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Trelaboon
07-06-2019, 06:54 PM
I’ve been “hardcore” raiding for about 14 months, and I still don’t have a toon even close to BiS. I have spent time gearing more than one toon, so that’s not surprising, but I feel like even if I had spent every bit of my DKP on a single toon, I still wouldn’t be close. It makes me wonder how well geared those top raiders were during The Velious timeline on live. I don’t recall ever seeing someone geared out like I see some of the people on p1999, given that they’ve had almost 4 years to acquire loot. Does anyone remember seeing someone in full BiS gear back then? I feel like the top players I remember seeing all had what would be considered just average ToV gear on p1999. I’m excited to see what people’s toons look like after only having a year in kunark and a year in Velious come green. I’m interested to hear stories of your servers most elite!

enjchanter
07-06-2019, 06:55 PM
Alts are looting vulak if that explains it

aaezil
07-06-2019, 07:03 PM
To give you perspective from someone who was there the average lvl 20-30 twink on blue has more and better gear than the average lvl 50-60 main on live in the first year of velious outside of possibly one guild per server.

Baylan295
07-06-2019, 07:14 PM
I’ve been “hardcore” raiding for about 14 months, and I still don’t have a toon even close to BiS. I have spent time gearing more than one toon, so that’s not surprising, but I feel like even if I had spent every bit of my DKP on a single toon, I still wouldn’t be close. It makes me wonder how well geared those top raiders were during The Velious timeline on live. I don’t recall ever seeing someone geared out like I see some of the people on p1999, given that they’ve had almost 4 years to acquire loot. Does anyone remember seeing someone in full BiS gear back then? I feel like the top players I remember seeing all had what would be considered just average ToV gear on p1999. I’m excited to see what people’s toons look like after only having a year in kunark and a year in Velious come green. I’m interested to hear stories of your servers most elite!

Generally, to hit full BIS, you’re talking multiple drops from Vulak. Vulak’s loot table has 25ish items on it. Vulak drops 2 items per kill, unless you get lucky. Even if you killed Vulak once a week during Velious era you’re talking roughly 104 items. RNG would indicate it’s pretty unlikely anyone is hitting full BIS on Vulak items - and that doesn’t count getting the right KT/Tunare/AoW drops you need for full BIS. Many servers did not kill AoW or Tunare in era.

Jimjam
07-06-2019, 07:35 PM
I believe some guilds may have focused on gearing a couple of main tanks, those toons might have been the ones most likely to be close to Bis?

fastboy21
07-06-2019, 07:55 PM
I believe some guilds may have focused on gearing a couple of main tanks, those toons might have been the ones most likely to be close to Bis?

In some top guilds people did do things like "god looting" (thats what we called it anyways on live on Povar) where certain key players in certain key classes were geared out. It was usually the main tanks.

The thing is that depending on your server there weren't many guilds clearing the entire expansion before Luclin. Most servers had 1-2. If you are racing and sharing the spawns the odds of anyone being totally BiS before Luclin is pretty rare...at most 1-2 people per server. Most players didn't even know what BiS items there were for their class on any single server.

I also have to add that it wasn't even a goal for most players. EQ was still getting its boom of population during Kunark and Velious---the majority of players were just leveling or socializing or exploring. The game wasn't about gaining X item for most players. At least it wasn't in my experience. I was happy to have a few NToV items and my epic during velious.

DromalPhrenia
07-06-2019, 08:51 PM
Alts are looting vulak if that explains it

Can't bid on vulak loot for alts in AM tho :confused:

No, my memory of any of the classic era is that no one had close to BIS. I don't think people even knew what most of the BIS loot was in the first place. As mentioned, Vulak has a massive pile of loot but only drops 2 at a time, so for a while you didn't even know what Vulak could drop. And that's just one mob.

I would imagine a lot of BIS loot wasn't even considered for a lot of classes that can loot it. ALL/ALL +100HP items were probably just considered tank items.

I don't know how every guild's loot system worked obviously, but the idea of getting full BIS in any DKP system, from Velious's start through Luclin's release, seems impossible to me.

Tecmos Deception
07-06-2019, 08:55 PM
Live guilds were generally shittier for a number of reasons. A lot of folks had dial up, almost nobody knew shit, there were relatively fewer folks interested in hardcore raiding, and more. And that's besides the timeline differences.

It makes sense that fewer folks had uber gear back then.

Nuggie
07-06-2019, 09:25 PM
I think expansions came too fast to get fully BiS.

Trelaboon
07-06-2019, 09:31 PM
Another thing I don’t recall was ever seeing someone use a primal weapon during live. I feel like a primal would have been useful pretty much forever. 100 attack is great at any period of the game, but I don’t remember ever seeing one

Baylan295
07-06-2019, 09:46 PM
Another thing I don’t recall was ever seeing someone use a primal weapon during live. I feel like a primal would have been useful pretty much forever. 100 attack is great at any period of the game, but I don’t remember ever seeing one

Any guild that killed Warders would have had multiple Primals. They typically dropped 3-4 per kill IIRC.

White_knight
07-06-2019, 09:52 PM
My guild on Xev was doing Plane of Hate/Fear and dragons like Talendor as their raiding. Talendor was on some rotation system too shared amongst a few guilds.

This was during velious era too.

On Xev I remember there was one super elite guild and it was rumored you couldnt even app unless you had your epic.

For most people I think having Kunark tradeables and a dew raid pieces was as good as it got.

P99 kinda skews the raid scene a ton and I think thats why there are alot of people addicted to raiding here as it simply just wasnt something that 90% of the pop did much off on live.

I knew of the raid zones on live but didnt know anything about them - and tbh never touched VP/Trak/VS/Fay and most of Velious till P99.

I remember doing arena a few times and killing vindi once.

