50 monk was pulling in the RCY, you get to make a decision whether to petition it or let it slide.

The only real counter to this rule other than leaving the area is to /guildremove yourself during the window and add yourself back later. I've never gone that far but plenty have.

[HippoNipple]

Lol you have gm enforced rules on where you can stand? Why do you guys put up with that shit? What a great way to ruin a sandbox mmo. Why don't they just make instances instead of these rules if that is how they want the game to be?

[Hibbs]

Lol you have gm enforced rules on where you can stand? Why do you guys put up with that shit? What a great way to ruin a sandbox mmo. Why don't they just make instances instead of these rules if that is how they want the game to be?

Fantastic input in the thread. Thanks.

[Maliant]

Not sure if above dude trolling but the fact it’s a sandbox game is why we rely on player and GM enforces rules. Otherwise it would be horrendous. Trainfests, DPS races and ninja looting galore.

[HippoNipple]

If someone does something like ninja loot then you banish them from any guild or social interaction. You can also lock corpses and have classes that can train away mobs. I understand you guys wouldn't be able to handle trains and that should be illegal but the rest of this crap you guys argue about every day is a joke. You are arguing one extreme to the other. I can't handle trains so GMs decide where I can and can't stand. It just seems really demeaning to be an adult playing a video game and be owned so hard by the server rules.

[rezzie]

Not sure where training comes into this?

The point of the lines is just to make sure everyone starts from the same place so nobody has an unfair advantage.

They've been around forever but never documented. They were finally formalised and posted publicly.

[feniin]

I think we really need to discuss the guildies in the zone that are travelling/XPing. If they're not participating in the fight, it shouldn't DQ your whole guild, just those players. Basically cripples a guild like Kittens or an alliance like AEGIS because there are players of every level.

[rezzie]

I agree. Probably something that gets hammered out this weekend.

[pogs4ever]

Dawn believers is fighting for FTE’s now too and has a leveling component to their org.

[Expediency]

I can't handle trains so GMs decide where I can and can't stand. It just seems really demeaning to be an adult playing a video game and be owned so hard by the server rules.

Where do adults run a racing competition of any type that does not feature an agreed upon starting line?

Players can and have renegotiated racing start lines in the past: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263237

[Dugface]

Dawn believers is fighting for FTE’s now too and has a leveling component to their org.

As well as an unhealthy obsession with Lodizal. How many dkp do you get per Lodi kill?

[HippoNipple]

Where do adults run a racing competition of any type that does not feature an agreed upon starting line?

Players can and have renegotiated racing start lines in the past: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263237

I was responding to the player above my post.

[Muggens]

It just seems really demeaning to be an adult playing a video game and be owned so hard by the server rules.

We're all trained to be complient

[Oleris]

https://i.imgur.com/BR3aJs3.gif

[loramin]

https://i.imgur.com/BR3aJs3.gif

Don't listen to him, he's not even with Starfleet anymore ;)

[Puluin]

*EDIT* apparently I did not see that llandris quietly updated the raid faq to include this list... however I see zero discussion or agreement from the different raiding guilds regarding this... Looks like this list was added on a whim without any real thought behind it.

This seemed like something that should be general knowledge, so I wikified it:

http://wiki.project1999.com/FTE_Race_Lines

If there are any changes to these lines (or if I got the rules summary at the top wrong in any way) please feel free to correct it yourself; it's a wiki!

This list would be wonderfully ideal if it weren't for the fact some.of these zones have several legit zonelines.
Cobalt scar has two 2-way zonelines ( true zone lines ) and two 1-way zone lines. If a portal ring is considered a legit zonelines while being only a 1-way zone in, you must also consider the PoM 1-way zone in as a legit zoneline.

Now there could be an argument made for using the 1-way zone in prior to pop. I.e. should 1-way zones be treated like plane of fear where people must wait outside until pop?

However, both SS and SG zonelines are legit 2-way zonelines and in no way go against the fte rules as far as a starting line goes.

Sol B - this zone also has several legit 2-way zonelines, while most are not viable choices, the rear zoneline between sola and solb is in fact a legit zoneline as far as the fte rules state.

Without specific clarification and addition to our current fte rules there is little to no reason for someone to believe there is any difference between a given zoneline whether that be a port ring/spire, a 2-way zoneline, or a 1-way zoneline.

TL:DR this wiki page would be ideal if the zonelines were in fact clarified. However, they are not and this list is merely an unofficial interpretation of the facts without any real confirmation and merely serves to cause more confusing arguments between players.

