Green should disallow GINA

[Izmael]

It's like the unclassicest thing ever, with the buff timers and voice announcing spawns.

Like... not sure how. Maybe scanning running processes every minute and seeing if it looks like GINA? Maybe dsetup.dll could add such a watchdog.

Some clever guys could patch their gina exe so it doesn't hash the same but I'm sure the smart folks behind dsetup could find a workaround.

Just my 2 cents

[Tecmos Deception]

I ran log analyzers back in the day. Somewhat less functional in general but same general concepts iirc. Not significantly different than setting a clock for spawns, though yeah it's more than a bit unclassic when it comes to buff timers.

[Ashenden]

Screw it, remove logs. Everybody run OBS if you think someone's gonna do some illegal shiz near you.

[El-Hefe]

That'd be great.

[branamil]

Remove gina, ban resolutions above 640x480. Limit bandwidth to 24.4 kbps. No more than 2 mouse buttons allowed. Only 8 hotkeys allowed. Welcome to flavor country.

[Baler]

log parsers are classic
voice communication is classic

Im sorry you didnt know OP

[Chortles Snort|eS]

PlS DisAble World of Norrath moD

[drackgon]

What is GINA?

[Xallis]

What is GINA?

A program that reads your log file and can make timers/alerts based on it and overlay them ontop of your game. People use it for buff timers/spawn timers/fizzle alerts/invis dropping alerts/etc.

[Baler]

What is GINA?

https://eq.gimasoft.com/gina/Default.aspx

https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/febd8d5967dc7870eb8c154547bcb183793536e189a3416793 ff69a2d5c4ad76/detection

Always verify your files. I know there is a fake gina site that's a virus.
MD5: fab801a3deb66e1d1b82c2f1059b991c

[Izmael]

log parsers are classic
voice communication is classic

Im sorry you didnt know OP

I'm not saying log parsers or voice communication should be disabled. I'm saying GINA should be disabled.

Reading basic english is hard.

[Donkey Hotay]

I wonder if GINA had a normie interface, would the demands for its banning from sub-90 IQ types drop dramatically?

[drackgon]

Oh wow, thats interesting. Why should it matter then to block it.. If you don't want it don't use it.

[Baler]

If you don't want it don't use it.
This

I'm not saying log parsers or voice communication should be disabled. I'm saying GINA should be disabled.
Reading basic english is hard.

Reading basic dates is hard.
did we make any progress with childish comments? nope.

Doesn't change the fact that people were running log parsers as early as the log file was a thing. Nerds were crafty even back in the day. I have to imagine the early log parsers were build from database parsers.

So it's reworked and upgraded. By your logic we should be running 56k internet on single core PCs. it just wont happen. Also if P99 had a way to detect Gina it would open a huge security concern in the community.

[drackgon]

I would have to agree with Baler here. Green is here to be fun.. were not reliving 1999. With 56k(AoL Cds) and crappy Windows 95 computers. Be happy with what you can manage. Don't use this as I won't either bc meh I can't play 15 hours a day where this would help me. But I won;t be mad at the people who use it. What brings them fun should be the Key element that will keep people playing. Aka more people = generally more people to have Fun with.

[Borak]

Remove gina, ban resolutions above 640x480. Limit bandwidth to 24.4 kbps. No more than 2 mouse buttons allowed. Only 8 hotkeys allowed. Welcome to flavor country.

Yo, I had 128k ISDN back in 1997, it was awesome for Quake and Quake 2 years before EQ came out. I don't want to hear about the plebes who had to suffer with 28k.

[Izmael]

Buff timers have been removed for a reason - to make things more classic-compatible. GINA brings buff timers back, and then some. I fail to see the need to argue here.

Now, of course, disabling logs altogether would be a very poor solution to the problem. Logs are good, logs are classic, and as someone mentionned, 20 years from now when people will attempt to make a p99 emulator, today's logs will be invaluable.

But GINA takes away a significant part of what makes EQ - EQ: timing spawns, buffs and closely watching for messages such as "you feel like you're about to appear". That's not coo !

[Sonark]

Always found GINA to be a weird crutch.

Never used it on Live, even when raiding, because if you're observant, you don't need it.

Though I can see the utility here, with the lack of buff timers. That's such a crap thing.

[Baler]

Buff timers have been removed for a reason - to make things more classic-compatible.