So in short no...the concept of BiS was for a tiny portion of the EQ community. Getting your epic was a BALLER move not running around drippijg in NtoV gear and to be frank most people would have inspected ntov geared toons and had no clue what they were looking at anyhow.

aaezil
07-06-2019, 09:55 PM
Also velious was “beat” in a few weeks with kunark gear - so velious gear is largely irrelevant on this box.

kaizersoze
07-06-2019, 10:03 PM
On live they weren't time locked for 10+ years at velious. So no, nobody was full BIS. Especially when Luclin came out and new BIS was around.

Atmas
07-06-2019, 10:21 PM
People did not have full BiS on live. Expansions came out about every year and people did not have all the knowledge that people had here. People didn't have BiS Kunark when Velious came out and they certainly weren't killing bosses so early on. AoW and Tunare were killed just a handful of times before Luclin.

Mblake81
07-06-2019, 10:42 PM
I never seen a BIS item on live or a primal in use, didn't know they existed.

Nuggie
07-07-2019, 12:19 AM
people did not have all the knowledge that people had here. .

I did not know how bad I was at EQ until I played on P99 a few years... it was quite an eye opening experience. Ate quite a slice of humble pie when I started raiding here.

Izmael
07-07-2019, 04:51 AM
I did not know how bad I was at EQ until I played on P99 a few years... it was quite an eye opening experience. Ate quite a slice of humble pie when I started raiding here.

*shrug*, being "good" at EQ / P99 is simply a matter of time you spend playing. There are no problems to solve in this game and no skill really involved (unless you factor in PvP).

The less time you spend IRL with your friends, family, or studying / working / traveling, the better you can be at EQ.

Don't know if there ever was any humble pie to be had.

Hrothgar
07-07-2019, 06:35 AM
This is going to be dependent entirely on class, of course, but I’ve found that there’s a veritable gear plateau on my torp shaman that I never really felt pre-luclin on live. Get to 3k hp and over 1k ac, and any gear improvement has felt roughly the same. This is probably not going to be the case on my SK, who has a real “thirst” for gear, but there’s definitely a plateau for many classes in terms of “good gear” vs “BiS” even making the game noticeably different for people.

Anyone want to chime in?

JayDee
07-07-2019, 08:05 AM
For some reason, people feel entitled here and every casual believes they deserve raid loot. Most people on live didn't dream of the day

Nuggie
07-07-2019, 10:26 AM
@Izmael

I didn't have an in-depth grasp of gaming mechanics or how to manipulate them back then like I learned from playing on P99.

Jibartik
07-07-2019, 11:15 AM
"there is some way to recharge items with merchants some guy told me but I didn't understand" - my friend at the cafeteria

"when you get to 50 there is a quest to turn into a dark elf" - my guild mates

"after I finished the quest some guy asked me what webpage I learned it from, can you believe that? you can just look up quests online..." -my cafateria friend again with a sad face

this was all about when kunark launched lol

Tecmos Deception
07-07-2019, 12:14 PM
*shrug*, being "good" at EQ / P99 is simply a matter of time you spend playing. There are no problems to solve in this game and no skill really involved (unless you factor in PvP).

The less time you spend IRL with your friends, family, or studying / working / traveling, the better you can be at EQ.

Don't know if there ever was any humble pie to be had.

This stigma about admitting that a video game requires skill to be good at is silly. The ability to perform given actions within a video game is patently a skill:

skill
/skil/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the ability to do something well; expertise.

You even spell out how to improve at eq, which is the same way you improve at literally anything, but claim eq takes no skill.

Why are some long time players awful if all it takes is time investment? Why are some new players very effective if they haven't put the time in? Your claim is clearly false.

Jibartik
07-07-2019, 12:19 PM
p99: everquest is easy
*reads and watches videos on how to do everything and still has multiple near heart attacks and loses job raiding a 20 year old game*

Izmael
07-07-2019, 12:58 PM
This stigma about admitting that a video game requires skill to be good at is silly. The ability to perform given actions within a video game is patently a skill:

skill
/skil/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the ability to do something well; expertise.

You even spell out how to improve at eq, which is the same way you improve at literally anything, but claim eq takes no skill.

Why are some long time players awful if all it takes is time investment? Why are some new players very effective if they haven't put the time in? Your claim is clearly false.



I don't know what you mean by being good or bad at EQ. How do you decide if someone is good? By the gear they have? Getting great gear is simply a matter of joining one of the top guilds and attending as many raids as possible, while performing some very basic tasks such as pressing autoattack, complete healing, or maybe a couple buff buttons for 97% of the people.

Chess takes skill. Boxing takes skill. Painting takes skill. EQ takes knowledge of the basic mechanics and inordinate amounts of time invested.

Molitoth
07-07-2019, 01:00 PM
On P99, all BiS for Classic/Kunark was surely obtainable... but like many have said for Velious it's highly unlikely due to the amount of items on Vulak's loot table.

Crawdad
07-07-2019, 02:21 PM
Near/the beginning of Luclin was probably the most likely to have as close to 'Total BiS' as possible due to the number of bottlenecks and blocking that took place. Also, Ssra temple wasn't itemized for a few weeks/couple months, so depending on your server's top-end scene, it was very easy to hog NToV and other desirable targets, then do VT at their leisure.

Total BiS? Probably not, like everyone keeps saying Vulak has too much loot and the timeline wouldn't allow for it. If you ignore Vulak, then yes, many people out there had ridiculous gear compared to the average 60 on a server. Nothing like on here, though.

Mblake81
07-07-2019, 03:00 PM
I don't know what you mean by being good or bad at EQ. How do you decide if someone is good?

People who got their characters from Ebay were typically bad, didn't know how to play their class, didn't know about their spells, where to be, what to do or how to do it. I suppose that could be filed under your comment about knowing game mechanics.

