Guild summit

[Henlolizar]

How can I find audio (video? twitch?) of the guild summit? Curious what was said. Thanks a lot!

[Legidias]

In brief, tunare and ring war are rotated + many kunark / velious raid mobs are foot race without CotH

[Dugface]

In brief, tunare and ring war are rotated + many kunark / velious raid mobs are foot race without CotH

Where are these rules stated?

[Henlolizar]

So just to clarify: there is no recording? Seems weird, but okay.

[rezzie]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/433088618

[Henlolizar]

Thank you sir.

[Lothisu]

In brief, tunare and ring war are rotated + many kunark / velious raid mobs are foot race without CotH

If these changes did happen why hasn't there been an official post?

[Legidias]

Not trying to be mean or anything, but if you haven't heard of the new rules, you probably aren't part of a group / guild that goes for those kills often. Any entity that joins in on those kills had a rep at summit which then disseminated the rules to the rest of their raid force afterwards.

[Lothisu]

Not trying to be mean or anything, but if you haven't heard of the new rules, you probably aren't part of a group / guild that goes for those kills often. Any entity that joins in on those kills had a rep at summit which then disseminated the rules to the rest of their raid force afterwards.

Thats a fair point but still these rules should be broadcasted to the entire server so everyone is on the same page. Several defined "raid targets" can be killed with less then a group

[feniin]

Thats a fair point but still these rules should be broadcasted to the entire server so everyone is on the same page. Several defined "raid targets" can be killed with less then a group

Those ones aren't affected by the changes made at the summit.

No CotH racing on Gorenaire/Severilous/Statue of Rallos Zek/King Tormax/Dain

Rotations for Tunare and Ring 10 War between Aftermath, Azure Guard, Riot, Kittens/Aegis/Blood Guard

Concessions for Statue of Rallos Zek apply for Avatar of War

----

Most of that was hashed out before/after the summit, not during. The summit was a lot of off-topic "discussion" (ranting/anecdotes) with very little actually being accomplished over 4 hours because there wasn't a strong structure to it and everyone wanted to get their say.

[loramin]

Those ones aren't affected by the changes made at the summit.


He has a point though.

It's not common, but new guilds do form, and existing guilds that didn't use to raid start raiding. For instance, not that long ago ALS went from being a pure leveling guild to being the biggest component of AEGIS. Had that shift occurred after this summit, they wouldn't have had a rep there, and wouldn't know the raid rules even though they became raiders.

At the very least someone should update the wiki (http://wiki.project1999.com/FTE_Race_Lines), but really if these are official rules it'd be nice if the staff posted them somewhere official.

[Puluin]

Those ones aren't affected by the changes made at the summit.

No CotH racing on Gorenaire/Severilous/Statue of Rallos Zek/King Tormax/Dain

Rotations for Tunare and Ring 10 War between Aftermath, Azure Guard, Riot, Kittens/Aegis/Blood Guard

Concessions for Statue of Rallos Zek apply for Avatar of War

----

Most of that was hashed out before/after the summit, not during. The summit was a lot of off-topic "discussion" (ranting/anecdotes) with very little actually being accomplished over 4 hours because there wasn't a strong structure to it and everyone wanted to get their say.

Still not official until posted in raid rules....
Or at least a forum posts by guild leaders making a "player agreement"

[baakss]

Thats a fair point but still these rules should be broadcasted to the entire server so everyone is on the same page. Several defined "raid targets" can be killed with less then a group

And very often those ‘less than groups’ break the raid rules. For example, the for-profit hate farmers tend to log in to Hate directly to assassinate minis. There’s a few toons parked up there for that purpose specifically that participate in fights.

[mumpz]

Still not official until posted in raid rules....
Or at least a forum posts by guild leaders making a "player agreement"

as far as i know, all guilds are follow the rules nonetheless.

[feniin]

Only guilds involved in the agreements are bound to those particular rules/rotations. Everyone else just has to abide by server raid rules.

[enesis]

I believe Llandris has requested Raid Discussion access for a bunch of guild representatives so that the "agreements" can start to be posted on the forums (along with concessions and other information that may affect groups beyond those involved in the discussions). I know that had been suggested with the FTE race lines. But even if it's a matter of waiting for the appropriate people to be flagged for the raid forum, those people will change over time, and there will always be a lag between the "private" negotiations and the "public" outcome.