This is not a quest you can win

https://i.imgur.com/me0bzTg.jpg

[Chortles Snort|eS]

HEAL NOW
YOU HAS AGGRO
BUFFS FADED
ALERT ALERT
NO CLASSIC

[dekova]

I'm fine with people using Gina. Not that much different from the log parser I used back in the day. The UI is much prettier though.

Not gonna say your opinion is wrong Izmael, but I think you're in the minority on this one.

[Canelek]

Pfft. Cable and ISDN were not that rare in 1999 (I didn't mention DSL because I forget when it became a popular competitor). That is about when they were becoming more mainstream and affordable. It's not like there wasn't coax (and CAT3 for ISDN) running into 90% of buildings.

Of course there were plenty of folks on dialup since this still was a period of technology transition, but let's not pretend like it was 1990.

[Ashenden]

I love that when people disagree with a change they take it to the absolute extreme via things like resolution and internet speed to try and make it sound dumb.

Is there a name for that kind of argument?

[akagami]

Pfft. Cable and ISDN were not that rare in 1999 (I didn't mention DSL because I forget when it became a popular competitor). That is about when they were becoming more mainstream and affordable. It's not like there wasn't coax (and CAT3 for ISDN) running into 90% of buildings.

Of course there were plenty of folks on dialup since this still was a period of technology transition, but let's not pretend like it was 1990.

Found out who was living in San Francisco in 1999.

[Baler]

Is there a name for that kind of argument?

It's called a debate. :)

[Canelek]

As far as GINA, I guess I don't care. It doesn't affect anyone else as far as I can tell. Baler's egg timer is certainly more classic, but it accomplishes the same thing--you'd just need more egg timers, labels, and hand speed. :)

[Canelek]

Found out who was living in San Francisco in 1999.

No, but you got the correct state, so touche.

[Ashenden]

I'd say the prevalence of GINA has an effect on the entire server. I doubt people in Velious had visual countdown bars for every cast of CH while they were (trying not to explode their computer) fighting Avatar of War.

Bring back Sirken's quest to kill GINA.

[AbstractVision]

What makes GINA different from the old log parsers is that it overlays essentially augmenting P99. When you can cast mez on six different targets and different times throughout the fight and know when each one of those is going to break down to the exact second, yes thats an unfair advantage.

[Izmael]

I love that when people disagree with a change they take it to the absolute extreme via things like resolution and internet speed to try and make it sound dumb.

Is there a name for that kind of argument?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
is the closest I can think of.

[Dolalin]

What makes GINA different from the old log parsers is that it overlays essentially augmenting P99. When you can cast mez on six different targets and different times throughout the fight and know when each one of those is going to break down to the exact second, yes thats an unfair advantage.

[workbench]

Why stop at not using GINA? Personally, I think when you classic, you should be wearing corduroys and this shirt:

https://getonfleek.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/CRW-077-1-300x300.jpg

[loramin]

I love that when people disagree with a change they take it to the absolute extreme via things like resolution and internet speed to try and make it sound dumb.

Is there a name for that kind of argument?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
is the closest I can think of.

I believe this is correct. In the more general sense you could say that someone making such an argument is making a "straw man" argument, but the specific kind of straw man would be one based on Reductio ad absurdum.

And before anyone tries to argue, I'm not trying to say that it never makes sense to use extremes in a debate. Of course that can be a valid rhetorical technique, sometimes, ie. when:

it builds on assertions which are actually present in the argument it is deconstructing, and not when it misrepresents them as a straw man. For example, any creationist argument that takes the form of "if evolution were real, we'd see fish turning into monkeys and monkeys turning into people all the time" only serves to ridicule itself, since it mischaracterises the theory of evolution to an extreme degree.

[Ashenden]

Maybe whataboutism? "You think this change should be more classical, but what about x y and z that aren't realistically changeable!"

[Donkey Hotay]

. . . yes thats an unfair advantage.

Over whom? People who want to pretend this isn't a game that outputs a log? People who can't install patches without making a thread in Server Chat for help? People who like being asked for buff refreshes because it's the only conversation they'll get today?

[Muggens]

HEAL NOW
YOU HAS AGGRO
BUFFS FADED
ALERT ALERT
NO CLASSIC

[Dolalin]

Maybe whataboutism? "You think this change should be more classical, but what about x y and z that aren't realistically changeable!"

Yes, it's whataboutery.

[Ashenden]

Over whom?