We also have 20 years of gaming knowledge and games being even more mainstream than back then. Top entertainment currently iirc. Social media and things like youtube to making understanding things easier beforehand rather than jumping in and being a total idiot.

Which computer games (if any) require skill?

If EQ is the McDonalds of computer gaming then which games are to be considered equal to a Law degree or something like that?

<---- played with arrow keys and would use mouse hand to spacebar jump.

Eq may very well be a game that requires no skill, it would be different if applied knowledge of the Katana were required or some form of Ninjitsu.

Tecmos Deception
07-07-2019, 03:33 PM
I don't know what you mean by being good or bad at EQ. How do you decide if someone is good? By the gear they have? Getting great gear is simply a matter of joining one of the top guilds and attending as many raids as possible, while performing some very basic tasks such as pressing autoattack, complete healing, or maybe a couple buff buttons for 97% of the people.

Chess takes skill. Boxing takes skill. Painting takes skill. EQ takes knowledge of the basic mechanics and inordinate amounts of time invested.

Your own reasoning works again you, you just don't see it. Being good at chess takes skill. Owning a chess trophy does not. Winning boxing matches against skilled opponents takes skill. Owning a belt does not. Painting a masterpiece takes skill. Owning a masterpiece does not.

Playing EQ well takes skill. Owning gear does not.


And, of course, how much skill you demonstrate can vary. Nobody claims throwing out a few raid buffs or autoattacking while facing the right direction is especially skillful. But you're disingenuous or an idiot if you don't see there's skill to many eq activities.

Being a puller who balances his rate to provide fun and exp and loot chances for his group without overwhelming them or boring them. Extra credit if you can do that without stepping on the toes of the people next door or losing nameds to a lame solo chanter sniper.

Breaking fear solo as a druid. Soloing protector as a shaman. Crawling through named velks dogs as a chanter. Generally tackling content with small numbers. Leveling with a few pals in the bottom of najena or dalnir instead of in Oasis or FM. Being a good bard. Etc.

You also ignore that there is a "puzzle solving" going on in the game still. Just because someone else has figured something out doesn't mean everyone instantly has. Over time, p99 has slowly and steadily been tweaked. Someone using a 50 necro to charm in vanilla had it all figured out, but that isnt how it works anymore. People didn't change their methods because "it's all been solved, there's nothing new, we all know everything" or whatever. Etc.


I am anxiously awaiting more non sequiturs and straw men from you :rolleyes:

Jibartik
07-07-2019, 03:41 PM
Being good at EQ is like being good at driving. You can be good at it, but then you can also suck at it at the same time.

Not cutting people off left and right driving recklessly, but totally getting in everyone's way who is driving slightly above the speed limit.

Its only fairly obvious who is clearly bad at it and usually people agree, but usually that person is like rU KiDdInG Im ThE bEsT!

Also there is more than enough information online to give you all the direction you'd need to be great at it and even still you could totally end up dead trying any of it.

And the confidence of the best race car drivers of all time is only equal to the confidence of the best raid leaders

It's like 1:1 with driving.

temp2290
07-07-2019, 05:44 PM
My guild on Xev was doing Plane of Hate/Fear and dragons like Talendor as their raiding. Talendor was on some rotation system too shared amongst a few guilds.

This was during velious era too.

On Xev I remember there was one super elite guild and it was rumored you couldnt even app unless you had your epic.

For most people I think having Kunark tradeables and a dew raid pieces was as good as it got.

P99 kinda skews the raid scene a ton and I think thats why there are alot of people addicted to raiding here as it simply just wasnt something that 90% of the pop did much off on live.

I knew of the raid zones on live but didnt know anything about them - and tbh never touched VP/Trak/VS/Fay and most of Velious till P99.

I remember doing arena a few times and killing vindi once.

So in short no...the concept of BiS was for a tiny portion of the EQ community. Getting your epic was a BALLER move not running around drippijg in NtoV gear and to be frank most people would have inspected ntov geared toons and had no clue what they were looking at anyhow.

Hi Xev buddy. Yeah I don't even remember anyone saying "BIS" but I was in maybe a top 10 raid guild, not a top one.. Now i enjoy being a newbie, and watching Youtube raids makes me cringe and remember all the drama around raid loot in my guild. No thank you! This server was all about doing things differently to me.

Myke
07-07-2019, 06:38 PM
On Bristlebane, not one person was even remotely close to BiS by the end of velious. There were 3 raiding guilds, so there was some competition, but the very best geared had 1-2 vulak loots plus a few ntov pieces. Most hardcore raiders were pretty excited to have 1 or 2 ntov pieces. HoT and Kael armor was common in the raid guilds and having full HoT gear was considered doing well. The sleeper was actually up for a little while, so many people had primals. And even after it was woken guilds continued to farm ST golems.

That said, bristlebane was one of the oldest and most populated servers, so lots of people were in the raid scene

Ravager
07-07-2019, 06:44 PM
P99 takes as much skill as a paint by numbers picture. Don't oversell yourselves just because you're exceptionally skilled at staying in the lines.

Mblake81
07-07-2019, 07:09 PM
P99 takes as much skill as a paint by numbers picture. Don't oversell yourselves just because you're exceptionally skilled at staying in the lines.

Yeah.

Strap in, crank up, press the gas and stay off the walls.

you're exceptionally skilled at staying in the lines.

That would be a skill though?

Anyway, which PC games require skill? FPS or maybe RTS games? can those be whittled down to a few key things to be repeated by min/maxers. I found the core.

Mblake81
07-07-2019, 07:14 PM
MMA is doing some judo chops, working out, getting in a cage and beating the other guy. Paint by numbers as well.

