Will Hybrid XP penalties be implemented on Green Server launch?

[Chortles Snort|eS]

me asking for a frend..!

[Jimjam]

P1999 follows the classic timeline of live's patches, including nerfs, expansions and other changes.

I think the penalties will be included.


What do you think?

[Chortles Snort|eS]

wUt mE thinK is nOt wuT mE hoPe FreND!

[port9001]

Likely

[NegaStoat]

A lot of players would like to see additions or improvements to their characters that were available in Kunark and Velious right at launch, and I'm willing to bet that Green will launch with classic patching instead on all counts so there's no favoritism. The experience values of cloth casters, monks, and hybrids will be there.

The big question however will be the duration of the server and what happens at the end of its natural expansion / patch life span. If characters are kept beyond velious' normal endpoint then the hybrid tax is a big deal but not crippling. If the characters are wiped then anyone playing a hybrid is being asked to work under an experience penalty for close to 70% of the server's life span. Which is really dumb.

[Halfcell]

When the question is "I know this is classic, but it sucks, will it be there?" The answer is almost certainly yes.

When the question is "This is hella not classic, but P99 did it anyway, will it be there?" The answer is also yes.

[loramin]

Another way to look at it is, "what did Blue (beta Green) do?" ... and Blue had penalties.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

ChorTLEs fEel GrUP XP peNaLtY V BaD! me TroLL cuZin iZ SK an hE neVaR FInD JoB in GuK!

FeeLS BaD mAN!

[slowpoke68]

Do monks get an xp penalty? I don't remember that.

[jolanar]

Do monks get an xp penalty? I don't remember that.

Yes. 20%.


Paladin / Shadowknight / Ranger / Bard -40%
Monk -20%
Wizard / Magician / Enchanter / Necromancer -10%
Rogue +9%
Warrior +10%

[Bardp1999]

For a large portion of Blue's life span getting a group as a Hybrid was neigh impossible because no one wants a 40% experience penalty + whatever Racial penalty soaking up huge amounts of experience in their group. If you want to play a Hybrid on Green prepare to be very lonely from 50-60. At least Paladins and SKs can tank so they get a bone thrown to them at times, but Bards and Rangers are going to be shunned so hard it's not even funny.

[Swish2]

"Too many hybrids guys, no point inviting that rangeR"

[Swish2]

For a large portion of Blue's life span getting a group as a Hybrid was neigh impossible because no one wants a 40% experience penalty + whatever Racial penalty soaking up huge amounts of experience in their group. If you want to play a Hybrid on Green prepare to be very lonely from 50-60. At least Paladins and SKs can tank so they get a bone thrown to them at times, but Bards and Rangers are going to be shunned so hard it's not even funny.

Bards will get some love, the utility of a good bard is great.

[Nuggie]

For a large portion of Blue's life span getting a group as a Hybrid was neigh impossible because no one wants a 40% experience penalty + whatever Racial penalty soaking up huge amounts of experience in their group. If you want to play a Hybrid on Green prepare to be very lonely from 50-60. At least Paladins and SKs can tank so they get a bone thrown to them at times, but Bards and Rangers are going to be shunned so hard it's not even funny.

Ahhh... yea... bards are going to have it real tough :rolleyes:

[slowpoke68]

Yes. 20%.


Paladin / Shadowknight / Ranger / Bard -40%
Monk -20%
Wizard / Magician / Enchanter / Necromancer -10%
Rogue +9%
Warrior +10%

Thanks! Never knew that about monks. Come to think of it I didn't realize Bards got hit with the hybrid penalty either.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

groupS wiLL nO WaNt 69 purrcEnt xP losS!!!!

[Zuranthium]

For a large portion of Blue's life span getting a group as a Hybrid was neigh impossible because no one wants a 40% experience penalty + whatever Racial penalty soaking up huge amounts of experience in their group. If you want to play a Hybrid on Green prepare to be very lonely from 50-60. At least Paladins and SKs can tank so they get a bone thrown to them at times, but Bards and Rangers are going to be shunned so hard it's not even funny.

Pally's and SK's don't really tank any better than other melee classes in early EQ. Everyone's using the same Rubicite armor and the skill caps are similar. Pally/SK just have a little more hitpoints, which doesn't do anything to stop damage. Rogues actually have slightly higher Dodge/Parry skillcaps and could be a "tank" if needed.

A well played Bard should be wanted in plenty of groups. Pet classes are the real DPS in Classic EQ and they get that with Charm. It's not ideal because of how much it breaks, but they can still generate good DPS and play a couple other songs; often enough that's worth the exp penalty. Not for the best min/max group possible, but every group won't have that option.

The other hybrid classes though, often don't pull their weight in terms of the exp penalty. Ranger needs situations where Harmony/Snare allow the group to manage a camp, or maybe SoW/Tracking for some reason, otherwise it's slowing people down. Paladin needs to have Ghoulbane and be fighting undead or else they are pitiful. You better plan to live in Upper Guk until you get that weapon and then live in Lower Guk dead side after that. Any other scenario of playing the class would fequently feel bad to me. Remember, hybrids don't get meditate in early EQ and they have very small mana pools, so Ranger/Paladin don't contribute much in terms of helping with downtime healing, and can't use Root very often, etc. Clarity from an Enchanter is a huge boost in this regard, but not having meditate still hurts.

Shadowknight has the best skillset and will more frequently be "worth" the exp penalty. They do good DPS when giving their pet a fine steel dagger(s) and Harmtouch becomes relevant for racing to 51% damage on a specific contested NPC. They have snare ability for the areas where that's helpful and they have Feign Death to help with pulling or creating trains (yep).

[Pindrought]

Shadowknight has the best skillset and will more frequently be "worth" the exp penalty. They do good DPS when giving their pet a fine steel dagger(s) and Harmtouch becomes relevant for racing to 51% damage on a specific contested NPC. They have snare ability for the areas where that's helpful and they have Feign Death to help with pulling or creating trains (yep).

KS'ing and training people are both against the rules so what relevance does that have? Or is there something i'm missing?

[Zuranthium]

KS'ing and training people are both against the rules

Not in Classic they weren't, particularly the former.

[fastboy21]

Nothing from I have seen on blue or read from Rogean/Nilbog would indicate that the exp penalties would not be present on green according to the timeline.

Personally, I think it is fair...the exp penalty is part of the game, not a quality of life issue (like linking items or getting the /tells you missed while zoning) or a UI issue (like lighting). I'd be surprised if they removed the vanilla exp system.

[Pindrought]

Not in Classic they weren't, particularly the former.

They are on P99 so who cares?

[Zuranthium]

so who cares?

People who care about Classic, which is what P99 is allegedly trying to re-create.

[Synthlol]

Yes. 20%.


Paladin / Shadowknight / Ranger / Bard -40%
Monk -20%
Wizard / Magician / Enchanter / Necromancer -10%
Rogue +9%
Warrior +10%

The magnitudes of these values are correct, but by listing their opposites you're perpetuating the myth that the EXP penalty is a penalty to the amount of EXP that is earned, when it is actually an increase in the amount of total of EXP needed to reach each level.

Hybrids need 40% more EXP to reach each level, monks need 20% more EXP, warriors need 10% less, and so on. They all earn exp at the same rate.

[pink grapefruit]

Hybrids didn't get meditate in classic?

[Danth]

Hybrids didn't get meditate in classic?

I don't remember them not having it, but I didn't play EQ directly at launch either. If they didn't, it must have been added real early.

Hybrids had meditate from the start on P99. They also had their early 2000 spellsets rather than their original 1999 spellsets. Likewise casting never reset melee delay on P1999 and they never had the original small hybrid mana pools.

It should be assumed that class penalties will be present on a P99 do-over server.

Danth

[pink grapefruit]

Will blue and red finally get shortie team hybrids when green releases?

[Pindrought]

People who care about Classic, which is what P99 is allegedly trying to re-create.

You're missing the point... You mentioned a class and pros that would've applied to original classic but have no relevancy in green as the pros you mentioned relate to rule breaking.

[pink grapefruit]

SZ style no rules server seems great. Hope the devs go with that. Will simplify things for the GMs, too. I'd love to be able to train ppl on p99 without getting banned.

[aaezil]

“I would love to be able to be toxic with no repercussions”

[Pindrought]

“I would love to be able to be toxic with no repercussions”

While on one hand I hate the rules related to the raid scene, I think for the general game certain anti grief rules are a bit necessary.

I'm the kind of player who loves breaking game mechanics but it seems like people who want "no rules" are either naive or really think everyone else will be too stupid to one up them on the grief wars.

[Jimjam]

To keep it classic staff should keep it secret.

Everquest game mechanics are best kept opaque.

[Zuranthium]

You're missing the point...

I'm not. The mission statement of this website says: "Relive the classic Everquest MMORPG Gaming Experience as it was in 1999 and onward."

Contesting NPC's by doing the most damage was part of the game for the first year of its existence. "Kill Stealing" is a fabricated term by players who didn't want to compete. Eventually the game company decided those players should be catered to (instead of fixing the underlying problems of the game design), and the entire MMORPG genre has been worse off ever since. Less immersive, less dynamic, less spontaneous; pixel farms instead of open world experiences.

A game's playerbase is supposed to deal with issues like this via in-game politics. Blacklist the more competitive players if you don't like their behavior. Some people will feel the same way and you can all band together and deny groups to the opposing faction. This was discussed in a recent thread, but it's important to note how the eventual Classic "Play Nice Policy" was different from what P99 has - nobody was EVER allowed to own a camp without possibility of contesting it in Classic. People had to take turns killing spawns after the "no kill stealing" change went in. The community still even played politics with that, to a degree; some people believed a camp should be owned by whoever got there first. Not all people/groups would invoke the Play Nice Policy, and would either wait for a group at a given camp, or form/find a group elsewhere (although some of that had to do with logistics; if you're trying to exp, then sharing a camp may not be productive enough).

Hybrids didn't get meditate in classic?

Not at release. That was the first buff hybrids got, like 6 or 7 months in. Then came the combat system change where casting a spell didn't reset the auto attack timer, maybe around 9 or 10 months in. These first two changes are poorly documented and weren't announced in patch notes (as was often the case with changes to the game), so I've not been able to find exact dates.

In Kunark era they got improved mana pools, slightly buffed spell tables, and a small increase to 2-hand weapon damage (this wasn't specific to hybrids, but impacted Pally's/SK's most especially). Yet they were worse in this era, because of having bad skill caps in comparison to other melee classes, and also because exp penalties being "shared" with groups became more common knowledge. Then in Velious came the removal of exp penalties, a few more new spells, buffs to their "unique" class abilities: Harm Touch/Lay on Hands/Tracking, and finally at the very end of Velious an across-the-board stat increase and big increase to 2-hand weapon damage.

[Jimjam]

I must admit I sometimes feel there is a layer of redundancy between having rules imposed on players that conflict with the core game mechanics.