People who don't have overlayed timer bars and text popups and text to speech for malo landing, OOS landing, slow duration, DT window countdown, CH chain visualization to cover gaps with clickies, charm break alerts, resist alerts, invis fading alerts, CT spawn shout alerts, enrage alerts and timers, CC durations and early break alerts, DOT durations, snare durations. Every aspect of Ring War.

We get it, you use GINA and or ZlizEQMap and or nParse and don't want to not use GINA and or ZlizEQMap and or nParse.

[Donkey Hotay]

We get it, you use GINA and or ZlizEQMap and or nParse and don't want to not use GINA and or ZlizEQMap and or nParse.

Yeah, I put the time into learning how to do a simple computing task using a tool freely provided for the purpose. Isn't this part of the skillz I keep hearing this game takes?

[Baler]

I don't get why people get so upset over what other people use.
It doesn't affect you. If you're a better person/player without that stuff fine.
But don't talk shit.

If you believe in your mind of minds that Gina, ZlizEQMap and Gamparser makes the playfield unfair. You have nobody but yourself to blame. Don't be throwing a fuckin pity party for yourself and demand other people live your righteous path.

facts

[Ashenden]

I use GINA on Blue. There is no pity party. He asked what advantages it gives and I listed advantages it gives me over someone not using it off the top of my head.

That speech is a little yeesh. Righteous path? Sorry the idea of someone suggesting logging be turned off makes you this upset.

[Baler]

I use GINA on Blue. There is no pity party. He asked what advantages it gives and I listed advantages it gives me over someone not using it off the top of my head.

That speech is a little yeesh. Righteous path? Sorry the idea of someone suggesting logging be turned off makes you this upset.

People act like the entire classic experience hinges on an OPTIONAL program that doesn't affect them if other people use it. That's why I get upset.

If they don't want to use it they don't have to. If other people use it, it really doesn't affect them.

It's going to be the year 2020. It's not 1999
Whis isnt'a a Whatifism or w.e y'all call it. It's a fact. And i'm DEBATING this threads ideal with facts. Not feelings.

[Fammaden]

You can't "ban" GINA without banning log parsing because that's all the program really does in terms of interacting with the game client. So there's no way to prevent it other than taking away our log reading.

Log reading and parsing wasn't banned in the classic era and it won't be banned here. While I understand why can GINA rub players the wrong way, its simply not going anywhere.

I don't use it, don't really want to, choose not to play classes where it tends to be "required" at the higher level, but I don't fault others for it either. I wouldn't mind getting the discord overlay to work on P99 though.

[Baler]

You can't "ban" GINA without banning log parsing because that's all the program really does in terms of interacting with the game client. So there's no way to prevent it other than taking away our log reading.

They actually know how to limit what's sent to the log file. But that in it self would be not classic.

[Ashenden]

I wouldn't mind getting the discord overlay to work on P99 though.

Wouldn't that be lovely. RTSS can inject and overlay inside of P99 just fine, cmon Discord devs.

[bum3]

I had a friend pay for college by using a verbal log reader and speech to text program. He had setups for almost every high end camp he could duo monk/shammy. AFK farming at it's best.

[Tecmos Deception]

What makes GINA different from the old log parsers is that it overlays essentially augmenting P99. When you can cast mez on six different targets and different times throughout the fight and know when each one of those is going to break down to the exact second, yes thats an unfair advantage.

It's only luck if you know to the exact second. GINA doesn't know how to sense when server-side ticks are happening (yet).

[Arvan]

*shrug*

The noobs that need the crutch will use it and the old timers will play classic. :D

[Danth]

But that in it self would be not classic.

Classic went out the window a long time ago. That sky darkness patch that's specifically designed to unclassicly prevent people from using gamma adjustments to bypass it is effectively the same sort of issue but with the opposite solution--preventing the use, even the classic use--of outside-game hardware of software from being able to be used in-game.

"If you don't like it don't use it" is the most worthless and bankrupt argument I've ever seen when it comes to video game cheat modes. Don't like that headshot box cheat in a shooter? Don't use it! Don't complain that everyone else has it! Let's be real here, some of what GINA can do is absolutely within cheat-mode territory. I understand some players are terrible at the game and need any crutch they can find. Ok....but admit it and call a duck a duck.

I agree with the original post. The map overlays/timers/etc should not be permitted and should very much be interpreted as a third-party cheat.

Danth

[brokenpromise]

I kinda feel like you're a shook pleb if you arent using things like Gina. They are tools to help you play and perform as efficiently as possible. If you the type to lean back in your computer chair and get teary eyed and nostalgic with 20 year old memories of you sitting in your computer chair playing elf sim, that's fine.