Born, eat, shit, piss, go to school, marry, have a kid.. die. The little line between born and date of death is what the fuss is about.

Ennewi
07-07-2019, 07:53 PM
P99 takes as much skill as a paint by numbers picture. Don't oversell yourselves just because you're exceptionally skilled at staying in the lines.

Except there are no additional painters to fuck with your progress and there are no consequences to disregarding the numbers altogether or chances of the paint being wiped clean if you stop suddenly at a certain area on the canvas. The only potential risk involves pulling a Van Gogh and consuming the paint.

Playing speed chess and driving a car are better comparisons. You might have a blindspot or two but, while engaged in either, you have a good idea of the possibilities ahead within the agreed upon parameters. If those parameters are ignored, you risk embarrassment in one and injury in the other. Also, with both, it's important to get a feel for the other participants (your opponent/fellow motorists) enough so you can Intuit their next moves and adjust your own as needed.

If the elderly are not challenged by it, than it wasn't designed for you to show off your skills. And it's an insult to the original devs to suggest their game is as easy as paint by numbers. Our adolescent selves died and cursed endlessly at these colors and numbers. The lines weren't so visible then as they are now.

Keza
07-07-2019, 08:25 PM
This stigma about admitting that a video game requires skill to be good at is silly. The ability to perform given actions within a video game is patently a skill:

skill
/skil/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the ability to do something well; expertise.

You even spell out how to improve at eq, which is the same way you improve at literally anything, but claim eq takes no skill.

Why are some long time players awful if all it takes is time investment? Why are some new players very effective if they haven't put the time in? Your claim is clearly false.

Saying EQ requires skill nowdays is only correct in the most technical definitions. Anyone who genuinely finds EQ mentally taxing is probably out of their mind or very new to games. I see quite a few people on the forum/game bragging about being high all the time. If you need an explanation for why some people are bad at the game despite time played look no further than the obvious, not to mention alcohol or mental/physical limitations. There's a few super-casuals who never get good at anything they do because their concept of fun is different from the norm, just like your concept of skill is different from the norm.

His explanation of how to get better wasn't meant as instruction, clearly. It was implying that anyone 'good' at EQ is only 'good' at it because dumping a thousand hours into a simple game is the only way to get full BiS, not that you poured hours into improving at the game like you would CS/SC/R6/RL/whatever. The things you cite as skill are evident of your skewed outlook. I'd define leveling in certain zones and knowing how to do certain things as game knowledge more than skill. That's exaggerating the content of the game drastically to say remembering timers or knowing what mobs spawn where is skill.

All that said games do take skill and EQ was much more difficult way back when we were all morons, but how long ago was it that the average person was illiterate? That doesn't make reading a difficult skill. Everything is relative to average intelligence. Playing EQ right now is incredibly simple and not something to be proud about, not that anyone should feel ashamed at playing something they enjoy either. Unless it's Monster Girl Island.

On-topic: Not really. Only leaders/officers/MTs of top-tier guilds would have even had a chance to get full BiS. It's taking you so long because the only thing keeping a lot of raiders playing is a combination of gearing up alts and the inability to let go of their pixels and be free.

Danth
07-07-2019, 08:56 PM
Thread got a little hijacked, but that's alright. I agree with Tecmos: There's plenty of difficulty and associated learning curve/skill to be found in-game, if the player looks for it. The raider folks who like to be carried by their guilds are extremely obvious, because that's typically a mind-numbing activity: Log in when told, group up as ordered, /assist when told, collect loot. It's also far from all there is to do in-game, although it's just about all many of those types of players do (aside from leveling up more alts in their usual experience-highway zones) since they're quite often interested only in pixels rather than interesting gameplay. EQ's an open-ended game and in many cases it is what the player makes it, so different players end up with wildly different experiences from nominally the same game.

---------------------------------------------

In the original game there wasn't long enough periods between expansions for very many players to achieve full or near-full "best in slot." Players certainly talked about it and drooled over high-end loot, as can be readily seen by reading 2000/2001-era comments on old database websites like allakhazam.

Danth

Tecmos Deception
07-07-2019, 09:12 PM
P99 takes as much skill as a paint by numbers picture. Don't oversell yourselves just because you're exceptionally skilled at staying in the lines.

It's not about bragging. It's about objective, plain-as-day definition of the word "skill."

Some folks can't come to terms with what the word means, maybe because they can't accept that doing X in a video game isn't PURELY a function of nolife time invested. Maybe something else. But yeah, whatever the reasoning, there's no legit arguing that doing something well in p99 isn't a skill.

Does it take more skill to hit a 95 mph fastball, fence in the Olympics, write a bestseller, stalk a trophy whitetail, or do small engine repair? Probably. But that's not relevant to whether p99 involves a level of skill.

Tecmos Deception
07-07-2019, 09:16 PM
I see quite a few people on the forum/game bragging about being high all the time.

Save was high a lot. While soloing hs south before anyone else did it (let alone demonstrated it all on videos), in mediocre gear. I'm sure that was all just luck right? It clearly couldn't have been time invested -> success cause he was doing that shit years ago when a lot of mother fuckers still die a bunch trying to do north in present day after years of experience with p99.

Izmael
07-08-2019, 03:28 AM
Which computer games (if any) require skill?



I only play two games - EQ and Quake Live, which is a modernized version of Quake 3.

QL revolves around skill and pretty much nothing else IMO.

Izmael
07-08-2019, 03:34 AM
I am anxiously awaiting more non sequiturs and straw men from you :rolleyes:

It feels like we're not debating the same topic really.

I'm not saying that chanting through velk named dogs is just a matter of time, of course it takes skill (and luck). And of course setting up complex pulls in VP or ToV is also a matter of skill.