Being able to burst dps with a wizard to secure loot rights on a named would make them much more desirable to groups where the spoils are decided by most damage done!

[Primordial Ooze]

I mean, for anyone thinking they want to finally start that troll SK, they're almost certainly going to create it on blue and not green. Among the many other ways this differs from classic, there's also the fact that on p99 you'll have a choice. And in a lot of ways it will make more sense to start that hybrid on blue, so there will just be a huge dearth of those classes on green.

[Zuranthium]

I must admit I sometimes feel there is a layer of redundancy between having rules imposed on players that conflict with the core game mechanics.

Being able to burst dps with a wizard to secure loot rights on a named would make them much more desirable to groups where the spoils are decided by most damage done!

It was even a common thing in Classic that people would bluff by saying "if you don't stop fighting *our* mobs, I'll call my Wizard friend over here and you won't get any kills." Except sometimes it wasn't a bluff, particularly since Wizards have the porting ability. They were able to be the police of Norrath. Although pet classes could still out-DPS Wizards a lot of the time even in Burst scenarios, since they had decent enough nukes on top of the (often very overpowered) pet damage. Waa waa.

After the Play Nice Policy got put in, that's when discussion about Wizard DPS being bad became rampant. This sentiment was already fairly common by early 2000, when more higher quality weapons had spawned their way into the game world, but then on top of it the ability to "nuke" things just became mostly irrelevant. A couple of my guildies quit playing shortly into Kunark, being fed up with how insignificant their class felt in the game by that point. The planar gear bump for melee in Classic was nothing compared to Kunark inflation!

[Jimjam]

Kunark really did kill Norrath.

[jolanar]

I must admit I sometimes feel there is a layer of redundancy between having rules imposed on players that conflict with the core game mechanics.

Being able to burst dps with a wizard to secure loot rights on a named would make them much more desirable to groups where the spoils are decided by most damage done!

You could very easily use this same logic to imply that feign death training people is a core game mechanic.

[Troxx]

The magnitudes of these values are correct, but by listing their opposites you're perpetuating the myth that the EXP penalty is a penalty to the amount of EXP that is earned, when it is actually an increase in the amount of total of EXP needed to reach each level.

Hybrids need 40% more EXP to reach each level, monks need 20% more EXP, warriors need 10% less, and so on. They all earn exp at the same rate.

Given how xp is split in Classic eq it absolutely has an effect on how fast group mates earn xp. Inviting a hybrid (especially a hybrid with compounding racial penalty) means everyone else gets a smaller piece of the pie kill after kill after kill.

I barded before the penalty was removed. It absolutely impacted group opportunities though I typically did a good enough job that repeat invites were easy once my name was well known.

But the rangers? Troll sks? Yeah that was a different matter. I watched several times groups in group chat unanimously veto a lfg undesirable for this reason. I watched groups dissolve over arguments about letting somebody’s buddy join who had a big penalty.

It was shameful but it did happen. I would like to think the community on green will behave more maturely but it doesn’t take much consideration of the raid dynamic on this server (and the rants/flames part of this forum) to see that it will happen all over again.

Hybrids need to be prepared to be lonely and lfg unless they have a tight squad or guild willing to overlook fairly massive xp burdens in having them along.

[Pindrought]

I'm not. The mission statement of this website says: "Relive the classic Everquest MMORPG Gaming Experience as it was in 1999 and onward."

From that statement you really got the impression that they were going to remove all the rules and PNP for green? You have to be trolling at this point. :D

[Erati]

Hybrid gonna be brutal on Green.

Bless their hearts.

[pink grapefruit]

“I would love to be able to be toxic with no repercussions”

This is already a thing, in the form of fungi twinks/PLers monopolizing camps and zones, bards AE kiting, high end raid guilds monopolizing raid encounters, etc etc. If anything, doing away with the play nice policy would in some instances give your average casual player the means to fight back and level the playing field some. One of my fondest memories on red99 was spam casting snares on a bard AE kiting in the overthere until one landed and I was finally able to get back to xping.

Besides, it's never "no repercussions". In a game like EQ, where the social aspects and sense of community are the game, it should be the social repercussions that players fear the most. I say the devs and GMs have too much power, and it should be given back to the players themselves.

[Keza]

It was even a common thing in Classic that people would bluff by saying "if you don't stop fighting *our* mobs, I'll call my Wizard friend over here and you won't get any kills." Except sometimes it wasn't a bluff, particularly since Wizards have the porting ability. They were able to be the police of Norrath. Although pet classes could still out-DPS Wizards a lot of the time even in Burst scenarios, since they had decent enough nukes on top of the (often very overpowered) pet damage. Waa waa.

After the Play Nice Policy got put in, that's when discussion about Wizard DPS being bad became rampant.

So this, accompanied with your previous posts claiming KS'ing/training are fine because they were supposedly allowed in classic and that green should mimic this, proves that - without a shred of doubt - your personal memory of what was allowed and what is acceptable is what classic should be. What if I remember all gnolls looking like Ted Nugent? Doesn't that mean they should all look like Ted Nugent? Or are you going to provide some evidence that wizards were the police of Norrath permitted to grief other people by Verant.

IIRC all of your posts suggest you are living in a memory where everything you think is law. Have you ever considered someone got away with doing something they weren't supposed to and that you're crazy for thinking that means it's allowed?

And yes, hybrid penalty will obviously be on green.

[aaezil]

What makes you think it will be a new server?

Annoucement was just a picture that says a new adventure

[pink grapefruit]

rogean takin us all camping? :O

[honeybee12874]

What makes you think it will be a new server?

Annoucement was just a picture that says a new adventure

Hehehe, right!

So many possibilities.... so much conjecture! :D

[Jibartik]

I haven't read any of this thread, but let me guess, half of it is zuranthium talking about play nice policy being unclassic? :o

[Evia]

I haven't read any of this thread, but let me guess, half of it is zuranthium talking about play nice policy being unclassic? :o

Zuranthium for 500 please

[Zuranthium]

So this, accompanied with your previous posts claiming KS'ing/training are fine because they were supposedly allowed in classic and that green should mimic this, proves that - without a shred of doubt - your personal memory of what was allowed and what is acceptable is what classic should be. Or are you going to provide some evidence that wizards were the police of Norrath permitted to grief other people by Verant.

It wasn't "grief". It's competition, and a living society, with players deciding what position they want to take within the world.

And it's not just my personal memory on the matter (which is perfectly sound, thanks). There has already been proof posted in other threads. The PnP was not implemented until 1 year into the game, and one of the game designers specifically talks in that announcement about how they allowed "kill stealing" (aka, competition via damage dealt) to be part of the game up until that point. Other EQ game designers have also talked in various interviews about how it was allowed and is something they want in their future games.

There are also articles/posts you can find via internet archive where players talked about strategies in 1999 for how to win damage races or how to deal with "kill stealers". It was part of the gameplay, and it was spicy. Norrath was alive. Also note that on EQ Live, they eventually abolished these aspects of the PnP, and contesting content via damage dealt is again the law of the land.

[loramin]

And it's not just my personal memory on the matter (which is perfectly sound, thanks). There has already been proof posted in other threads.

I think the only thing that has been consistently proven about live CS ... is that the GMs/guides in that era were anything but consistent.

[Pindrought]

It wasn't "grief". It's competition, and a living society, with players deciding what position they want to take within the world.

And it's not just my personal memory on the matter (which is perfectly sound, thanks). There has already been proof posted in other threads. The PnP was not implemented until 1 year into the game, and one of the game designers specifically talks in that announcement about how they allowed "kill stealing" (aka, competition via damage dealt) to be part of the game up until that point. Other EQ game designers have also talked in various interviews about how it was allowed and is something they want in their future games.

There are also articles/posts you can find via internet archive where players talked about strategies in 1999 for how to win damage races or how to deal with "kill stealers". It was part of the gameplay, and it was spicy. Norrath was alive. Also note that on EQ Live, they eventually abolished these aspects of the PnP, and contesting content via damage dealt is again the law of the land.

That's gonna be a yikes from me folks.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

https://i.imgur.com/xqGKZMH.png

[Zuranthium]

I think the only thing that has been consistently proven about live CS ... is that the GMs/guides in that era were anything but consistent.

GM's/guides being able to abuse their power or do things on a whim if they wanted, is a separate issue from the mandated rules of the game designers. It's a proven fact of what their mindset was. Nobody was getting banned for damaging mobs and contesting the content ("kill stealing", as the less adventurous playerbase began calling it), and contesting content was always part of the game, even if it took on a different form when the PnP came about.

[loramin]

GM's/guides being able to abuse their power or do things on a whim if they wanted, is a separate issue from the mandated rules of the game designers. It's a proven fact of what their mindset was. Nobody was getting banned for damaging mobs and contesting the content ("kill stealing", as the less adventurous playerbase began calling it), and contesting content was always part of the game, even if it took on a different form when the PnP came about.

I'm no expert on the classic era GM policies (my cousin did work as an SOE CSR not too long after the classic period ... but even she doesn't remember much). Really I don't think anyone is much of an expert ... and I think that's a very important point.

Very few people even filed contested content complaints in the classic era. Again, I have no facts on the exact percentage, but if you read accounts about this stuff from people who played during live one thing you will hear consistently, over and over again, is "I never petitioned anyone over contested content (or even thought to petition over that)".

So not only does this mean that we don't have a lot of data points to work with, it also means that whatever the policy was on live, a huge part of that policy was player ignorance (of the rules, of how contested content should be resolved, of when to contact a GM, etc.). Project 1999 can never restore that ignorance, and as such saying "P99 should do this thing that live did (that only worked because of the ignorance)" is an inherently flawed proposition.

Live was an apple, we're an orange, and nothing can change that.

[Zuranthium]

The argument of "player ignorance" can be made about virtually ANYTHING in the game. P99 is usually only trying to recreate the shell of the game as it existed, not changing things based upon player knowledge now. They just want to put into place the exact mechanics that existed back then, so people can see how it worked (and have nostalgia fests). A much better game could be created if they changed their design goal, but that does not seem to be their current goal.

The concept of player ignorance is actually part of why the soft sect of the playerbase got so offended about "kill stealing" in the first place. They weren't trying to play an MMORPG; they went into the game expecting more of a console type experience, with multi-player option. Further, the vast majority of the playerbase back then had little idea about where the best exp spots were, or even where to go at all to level up. So as soon as they found a decent place to exp, they tended to want to stay in that zone. When you combine that with server overpopulation (a big fault on the part of Verant at the time), it lead to some players feeling like they couldn't level up well enough. The level of competition kept getting higher and they couldn't cope with it.

Your core thesis is wrong to begin with, because this topic was talked about ALL over the internet back then, and on the official Everquest message boards. The game developers were fully aware and did not outlaw it until the PnP. It was part of the game. It was part of pretty much every MUD in existence before EQ existed, which is what the game was based on.

