Lull line -- some empirical testing on CHA and crit resist rates

[A1551]

So between numerous characters of mine who use various lull lines, I've really wanted to put some numbers to the effect of charisma on reducing crit resist rates. Specifically I am always wondering if for example pulling on a paladin, it is worth the effort to switch in a +20 cha item or the like. Looking around the forums, there are many discussions on it, but I couldn't find anyone actually put some real numbers to the topic. If anyone does know of such a thread please let me know!

So I tested as follows on my lvl 60 chanter:

-Found a mob who would always resist, and I could safely then zone away from. In this case it was a yellow con gate guard in nektulos named sergeant c'orm (lvl 61 per wiki).

-used soothe just because I could cast it forever without running out of mana. No idea if different incarnations of the spell would change any of this. Probably not?

-Did two test sets, one at base CHA for my chanter (95) and one right smack at 200. Idea was to maximize differences in the data sets without confounding things with any diminishing returns on CHA over 200 (if that is indeed the mechanic).

-Each test I went for 200 RESISTS, to measure crit resist rate vs resists. Not an amazing data set, but I was fairly confident it would show something. Way more would obviously be better. Anyone who wants to complain is free to repeat this and add to the sample! note for sample size, I originally only did 100 of each, then felt it was inadequate and expanded it to 200. The results were essentially unchanged (literally +/-about a percentage point), so I would say the high level conclusions are at least in line with reality.

Note soothe doesn't work on mobs that high -- it always resists. This was actually a boon as I could get a resist every cast. At first I was worried this might in some way impact the test, ie resists because the spell is ineligible on target would not crit or something, but this was not the case.
Finally, this data doesn't show if crit resist rates are at all level based vs just purely charisma based. Obviously resist rates are level based.

As to my results:
95 Cha, 200 tests -- 71 critical resists (ie 35.5% crit rate)
200 Cha, 200 tests -- 15 critical resists (ie 7% crit rate)
Not surprising, but a very large difference. So roughly speaking, between 4-5x the crit resist rate in this data set. While the sample size *really* isn't big enough to go to this level of analysis, basically +105 CHA saved me 56 crit resists over 200 attempts(!) That would be roughly 0.26% absolute crit reduction per point of cha assuming a linear progression up to 200 CHA.

Going back to the hypotheticals from the beginning of my post, equipping a +20 cha item just for pulling, based on this data set, would be worth something like a 5% absolute reduction in lull crit resists, ie, if a puller got 20 lull resists, one time theyd avoid a crit due to the item. Which honestly ain't bad.

Ok, so some other thoughts, I don't know if CHA over 200 has diminishing returns, I'd assume so, if I am feeling motivated I may run another test at my best cha (which is roughly 250)

Likewise, I wonder if the target level has any impact on crit resist rate. My GUESS is no, but I could be way off. There is a lvl 50 gate guard right next to the guy I used for this test who is also conveniently immune to soothe so maybe if I can find the motivation I'll do that as well!

Finally, I don't know if different classes handle the same spell lines differently, like for all I know enchanter charisma works better for soothe than on a paladin, even though it is the exact same spell scroll

Anyway, this has sort of been bugging me a little in the back of my brain for years to do some testing on, and I finally got around to doing it tonight. I hope some other people find it of use, too!

[Synthlol]

A+

[bradsamma]

This is amazing.

[Jimjam]

Now do one for critical fails on begging!

[saftbudet]

Thank you for the time you put in and for posting results.

[elwing]

There is a reason my bard on live had 255 cha for ldon... Averaging maybe 4lull resist with rarely agro..

[Izmael]

Amazing job.

Please repeat with 255 CHA :)

[DMN]

There is a reason my bard on live had 255 cha for ldon... Averaging maybe 4lull resist with rarely agro..

Cha wasn't anywhere near that effective on live, however.

[elwing]

Pretty certain it was, or at least at 255, I rarely had agro on failures

[TomisFeline]

awesome awesome
the 250 Cha test would also be super interesting

[fadetree]

Nice work. So, you say these are immune to soothes...is that because they are actually flagged as immune or just because they have some kind of very large resistance? If they are actually flagged as immune, I wonder if that might affect the mechanics.