[Tenlaar]

When the devs say "you're not supposed to know buff timers so we've taken them out" and your response is "okay I'll use a third party program to tell me the buff timers anyway" then you are cheating. You are using a third party program in order to gain an advantage that you are not supposed to have, even if you want to argue that you're only cheating in spirit and not by the letter of the law because devs have not taken action against you for it.

[zodium]

When the devs say "you're not supposed to know buff timers so we've taken them out" and your response is "okay I'll use a third party program to tell me the buff timers anyway" then you are cheating. You are using a third party program in order to gain an advantage that you are not supposed to have, even if you want to argue that you're only cheating in spirit and not by the letter of the law because devs have not taken action against you for it.

ban clocks, and brains

[Ashenden]

Devs didn't say "you're not supposed to know buff timers so we've taken them out" they said "our data says that in this time period you shouldn't see buff timers on the buff bar so we've taken them out"

[Chortles Snort|eS]

https://i.imgur.com/OdWA9mi.gif

[Tecmos Deception]

ban clocks, and brains

Fucking /time command. It's totally against the classic spirit.

[Tenlaar]

Devs didn't say "you're not supposed to know buff timers so we've taken them out" they said "our data says that in this time period you shouldn't see buff timers on the buff bar so we've taken them out"

Okay then....When the devs say "our data says that in this time period you shouldn't see buff timers on the buff bar so we've taken them out" and your response is "okay I'll use a third party program to tell me the buff timers anyway" then you are cheating. You are using a third party program in order to gain an advantage that you are not supposed to have, even if you want to argue that you're only cheating in spirit and not by the letter of the law because devs have not taken action against you for it.

[Danth]

ban clocks, and brains

You want to be the Shaman who has 50 clocks on his desk to keep track of stuff, have at it.

This discussion is utterly reminiscent of people defending their use of aimbots/etc in shooters. "If you don't like it don't use it!" "It's a third party program I'm not REALLY hacking!" Etc etc. The names and technology changes but people stay the same. Funny stuff.

Danth

[omgmo]

There is an exception in the 3rd party program rules for things like GINA:
"Programs that provide audible ques or overlay information by only reading the Everquest Log Files are currently allowed."

While at the same time violating this rule:
"Any program that interacts, inspects, or modifies the Everquest client in any way is not allowed."

http://wiki.project1999.com/Merged_Rules#Third_Party_Tools.2C_Exploiting:_You_ may_not_use_third-party_programs_on_Project_1999


You can lawyer that editing the render buffer where the EQ client is drawn isn't interacting with it like editing the system memory of the client itself would, but to that I say pttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tttttttttt.

Keep that shit in a separate program, overlays are bs.

[Ashenden]

There are pretty good on screen timers where you can manually set a bunch Danth. I for one would love to see people have to use those to manage all of their buffs etc because I am a huge proponent for masochism in all aspects of Green.

[Gustoo]

It doesn't matter what I think.

However, I think utilizing player logs in a smart way is pretty smart.

Its like setting a manual timer, only smarter. They would have to disable logs, which I don't think they should or can do.

Such a sophisticated tool is definitely not classic and allows much more granular and efficient management of buffs.

Such a sophisticated tool definitely changes the nature and character of the game.

Such a sophisticated tool was never required and remains unrequired for this game to be played effectively and enjoyably.

So I dunno.

TBH it feels like something that is going to be banned somehow. Right now they just arent sure how they will do it.

[Trollhide]

There's only one way to stop this egregious abuse of basic information:

Make the client TRULY classic: full-screen only, crashes when you alt-tab.

[GnomeCaptain]

Agree with OP.

Ban GINA.

And if we can ban voice comms please do.

It's about as far from classic as possible.

[Nagoya]

I love that when people disagree with a change they take it to the absolute extreme via things like resolution and internet speed to try and make it sound dumb.

Is there a name for that kind of argument?

maybe an Association fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy); the guy wants to remove something that didn't exist in 1999, so people pitch other stuff that didn't exist in 1999 (good internet, good computers) to make him look stupid.

honestly Baler for such a #classic champion, you're disappointing here.
if "some programs" existed in 1999 also to do similar things, then use these programs. GINA is not classic, and there is no way you can defend this.

and i'll pitch an association fallacy in there because we're having fun:

if you're defending GINA as something classic that we should be able to use in 2019, then you're defending the compass (we could use something similar in 99!), the Ctrl+M maps (we all had maps in 99!) and everything else you're fighting against.