[Buellen]

Hmm manifesto posting again. Eh Z.
I will say it again start a new thread with your ideas and see how many you can convert to your ideology of how the new server should be run.

With respect

[aaezil]

Admirable loramin bait

[Canelek]

That was a long time ago. Memories vary wildly... I distinctly remember camps, of course. I also remember always having a HT up to outburst the occasional intrepid person showing up to nail a named as it would pop.

But a constant "competition" for mobs via doing more damage was more of an outlier, at least on Veeshan (the greatest server). Both camps and DPS-racing bring out the worst in people, but that is just the way this game works until they made most named mobs trivial due to easy to achieve upgrades in low/mid-tier raiding (especially with PoP and level cap increase to 65).

[Zuranthium]

Hmm manifesto posting again. Eh Z.
I will say it again start a new thread with your ideas and see how many you can convert to your ideology of how the new server should be run.

It's not "my ideas". It's factual history, and P99 states they are trying to recreate it. People here need to stop trying to alter textbook history, or being willfully ignorant of it, just because you don't like the way it sounds. If you didn't play EQ extensively in early/mid '99, didn't follow its development, didn't read the messages boards back then, and didn't play MUD's in the mid-to-late 90's, then you simply don't know what you're talking about. I'd like to see an accurate representation of history preserved, not a ludicrous "War of Northern Aggression" type mentality. Thanks.

[Buellen]

Ok Zuranthium

You will not convert me. I will play however the dev run the sever.

maybe stop trying to derail post to your view whatever that is.

[Buellen]

if you feel so strongly about this view of yours.

then take it to bug forum and post all your proof and data.

post walls of text in this forum those not get you heard to change new server direction but just maybe you will get a response from someone that matters there

With respect

[Zuranthium]

then take it to bug forum and post all your proof and data.

There's no 1999 era server in existence on P99 right now, and no official announcement of what the new server will have exactly, so therefore these things can not be posted in the Bug forum right now. The devs read other sections of the forum, however.

[aaezil]

One or two guys crying that they cant KS or train people here isnt going to get any rules changed here but nice rant(s)

[Zuranthium]

One or two guys crying that they cant KS or train people here isnt going to get any rules changed here but nice rant(s)

:rolleyes:

You don't understand the subject, nor the history of the game. P99 explicitly states they are trying to recreate the game, as it existed back then. Try again (actually, don't, as it wastes forum space).

[pink grapefruit]

The pnp argument is very silly, but I'd definitely like to see a "no rules" version of p99.

[loramin]

:rolleyes:

Man, the eye roller deserves the eye rolls here! The people behind Project 199 are very explicitly NOT trying:

to recreate the game, as it existed back then

... and there is a wealth of evidence (http://wiki.project1999.com/Non-Classic_Compendium) demonstrating as much.

From FTE announcements to OOT boat directions to (not) crossing Siren's Grotto via a glitch, this server is full of things which are intentionally not the way they were back in '99-'01.

In general of course R&N do try to make most things like they were "back in the day", but time after time they've demonstrated that when it comes to making things work on Project 1999 they're not wiling to diverge from. (And again, it's 100% unavoidable that P99 and live will be apples and oranges on some things, due to factors like increased player knowledge, so anyone in R&N's shoes would have the same issues).

In your denial/fantasy world maybe Rogean and Nilbog want to create exactly what existed back then, including the lack of a PnP. But in reality no one but you feels that way.

[Zuranthium]

The pnp argument is very silly

...how is it silly. It's classic game code. Directly stated by the game devs. We have more concrete evidence on this than a lot of other code areas, like the exact formulas for how resists and AC worked back then.

The people behind Project 199 are very explicitly NOT trying to recreate the game as it existed back then

Yes they are. Stop being so daft. It exactly says that on the website's homepage, and constant effort has been made to recreate exact code details. They've strayed at times, but hardcore maintained the mantra wherever feasible.

But in reality no one but you feels that way.

Total fallacy.

[loramin]

They've strayed at times, but hardcore maintained the mantra wherever feasible.

Translation: I like to ignore things that don't fit my argument. It makes it a lot easier to hold to my impossible argument that way.

(And also I'll ignore the giant glaring hole that R&N have clearly not found it feasible, even though doing so would have greatly lowered their need for volunteer CSRs.)

[Nisse]

You can go experience your anarchist paradise on live Everquest servers right now and repeatedly get your shit pushed in by a boxed mage army, or some ae groups puller running the entire zone over the top of you and your pals trying to mind your business killing frogs or dogmen so you don't slow down their rmt business. Some of the end-game raid zones might benefit by going non-csr, freeing up the limited human resources we have. But forcing noob players wearing cloth armor and a club* to dps race super twinks at orc 1 is a really stupid idea.

[platapus]

I think I see your argument Zur...

I could see how someone would want players on the green server to behave more the way they did on live... and how these PnP changes you pitch could create that.

Like, the PnP on blue may be fine, but perhaps to re-create the way we felt back in 1999 what Zur suggests is more ideal? Guides and GM's, even the developers, nobody knew what these types of games would be like, so its true, it was basically the wild west for most players back then, maybe to get that classic feeling Zur has some good points? Although...

Unfortunately... I believe what you ask is not possible due to the physical laws of our universe!

The PnP rules today are designed such that it creates, the overall FEEL of a a classic server, on a server populated with hundreds of players that are playing with the combined knowledge of thousands of adult children who have, data-mined, logged, mapped, and planned out every possible strategy in the game of everquest for over 20 years.

Not to mention p99 players have honed their skills in the first three expansions for almost 10 years using and developing these mostly public strategies (THANKS LORAMIN :P).

The PnP today creates a more simulated version of what YOU experienced in 1999 as a cuckhold beta boy that got railroaded by young adult losers (who have long since died of heart attacks from clogged arteries) that would steal your camp every time you logged on after school.

I know you are trying really really hard, to recreate that ruleset, so you yourself can roleplay as one of those alpha players that pushed you out of every zone, but.. the sad news is... if there was a PnP that allowed for that type of play, you would be kicked out of every zone, by the extremely skilled alpha players of p99 today.

So like I said, what you seek is unfortunately not possible.

Perhaps one day, when we can delve into the multiverse, or maybe after we are dead and ushered through the pearly gates, can we can once again feel what it's like to play everquest having never seen or played anything like it before.

But as mortal men (and women, and whatever you are in between) we are stuck with the best we can simulate, thanks to a PnP that has been developed with the community for going on 10 years.

[Zuranthium]

Translation: I like to ignore things that don't fit my argument. It makes it a lot easier to hold to my impossible argument that way.

No, that's exactly what you're doing. Get some logic and perspective, seriously. All you're doing is futilely trying to argue against something that was 100% classic, and deeply part of the game (as compared to something more trivial like the direction of OOT boats), just because you don't like the sound of it. Posting that link was such a vacuous attempt at an argument, as most of the "non classic" items are that way specifically because it's impossible for them to code it or manage it as such.

The current raid rules and PnP on P99 would be your best argument, but that also doesn't mean those things can't be changed. It's entirely possible the devs weren't even aware of the specifics of the Classic PnP for a long time. If they were, then maybe they wouldn't have changed the Seafuries as they did, and instead declared the area FFA (a far better and more classic approach).

As has already been discussed, the Classic pre-PnP era requires less GM intervention. Kill stealing simply does not exist, unless it's extreme harassment (stalking someone around everywhere they go and directly trying to interfere with everything they can possibly do). Therefore, GM's don't have to deal with it. The classic era PnP doesn't require any extra time spent either, and is better for the economy.

You can go experience your anarchist paradise on live Everquest servers right now and repeatedly get your shit pushed in by a boxed mage army

Current live is hardly classic EQ environment. And there is no boxing allowed on P99 either. And if it did play Live EQ, there would be a multitude of places I could go, away from whatever spot the boxed mage army is playing in.

And, LOL, exact classic era EQ is not even a game I want to play! This is *entirely* about the actual facts of classic EQ, not about the exact server I would create as my ideal possible game. It's irrelevant that I prefer certain aspects of Classic EQ to what they are now. There are also things I don't prefer, yet have to accept, within this realm of discussion. In the end all that matters is accurate history.

forcing noob players wearing cloth armor and a club* to dps race super twinks at orc 1 is a really stupid idea.

Another fallacy, as there's no such thing as supertwinks when a server launches. Beyond that, there's far more places to fight than orc 1. This is a description of players being unadventurous and whining about their own tunnel-vision. Butcherblock and Steamfont are better starting areas than G-Fay, they have naturally lesser populations on top of it, and require very little travel time to reach.

[NegaStoat]

I'd just like to know who the asshat was that derailed this thread from Hybrid experience penalties and the new server to whatever the hell this is. Seriously, get a room.

[loramin]

As has already been discussed, the Classic pre-PnP era requires less GM intervention.

That's an argument against your position, not for it.

R&N have run this server for ten years. For ten years they could have instituted classic pre-PNP era policies, and doing so would have made their lives significantly easier. And yet ... they didn't.

Maybe they either:


A) know something you don't about what a nightmare your idea actually be (for them), and/or:
B) they just don't want the server you're describing (for the players)


You think classic non-PnP + modern server = classic server. Literally everyone else thinks that adds up to a mess, not a classic server. And yet you keep pushing the idea anyway, despite the fact that you've had absolutely no success whatsoever: not one single person in any of these threads you've taken over has replied "yeah, I buy what Zuranthium is selling".

And to be clear, you do take over other people's threads, in a disrespectful way. Changing a thread's topic organically is normal here, but you've followed a deliberate pattern for the past week or so. You ignore the topic at hand but use it as an excuse to go off on your pet issue, then reply to every response made (probably with the simplistic belief that by getting the last word you "win" the argument) ... until everyone talking to you realizes that they're talking to a wall. At that point the thread dies because the people originally interested in it have long since left.

You either just don't realize you're doing that, and don't realize that all this effort you're putting in is having absolutely no benefit whatsoever ... or that you realize it, but don't care, because the real audience of all this effort is R&N. And if that's the case, it suggests that:


A) you think they're complete morons who couldn't come up with the idea, but your revelation will enlighten them, and/or:
B) they have thought of it, but you you know better than them how to run the world's most popular emulated EQ server ... despite the fact that they've overseen literally tens of thousands of hours of volunteer CS effort


So which is it? Are you tone deaf and unaware of how anyone perceives your posts? Or aware but thinking "it doesn't matter, as long as I can enlighten R&N, which I'm totally doing with this campaign"? (Or both?)

[Troxx]

One or two guys crying that they cant KS or train people here isnt going to get any rules changed here but nice rant(s)


That's Zura in a nutshell.

[Troxx]

PS: The argument that anything classic should be in game also is an argument for the multiple plat and item duping bugs that were present in classic to be present on Green99. Oh yeah ... and classic didn't have strict no boxing policies of sniffers to root out people using MQ2. Come to think of it ... live (to include current version of it) never had hard blocks for MQ2 hackers! So should a classic green experience be void those things too? It is, after all, classic.