[Atmas]

Very nice work.

I've long been wondering if the different spells in the line Lull, Soothe etc. have different resist rates and effectiveness against varying mobs levels. It was my understanding on live this was not the case, that they only varied in their duration and agro/social radius. However, P99 may have been coded differently.

[Crede]

So between numerous characters of mine who use various lull lines, I've really wanted to put some numbers to the effect of charisma on reducing crit resist rates. Specifically I am always wondering if for example pulling on a paladin, it is worth the effort to switch in a +20 cha item or the like.

It's clear from your test results, but yes I always carried CHA gear on my Pally for a sketchy pull. The Luminary 2H sword that procs Glamour is a godsend for this too. Totally worth it, doesn't take long to swap in big CHA items.

[rezzie]

This is awesome. Thanks for doing it :)

[deezy]

I love this post. Great job!

[DMN]

Pretty certain it was, or at least at 255, I rarely had agro on failures

Nah. i think a lot of the resists, especially crit lull, are way too favorable on P99.

[Abominog]

Very nice work.

I've long been wondering if the different spells in the line Lull, Soothe etc. have different resist rates and effectiveness against varying mobs levels. It was my understanding on live this was not the case, that they only varied in their duration and agro/social radius. However, P99 may have been coded differently.

I wonder the same. I believe the higher spells have fewer critical resists based on my experience playing enchanter on blue and red. However, my charisma also increased around the time I acquired the spells so I might be mistakenly attributing the reduction of critical failures to the spell.

[Puluin]

Nice work. So, you say these are immune to soothes...is that because they are actually flagged as immune or just because they have some kind of very large resistance? If they are actually flagged as immune, I wonder if that might affect the mechanics.

The mobs he tested this on were immune to the spell used due to mobs level. Soothe has a lower level cap.

From a bard point of view; we get 1 lull song that caps at 55? Will not work on mobs 56+... however I will not get agro off of the higher level mobs unless lull actually critical fails.

I don't have numbers or logs, but from appearances, I seem to have a much much easier time consistently landing lull on high level mobs compared to pal or enc.
I rarely have more than 150 cha and typically float at 141 during these lulls.
However, regardless of what other people say about wind modifier ( claims that it doesn't work ) I have personally experienced a consistent lower rate of critical fails while using the 25mod flute from PoG compared to no flute.

[Legidias]

PoG flute has +CHA on it. WInd still only modifies -MR on mezzes.


Lvl >>>>>>>>>> cha > anyhthing else for lull

[indiscriminate_hater]

Fantastic work, good to see someone actually providing numbers.


Likewise, I wonder if the target level has any impact on crit resist rate. My GUESS is no, but I could be way off.

Considering how highly dependent general spell resistance is upon level, I would think crit resists for this are as well. But, I don't have the numbers to back it up.

[Puluin]

PoG flute has +CHA on it. WInd still only modifies -MR on mezzes.


Lvl >>>>>>>>>> cha > anyhthing else for lull

My comments were meant as a comparison between a 60 bard, 60 enc, and 60 pal. Enc and pal have 200+ cha and 9/10 times its the 60 bard with 150 cha that has the most consistent ease with lulls on mobs 45-55

It has +8cha which I feel is insignificant in affecting overall resist rates.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Flute_of_the_Sacred_Glade

Also I realize people claim wind only affects -Mr on mez, but in personal experiences, especially in kael, my lull fail rate without using the flute seems to be about 25%
While using the flute it seems to be dropped to 5-10% less fail.
Basically if I throw on the flute, I can 99% be assured I won't pull a train due to critical fail.

I have intentionally spent full nights in kael not using the flute and a following night using the flute to see differences.

I have also noticed charm lands more consistent whIle using the flute as well.

[abyssalstalker]

This is fantastic work. I have heavily considered picking up a CHA set on my Cleric to use for lull situations since I can't regular invis. This data now cements that idea.