[Puluin]

as far as i know, all guilds are follow the rules nonetheless.

Hard to follow the rules when you can't read or reference them for new people or if you forget something or in the off chance the main person to know the rules gets busy IRL and isn't attending raids..

So again as far as I'm concerned, the changes from guild summit mean absolutely nothing unless written down and posted.

As far as PoH goes, the only real rule here is regarding camping out at raid targets... which is supposed to be all of HATE... so unless trackers... the gms should be booting these peeps from hate like they did ToV.

If the gms want to be lazy and not do anything about it, then wild west of hate is going to happen. It's pretty clear what kind of nonsense evolves from this...

It's bad enough that llandris decided to what seemed like arbitrarily add in the fte race line list... as if for the past how many years using any zoneline wasnt ok.

I mean really ffs why is Gorenaire race line at the wiz spire only? WtF happened to BW as a line? And to those that suggested the tunnel be a line... it's not a zone line ffs. This is about as bad as letting Coth mages be past the zone line acting as a "tracker" cause they totally can't pet track from the zone line... and why the he'll can't my cleric track past zone line and just rez someone? The rez person has to wait for rez effects anyways opposed to a Coth ed person still being fully buffed and FM ready to go the second they land.

The logic here is really hard to grasp.

A better solution I feel would be requiring all toons sit at a zoneline that they can zone through (not sitting on the exit side of a 1-way zone) and requiring the dru/wiz rings only be acceptable after the target has popped. I.e. you get pop notice and THEN port in...

For the record, Coth mages sitting at raid targets on karana server was never acceptable during a fte race. That mage ran the race just like everyone else!
This actually made monks and rogues more useful for fte races... i.e. rog or monk would drag mage and use cicky rez.

[feniin]

If your guild leadership isn't sharing the information with you then that's on them and their poor leadership. If they are sharing and you're ignoring it then it's your fault and you should feel bad. If your guild isn't involved in the discussion you weren't going to get the target anyway.

[loramin]

If your guild isn't involved in the discussion you weren't going to get the target anyway.

Again, while this is usually true, it's not 100%. A few months ago (actually we're probably closer to a year now) ALS was a non-raiding leveling guild. Today, they're in ToV.

It's not at all commons, but new guilds do emerge and existing non-raid guilds do start raiding. And that's not even addressing pickup raids, which hypothetically could happen tomorrow led by someone who has no clue about the guild summit.

IF what was discussed at the summit was just an agreement between the current raid guilds, then none of that matters. Any new folks don't have to abide by it, and if the other guilds want them to abide by those rules they can talk, explain the rules, etc.

But if the server has any rules that affect all raids in general, those rules really should be available for all, because again the raid scene is not so perfectly stable that we never have new entrants.

[feniin]

All of the things agreed to at the player summit were player agreements between the current raiding guilds. None of it applies to the rest of the server.

[loramin]

All of the things agreed to at the player summit were player agreements between the current raiding guilds. None of it applies to the rest of the server.

Sounds like /thread to me then.

[Puluin]

If your guild leadership isn't sharing the information with you then that's on them and their poor leadership. If they are sharing and you're ignoring it then it's your fault and you should feel bad. If your guild isn't involved in the discussion you weren't going to get the target anyway.

My guild follows the posted raid rules. If it's not in raid faq then it's not a real rule and is simply a temporary agreement by two people that literally no one else outside of those people has to follow.

Also from listening to the audio... it is very unclear what actually got agreed on. Sounded more like multiple guilds all arguing over who was more important for their personal opinion to matter. Sure didn't seem like any suggestions were put forth for the benefit of the server as a whole. Instead it 100% sounded like each guild trying to adjust the rules in their favor.

[feniin]

My guild follows the posted raid rules. If it's not in raid faq then it's not a real rule and is simply a temporary agreement by two people that literally no one else outside of those people has to follow.

Also from listening to the audio... it is very unclear what actually got agreed on. Sounded more like multiple guilds all arguing over who was more important for their personal opinion to matter. Sure didn't seem like any suggestions were put forth for the benefit of the server as a whole. Instead it 100% sounded like each guild trying to adjust the rules in their favor.

What guild are you in? Dawn Believers is just about the only large guild outside of the agreements.

[Puluin]

What guild are you in? Dawn Believers is just about the only large guild outside of the agreements.

The who is irrelevant. But DB is a good example. Let's say they actually get together and compete for these raid targets. Since they are outside these agreements, what makes them abide by some unwritten rule? Where do they go to learn said rules?