How about no.

The game/community stabilizing "not classic" things about this server are positive.

I'm all for keeping the PNP policy as is, disallowing boxing, disallowing hack/cheating, disallowing item/plat duping, and disallowing other stuff (like rampant non-classic aoe kiting/nuking) that keeps p99 the awesome thing it is.

[Nisse]

Current live is hardly classic EQ environment. And there is no boxing allowed on P99 either. And if it did play Live EQ, there would be a multitude of places I could go, away from whatever spot the boxed mage army is playing in.

And, LOL, exact classic era EQ is not even a game I want to play! This is *entirely* about the actual facts of classic EQ, not about the exact server I would create as my ideal possible game. It's irrelevant that I prefer certain aspects of Classic EQ to what they are now. There are also things I don't prefer, yet have to accept, within this realm of discussion. In the end all that matters is accurate history.



Another fallacy, as there's no such thing as supertwinks when a server launches. Beyond that, there's far more places to fight than orc 1. This is a description of players being unadventurous and whining about their own tunnel-vision. Butcherblock and Steamfont are better starting areas than G-Fay, they have naturally lesser populations on top of it, and require very little travel time to reach.

The point is you can go see your shitty idea in practice and the result is a toxic cesspool that favors the players worst instincts. The only positive would be server staff wouldn't have to deal with all the fuckheads making everyone's gaming experience suck. Cool server sounds fun.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

looK lieK cHorTleS jouRney GuN b ReaL lOng

[Primordial Ooze]

It's a lot easier to go from pre-PNP to PNP than the reverse. Now that the gen pop is long used to the difference, to go back to pre-PNP would attract the fuckshit asshats that just want to ruin people's days. Not sustainable by a long shot.

[Zuranthium]

The argument that anything classic should be in game also is an argument for the multiple plat and item duping bugs that were present in classic to be present on Green99. It is, after all, classic.

This is a total misrepresentation and straw-man. These things were NEVER okay with the game developers. People were banned for exploits. Contesting content via damage was not an exploit or a crime. It was part of the actual game, and it was more exciting, more dynamic.

The point is you can go see your shitty idea in practice and the result is a toxic cesspool that favors the players worst instincts.

No. The current P99 policy is the most toxic of all. People being able to own camps without any possibility of contesting means that content becomes controlled by no-life players, locking other players out of even trying, making the game world that much more artificial.

Everquest was at its best in 1999, when the "shitty idea" was in place. Your conception of EQ seems to be Farmville, or brainless superficiality of "achievement" by gaining a pixel in a video game, via a method that requires little-to-no actual skill or interactivity. That's not what the game, and the MMORPG genre, is supposed to be. That's sadly just what it has turned into: hollow boxes with no real soul or adventure left.

---

R&N have run this server for ten years. For ten years they could have instituted classic pre-PNP era policies.

Stop and think before writing this shit. They couldn't have, if being true to timeline, because the server has been in Kunark era for over 8 years. You also ignore the possibility that they didn't know or remember the exact specifics of the classic PNP and the earliest era before it, like most people here, and thus came up with a non-classic PNP (which should be changed).

You ignore the topic at hand but use it as an excuse to go off on your pet issue

You either need better reading comprehension, or need to stop repeating the same wrong assumptions. If you actually read the content of the thread, then you'll see I was responding to other posters about the subject being discussed, and provided a very detailed discourse on the subject. The conversation naturally developed from there.

because the real audience of all this effort is R&N. And if that's the case, it suggests that:


A) you think they're complete morons who couldn't come up with the idea, but your revelation will enlighten them, and/or:
B) you think you know better than them how to run the world's most popular emulated EQ server, despite the fact that they've overseen (if not directly participated in, in the early days) tens of thousands of hours of volunteer CS effort


Not only fallacy, but also a really bad case of tunnel-vision adherence to status quo. Running the server for 10 years does not mean they have all the best ideas, nor the best policies or attentiveness. It simply means they own something. They were the first to come out with a relatively classic EQ server, which inherently made it popular. Your line of thinking is like arguing that McDonalds has the best food around, by virtue of its ubiquity. Yikes.

If they did know about the classic PNP for years now, and chose to never implement it, then they've never given any reasoning for why the current P99 system is better or justified. Without any communication of reasoning, there is a lack of clarity. Even then, it still wouldn't mean their decision was objectively the best one to take. They are not infallible, and discussing better solutions is productive. You don't need to be so counter-productive and keep naysaying everything with knee-jerk responses.

[Troxx]

This is a total misrepresentation and straw-man. These things were NEVER okay with the game developers. People were banned for exploits. Contesting content via damage was not an exploit or a crime. It was part of the actual game, and it was more exciting, more dynamic.

The institution of the PNP was not the revocation of an intended classic mechanic. It was reaction to poor behavior on the part of a bunch of children and man-children who thought that being in an online fantasy computer game world meant that basic human decency could be disregarded.

Verant assumed that people would know it’s not ok to ninjaloot, deceive, grief, kill steal. Obviously Verant’s trust in humanity was misplaced so they were forced to draft a set of policies not unlike the lessons we all learned in kindergarten with regards to playing in the same sandbox with other people without being dicks.

You have a warped, grandiose and twistedly fantasized view of what early Everquest before the PNP was actually like.

[Zuranthium]

The institution of the PNP was not the revocation of an intended classic mechanic. It was reaction to poor behavior on the part of a bunch of children and man-children who thought that being in an online fantasy computer game world meant that basic human decency could be disregarded. Verant assumed that people would know it’s not ok to ninjaloot, deceive, kill steal.

The mechanic was intended, this is not an accurate take. ACTUAL kill stealing was a thing in MUD's, where the games were sometimes coded so that whoever got the last hit on a mob got all the exp. They changed it for EQ to most damage dealt, so as to remove kill stealing. Dealing the most damage is an easy-to-understand method of competition. Whoever is most powerful wins the prize. If they wanted to code it so that only the first group to engage was allowed to fight, which was what some MUD's did, then they would have. That's not how they chose to code the game.

Competition in MUD's and games like Ultima Online revolved around players directly attacking each other, and the EQ designers didn't want all the servers to be about attacking players directly. Hence they had to come up with some other form of competition, in the case of disputes. What you describe as "poor behavior" is layered gameplay. Players have the choice to make decisions, which other players will judge them on. The game is supposed to be you exploring the world and reacting to what's happening around you, including what other players are doing. Sitting at static camps and blocking out the possibility of competition is not interesting gameplay.

The PNP was a reaction to $$$. It was the easiest way for them to "fix" the game for the sheep. The company was looking at the dangling carrot of selling the most copies of the game and getting the most subscriptions. They didn't instead focus on why "kill stealing" was such a turn off for some players - the static content, overcrowded servers, imbalance of mechanics, and the overly time-consuming nature of the game (ridiculously slow regen rates being a sizable culprit here).

You have a warped, grandiose and twistedly fantasized view of what early Everquest before the PNP was actually like.

This is you projecting. I was there, I know what happened. There's plenty of other player testimonies too, not mention the developer's themselves. People had the choice to compete for whatever content they wanted. Some people, the majority of people in fact, chose not to. That's their decision. They felt more comfortable not having to take risks or impose themselves or face the possibility of "losing". However, that layer of gameplay being present is part of what made the world more immersive and dynamic. Even if it only happened once a week or something, it was still the mark of a living world, where who knows what would happen next.

[Jimjam]

Is this thread trying to provide some kind of meta paladin vs sk role play experience?

[Ennewi]

No PNP sounds like it would allow for a more open world with stronger friendships and more meaningful consequences, but then a handful of depraved assholes would inevitably run entire servers into the ground for their own amusement or sense of achievement. In turn, valuable community members would leave because their idea of fun isn't a constant Lord of the Flies scenario of fuck or get fucked. Community members who were once paying customers. The subscription model cannot sustain that. But maybe devs of MMORPGs should consider having an anything goes PvP server for that very reason, to provide a similar outlet for people the way RnF does.

[pink grapefruit]

The more I learn what classic EQ was really like, the more it sounds like green will be a Sullon Zek type of server. We know the devs have had plans for a teams pvp server for years now, and most players are obviously hoping that this will be what we get from green. Changing the play nice policy a year into the server wouldn't really make much sense, but it's increasingly apparent that a "no rules" scenario would make for a better EQ experience for both the players and the staff. That scenario definitely qualifies as a "new experience", too.

At this point it seems like we should really be more curious about how the devs will implement the teams system than about hybrid xp penalties or a changing pnp. The playerbase would feel betrayed if they didn't get the teams server several years in the making, and unless they want to double their csr staff allowing things like training and KSing just makes sense. Is it possible to limit an ip address to only one team, to prevent people from creating characters on the other teams? Will we be getting the classic SZ deity-based teams, complete with Veeshan worshipping monks in Freeport? Will the teams even be hardcoded to prevent grouping, or will they be softcoded like on classic VZ and TZ servers? These questions are much more interesting, and at this stage are more pertinent.

[Dolalin]

But maybe devs of MMORPGs should consider having an anything goes PvP server for that very reason, to provide a similar outlet for people the way RnF does.

FFA pvp isn't fun for the griefers without people to grief. This is why they're always trying to force people into pvp somehow.

This behaviour manifests in a lot of different contexts. Smokers are only 10-15% of the public but they used to own the bar scene, every single bar allowed smoking. Why? Because bars catered to the lowest common denominator: they knew the non-smokers would put up with smoking since it was the only game in town, you just couldn't go out otherwise. When the smoking bans came in, the minority could no longer abuse the majority to satisfy their addiction and they're still bitter about it.

Toxic people abuse the rules to force their behaviour and needs on the majority wherever they can, whether they're smokers or PvPers. It's the same mindset.

Normal players would never choose a pvp server willingly. The griefers would be left to themselves, and that's no fun.

[Zuranthium]

a handful of depraved assholes would inevitably run entire servers into the ground for their own amusement or sense of achievement.

That's the current P99 policy, where these players are able to own the top item farm camps by doing nothing but sitting there, and block everyone else out.

With competition via damage in place, it's not possible for a couple individuals to "run a server into the ground." Guilds will assemble the correct DPS characters and go in for items when they really want it, and the competition will always be fluid, because you're not going to get 20 casters from the same guild to constantly sit at one camp and prevent any possible encroachment. Or if that does happen, it's way better than the alternative of 1 person sitting there doing it. 20 people crowding around a single camp means they aren't somewhere else in the game world, which opens up more good spots for others.

FFA pvp isn't fun for the griefers without people to grief. This is why they're always trying to force people into pvp somehow.