If we decide that being able to do something like that is being good at EQ, very well, but that will mean that probably at least 95% of P99 players are "bad" and only a few select ones will earn the "good" label.

Izmael
07-08-2019, 03:42 AM
I can't remember now and their forums are long gone, but wasn't Furor as close to BiS as it gets?

I mean he was the GL of FoH, also their MT, and I think it was pretty much their policy that he would get first pick on all llot.

Can't believe their forums haven't been saved for the history sake.

Dugface
07-08-2019, 05:44 AM
This could be a good contest for green. How much phat lewtz can you get by the end of classic, kunark and velious? Can you beat Furor and Tigole?

LoS normally wrote on their guild news page who won the different loot, so if someone is patient and bored they could make magelo profiles for everyone.

Dugface
07-08-2019, 05:46 AM
What is the max. hp or ac a warrior can get and max mana a caster can get in the diffèrent expansions?

Supa Powa
07-08-2019, 06:25 AM
Afterlife of Mithaniel Marr had many folks who had top end gear, most considered BiS even though there was not a specific cookie cutter idea such as that acronym. We did however have an endless supply of raiders which generated enormous amounts of DKP for the extremely hardcore within our core group. When we created the guild we also created the DKP system to enrich the success of raids and attendance while also increasing the gear progression. I can think of a number of people who had top tier gear, considered BiS for that time. Aftathott - Bard, Hobben - Rogue, Jenamdar - Shaman, Icks and myself (Supa) - SK, Greycloud and Waihung - Warrior. These are just some few examples of individuals who had the end game items. I would say from classic up until after PoTime our guild farmed everything end game regularly until the next new content came out, and even then we farmed anything older which still provided upgrades or purpose.

Mblake81
07-08-2019, 08:58 AM
I only play two games - EQ and Quake Live, which is a modernized version of Quake 3.

QL revolves around skill and pretty much nothing else IMO.

Yes, K/D ratio and not some bs killstreaks or other gimmicks. Knowing how to aim and move.. manipulate the controls, where the spawn points are, the most likely avenues players will take to anticipate their moves. DoD: Source Gungame (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SexOXX2GDQ) was my poison, on the Adult Gaming Community (https://www.gametracker.com/server_info/74.91.119.178:27015/) server.

I would argue EQ takes skill but that skill is below the radar of players. Just need someone not familiar with games or computers to be reminded of that. I could peel the eyelids back on the older gentleman here at my post with basic typing, its a skill but not something our generation considers anymore. EQ taught me typing, having to splurt out info in the heat of battle (before voice comms)

So its like what the other poster said, the skill is not something we notice anymore but its noticeable when someone doesn't have it.

Jibartik
07-08-2019, 12:42 PM
Am I the only one that thinks that driving analogy was like perfect? :thinkingemoji:

fastboy21
07-08-2019, 05:01 PM
Afterlife of Mithaniel Marr had many folks who had top end gear, most considered BiS even though there was not a specific cookie cutter idea such as that acronym. We did however have an endless supply of raiders which generated enormous amounts of DKP for the extremely hardcore within our core group. When we created the guild we also created the DKP system to enrich the success of raids and attendance while also increasing the gear progression. I can think of a number of people who had top tier gear, considered BiS for that time. Aftathott - Bard, Hobben - Rogue, Jenamdar - Shaman, Icks and myself (Supa) - SK, Greycloud and Waihung - Warrior. These are just some few examples of individuals who had the end game items. I would say from classic up until after PoTime our guild farmed everything end game regularly until the next new content came out, and even then we farmed anything older which still provided upgrades or purpose.

There is a big difference between "high end items" and best in slot items. There just weren't enough clears before the subsequent expansions released to generate many BiS items on live servers. Of course, there are some exceptions...but its very rare, almost non-existent compared to the amount of BiS items that have dropped on p99.

In a top end guild that monopolized the top items you could MAYBE generate 1-2 people per guild if the BiS items dropped at all and went to the same people. If there were two guilds clearing top content you would have had to get twice as lucky...etc.

I'm not saying that the folks you quoted didn't have best in slot gear (if you say they did then I believe you), but it would have been extremely rare on the large of the game before the PoP expansion. During and after PoP with the use of instances you have the rapid multiplication of high-end dungeon clears per server per expansion...increasing the chances significantly.

This doesn't even take into account that the sleeper was awoken on some servers and that AoW was barely cleared on live during Velious era --- both of which drop BiS gear for some classes.

Jlpstrtkng
07-08-2019, 05:09 PM
Forgive me for being not in the know but what is full BiS lol

Raev
07-08-2019, 05:28 PM
Save was high a lot. While soloing hs south before anyone else did it (let alone demonstrated it all on videos), in mediocre gear. I'm sure that was all just luck right? It clearly couldn't have been time invested -> success cause he was doing that shit years ago when a lot of mother fuckers still die a bunch trying to do north in present day after years of experience with p99.

<3 Save!

Anyway, I think Izmael's point is that in sports with fixed size teams (i.e. all of them) skill is necessary, while in EQ you can win without skill as long as your team is willing to carry you. Of course, there are plenty of people in the raid guilds who are in fact quite skilled, but it's not necessary and I personally did little while raiding other than pressing auto attack and (very occasionally) looting something.

If we were to continue the analogy with boxing, it would be like a member of the champion's entourage somehow taking a part of the title belt home and bragging about it on the boxer forums.

Every single form of 'competition' Rogean and Nilbog have ever selected favors the zerg guild, so that's what people do.

Kayso2
07-08-2019, 06:00 PM
A lot of this was already said.

There was only a year between Velious and Luclin.

Quite a few servers didn't kill AoW at all prior to Luclin. I think only 2-3 guilds killed him without the charmed giant prior to Lulcin. He was not on farm status. So without two AoW drops, we rule out some classes from BiS.