Considering the toxic environment in the raid scene, I'd be hard pressed to believe anyone at their word without a posted rule in forum to.reference.

Edit: afterthought: why does it need to be a large guild? A guild of 10-18 people is still a guild and if they're all 60, it is not any sort of stretch to state they could easily be a part of the raid scene and compete. It's been proven over and over that large numbers are not absolutely required for a raid target.

[loramin]

Where do they go to learn said rules?

http://wiki.project1999.com/FTE_Race_Lines ;)

Seriously, Feniin already made it clear that there were no new server-wide raid rules introduced at the summit. Logically that means the old rules (which AFAIK are best documented on that wiki page, and of course on the main rules page) are still in effect.

[Legidias]

The targets in question are not gonna be downed by a 10-18 crew of fresh-to-raid scene 60's. It is a very far stretch that they would be competing for raids where even AM would have to field 20+ and even at the minimum there it would be sketch.

If a whole 30+ member group of 60's (who would only really be able to contest Gore / Sev within the "new" rules) suddenly popped up and started raiding, we can discuss it then, but that really hasn't happened.

[Synthlol]

Sounded more like multiple guilds all arguing over who was more important for their personal opinion to matter. Sure didn't seem like any suggestions were put forth for the benefit of the server as a whole. Instead it 100% sounded like each guild trying to adjust the rules in their favor.

Accurate af

Anyone who expected anything else was delusional

[planarity]

As many people are pointing out, there is a difference between server rules and agreements between guilds. I totally agree that both should be posted publicly for everyone to see; the place to post player agreements would be raid discussion and I would post them there myself, but as Ulgromm mentioned, we still haven't been given access. Rogean is the only one who can do that and he hasn't done it in at least a year. Detoxx has access and could do it if he wanted to. Currently they're stored in a discord that only officers from certain guilds have access to.

[planarity]

and as a sidenote for gore....server rules require you start at a zoneline, and the portals count as zonelines because you can port there. So the player agreement doesn't violate the server rules, we've just chosen one particular zoneline to race from, for a number of reasons.

[Puluin]

http://wiki.project1999.com/FTE_Race_Lines ;)

Seriously, Feniin already made it clear that there were no new server-wide raid rules introduced at the summit. Logically that means the old rules (which AFAIK are best documented on that wiki page, and of course on the main rules page) are still in effect.

I was reffering to the unwritten agreements made.
But thank you for the link again.

[Puluin]

and as a sidenote for gore....server rules require you start at a zoneline, and the portals count as zonelines because you can port there. So the player agreement doesn't violate the server rules, we've just chosen one particular zoneline to race from, for a number of reasons.

Except your player agreement made it into the server raid rules without much discussion ( as appears from an outside perspective ) which effectively eliminates several zone lines for potential races. Gore only states the rings as the start point... this was my issue. BW zoneline is infact a legit zoneline for a race if said guild decided to do that instead of porting in... but not now according to raid rules.

[hobart]

Thats a fair point but still these rules should be broadcasted to the entire server so everyone is on the same page. Several defined "raid targets" can be killed with less then a group

RMT still against the server rules, Kluwen. That's the one you should be worried about.

[LazyHydras]

I'm sorry, but to say that only the guilds affected were at the summit is wrong.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but we DBers have been growing in number and strength. Don't discount the fact that newer guilds (like us) will be at that stage soon.

Hence, it is important that these rules are codified and LISTED so that people like us don't run afoul when we eventually reach this stage.

[feniin]

Dawn Believers won't be held to the agreements made (currently). You guys are free to coth race in Kael/Icewell/Kunark Dragons, You aren't bound to the rotations - can clickfest ring wars and FTE Tunare any spawn. You exist outside of the extra rules we've made between the guilds involved. You're not required to follow the limitations we've set for ourselves.

[waltjig]

Dawn Believers won't be held to the agreements made (currently). You guys are free to coth race in Kael/Icewell/Kunark Dragons, You aren't bound to the rotations - can clickfest ring wars and FTE Tunare any spawn. You exist outside of the extra rules we've made between the guilds involved. You're not required to follow the limitations we've set for ourselves.

This seems like a brilliant Dawn Believer recruitment post

[LazyHydras]

This seems like a brilliant Dawn Believer recruitment post

hear, hear.