You have a misconception about PvP being "griefers". PvP is something that requires more skill. That's why e-sports are PvP, not PvE. More intelligence and ability is needed. PvP'ers wanting to have a sufficient community for their game is not a statement of desiring sitting ducks to jump on. It's a desire to have a high level of competition and variety, creating the deepest gameplay possible.

[Ennewi]

That's the current P99 policy, where these players are able to own the top item farm camps by doing nothing but sitting there, and block everyone else out.

With competition via damage in place, it's not possible for a couple individuals to "run a server into the ground." Guilds will assemble the correct DPS characters and go in for items when they really want it, and the competition will always be fluid, because you're not going to get 20 casters from the same guild to constantly sit at one camp and prevent any possible encroachment. Or if that does happen, it's way better than the alternative of 1 person sitting there doing it. 20 people crowding around a single camp means they aren't somewhere else in the game world, which opens up more good spots for others.

That makes sense in a raid setting, but it already happens twice per month on here thanks to earthquakes. One guild prioritizes a target and others react by going elsewhere, picking off what they have the numbers for. Before earthquakes and racelines, it was 100+ people crowding around a single camp. Venril Sathir. There's probably still a screenshot of it on these forums somewhere. With no rule against kill stealing, the same numbers would have poopsocked then imo, just with more Wizards, Rogues, and Enchanters.

In a virtual world where potentially every success boils down to outdpsing the competition, guilds would not actively recruit nonessential classes and players who opted out of raiding would be less inclined to play those classes as well, for fear of losing a named to any old passerby.

Even as populated as the server is, few bother grouping in certain zones due to a lack of drops and abundance of harder mobs; instead they switch to an alt and level up in a different but equally popular zone. Idk if removing the PNP would change those habits all that much. Look at the clickfest scout used to be. Even when some were suspected of cheating, players still showed up in droves to try and outclick them. The current setup there isn't exactly fun, but players don't feel they have to resort to illegitimate tactics in order to have a chance.

Spam clicking or zerging, it's all more or less the same imo. If DPS was the deciding factor, how many players would group with new, untwinked players? The risk would be too great to have a Monk who only had a Peacebringer and FBSS. Players would have to auction themselves when LFG by linking their gear. And how many groups would be primarily comprised of Necromancers and Enchanters with charmed pets? The meta would change drastically. Minmax would take over. Not saying there wouldn't be an element of fun and risk in doing so, but again it would make certain classes irrelevant. Some of the most fun that can be had comes from those unconventional groups that are lacking in one or more areas, even DPS.

Getting put on the AC list in OOT or waiting LFG at the KC zoneline might chip away at our sense of adventure and "anything can happen" in the game, but the alternative would require a certain amount of self-regulating on the part of the playerbase, something we as a species aren't entirely capable of irl, much less in virtual reality.

[Titanas]

This got really off topic.

Removing EXP penalty for hybrids:
We all know its not classic.
We all know hybrids are bad and don't deserve the penalty.
We all know that some people will minmax and not invite Troll SKs
We all know that some people will roll these classes any ways.

How Class Exp Penalty should be:
Warrior / Rogue +10%
Monk / Druid / Shaman / Cleric / Paladin / Shadowknight / Ranger 0%
Wizard / Magician / Enchanter / Necromancer / Bard -10%

I'm on the fence for Bards because swarm kiting bards deserve a penalty. While grouping bards don't.

[Troxx]

No class deserves an xp penalty. It’s ultimately why the penalty was removed. With few exceptions the classes with the penalty ended up less powerful than the classes who didn’t have one for the first few years of the game.

It is, however, classic. If the goal is to strictly recreated classic it should be in. At the same time, special coding like aoe limits to 25 clearly help the server but are not classic. Following the “classic” argument, such non-classic changes should be removed until green reaches the custom content era of the velious timeline.

PS: summon pet power on p99 is still lower than it should be. Most notably the 59 necro pet EoT was a beast on live.

[jolanar]

No class deserves an xp penalty.

Well that depends on what the intent of a class xp penalty is. Not sure if the original devs ever went on record as to why it was there. My hunch is it was just there because they were copying heavily from DnD and not really any other reason. I think a class penalty that penalizes strong solo classes makes sense personally.


PS: summon pet power on p99 is still lower than it should be. Most notably the 59 necro pet EoT was a beast on live.

There are lots of very basic things from classic EQ that still aren't correct on blue. Not to mention the final Blue patch isn't even in yet. Frankly I don't think they are ready for a Green server. Much less a Green server without any kind of beta.

[aaezil]

What if i told you blue server is a beta server

[loramin]

The more I learn what classic EQ was really like, the more it sounds like green will be a Sullon Zek type of server.

What Zura wants is not what classic was like. It most certainly was not like Sullon Zek, but the thing is, whatever it may have been, it's impossible to recreate how classic truly was at this point: that ship has sailed.

Just like Zura's argument sailed before this thread even started ;)

[loramin]

P.S. Zura you still never answered this:


You think classic non-PnP + modern server = classic server. Literally everyone else thinks that adds up to a mess, not a classic server. And yet you keep pushing the idea anyway, despite the fact that you've had absolutely no success whatsoever: not one single person in any of these threads you've taken over has replied "yeah, I buy what Zuranthium is selling".

And to be clear, you do take over other people's threads, in a disrespectful way. Changing a thread's topic organically is normal here, but you've followed a deliberate pattern for the past week or so. You ignore the topic at hand but use it as an excuse to go off on your pet issue, then reply to every response made (probably with the simplistic belief that by getting the last word you "win" the argument) ... until everyone talking to you realizes that they're talking to a wall. At that point the thread dies because the people originally interested in it have long since left.

You either just don't realize you're doing that, and don't realize that all this effort you're putting in is having absolutely no benefit whatsoever ... or that you realize it, but don't care, because the real audience of all this effort is R&N. And if that's the case, it suggests that:

A) you think they're complete morons who couldn't come up with the idea, but your revelation will enlighten them, and/or:
B) they have thought of it, but you you know better than them how to run the world's most popular emulated EQ server ... despite the fact that they've overseen literally tens of thousands of hours of volunteer CS effort


So which is it? Are you tone deaf and unaware of how anyone perceives your posts? Or aware but thinking "it doesn't matter, as long as I can enlighten R&N, which I'm totally doing with this campaign"? (Or both?)

You said something about how R&N can't know everything event though they've run this server for 10 years and you've run it for 0 years, so it sounded like maybe you picked:

Or aware but thinking "it doesn't matter, as long as I can enlighten R&N, which I'm totally doing with this campaign"

(But also probably tone deaf because you said it was a fallacy that no one agrees with you when literally no one has posted that they agree with you in any of these threads. If I'm wrong, just quote the one that say "I buy what Zura is selling".)

[loramin]

And one last thing:

You either need better reading comprehension, or need to stop repeating the same wrong assumptions. If you actually read the content of the thread, then you'll see I was responding to other posters about the subject being discussed, and provided a very detailed discourse on the subject. The conversation naturally developed from there.

Forget about all the other threads; let's just look at this one. You started out topical ...

Pally's and SK's don't really tank any better than other melee classes in early EQ...

But then you pull your signature Zura move and redirected the conversation to something totally unrelated that no one but you wanted to talk about (emphasis added):


They do good DPS when giving their pet a fine steel dagger(s) and Harmtouch becomes relevant for racing to 51% damage on a specific contested NPC.

And the very first reply called you out on it (while at the same time playing into your game by redirecting the conversation where you wanted it):
KS'ing and training people are both against the rules so what relevance does that have? Or is there something i'm missing?

But no you're totally trying just trying to have a conversation with people about the topic at hand :rolleyes:. You're not interjecting your pet issue into other people's conversations so you can "prove how right you are" (ie. keep replying, ignoring most of what everyone says while getting one quip per quote in, until everyone gives up because you're not a human trying to engage in discussion you're a mindless reply robot).

And you're not tone-deaf and arguing with the world pointlessly, you're changing minds ... and we'll just ignore the fact that not one single mind has changed after making ... how many "change everyone's mind about this" posts have you made on this topic (in threads on unrelated topics)?

[Zuranthium]

In a virtual world where potentially every success boils down to outdpsing the competition, guilds would not actively recruit nonessential classes and players who opted out of raiding would be less inclined to play those classes as well, for fear of losing a named to any old passerby.

Guilds already don't recruit nonessential classes, and actually with that system in the game there are *more* "essential" classes, because you have the classes who excel for big raid targets and the classes who excel for the other content. Every top guild would still need Warriors for raid targets, regardless of them being shit for other content.

Even as populated as the server is, few bother grouping in certain zones due to a lack of drops and abundance of harder mobs; instead they switch to an alt and level up in a different but equally popular zone. Idk if removing the PNP would change those habits all that much.

There aren't going to be any relevant drops available to the general playerbase on Green99 if the non-Classic system is kept. A small handful of players will not sleep when the server is launched; they will level up as quickly as possible to get to a sufficient farming level, and then they will go lock down the big item drop spawns.

Less populated zones/areas would certainly get used more though, in the DPS system. People will naturally gravitate away from places where it gets too competitive if it means they can't sit at their little camp and get full exp off those NPCs. Also as I talked about, if it requires more people to contest top item camps, then it means less people are elsewhere in the game world.

And how many groups would be primarily comprised of Necromancers and Enchanters with charmed pets? The meta would change drastically. Minmax would take over. Not saying there wouldn't be an element of fun and risk in doing so, but again it would make certain classes irrelevant.

This is *already* what Green99 is going to be for non-Raid play. Pet classes are massively OP in 1999 era and those are the classes who are going to level the fastest and thus be able to claim the big item camps the fastest. With competition available, other people at least have a chance to get in the mix.

If DPS was the deciding factor, how many players would group with new, untwinked players? The risk would be too great to have a Monk who only had a Peacebringer and FBSS.

*only* a Peacebringer and FBSS?!? What the hell? That IS a twinked character, and you're talking about Kunark era now. The character you just described is more twinked than anything that's possible in pre-Kunark.

In any case though, new and untwinked characters would not face much greater challenge than now. Twinked/pet people will choose to group with them or not, the same as now, and DPS racing won't be relevant in remote exping areas. There's plenty of spots in the game for people to just level up, without having to worry about needing to compete for targets.

Getting put on the AC list in OOT or waiting LFG at the KC zoneline might chip away at our sense of adventure and "anything can happen" in the game, but the alternative would require a certain amount of self-regulating on the part of the playerbase

There's no such thing as "getting put on the AC list" with the P99 system. Whoever owns the camp can hand it off to anyone they want (aka someone in their farming guild, who will then hand it off to another person in their farming guild, etc).

Only with Classic-era Play Nice Policy, are lists actually an equitable thing. Also, some people are going to be waiting LFG no matter what the system is. There are going to be plenty of "regular" exp spots/camps even if a DPS-race system is in place, as not everyone wants to play the game like that; it doesn't even make sense to in terms of trying maximize your exp gain. DPS is simply a number, it eventually hits plateau somewhere. People are only able to kill what their damage output is capable of; if they overextend to try to bite off more than they can chew, they are only slowing themselves down.