[loramin]

*EDIT* apparently I did not see that llandris quietly updated the raid faq to include this list... however I see zero discussion or agreement from the different raiding guilds regarding this... Looks like this list was added on a whim without any real thought behind it.



This list would be wonderfully ideal if it weren't for the fact some.of these zones have several legit zonelines.
Cobalt scar has two 2-way zonelines ( true zone lines ) and two 1-way zone lines. If a portal ring is considered a legit zonelines while being only a 1-way zone in, you must also consider the PoM 1-way zone in as a legit zoneline.

Now there could be an argument made for using the 1-way zone in prior to pop. I.e. should 1-way zones be treated like plane of fear where people must wait outside until pop?

However, both SS and SG zonelines are legit 2-way zonelines and in no way go against the fte rules as far as a starting line goes.

Sol B - this zone also has several legit 2-way zonelines, while most are not viable choices, the rear zoneline between sola and solb is in fact a legit zoneline as far as the fte rules state.

Without specific clarification and addition to our current fte rules there is little to no reason for someone to believe there is any difference between a given zoneline whether that be a port ring/spire, a 2-way zoneline, or a 1-way zoneline.

TL:DR this wiki page would be ideal if the zonelines were in fact clarified. However, they are not and this list is merely an unofficial interpretation of the facts without any real confirmation and merely serves to cause more confusing arguments between players.

Sounds like something you should ask your guild representative to raise at the guild summit.

[zodium]

If a portal ring is considered a legit zonelines while being only a 1-way zone in, you must also consider the PoM 1-way zone in as a legit zoneline.

Why?

[rezzie]

*EDIT* apparently I did not see that llandris quietly updated the raid faq to include this list... however I see zero discussion or agreement from the different raiding guilds regarding this... Looks like this list was added on a whim without any real thought behind it.

It was discussed amongst a number of guilds who all agreed that the list posted by Llandris was basically in line with current rules and conventions. The list is merely to document what people currently use so everyone could be on the same page.

This list would be wonderfully ideal if it weren't for the fact some.of these zones have several legit zonelines.

We could go round the houses all day where to make lines, but the posted ones seemed fair and conventional.

TL:DR this wiki page would be ideal if the zonelines were in fact clarified. However, they are not and this list is merely an unofficial interpretation of the facts without any real confirmation and merely serves to cause more confusing arguments between players.

It's posted by staff in the raid rules; it's as official as it's ever going to be.

The lines are now clearly posted so there's no hidden ruleset. How is this more confusing than before?

[Puluin]

If a portal ring is considered a legit zonelines while being only a 1-way zone in, you must also consider the PoM 1-way zone in as a legit zoneline.


Why?

Because they act in the same manner. Both are a 1-way zone in from a different place, with the ability to zone in from PoM being much more restrictive in the sense you must take the risk to even GET to PoM. Opposed to a port which can be done from any location.

It was discussed amongst a number of guilds who all agreed that the list posted by Llandris was basically in line with current rules and conventions. The list is merely to document what people currently use so everyone could be on the same page.

Where was this discussion from guild leaders? I know i've been gone for a bit, but i am failing to find any discussion on the raid forum (which is where the guild leaders should be discussing stuff like this...)

The lines are now clearly posted so there's no hidden ruleset. How is this more confusing than before?
you obviously missed my edit stating i did not see that llandris posted it...

[rezzie]

Where was this discussion from guild leaders? I know i've been gone for a bit, but i am failing to find any discussion on the raid forum (which is where the guild leaders should be discussing stuff like this...)

The raid forum is woefully outdated atm and most current guild/raid leaders can't post there. The discussion was in a Discord channel with Aegis, AG, AM, BG, Core, PS as far as I know. Everyone there agreed the posted list was effectively the de facto standard, so documented it.

Llandris posted it so everyone is held to the same rules and not just a subset of guilds.

[Puluin]

The raid forum is woefully outdated atm and most current guild/raid leaders can't post there. The discussion was in a Discord channel with Aegis, AG, AM, BG, Core, PS as far as I know. Everyone there agreed the posted list was effectively the de facto standard, so documented it.

Llandris posted it so everyone is held to the same rules and not just a subset of guilds.

Thank you for the much better and clarified info. While I feel annoyed it was not more publicly discussed or acknowledged such a discussion was taking place, I do appreciate the more specific information. I suppose all I can do now is hope my own guild leader is doing his diligence in participating.

Thank you.