[enesis]

Except your player agreement made it into the server raid rules without much discussion ( as appears from an outside perspective ) which effectively eliminates several zone lines for potential races. Gore only states the rings as the start point... this was my issue. BW zoneline is infact a legit zoneline for a race if said guild decided to do that instead of porting in... but not now according to raid rules.

One thing which was not really made clear in the posted version, but which was part of the discussions that led up to the list, is that a guild is still free to setup/race from any zoneline they want. The ones on the list are likely the most efficient, so if you choose to race from elsewhere, it may be a moot point because you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. The benefit of making a list was to clarify what is "acceptable" or "safe" within the existing rules because just prior to that guilds had started racing for Gore from the yeti tunnel. One of the arguments I made against that spot in particular is that other guilds would have no idea where to race from (in fact, ALS/Aegis didn't know about that spot until we saw folks away from the zoneline and asked what was going on).

And I was trying to avoid broadcasting it, but reading between the lines: yes, if you are not party to [the other] agreements, you are not bound by them. Granted, if you are successful, it will likely cause the parties to revert to doing the same thing (i.e., coth racing), but you will get their attention and your guild may be asked to participate in future negotiations.

I also think that Llandris had extended an open invitation to all guilds prior to the summit. There is supposed to be another at some point. If you want more information in the meantime, reach out to me or someone else who has posted in the thread on Discord or in game.

[rezzie]

The wiki page listed includes the fact you can set up elsewhere:

These define the closest points that FTErs or raid forces can stand while waiting for a target to spawn. Anyone past these lines are considered "trackers".

Guilds are free to set up their raid force elsewhere if they so choose, but they must be further back than the defined lines.

You can park your raid and FTErs anywhere you like as long as it is no closer or quicker to a target than the published lines.

[Legidias]

#PullgorenairetoFV

[Puluin]

The wiki page listed includes the fact you can set up elsewhere:



You can park your raid and FTErs anywhere you like as long as it is no closer or quicker to a target than the published lines.

That would be all fine and dandy if that clause was included in the raid rules faq... which it is not:

Q28: Where are starting lines for FTE racers?
A: Dain Frostreaver IV: Behind the archway just past the zone line.
Faydedar: On the island with the Ogre camp (#1 on wiki map).
Gorenaire: At the druid rings.
Kael Drakkal: Behind the ice/snow line at the Wakening Lands zone line.
Kelorek`Dar: At the zone in rings or Siren's Grotto zone line.
Lady Vox: Before the ladder at the zone in.
Lord Nagafen: In the entrance tunnel from Lavastorm.
Lord Yelinak: At the fountain to Cobalt Scar or Wakening Lands zone line.
Severilous: At the Field of Bone or Trakanon's Teeth zone lines.
Sleeper's Tomb: Behind the entrance door.
Talendor: At the Burning Woods or Overthere zone lines.
Temple of Veeshan: Behind the bottom step just past the entrance door.
Trakanon: At the zone in.
Veeshan's Peak: On the blue entrance pad.
Venril Sathir: The hallway between the entrance zonelines.
Zlandicar: Behind the zone in portal.
---
Plane of Fear: At the PoF portal in Feerrott.
Plane of Hate: Anywhere not in Hate unless actively clearing with a raid force.

For the most part there aren't other options for starting lines. However, gore, naggy, and fay have other zoneline options. Gore = BW ( distance is about the same at bard speed ). Naggy has all the zonelines coming from sol a (they're two way zonelines). And while it may not be most effective, the zoneline for OT boat and FV boat are closer than ogee island. Additionally, if going off of the boat docks, why isn't the goodie island for FV boat an option?

[baakss]

That would be all fine and dandy if that clause was included in the raid rules faq... which it is not:



For the most part there aren't other options for starting lines. However, gore, naggy, and fay have other zoneline options. Gore = BW ( distance is about the same at bard speed ). Naggy has all the zonelines coming from sol a (they're two way zonelines). And while it may not be most effective, the zoneline for OT boat and FV boat are closer than ogee island. Additionally, if going off of the boat docks, why isn't the goodie island for FV boat an option?

Tbh it’s better for the server if people don’t rule lawyer in new starting locations. It’s hard to police it. Nobody wants to park toons at 4 different places to make sure another guild isn’t cheating past the starting line.

You FTE gore on a bard that nobody saw at the rings and the other guilds ask questions and it’s a big GM hassle for no real reason.