---
(and now for the useless loramin shit)

What Zura wants is not what classic was like.

You are wrong and don't know what classic was like, and you refuse to listen to factual evidence. When are you going to stop flailing around with inane spam postings?

But then you pull your signature Zura move and redirected the conversation to something totally unrelated that no one but you wanted to talk about

The topic replied to was about the effectiveness of Hybrids in Classic and that's exactly what I talked about. You simply choose to be ignorant to the fact that damage racing happened, *at times*, in Classic. It was a real part of the gameplay and what a class could bring to the table.

literally no one has posted that they agree with you in any of these threads.

There goes your lack of reading comprehension and/or willful ignorance again. It's pathetic how you keep trying to erase history, even when it happened in the past 24 hours, right in front of your face. Moreover, whether people agree in the threads or not is irrelevant. Popularity does not equal correctness. Besides, there are multitudes of players from early EQ who don't post on these forums, nor at this very moment.

[Benanov]

Back at the long-abandoned point:

Yeah I can't see myself playing on green if it's a "warts and all" recreation of the 1999 era game. I played a Rogue then and...god. Rogues were awful at launch.

I fell in love with Hybrids at FV launch. No way in hell I'm going to put up with that XP penalty, and I'm not sure that anyone else will. After all, XP sharing isn't based on penalty - it's based on the current XP each party member has - so someone willing to put up with a TRL SHD's huge penalty at lower levels will be much less likely to do so at higher levels.

Blue already has twinked min-max characters bitching about how adding 2 more people to the group will make their XP bar not move and so they leave to solo - and that's with the race penalties being the only ones left.

[Troxx]

Summary:

-long thread
-hybrid penalties suck but will likely be in
-one dude wants PNP to be revoked so we can have dps fights to rationalize shitty player behavior

[radbeard]

I assume hybrid penalties will be in and that makes me sad :(

[aaezil]

Whether its a dps race or a camp line or a race you will always be beat by the most unshaven and unemployed among us. Tis just the way of things.

[Zuranthium]

Whether its a dps race or a camp line or a race you will always be beat by the most unshaven and unemployed among us. Tis just the way of things.

This isn't true though. DPS race inherently limits the ability of a single poopsocker. They need to bring in friends if they want to hold down high-priority camps, and if these people are crowding around content that doesn't normally require so much effort, then they are no longer somewhere else in the game world at that point in time. They aren't collectively able to hold down as many camps, and they get far less time to level up twinked alts.

It's true that people who play more and exclusively "power game" the content will generally always have an advantage, but they get the smallest advantage under the classic 1999 ruleset (given that pretty much the entire playerbase now understands the game, and isn't just getting lost in Faydark for days at a time).

What's also true is that the current p99 design goal will NEVER result in a fully satisfying game, regardless of whatever form of PnP it uses. p99 as it stands will never be more than a bottom-barrel drug or a niche museum. But at least it could try to be the most thoughtful version of itself.

one dude wants PNP to be revoked so we can have dps fights to rationalize shitty player behavior

You're trying to rationalize competition and the classic, immersive MMORPG experience as shitty player behavior. Anything that gets in the way of you sitting on your ass and not having to think or be challenged is "bad". Long live the philistines!

The PNP (at least part of it anyway) should be revoked specifically because that's what 1999 EQ was; it's how the game was designed, and p99 is striving to recreate every detail of the game it feasibly can. The anti-truth brigade can try to deny it all you want, but the facts will never change.

If a PNP does exist, it should be the actual classic PNP. Not the garbage unclassic p99 PNP that warps the game and caters to poopsockers. The way people keep trying to ignore this point is very sad.

[aaezil]

Why are you assuming theres just a single person? If rules were dps the nerds would bring more dps than you.

[Zuranthium]

Why are you assuming theres just a single person? If rules were dps the nerds would bring more dps than you.

...you literally just failed to comprehend anything I wrote.

If they bring in more players to contest, then those players are not somewhere else in the game world. If it only normally takes 1 or 2 people to claim a camp, but they instead need 5 or 6 to out-DPS the typical competition, then those extra 4-5 people are not out farming somewhere else or leveling up an alt. 5-6 min/max DPS characters won't win either if a guild decides to "mini-raid" the camp and push them out.

Like I talked about before, competition would be fluid, as there will always be the option to bring in more numbers to initially fight over a camp, but if people are dedicating that many characters to a single camp in the game, then they are inherently losing time/presence elsewhere. So the numbers each "faction" has at a camp will continually change, and when their numbers dwindle after tiring of fighting or thinking they are safe, then even a casual group would have the opportunity to move in and win the camp for a period of time.

[aaezil]

Yeah casuals still lose in that situation so negative comprehension is still on your side of the table mate

[aaezil]

For instance newer players without enough friends yet to hold even lower lvl camps (remember this is a 10 year old server) or for higher lvl camps everyone thats not in a guild gettng the best dps weps/most amount of warmbodies to fill camps will almost always be on the losing side of dps war.

Not to mention lvl 60s farming noob zones because they “outdps” and ruin everyone of appropriate levels fun.

[Jimjam]

Well you are certainly enthusiastic in the face of adversity.

As such I award you one month of no PNP on green. Obviously CSR is still free to make their own decisions free of PNP guidance as live.

In other news I award Loramin 1 month of rotations on blue.

[Zuranthium]

Yeah casuals still lose in that situation so negative comprehension is still on your side of the table mate

Casuals do not lose in that situation, again you fail to comprehend. A casual group of lets say 1 "tank", 2 melee dps, 2 caster dps, and 1 healer can absolutely push 1 or 2 item farmers from a camp. Remember that healers actually have decent "DPS" in these situations, because they get damage spells.

I never said casuals would win an equal amount of the time in every situation, I said they would have opportunities to compete. Having a chance is better than having none.

For instance newer players without enough friends yet to hold even lower lvl camps

People don't need to "hold" lower level camps. There's plenty of those to go around, if people get off their asses and don't just try to sit in Oasis or Unrest their whole lives. Even in those places, it's not as if it's going to be 100% min/max DPS groups holding everything down 24/7.

Not to mention lvl 60s farming noob zones because they “outdps” and ruin everyone of appropriate levels fun.

Level 60 is not 1999 era, but whatever number this high level this person is, why are they trying to "farm" noob zones (yes I am aware of gnoll fangs and CB belts for alts)? In any case, that behavior is not allowed, this is something that falls under harassment or total zone disruption.

[Ghilran]

Did you guys know that PNP is not enforced on DBG's official TLP servers? It was very noticeable up until the opening of the Phini server which introduced instances for old world content.

Basically it meant that the raid scene reverted to a big perpetual DPS race, and you found yourself waiting for hours on end with several other guild for a raid target to spawn, trying to KS each other.

I've personally waited in Trak lair for hours with about 200 other characters form a variety of guilds. You can find videos on the tube of VS dying 1/10th of a sec after he spawns.

Interestingly enough, the dungeons/ grouping scene was largely unaffected. People seemed to... play nice with each others.

[Evia]

Even if you're right about claasic 99 eq having no pnp Zura, 95% of the eq player base doesnt remember it that way. I feel like Rogean and Co want to recreate that classic 'feeling' more than be strictly classic (look at all the unclassic changes they made) and the majority of the EQ/p99 player base remembers camp rules and not dps races. P99 already deals with enough toxicity from players....removing pnp policy in favor for dps racing is like throwing gasoline on a dumpster fire.

[Ennewi]

Less populated zones/areas would certainly get used more though, in the DPS system. People will naturally gravitate away from places where it gets too competitive if it means they can't sit at their little camp and get full exp off those NPCs. Also as I talked about, if it requires more people to contest top item camps, then it means less people are elsewhere in the game world.

Savvy players would no longer be able to solo Verina Tomb with a late audience standing by, prevented from interfering. That would be add an interesting dynamic to some of those spawns. But then, a lot of sniping would occur elsewhere. Finished the ring war, with only Narandi left to kill? Did the final turn-in for SK epic fight? Inc that other, larger guild and all of its members are full mana. This would even apply to iksar broodlings, with the opposing guilds spamming AE spells while Fear golems are low health.

This is *already* what Green99 is going to be for non-Raid play. Pet classes are massively OP in 1999 era and those are the classes who are going to level the fastest and thus be able to claim the big item camps the fastest. With competition available, other people at least have a chance to get in the mix.

I wouldn't even consider playing one of the fringe classes if it came down to DPS instead of claiming and holding a camp, and that's pretty much all I play. With PNP at least, if one of the solo classes wipes, I can step in and attempt to take over where they left off. If/when they come back, they're only chance is to engage me in conversation and offer to duo.

*only* a Peacebringer and FBSS?!? What the hell? That IS a twinked character, and you're talking about Kunark era now. The character you just described is more twinked than anything that's possible in pre-Kunark.

That's an inevitabity though. Classic and trilogy may be two different beasts, but green does not make those distinctions permanent. The progress between each expansion will be fast compared to what p99ers are accustomed to. The Kunark era on here nearly felt like an era, a lot more than back in classic.

But the point has to do with the weapons and spells available, how certain classes would dominate more than they already do. If, for instance, a Ranger was awarded Oakwynd from a GM event, they would garunteed win every DPS race 1v1, not only that but the same could be said for their group and probably their guild. An extreme example, but still.

There's no such thing as "getting put on the AC list" with the P99 system. Whoever owns the camp can hand it off to anyone they want (aka someone in their farming guild, who will then hand it off to another person in their farming guild, etc).

Plenty have maintained a list and it works well enough by announcing it in ooc, which goes back to the point of a self-regulating playerbase and having other, more concrete agreements in place such as scout roll and sky rotations. Without even a rough outline of the PNP, players could port up to buy keys from keymaster, then leapfrog sky raids to snipe efreetis or to kill keeper of souls and sell looting rights. Guilds were creative enough in the past to spam down targets with Ivandyr's Hoops, they'd figure out ways to ruin hours of a guild's progress.

Having said all of this, there are aspects of the PNP that are similar to social niceties and political (over)correctness which can make interactions feel more predictable than ones with quest NPCs.

[stewe]

PnP isnt going anywhere, get over it or move on simple as that.

[Fammaden]

Even if you're right about claasic 99 eq having no pnp Zura, 95% of the eq player base doesnt remember it that way. I feel like Rogean and Co want to recreate that classic 'feeling' more than be strictly classic (look at all the unclassic changes they made) and the majority of the EQ/p99 player base remembers camp rules and not dps races.

End argument. This is all that really needs to be said in response to this dude's impassioned pleas for DPS racing.

[Jimjam]

Someone mentioned how iksar broodling could be abused in dps race; no different to now.

One would think with fte whoever aggroed broodling first got rights to kill. Instead it has a custom rule that it goes to whoever 'triggered' it. Right?