FYI, on my enchanter I have always used the spell Calm from the lull line and it's pretty miraculous. I can give KOS mobs a kiss and they won't aggro me. I never went for a higher or lower level version. Unsure if there are even benefits to them. Anyone have thoughts?

Edit: Please test at 250/255 CHA. I am extremely interested if it has a similar per point impact as up to 200, or if any at all.

[A1551]

Nice work. So, you say these are immune to soothes...is that because they are actually flagged as immune or just because they have some kind of very large resistance? If they are actually flagged as immune, I wonder if that might affect the mechanics.

As another poster mentioned, they are immune by virtue of the spells not working on mobs past a certain level. I was concerned this would cause issues, but based on the actual results I think it is fairly safe to say the game just treats the immunity as a resist and then checks for a crit. It is certainly possible, if not likely, that something else goes on behind the scenes, like maybe the game reports each cast out as a resist, but in reality, behind the scenes some of the non crits are factoring as "immune" successes and then some as resists, and only checking for crits vs the resists. But I'd say it is pretty unlikely for many reasons. Of course I'd never rule it out completely.

A much more plausible shortcoming of my testing (which I do want to do another trial on when I have some time) is if there is a level component to the crit chance -- IE are higher level mobs more likely to crit resist than lower level ones. That would change the conclusions and make the rules less easy to weigh, although it wouldn't invalidate the findings as much as make them more complicated. It would turn the above analysis into more of a "worst case scenario" of when you're lulling high level mobs. My guess is the "level" component is factored in via the resist rate, ie, you get more crit resists on higher level mobs because you get more resists (and thus more chances to crit). But it is entirely plausible there is a double penalty and level increases the crit rate too!

[A1551]

I don't have numbers or logs, but from appearances, I seem to have a much much easier time consistently landing lull on high level mobs compared to pal or enc.
I rarely have more than 150 cha and typically float at 141 during these lulls.


I've got a mid 40's bard and I really did feel like, even compared to my (almost) max cha enchanter, I could lull all day with very rare crit resists, with a cha in the ~110 range. I always hypothesized this was inherent to the song line to balance the very short duration of the song (ie, a bard often needs to lull and then re-lull multiple mobs before a pull where a pally/chanter/cleric stick it and are done). I wonder if this is my imagination, or by design, and or accurate for the era, haha. Regardless, not something im interested in testing! But I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if it was true.


Finally as to a 255 cha test, I'll do one with a sample of 200 as well. Except it'll be CHA 247 because that's what I got!

[abyssalstalker]

Finally as to a 255 cha test, I'll do one with a sample of 200 as well. Except it'll be CHA 247 because that's what I got!

I'm willing to lend items that will make up the difference to get you to 255.

Please contact me and we can figure something out.

[Lojik]

Propo playing again?

[Zipity]

The mobs he tested this on were immune to the spell used due to mobs level. Soothe has a lower level cap.

From a bard point of view; we get 1 lull song that caps at 55? Will not work on mobs 56+... however I will not get agro off of the higher level mobs unless lull actually critical fails.

I don't have numbers or logs, but from appearances, I seem to have a much much easier time consistently landing lull on high level mobs compared to pal or enc.
I rarely have more than 150 cha and typically float at 141 during these lulls.
However, regardless of what other people say about wind modifier ( claims that it doesn't work ) I have personally experienced a consistent lower rate of critical fails while using the 25mod flute from PoG compared to no flute.

I have on multiple occasions lulled PoZ’s in Kael which are lvl 56. Also some lvl 56 neriads in SG can’t definitively say I’ve lulled anything 57+ though!

[A1551]

Ok, abyssal actually hooked me up with a few things to bump my charisma to 255 (thanks!) and I was able to run another 200 attempts.

in 200 attempts, at 255 CHA, 12 crit resists, or a 6% rate.