GINA did not exist in 1999 and is not classic, period.
if other classic tools existed at the time, then use these classic tools.

my2¢

[Trollhide]

maybe an Association fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy); the guy wants to remove something that didn't exist in 1999, so people pitch other stuff that didn't exist in 1999 (good internet, good computers) to make him look stupid.

honestly Baler for such a #classic champion, you're disappointing here.
if "some programs" existed in 1999 also to do similar things, then use these programs. GINA is not classic, and there is no way you can defend this.

and i'll pitch an association fallacy in there because we're having fun:

if you're defending GINA as something classic that we should be able to use in 2019, then you're defending the compass (we could use something similar in 99!), the Ctrl+M maps (we all had maps in 99!) and everything else you're fighting against.

GINA did not exist in 1999 and is not classic, period.
if other classic tools existed at the time, then use these classic tools.

my2¢
What if we got a Rain Man playin EQ that can just read the chat window and immediately calculate all the information GINA provides in his head - should he be banned from playing EQ?

All it's doing is aggregating freely available information.

[Baler]

here's an extreme
Project 1999 didn't exist during classic, therefor not classic.

:rolleyes:

[Tenlaar]

What if we got a Rain Man playin EQ that can just read the chat window and immediately calculate all the information GINA provides in his head - should he be banned from playing EQ?

All it's doing is aggregating freely available information.

Stop trying to equate thinking with using third party programs, it's asinine.

[kylok]

What if a smarty pants person were able to code something from scratch? Would that be allowed?

[Baler]

It's like the unclassicest thing ever
https://i.imgur.com/v2u0ySi.png

[Vexenu]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ban GINA on Green but continue to allow it on Blue, much like the pet window. I think everyone knows it's grossly unclassic, but people will defend it to death simply because of the enormous advantage it provides to the player (which is pretty obvious, right? If it wasn't a huge deal then people wouldn't really care if it went away or not).

Keep quality of life allowances on Blue, keep Green as pure as possible in regards to the classic feel. (And yes, I understand log readers were around in classic, but it's much like how boxing was around back then as well - in both cases neither were nearly as prevalent as they are now. And so the staff enforces a rule against boxing in order to preserve a classic experience, even though boxing was technically classic. It's the same with GINA/log readers).

[Baler]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ban GINA

You don't realize what you're saying.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

There's only one way to stop this egregious abuse of basic information:

Make the client TRULY classic: full-screen only, crashes when you alt-tab.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=115247&dateline=1472095598

[Baler]

That is true, they should force fullscreen.
And the only way to access the wiki is to print it out.

[Rooj]

What log parsers were there in 1999?

[Baler]

What log parsers were there in 1999?

Text Parser is probably the keyword you're looking for. not log parser.

Text parsing is very old from the early days of computing.


voice communication is also classic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Wilco_(software)
I use to use it, its an oldy.

[Rooj]

Everyone already knows voice chat existed back then.

However, I'd have to ask, what percentage of EQ's population do you think were using log parsers or voice chat back then?

It mostly doesn't matter because there's nothing that can be done about it. If it's not GINA it will be something else. Parsing is fine in itself, it's when you start adding audio triggers and visual aides and shit that sort of turns it into automation.

[Baler]

I suddenly understand why politics is shit.

I for one am progina if you want to be prochoice that's fine too. It doesn't affect me.

[Vexenu]

"It doesn't affect me when people use a third party program that gives them a massive gameplay advantage."

If other people using GINA doesn't affect you then why do you use it? If the program has no impact then what's the point? No one would use it. So yes, other people using it affects you. It makes the game easier for them. It allows them to clear content more safely and efficiently. It gives them greater access to pixels. You know this is the case, which is why you choose to use it also. Because it makes the game easier for you. Why are you even trying to deny this obvious fact?

If GINA was not extremely powerful then it would be rarely used and no one would care if it was banned.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

me alwayS full ScrEEN u filthy caSuaLs

[Mblake81]

Everyone already knows voice chat existed back then.

However, I'd have to ask, what percentage of EQ's population do you think were using log parsers or voice chat back then?

It mostly doesn't matter because there's nothing that can be done about it. If it's not GINA it will be something else. Parsing is fine in itself, it's when you start adding audio triggers and visual aides and shit that sort of turns it into automation.