Tunare was another mob not on farm status. I'd bet there are more earrings on p99 than there were across all live servers prior to Luclin.

And considering how many Vulak/Doze loots you need to get BiS, the idea that one person could accumulate enough items, especially with Vulak's huge loot table, is pretty long odds.

So maybe a couple dozen people across all servers were BiS? Does that make it a thing?

loramin
07-08-2019, 06:01 PM
Forgive me for being not in the know but what is full BiS lol

BiS = "Best in Slot", or in other words that your character has the best possible item for a particular slot, for their particular class. A simple example is that for many classes, the "Best in Slot" item for the Primary slot is their class's epic weapon.

"Full BiS" just means that every piece of your equipment is the best possible option for that slot (or at least equipped equipment; I don't think anyone cares how many Vox weight reduction bags you have in inventory).

The whole point of this thread is that the very idea of "Full BiS" is almost exclusively a P99 concept, but many people have forgotten as much (ie. they've forgotten that while Velious has been going strong for 3+ years here, and Kunark went for 6+ years before that, live never had either for longer than a year).

Neach
07-08-2019, 06:25 PM
[QUOTE=Izmael;2933507]I don't know what you mean by being good or bad at EQ. How do you decide if someone is good? By the gear they have?/QUOTE]


by performing class specific tasks more efficiently than others? It would seem fairly obvious how you could define certain people who play everquest as "skilled".

Jibartik
07-08-2019, 06:36 PM
Im like... I feel like that post I made bout driving is like, the theory of relativity in its simplicity and clarity describing how one is good at EQ

Jibartik
07-08-2019, 08:11 PM
Wait you know what also have we given credit to tecmos? like seriously, obviously he is skilled at everquest, although he does always say he learned it from some other dudes actually...

Well the point I was about to get at was, that obviously there are people that are, or were, skilled at this game, that figured out how to do the stuff that we all just watch they themselves or other people tell us how to do on youtube.

I mean I'm pretty good at driving so I have figured out a few things, but like, every time I log onto my enchanter I'm like:

"dang logged off at 10% hp, well lets get that back up first, then step, step, agro, screw up, stun, forget what to do, hit hit, gate, back to 10%, camp"

But I used that enchanter to do great things once! (thanks in part to tecmos).

Where as it seems noman or whataver 8th enchanter tecmos is on seems to be doing fine getting exp (though you do die a lot so again maybe this point is mute and there is no skill and we're back to where we started)

lol idk

Maybe the only skill required to be good at everquest is patience.

Jimjam
07-08-2019, 09:14 PM
Maybe the only skill required to be good at everquest is patience.

I think social skills are important. It helps being able to rally people to your cause, to work as part of a team, be a good follower or good leader.

Naethyn
07-08-2019, 09:34 PM
Generally, to hit full BIS, you’re talking multiple drops from Vulak. Vulak’s loot table has 25ish items on it. Vulak drops 2 items per kill, unless you get lucky. Even if you killed Vulak once a week during Velious era you’re talking roughly 104 items. RNG would indicate it’s pretty unlikely anyone is hitting full BIS on Vulak items - and that doesn’t count getting the right KT/Tunare/AoW drops you need for full BIS. Many servers did not kill AoW or Tunare in era.

There is evidence to show that classic dropped far more items total than what p99 does. This nonclassic loot total was done on purpose to extend the server's life.

Nuggie
07-08-2019, 09:53 PM
So... the people I look up to in life are people that aren't afraid (read as insecure) about their situation or station enough to give compliments to people around them. They build up other people's confidence. Be the tide that raises all the ships on their coast. Whether or not those people necessarily deserve it that particular time they earned some praise at some point.

Those of you saying people on P99 aren't skilled at EQ, or gaming in general, maybe should try to grow some inner strength enough to throw sunshine in someone's life instead of shade. To me it makes you sound weak and insecure.

This server has an abundance of smart people that apply their cleverness towards mechanics and emergant gameplay/techniques. Give them some credit.

Halfcell
07-09-2019, 02:29 AM
Being "good" at Everquest requires the same mix of things that are required to be good at anything else. It is a combination of knowledge base, experience, willingness to experiment and learn regardless of the consequences of failure, reaction time, and an innate ineffable final factor that is not evenly distributed and cannot be acquired through hard work on all of the others.

Some people spend a crazy amount of time playing EQ, learning, and experimenting, and are also just innately good at video games. They are better than you at EQ, and probably many other games. That's no reason to insult them out of petty jealousy, I am sure you are better than them at other things. You decide what matters to you, they decide what matters to them, and you are all wrong because no one cares, nothing you do matters and 1000 years from now no one will even know you existed so chill out.

Also, no, no one was BiS in velious on live except maybe Furor and a couple of other top tier main tanks in guilds like Afterlife, Triton, and Legacy of Steel because they loot counciled BiS items to their top guys.

Mblake81
07-09-2019, 05:09 AM
and you are all wrong because no one cares, nothing you do matters and 1000 years from now no one will even know you existed so chill out.

Living right now though, I could care less about people 1000 years from now. Today is today. What kind of life is "Nothing you do matters, no one cares, chill out" while it might be true in the grand scheme of things it does rob you of a certain vitality and a passive acceptance, its too weak to be a functioning frame of thought.

Dust in the wind, ashes to ashes.. doesn't help you get over that obstacle.

fadetree
07-09-2019, 08:57 AM
Of course EQ takes skill to be good at. As halfcell said, it's a combination of experience, reflexes, ability to read rapidly changing situations (i.e., 'situational awareness'), knowledge of your class and other's in the group, knowledge of how given mobs react, knowledge of zone layout, and many other things.