No reason such custom rules wouldn't apply in a pre-PNP server. The absence of the codified PNP didn't mean all GMs let their servers be Wild West. You were subject to whatever adhoc enforcement they wanted to apply.

Indeed, there have been complaints in the past that p1999 doesn't follow the classic PNP system. Essentially blue has always been in a pre-PNP state where enforcement is down to a GM's judgment and whim instead of a top down authority.

As such, I argue green will have the pre-PNP system and on all likelihood will always be without the Verrant official PNP.

[loramin]

There goes your lack of reading comprehension and/or willful ignorance again. It's pathetic how you keep trying to erase history, even when it happened in the past 24 hours, right in front of your face.

Man, if this was RnF I'd say something about your mind being up inside one of your own body's cavities, only in a much less nice way. But since we're not ...

Just quote one then ... just one.

It's super easy to prove me wrong if you're actually correct, so just do it and quote one person saying "I buy what Zura has been selling" (and what he disrupted several other threads in order to try and sell to me).

You've put a HUGE amount of effort into this fight. You've written a massive number of "wall of text" posts, in multiple threads that people started about completely different topics. Surely after all that effort you can point to just one single person, one single bit of proof that all that effort wasn't a giant waste of your's and everyone else's time ... right?

[loramin]

In other news I award Loramin 1 month of rotations on blue.

Woot, I'm going to solo the heck out of ToV! ;)

[Ennewi]

Someone mentioned how iksar broodling could be abused in dps race; no different to now.

One would think with fte whoever aggroed broodling first got rights to kill. Instead it has a custom rule that it goes to whoever 'triggered' it. Right?

No reason such custom rules wouldn't apply in a pre-PNP server. The absence of the codified PNP didn't mean all GMs let their servers be Wild West. You were subject to whatever adhoc enforcement they wanted to apply.

Well there's evidence floating around that the spawn for tear drop worked differently in the early days of classic (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60825).

But the custom rule or unwritten law, so to speak, seems to apply elsewhere as well without any attempts from outside parties to ruleslawyer. The skeletal version of Sir Lucan. Thought destroyer. Xenovorash. Any and all the giants spawned during the ring war. So basically, no touchy unless directly involved with those who began the process/killed its "placeholder" for lack of a better term. The rules have been customized over time out of necessity and blue server has still maintained its classic feel; no reason why green server wouldn't. Similar to how earthquakes aren't at all classic, but very easily would have been back in 1999 under the right conditions / if the devs had thought of it.

[loramin]

Similar to how earthquakes aren't at all classic, but very easily would have been back in 1999 under the right conditions / if the devs had thought of it.

You misunderstand: earthquakes are 100% classic!

What's not classic is them being a precise amount (0-2? 1-3?) every month (like they were for a little while here) or else totally forgotten about (like they were for 9 years), or partly forgotten about (how they have been recently).

But the reason you probably don't remember them on live is because they weren't called "earthquakes", they were called "server patches", and they came along with an annoying period of time where you couldn't play the game and you had to hang out in those idiotic Verant chat rooms. P99 not taking the server down prior to "earthquakes" is unclassic ... but you won't hear many complaints about it ;)

[Ennewi]

Aye, the visible shaking and flavor text is what I was referring to, how those interruptions back then could have been clevery worded/portrayed to tie in with the lore, instead of just warning players that the servers were coming down. But maybe they informed players differently on Firiona Vie.

[loramin]

Aye, the visible shaking and flavor text is what I was referring to, how those interruptions back then could have been clevery worded/portrayed to tie in with the lore, instead of just warning players that the servers were coming down. But maybe they informed players differently on Firiona Vie.

I didn't play on FV a ton, but I did have a toon there and I'm pretty sure they got the same "Server coming down for maintenance in 15 minutes, please camp somewhere safe" messages as everyone else. Visible "earthquakes" would definitely have been a lot more fun though :)

[Benanov]

I didn't play on FV a ton, but I did have a toon there and I'm pretty sure they got the same "Server coming down for maintenance in 15 minutes, please camp somewhere safe" messages as everyone else. Visible "earthquakes" would definitely have been a lot more fun though :)

Yeah, they did. FV got the same server down messages as any other server. The players just bitched about it in Elvish or Dark Elvish.

[Zuranthium]

Even if you're right about claasic 99 eq having no pnp Zura, 95% of the eq player base doesnt remember it that way.

It's not "if I am right". It is a FACT. Documented. History. The way you people keep trying to falsify history needs to stop.

You are completely wrong about "95% of the playerbase didn't remember it that way". It's people who didn't play during that era trying to be naysayers. Almost nobody posting here actually played actively in 1999.

It's super easy to prove me wrong if you're actually correct, so just do it and quote one person

You've already been proven wrong. You just ignore everything. Since you are incapable of reading and processing anything that shows you are wrong, but now make a claim that will you finally shut up if I directly quote something again, here you go:

I also remember always having a HT up to outburst the occasional intrepid person showing up to nail a named as it would pop.

[rustyfingers]

it's sunny outside !

[NegaStoat]

Almost nobody posting here actually played actively in 1999.


You know what? Okay, fine. I did play about a month after launch on Fennin Ro server, back when fine steel daggers were given to necro pets, magician pets couldn't hold weapons at all even though Absor stated they could and later looked like a tool for his quote when he obviously did zero testing, and this was also back when you could kill your character, leave a corpse, log out, delete your character, create a new character with the same name, and LOOT the corpse you previously left and gain the No Drop items on it. I played when Fish Rolls gave you 2 per combine for fast cash, and recall when town entry guards were buffed to be 100% magic resistant + made into lvl 50's because druids outside of Oggok were killing everything that moved and noob ogre players had nothing to kill their overpulls. Seen it, been there, and had my Kunark expansion show up in a plain brown bag at 1:00 pm pacific time on Launch Day with brand new iksar characters that were created all looked like naked default male human models due to Verant's screw up.

With that out of the way, YES. I do recall that some players on my initial encounters would attack mobs that I had already pulled or were already fighting and would attempt to burn them down so they could get loot. I distinctly recall this happening in Crushbone because goshdang, those belts were just SUCH a huge noob payoff magnet. And YES. If you were in Nektulos and you saw a skeleton holding a staff, every noob would attempt to do over 50% damage to score a cracked staff, regardless of who started the fight with the mob.

What I also recall is that this mindset went to the wayside with players around the time they were in their late teens or early 20's in character levels and were hunting in groups in places like Highpass, Unrest, or venturing into Guk or Mistmoore. Because people were playing more in groups, groups would call out camps and keep mobs killed, make friends, join guilds, etc, and players who were disrupting camps were called out by name or the guild tags of such players were called out and griefing would ensue. So what I am saying is, from my personal limited experience on Fennin Ro, is that the players that would attempt to KS a mob were largely only found either in the very low level bracket, or at the much higher level bracket with open world mobs like Hill Giants when druids were doing their solo thing. I suspect that part of the play nice policy having been put into place was probably because of raiding guilds being stupid but also the massive backlog of reports on Druids sniping things that Guides constantly had to put up with.

So yes, I remember a good portion of what you're talking about. But here's the thing. If it was classic for Everquest to launch without a play nice policy, and then later for the game to evolve into having one ... What on EARTH is the point of repeating that time span of the game evolving into having one going to do to improve the quality of the game, especially one that is offered free and has a server staff made up entirely of volunteers?

And I am STILL completely missing the point on why this absolutely developmentally challenged issue of the play nice policy is being tossed around in a thread dedicated to Hybrid experience point penalties. Get off my lawn and make your own thread dedicated to it!

[Jibartik]

Zur almost everyone here does this isnt some off topic hate speech thread section of the forums, its the section for players.

[loramin]

Wow; we already knew reading comprehension wasn't your strong suite, but damn!

I also remember always having a HT up to outburst the occasional intrepid person showing up to nail a named as it would pop.

Is not:

quote one person saying "I buy what Zura has been selling"

Everyone here agree with you that you could KS mobs by out-DPSing in the early days of live! There was never any real question whatsoever about that.

Even if there was a PnP back then (and I agree, there wasn't), GMs didn't follow the PnP or any other rule set consistently. Even if they did, most people didn't petition GMs over such things. So you are 100% correct that as a result of all those factors, people did KS each other over mobs in the early days, and hell they did it in the later days too!

But NO ONE, not one single person, in any way agrees that doing that here would be a good thing. Not one. You've written wall after all of text, insulted and/or annoyed a decent fraction of this forum, but not a single person has indicated even the slightest interest in your ideas.

[Zuranthium]

Savvy players would no longer be able to solo Verina Tomb with a late audience standing by, prevented from interfering. That would be add an interesting dynamic to some of those spawns. But then, a lot of sniping would occur elsewhere. Finished the ring war, with only Narandi left to kill? Did the final turn-in for SK epic fight? Inc that other, larger guild and all of its members are full mana.

Triggered mobs are owned by the player who triggered them. That's not a contestable spawn, unless the person who triggered it wipes.

I wouldn't even consider playing one of the fringe classes if it came down to DPS instead of claiming and holding a camp, and that's pretty much all I play. With PNP at least, if one of the solo classes wipes, I can step in and attempt to take over where they left off. If/when they come back, they're only chance is to engage me in conversation and offer to duo.

This doesn't make sense. Experienced farmers in this age of the game rarely ever wipe. It's actually pretty much impossible for most item camps pre-Kunark. They would have to go linkdead. You're virtually never going to get a camp on Green99 this way, if the un-classic PNP is kept.

If classic PNP is in the game, then you have the ability to go to the camp and take turns. If pre-PNP is in the game, then you have the ability to get a group and fight for a camp.

Classic and trilogy may be two different beasts, but green does not make those distinctions permanent.

I'm not sure what your meaning is here. The pre-PNP era of Everquest was pre-Kunark. Having a Monk twinked with a Peacebringer (or even more, yeesh!) never happened in 1999. You couldn't twink anywhere close to that level, and the best items to twink with were being used by main characters (except for extremely rare exceptions, like a few people moving lower level characters to Plane of Fear before there was a level limit, and then getting gear on that character at a later date and moving them back to Norrath).

I don't think that's an issue anyway, if the pre-PNP ruleset were to be in place for the entirety of Green's timeline (which would be justified by the level of competence the playerbase has now, as compared to all those years ago). No matter what the system, twinked characters are always just going to go burn through exp content and move on, and will choose to not group with non-twinked people if they don't want to. There's plenty of uncontested content for non-twinked people to level on. I personally would limit twinking if I could, but that wouldn't be "classic", so unfortunately won't happen here.

Plenty have maintained a list and it works well enough by announcing it in ooc, which goes back to the point of a self-regulating playerbase and having other, more concrete agreements in place such as scout roll and sky rotations.