You weren't tabbing in and out of the game and with single core cpu the game took up your processing power. Some guys might've had a second computer to run a voice chat program but it wasn't the norm. My roommate eventually did get a second computer when he upgraded so he had two to run eq. No one in my guild used voice. Ring of Valor would take over /auc /shout and /ooc to do raids on Lady Vox.

I suddenly understand why politics is shit.

I for one am progina if you want to be prochoice that's fine too. It doesn't affect me.

Sure, i see it as more of the steroid debate. Do you allow something that can possibly give an edge to some? if so should others opt to use it or not. You could argue it is performance-enchancing (that's the point) and some people are not able to hit home runs without aid.

I would vote remove it entirely. You know those you are playing with or against are using their own skill. When they win or do good its worth congratulating.

-my 2 cents.

[Baler]

If GINA was not extremely powerful then it would be rarely used and no one would care if it was banned.

I like having the freedom to decide if I want to use gina or not. The problem with calling for things to be banned is when does it stop and who gets to decide what's worth a ban.

There is a bigger picture and it's not a 1 issue topic. You want gina banned. But do you want forced fullscreen? When will it end. Just let the people have freedom.

Remember this when they ban something you like, you stood up and asked for something someone else likes to be banned.

Sure, i see it as more of the steroid debate. Do you allow something that can possibly give an edge to some? if so should others opt to use it or not. You could argue it is performance-enchancing (that's the point) and some people are not able to hit home runs without aid.

Steroids should be mandatory in professional sport.

[Mblake81]

I like having the freedom to decide if I want to use gina or not. The problem with calling for things to be banned is when does it stop and who gets to decide what's worth a ban.

There is a bigger picture and it's not a 1 issue topic. You want gina banned. But do you want forced fullscreen? When will it end. Just let the people have freedom.
So keep calling for things to be banned until they come to your front door and tell something you have has been banned.



Steroids should be mandatory in professional sport.

Ok, but the point of this server is to recreate the classic experience. We are not actually talking about a real life scenario where the gestapo are coming door to door. Where does it end? that is easy. Was it in classic or not? that is your answer.

The original game forced the screen (periscope or toggle full screen). Should P99 also force it? if not then you can do things you couldn't in era. I have been testing full screen only, sometimes I remind myself I am spoiled when i can't open up Youtube for a few minutes while medding but that is the game in how I remember it.

I am thinking what possibly could Rogean or Nilbog change (classic change) that would upset me so that I would get up in arms about it. I wasn't one of the pet window guys or any of that.

The other point, I am not sure if you are being serious. Players should get juiced to play? so in EQ sense with this comparison Rogean and Nilbog should package GINA with the P99 download and make it an integral part of the game.

[Baler]

Ok, but the point of this server is to recreate the classic experience.

The SERVER yes
The USER no, this part can never be recreated.

People will write their own private log parser if they ban gina. (there are already some on github)

get, over, it.

[Vexenu]

I like having the freedom to decide if I want to use gina or not. The problem with calling for things to be banned is when does it stop and who gets to decide what's worth a ban.

There is a bigger picture and it's not a 1 issue topic. You want gina banned. But do you want forced fullscreen?

Is there any conceivable advantage from playing in a window that could not be achieved playing fullscreen with a second monitor? Not really.

Contrast with GINA, which absolutely provides very noticeable gameplay enhancements.

Look, I understand where you're coming from. It's a neat program that enhances the game. It gives you more control and awareness that you wouldn't otherwise have. But that's exactly why it's not classic and it doesn't belong on Green. Leave it on Blue for the hardcore min maxers to play with since it's been going on for so long now. But there's no justification to have it on Green if the goal is to promote a classic EQ experience.

[Mblake81]

The SERVER yes
The USER no, this part can never be recreated.

People will write their own private log parser if they ban gina.

get, over, it.

Anything to get an edge I guess.

[Baler]

But that's exactly why it's not classic

Proof please, Show proof there wasn't a text parser with audio and visual during classic.

Since text parsers are older than windows I'm pretty sure you're searching for a black cat in a dark room.

[Vexenu]

Proof please, Show proof there wasn't a text parser with audio and visual during classic.

Boxing was classic. Yet boxing is banned from this server. Do you understand why? If so, then you understand why GINA should be banned as well.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

GINA NOT CLASSIC
inb4 disabled from green

[Baler]

Boxing was classic. Yet boxing is banned from this server. Do you understand why? If so, then you understand why GINA should be banned as well.