How can you tell if someone is 'good' at EQ? Group with them and consistently live through tough situations is one way. Ask other people what their opinion is of the player. Watch them solo something tough. Gear is not a very good indicator, because you can get gear through other means than being 'good' at EQ.

Some classes make it more obvious than others. Enchanter or bard for two. But even simpler melee classes have their moments. Does the melee always seem to be paying attention to what mobs are mezzed and when it might drop? Do they strip adds off of the casters? Do they park when needed? Do they switch targets consistently to the right mob? Do they manage their health such that they don't use up healer mana unnecessarily? Do they know how to hold or avoid aggro and in what situations to do so? Do they know how to corner and when to pop their discs? These are all skills.

In giant zergs yeah it's usually pretty easy, especially for melees. Once a group is established and the pulls are well managed (another skill), then it's mostly pretty automatic. But group with someone one on a tough break in or in an area that's very dangerous and who is skilled and who is not is pretty apparent.

People saying it doesn't take skill to play EQ might be using a different definition of 'skill' than I do. Pretty much anyone would agree I think that brain surgery takes skill, though, right? But if you talk to a surgeon, there are operations that they have done so many times they are essentially on automatic and can mostly think about other stuff while they are doing it. Does that mean it doesn't take skill?

EQ can be simple, and often is. It can also very suddenly get really complicated and hard to manage, and only a combination of luck, skill, and teamwork will let the group survive. That takes skill.

Jibartik
07-09-2019, 09:38 AM
Being "good" at Everquest requires the same mix of things that are required to be good at anything else.

I think social skills are important. It helps being able to rally people to your cause, to work as part of a team, be a good follower or good leader.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that being good at everquest requires gamified versions of everything that being good at real life requires.

Saving your money.

Working hard for the lion share of the day.

Keeping your inventory, and bank clean.

Making friends and networking.

Investing in new equipment to get more, new equipment.

Finding a true love to make a baby ok wait.

Jimjam
07-09-2019, 10:22 AM
The true love is fungal and the baby is a melee alt.

Tecmos Deception
07-09-2019, 10:35 AM
Living right now though, I could care less about people 1000 years from now. Today is today. What kind of life is "Nothing you do matters, no one cares, chill out" while it might be true in the grand scheme of things it does rob you of a certain vitality and a passive acceptance, its too weak to be a functioning frame of thought.

Dust in the wind, ashes to ashes.. doesn't help you get over that obstacle.

https://youtu.be/ySjxZDT_5SA?t=24

Also the riddle in Shadows of Amn where the bridge asks you which step on your journey is the most important, and the correct answer is "The current step, for it is the only one that I have any control over."

Mblake81
07-09-2019, 10:48 AM
Also the riddle in Shadows of Amn where the bridge asks you which step on your journey is the most important, and the correct answer is "The current step, for it is the only one that I have any control over."

"You may pass"

https://i.imgur.com/WWHKcLZ.jpg

fastboy21
07-09-2019, 12:25 PM
One of the issues I've had on p99 is that I get tired of dealing with folks who think they are the elite 1-5% of the server because they have great EQ gear.

On p99 having that type of gear puts you in the top 50% of p99, not the top 5% like on live. Folks are actively role-playing being an elite jerk who is "good" at EQ when they weren't even able to get max level back on live.

To be sure, I have actually met some great EQ players on p99 who would have been (and in some cases actually were) from that elite strata on live...but it rarely has anything to do with their gear...and certainly not with their inflated egos.

Arkanjil
07-09-2019, 01:06 PM
One of the issues I've had on p99 is that I get tired of dealing with folks who think they are the elite 1-5% of the server because they have great EQ gear.

On p99 having that type of gear puts you in the top 50% of p99, not the top 5% like on live. Folks are actively role-playing being an elite jerk who is "good" at EQ when they weren't even able to get max level back on live.

To be sure, I have actually met some great EQ players on p99 who would have been (and in some cases actually were) from that elite strata on live...but it rarely has anything to do with their gear...and certainly not with their inflated egos.

Preach

DromalPhrenia
07-09-2019, 02:01 PM
EQ takes skill. I know this because I am terrible and others are not, so they are more skilled than I.

Zalaerian
07-09-2019, 02:38 PM
No, this game takes no skill

Jibartik
07-09-2019, 02:39 PM
*pulls 16 mobs to the group and wipes it.

Zalaerian
07-09-2019, 02:43 PM
PVE is snore fest prior to Luclin. Even then, HP, Cursed and Emp are slightly engaging

Jibartik
07-09-2019, 02:46 PM
*dies to a gorehound wolf add on green99

Tuljin
07-09-2019, 03:21 PM
Playing EQ well takes skill. Owning gear does not.

Being a puller who balances his rate to provide fun and exp and loot chances for his group without overwhelming them or boring them. Extra credit if you can do that without stepping on the toes of the people next door or losing nameds to a lame solo chanter sniper.

Breaking fear solo as a druid. Soloing protector as a shaman. Crawling through named velks dogs as a chanter. Generally tackling content with small numbers. Leveling with a few pals in the bottom of najena or dalnir instead of in Oasis or FM. Being a good bard. Etc

There is a vast difference between the skill of a good and a bad EQ player. The issue is that most players on P99 can't even tell the difference.

Many players rarely have the fortune of playing with a good player because gear inflation plays a big role in getting every nub on the server to 60 sooner or later. You can be sloppy with pulls when you have giant HP and mana pools and your melee classes are dealing tons of damage with twink gear. The "skill" is unnecessary for most.

The people who end up playing on the Green server will be those who are serious EQ heads and those who are brand new to the game without too much in between. Many current P99 players don't want to reroll because they will "lose what they worked for." Tons of people will play the official Vanilla WoW in August and do their carrot-on-a-stick-for-XP quests and be perfectly happy.