Just as a reminder, the results from original test were:
95 Cha, 200 tests -- 71 critical resists (ie 35.5% crit rate)
200 Cha, 200 tests -- 15 critical resists (ie 7% crit rate)

So it sounds like CHA over 200 has a much reduced impact on crit resists, and it is possible it has none at all, although my money is on "much smaller impact." The differences are so small, I think substantially larger sample sizes would be needed to confidently elicit the differences. Unlike 95 vs 200, where a few crits here or there doesn't meaningfully change the results, comparing 200 vs 255 the difference between "does nothing" and "diminished returns" is very easily lost to a little bit of random noise.

I will, at some point, still do the test on mob level and crit chance. I'll probably just do one set of 200 attempts at either 200 or 95 cha vs a lvl 50 gate guard and compare it to the results I got vs the lvl 61 mob.

ps -- lojik! whats up!

[DMN]

Interesting. At least it looks as though they have the huge stat efficacy drop off that happens at 200 stat points about right.

Even though 6% versus 7% doesn't seem that big, relatively speaking it's still a 17% lesser chance to get aggro.

[A1551]

Interesting. At least it looks as though they have the huge stat efficacy drop off that happens at 200 stat points about right.

Even though 6% versus 7% doesn't seem that big, relatively speaking it's still a 17% lesser chance to get aggro.

You're right it actually is a fairly big "difference" in terms of gameplay despite the minute change.

Another way to look at this, if you're fighting low blue mobs consistently and lull is resisting only 1/4 times (these numbers are pulled from my ass for the sake of an estimate only, I have no idea what it would actually be, although I feel like low blues generally rarely resist so this may even be conservative), with the Crit rates above, you'd basically be getting a crit failure every:

95 cha (35.5%) - Crit every 11.3 casts
200 cha (7%) - Crit every 57.1 casts
255 cha (6%) - Crit every 66.7 casts

(assuming I did my math right hah)

I mean, that makes CHA sound pretty valuable as a pulling aid right up to 255. However I still really want to emphasize that the 7% vs 6% is such a small difference for a sample size of 200 that it could easily be noise and it is possible there is not actually any benefit above 200. I seriously doubt this, but these numbers don't rule that out.

Will try and check if crit resist rate is inherently tied to mobs level tonight or tomorrow hopefully!

[Cen]

If this is like all the other stats in EQ we wont be so lucky with a linear progression as opposed to random ass increases at random ass point values! Lol, this post is incredible though

[White_knight]

Really good work here =) thanks.

[Dugface]

I've noticed giants in Kael seem particularly resistant to lull though.

[Karthil]

Just want to echo everyone else: this is absolutely awesome to see a test on something we all just assumed we "knew"!

Thanks for doing this!

[A1551]

Ok, so I did my final test on Captain N'Farre, gate guard lvl 50, to determine if there was a "level" component to the crit resist check. Again, there is DEFINITELY a level component in that level controls resists, and more resists is more chances to crit resist, but I wanted to rule out that mob level was also a component of the crit resist chance, ie basically a double penalty for lulling high level mobs.

Another 200 attempts on the captain above at 200 CHA, and I got 17 crit resists, or 8.5%. As a comparison, I got a 7% rate (or 15 crit resists overall) on my earlier test vs a lvl 61 mob. This is remarkably consistent, and based on this data I would say mob level has no impact on the chance to generate a crit.

If this is like all the other stats in EQ we wont be so lucky with a linear progression as opposed to random ass increases at random ass point values! Lol, this post is incredible though

This is true, 200 is somewhat arbitrary! I mean doesn't cha for vendor prices cap out around 130ish? I am now officially 100% sick of mashing the lull button and trying to not get splattered by a couple of gate guards so I will not be testing anymore, but it is very feasible!

[Legidias]

Now I demand a test for every +1 CHA and a graphical plot

[Cen]

Now I demand a test for every +1 CHA and a graphical plot

That super high jump at 177 points though man whew

[Nagoya]

Thanks for the hard work A1551!

[mcoy]

bumping this since someone I know is looking for it.

-Mcoy

[Endorra]

Now I demand a test for every +1 CHA and a graphical plot

Stop it, I can only get so erect.

[Troxx]

A+