That's a reach. Boxxing isn't a program.
Nope, no correlation between boxxing and gina. sorry

Also I think 99% of people on p99 prefer no boxxing. Not the best argument material.

[Tenlaar]

The SERVER yes
The USER no, this part can never be recreated.

People will write their own private log parser if they ban gina. (there are already some on github)

get, over, it.
If the staff says that using a third party program that emulates those functions is against the rules then people being able to make their own doesn't suddenly become not against the rules, what are you even trying to argue here?

[Mblake81]

Proof please, Show proof there wasn't a text parser with audio and visual during classic.

Since text parsers are older than windows I'm pretty sure you're searching for a black cat in a dark room.

I don't doubt you in this. It is not something provable or not. Maybe if someone has a parser from back then or can find a download link on a website it would provide positive proof.

It very well could easily be one of those EQ secrets that some of the best players were using back in the day, like recharges etc that the normal players were not aware of.

It's a case of Git Gud and if you are willing to do that for the win.

[Baler]

If the staff says that using a third party program that emulates those functions is against the rules then people being able to make their own doesn't suddenly become not against the rules, what are you even trying to argue here?

The staff have said there are programs people shouldn't be using that they are.
You can't stop people who want to abuse power of knowledge.
That's why there is an argument that people will just write their own parser.

If the staff decided to ban gina, would I use it? No
Other people may have a different answer however.

It's a case of Git Gud and if you are willing to do that for the win.

I don't like the git gud mentality. It has no place in a healthy community. I apologize if I came off that way.

[Vexenu]

Wassup guys just enjoying some CLASSIC EVERQUEST here with my GINA/UI setup that gives me ABSOLUTELY NO gameplay advantages! Don't mind me! As classic as it gets!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwH5myJ6CIk

[omgmo]

This isn't about text parsing, it's about modifying the rendered game client. I think you know that, so I don't understand why you keep going back to text parsing. Noone is trying to ban text parsing, that is silly.

Go write your own text parser, noone will mind.

[Baler]

Wassup guys just enjoying some CLASSIC EVERQUEST here with my GINA/UI setup that gives me ABSOLUTELY NO gameplay advantages! Don't mind me! As classic as it gets!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwH5myJ6CIk

No one has argued there isn't an advantage with gina. We heard you the first time.

The topic you should put more energy into is how indepth were the text parsers during live classic.

This isn't about text parsing, it's about modifying the rendered game client.
You're in the wrong thread. That's not what this thread is about.

But if you want to talk about client..
We use the TITANIUM CLIENT.
Shocked.gif

---
Mount up boys! we have a new holy crusade!
Ban the titanium client!

[Tenlaar]

If the staff decided to ban gina, would I use it? No
Other people may have a different answer however.
Well since you admit that the staff banning third party programs that emulate those functions would result in less people using them, I'm not sure what your argument really is. We shouldn't try to stop something unless we can stop it 100% all the time and forever?

[Wonkie]

Mount up boys! we have a new holy crusade!
Ban the titanium client!

[Baler]

Well since you admit that the staff banning third party programs that emulate those functions would result in less people using them, I'm not sure what your argument really is. We shouldn't try to stop something unless we can stop it 100% all the time and forever?

If your countries government banned onions would you still eat onions?
I'm not sure what your argument really is.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

[dekova]

Setting aside whether or not Gina should be banned, maybe ask the question if it's even feasible to be banned.

Are we just going to look for executable names? Come on guys, that's not going to stop anything.

Right now we have people botting, and it's problematic preventing that. Which I think we can all agree is something that is a much bigger issue then a log parser.

[omgmo]

Yes of course, I can see how you would misunderstand "modifying the rendered game client" to not mean injecting pixels on top of the Titanium client's pixels while you play, but instead to mean start a holy crusade to ban the client entirely.

I can no longer take you seriously. But I hope people keep you tossing insane retorts for about 100 more pages.

[Voodude]

Yes of course, I can see how you would misunderstand "modifying the rendered game client" to not mean injecting pixels on top of the Titanium client's pixels while you play, but instead to mean start a holy crusade to ban the client entirely.

I can no longer take you seriously. But I hope people keep you tossing insane retorts for about 100 more pages.

An overlay and an injection are two wildly different things.

[Mblake81]

I don't like the git gud mentality. It has no place in a healthy community. I apologize if I came off that way.

:)

Right now we have people botting, and it's problematic preventing that. Which I think we can all agree is something that is a much bigger issue then a log parser.