The playerbase can always decide what it wants to do in a sandbox format. DPS option being available doesn't mean everyone will do it in every situation. Lists don't have any actual power in the current P99 system though. There have been plenty of posts on this forum about people who waited in line forever and the camp was given to someone not on the list. If non-classic rules are in place, then it's nearly always going to be like that on Green99 pre-Velious, and especially pre-Kunark, when there is not as much item camp content to go around.

People need to stop playing this game thinking that the whole point is item farming. That's not the point. You're just being mice in a cage, going round and round mindlessly on the wheel in a box, if that is what you're doing with the game. Stop being so scared about chaotic things happening and not being able to just sit around like a vegetable in a line for something. The point of the game IS the unexpected and dynamic experiences; you're supposed to be existing in a volatile fantasy world.

---

not one single person, in any way agrees that doing that here would be a good thing. Not one.

LOL, you've again twisted the subject. And yes there are people who agree with it, but I'm not going to go back and quote again just because you can't read. Further, it is IRRELEVANT if people agree or not. Classic. Is. Classic. That is the game. Most of you are arguing because you have no conception of what is was like or could be like. You are taking a fear-based stance only, without realizing how the actual classic gameplay (*gasp*) can be better for the game.

GMs didn't follow the PnP or any other rule set consistently. Even if they did, most people didn't petition GMs over such things.

This is totally false. GM's absolutely followed the PnP once it was implemented, and before the PnP, fighting over mobs was absolutely allowed. Some people did petition and they were quickly told there's no rule against it. Like I talked about before, this was discussed on the OFFICIAL EQ MESSAGE BOARDS, and all over other places on the internet. It was formally acknowledged and part of the game, by the game designers and CSR. Players knew about it, and new players were quickly made aware by talking with other players, when those situations arose.

So yes, I remember a good portion of what you're talking about. But here's the thing. If it was classic for Everquest to launch without a play nice policy, and then later for the game to evolve into having one ... What on EARTH is the point of repeating that time span of the game evolving into having one going to do to improve the quality of the game, especially one that is offered free and has a server staff made up entirely of volunteers?

Thank you for your recollections about the game back then, further proof for people around here that yes it indeed the game existed as such.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your last part though. It's already been discussed why the pre-PnP era of Everquest was the best era and policy, and why the classic PnP is better than the unclassic one which exists on p99 right now. The point of "repeating it" is because that's exactly p99's stated goal.

Also, I'm not sure why people are getting riled about the discussion of the thread. Conversation changes happen in discussions. It's not like there's anything more to talk about with Hybrid EXP penalties. A forum moderator can separate all of the other discussion into a new thread if they want to, but so far they haven't. It's not *my* job to make a new thread.

[Jimjam]

This really deserves its own thread.

[Buellen]

Been saying that for a while but Zuranthium still insists hijacking threads <shrugs> guess he views its as attention to his ideology/ manifesto.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

me no inteResT in oL WilD weSt KaraNa daYs ZuRanTiNGum!!!

[Canelek]

Wow; we already knew reading comprehension wasn't your strong suite, but damn!



Is not:



Everyone here agree with you that you could KS mobs by out-DPSing in the early days of live! There was never any real question whatsoever about that.

Even if there was a PnP back then (and I agree, there wasn't), GMs didn't follow the PnP or any other rule set consistently. Even if they did, most people didn't petition GMs over such things. So you are 100% correct that as a result of all those factors, people did KS each other over mobs in the early days, and hell they did it in the later days too!

But NO ONE, not one single person, in any way agrees that doing that here would be a good thing. Not one. You've written wall after all of text, insulted and/or annoyed a decent fraction of this forum, but not a single person has indicated even the slightest interest in your ideas.

Correct. I had to look back a few pages to see what led to being quoted.

I in no way agree with the contrarian dude. DPS-racing is fucking stupid. Being prepared for a Stormfeather gank after 18+ hours is not. People are assholes.

[Zuranthium]

You're calling something stupid because it gets in the way of your brainless pixel farming. The irony. The transparency.

Nobody NEEDS that loot. It's a fucking fabricated superficiality. Nor does anyone deserve to get it simply because they sat on their ass. The point of the game is not supposed to be grinding linearly from one boring camp to the next. That's what destroyed the MMORPG genre. What happiness in life is there in being a top geared toon, when it leads to nothing? What are you going to DO with the gear? Without PvP, or some kind of other purpose, gear is meaningless. And in a good game, you would never be asked to pointlessly grind for gear in the first place.

The real excitement, and thus purpose of playing the game, is supposed to be in what you had to do to obtain the prize (gear). In the memorable story and unexpected twists that came from the journey. In the way you as a player needed to think and adapt, to overcome the obstacle. Needing to compete for the gear makes it memorable. Granted, DPS race is not nearly as exciting as full PvP (when it's decently balanced*), but it's something. It means you never know exactly what you're going to be facing, and you need to plan how to maximize your time and abilities and opportunities. It might mean abandoning the camp if you don't think you have a good chance, and figuring out where else you can succeed in the game world, at that point in time.

me no inteResT in oL WilD weSt KaraNa daYs ZuRanTiNGum!!!

Karana shits on Innoruuk. By the time the winds of the wilds have finished blowing you to the ground, you will be begging for the sweet release of the storm, to abandon the ways of hate and let the rain fall freely across your face.

[Seungkyu]

On Topic: I'm still debating whether to start a troll or an ogre Shadowknight. Deep down I want the sexy troll, but that maximum experience penalty makes me hesitate.

Off Topic: I believe the overwhelming majority (every other person on this thread so far) want a PnP ruleset regardless of how classic it is.

Zuranthium, your thinking by winning this argument it's going to take you back to the days of the old west when MMO was young wild and free. The truth is you can't go back, and the only real freedom you can have is offered in Jesus Chris our Lord and Savior.

Edit:Jesus is the answer.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

me setTle 4 TunArE

[Ghilran]

Correct. I had to look back a few pages to see what led to being quoted.

I in no way agree with the contrarian dude. DPS-racing is fucking stupid. Being prepared for a Stormfeather gank after 18+ hours is not. People are assholes.

It is... yet he does have a point, and as an unpopular opinion it's worth repeating.

We all see the PNP as a good thing to balance the shortcomings of EQ yet they were an integral part of the game. The PNP is the very begining of a slipery slope that brought us instanced content and the death of the MMO genre as we like it. I think the best that should be hoped for is a player-enforced PnP but the community has a bad track record implementing that.

For the record a lot of us played on servers where PnP did not exist (the official TLPs) and we survived to tell the tale. Sure it was a lot more toxic than what we remember from classic but it's an experience some people want. And it's the true unadultered experience.

[Evia]

It is... yet he does have a point, and as an unpopular opinion it's worth repeating.

We all see the PNP as a good thing to balance the shortcomings of EQ yet they were an integral part of the game. The PNP is the very begining of a slipery slope that brought us instanced content and the death of the MMO genre as we like it. I think the best that should be hoped for is a player-enforced PnP but the community has a bad track record implementing that.

For the record a lot of us played on servers where PnP did not exist (the official TLPs) and we survived to tell the tale. Sure it was a lot more toxic than what we remember from classic but it's an experience some people want. And it's the true unadultered experience.

Hi Zura

[Jibartik]

You're calling something stupid because it gets in the way of your brainless pixel farming.

You're calling something brainless because it gets in the way of your stupid greifing.

[Zuranthium]

Competition is not griefing. You shouldn't use comparisons you don't understand.

[loramin]

LOL, you've again twisted the subject.

https://i.imgur.com/A1cU4iI.jpg

[Jibartik]

Competition is not griefing. You shouldn't use comparisons you don't understand.

Me forcing you to sit and wait 19 hours or fail because you lack discipline and I do not, is competition. Loser.

[honeybee12874]

Me forcing you to sit and wait 19 hours or fail because you lack discipline and I do not, is competition. Loser.

Okay, this is completely off topic, but for some reason this reminded me of those endurance challenges they used to do on Big Brother. God, I hope I'm not the only person who used to watch Big Brother...

https://www.cbs.com/shows/big_brother/photos/1007649/these-grueling-big-brother-endurance-competitions-were-no-joke/12/

I like the last one on the list. Literally just how long can you stand here pressing a button. Now I think we all can relate to that one.

[Canelek]

I would consider it more annoying than competitive. Everquest athletes here mostly agree.

[Jibartik]

Okay, this is completely off topic, but for some reason this reminded me of those endurance challenges they used to do on Big Brother. God, I hope I'm not the only person who used to watch Big Brother...

https://www.cbs.com/shows/big_brother/photos/1007649/these-grueling-big-brother-endurance-competitions-were-no-joke/12/

I like the last one on the list. Literally just how long can you stand here pressing a button. Now I think we all can relate to that one.

we should have a poopsock competition every year on p99 :D

[Zuranthium]

Me forcing you to sit and wait 19 hours or fail because you lack discipline and I do not, is competition. Loser.

That's not competition, nor discipline. It's called busy work. Anybody can sit in a lobby for 19 hours if they were forced to. It requires no skill whatsoever. It's also unhealthy. There's a reason why no such activity exists as a sport or professional game.

That same wait could exist with DPS racing or full PvP anyway. You are strictly advocating for the least interactive and most braindead option.

That scenario doesn't even exist in many p99 situations with the unclassic PnP, because waiting somewhere for a camp is useless. Whoever is there already just hands it off to someone else in their farming guild. You could sit somewhere for an entire month with the current rules and not get the camp. Have fun with that.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

sorry u didn't get raid

[Jibartik]

The result of being greifed off a server because you lost is posting on the forums like Zur has been for the last few weeks lol

Guy got rolled hard on p99

Sorry I passed the camp off to my friend even though I told you that you were next on the list 16 hours ago but we are winning. Loser.

[Zuranthium]

Everything you're writing is opposite land. It's like somebody who loses once in chess and then never tries again, saying "lol that game sucks, solitaire is better" whenever the subject is brought up. You can't just wave off critical game/design theory with such insipid logic. People who want to do something more interesting with their life than play solitaire non-stop are not "lol got rolled". Discussing better games than solitaire is more productive than playing solitaire.

I feel very badly that you think playing a watered-down version of an outdated game is the pinnacle of gaming, or a better usage of time in life than countless other activities.

[Jibartik]

Well, now that we all agree that you lost its time to move on! :o

[Ennewi]

Savvy players would no longer be able to solo Verina Tomb with a late audience standing by, prevented from interfering. That would be add an interesting dynamic to some of those spawns. But then, a lot of sniping would occur elsewhere. Finished the ring war, with only Narandi left to kill? Did the final turn-in for SK epic fight? Inc that other, larger guild and all of its members are full mana. This would even apply to iksar broodlings, with the opposing guilds spamming AE spells while Fear golems are low health.

Correction.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics

Mobs do not immediately aggro players within 3 seconds of spawning, and they are immune to any non-targetted spells (PB AEs or targeted AEs they aren't the target of) in that time.