Some players on this server want to play EQ just for playing EQs sake and just keep rerolling and relevling toons. If you're lucky enough to run into one in your travels you will see "skill" and maybe learn a thing or two.

Jibartik
07-09-2019, 03:24 PM
If I am pulling at the CE you will kill the princess and the cloaked dehamp multiple times.

If other people are pulling you will kill gypsies and werewolves.

But then again I am bad at eq because I have never had more than 100k at one time?

I have no idea.

I am a good driver, but I suck simultaneously ;)

Edit: Wait Im a good driver, bad race car owner. :D

Zalaerian
07-09-2019, 04:55 PM
Nothing engages the chanter in a raid outside Vyemm in TOV and soloing to 60 on one is joke.

Shame red and blue won’t see Luclin. Only using two chanters for emp adds actually took a brain somewhat.

Jibartik
07-09-2019, 06:09 PM
Wrong thread bruh :o

Posting on forums takes skill boys :)

Arkanjil
07-09-2019, 06:23 PM
The difference between a skilled bard and one who just plays manasong and occasionally mezzes in groups is night and day.

indiscriminate_hater
07-09-2019, 06:34 PM
The difference between a skilled bard and one who just plays manasong and occasionally mezzes in groups is night and day.

another thing i've noticed: only people who are skilled at the game themselves can recognize if a bard is playing well or not

Gozuk
07-09-2019, 06:43 PM
I'd be ranked higher if my teammates didn't constantly feed

xeffo
07-10-2019, 12:56 PM
/gems

also on Povar I don't think anybody had full BiS; we (Rising Ascension) were also killing Vulak around the same time Triton was.

Ligma
07-10-2019, 01:03 PM
No. But in luclin there were lots that would be considered BIS minus some AHR loot. There's just so much loot in VT and it was trivial for a lot of servers to completely cockblock emp.

Ravager
07-10-2019, 05:04 PM
Except there are no additional painters to fuck with your progress and there are no consequences to disregarding the numbers altogether or chances of the paint being wiped clean if you stop suddenly at a certain area on the canvas. The only potential risk involves pulling a Van Gogh and consuming the paint.

Playing speed chess and driving a car are better comparisons. You might have a blindspot or two but, while engaged in either, you have a good idea of the possibilities ahead within the agreed upon parameters. If those parameters are ignored, you risk embarrassment in one and injury in the other. Also, with both, it's important to get a feel for the other participants (your opponent/fellow motorists) enough so you can Intuit their next moves and adjust your own as needed.

If the elderly are not challenged by it, than it wasn't designed for you to show off your skills. And it's an insult to the original devs to suggest their game is as easy as paint by numbers. Our adolescent selves died and cursed endlessly at these colors and numbers. The lines weren't so visible then as they are now.
lol, there are no consequences period. Nothing here is new, there's nothing to figure out or improve on. Programming a computer to play chess at a human level was a remarkable feat. EverQuest is less than trivial by comparison. It's a coloring book with instructions on where to put the colors. The wiki is so thorough it even tells you which crayons to use and which direction to scrawl your lines. Everyone needs to stop pretending there's anything impressive about accomplishing anything here. Finding the time to waste is the only "feat" being accomplished. Just sit back and enjoy it for the mindless time killer it is.

Daloon
07-10-2019, 05:08 PM
Aten Ha Ra's quest neck alone was like 8 months worth of DKP, so no. Maybe in PoP, that shit went on for awhile. Velious and Kunark no fuckin way.

Ligma
07-10-2019, 05:55 PM
VT was like a 3 day spawn time though. With neck dropping everytime that's 100+ not even counting server resets. Problem with AHR was a huge loot table but even still there was plenty of great alternatives to AHR BiS. For instance, you could consider emp robe BiS over AHR. I know I never considered getting AHR after getting emp.

fastboy21
07-10-2019, 06:54 PM
Still same problem, but luclin was more forgiving because there was were plenty of very nice very high-end alternatives to what might have been considered BiS for most classes in most slots.

Forgetting the problem of even knowing what is definitive BiS for each class in each slot in luclin (which gets a bit muddy) you still wind up with the reality of putting together a wish list of gear, raiding with a large guild where there are plenty with wish lists that have your items on it, a significant RNG luck of the draw to get the item to drop, etc.

Even for the highest end guilds you'd still have to pick and choose and probably run out of clears before PoP released before you got everything on your list. It was more about a handful of key items (focus effects, FT, clickies, etc.) for each class or player style than it was about some concept of max'ing out your toon with BiS items. To be honest, I'm not sure I even used the expression BiS in EQ until GoD.

This gap was also widened by the introduction of AA during luclin, etc.

Ennewi
07-11-2019, 09:49 AM
lol, there are no consequences period.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328634

Nothing here is new

That's been the idea on the RPG side of things, meticulously recreating the old world from behind-the-scenes (and that process is new, as we've seen with the team still puzzling through certain issues, sometimes with amusing/frustrating results, and ironing out those wrinkles). Mob run speed. Night blindness. Infinite skipping stone. The list goes on. All of it new/unique to the project. On the MMO side though? That's what keeps the server new...players who join/return and figure out things as they go.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2391761
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126304

there's nothing to figure out or improve on.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6
https://web.archive.org/web/20011101000000*/everlore.com

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=everquest+mysteries

It's a coloring book with instructions on where to put the colors. The wiki is so thorough it even tells you which crayons to use and which direction to scrawl your lines. Everyone needs to stop pretending there's anything impressive about accomplishing anything here.

Crayonsplaining? Color me impressed. (https://www.reddit.com/r/puns/comments/ahcpsu/well_color_me_impressed/)

Finding the time to waste is the only "feat" being accomplished.

Sever-wide friendship is a feat we can all unlock together...