Sure, but the thread is about Gina so people are discussing that topic. One of the Green Texts made a thread recently concerning botting on green.

With botting you don't know who is really a player or if its just one guy. With programs you don't know if the player was really that good or if the program was. You can't really Git Gud concerning the program unless you chose to use it as well. That is why I referenced the steroid debate.

[Daud]

This isn't about text parsing, it's about modifying the rendered game client. I think you know that, so I don't understand why you keep going back to text parsing. Noone is trying to ban text parsing, that is silly.

Go write your own text parser, noone will mind.

So you're cool if I have GINA read the eq log file from a mapped network drive and display the overlay output on another machine?

[meritt]

This isn't about text parsing, it's about modifying the rendered game client. I think you know that, so I don't understand why you keep going back to text parsing. Noone is trying to ban text parsing, that is silly.

That is not how GINA works. It does not, in any manner, affect the rendered game client. It displays content on your Windows desktop just like any other application. You can position those on atop of your game client to occlude a portion of it, but that does not affect the game client itself.

The only way to ban GINA would be to disable logging. That's why everyone is going back to parsing, because that's the avenue from which GINA and similar applications operate.

[omgmo]

An overlay and an injection are two wildly different things.

Actually no they aren't, there is only one render buffer, all software writes to it. GINA is replacing/modifying (depending on if/when transparency is involved) what the EQ client draws in the render buffer.

[meritt]

GINA is replacing/modifying (depending on if/when transparency is involved) what the EQ client draws in the render buffer.

It quite literally does no such thing.

[omgmo]

So you're cool if I have GINA read the eq log file from a mapped network drive and display the overlay output on another machine?

Yes. Create a Rube Goldberg machine for all I care. Just keep shit away from the game client, that is the only thing with a clear and distinctly identifiable and enforceable boundary. The bulk of the benefit is having it drawn in the game client anyway.

[omgmo]

It quite literally does no such thing.

If it didn't write to the render buffer, nothing would be drawn. Pretty sure noone is hallucinating when they see the overlay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framebuffer

[zaneosak]

That video of the monk soloing King literally made me laugh for 3 minutes. That's some classic everquest shit right there baby! HAHA. Never used Gina, never cared to, but those overlays are god tier hilarious with the combination of how shit they look versus how extremely useful they are.

[Daud]

Actually no they aren't, there is only one render buffer, all software writes to it. GINA is replacing/modifying (depending on if/when transparency is involved) what the EQ client draws in the render buffer.

By that standard, putting any window over the EQ client window would also be banned.

[meritt]

If it didn't write to the render buffer, nothing would be drawn. Pretty sure noone is hallucinating when they see the overlay.

Your lack of technical understanding here is difficult to work with. If I decide to drag my Spotify window over the top of my Everquest game, do you think that magically hooks into the game client? Or is it perhaps just how a windowing OS happens to function?

It's just a windowed application man. That's why, for instance, if you exit of out of EQ while GINA is still running, I end up with a bunch of GINA overlays on my desktop. It's 100% independent of the Everquest process and does not do any sort of hooking, interception, nor injection.

Want some evidence that's been around far longer than this argument?

* http://www.jaburt.com/eq/audiotriggers.htm -- Why isn't GINA working properly when I'm playing in full screen mode?
* https://gambosoft.eqresource.com/gamtexttriggersgettingstarted.php -- Using the onscreen displays REQUIRES that you play EverQuest in windowed mode. This is due to how the overlays are built.

You really should spend a bit of time attempting to learn this instead of linking me to random shit you've googled about rendering pipelines and frame buffers.

[omgmo]

By that standard, putting any window over the EQ client window would also be banned.

Just like I said many posts prior, there would be lawyering over this.

Technically you are correct, except that in the context you describe it would be for the purpose of providing "an unintended advantage".
http://wiki.project1999.com/Merged_Rules#Third_Party_Tools.2C_Exploiting:_You_ may_not_use_third-party_programs_on_Project_1999

[dekova]

If it didn't write to the render buffer, nothing would be drawn. Pretty sure noone is hallucinating when they see the overlay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framebuffer

That's not how it works.

GINA simply shows non-interactive, transparent windows on your computer. You can move or close EQ without affecting GINA windows at all.

You don't even need EQ running to have GINA windows displayed.

[omgmo]

Your lack of technical understanding here is difficult to work with. Please stop linking me to random shit you've googled. If I decide to drag my Spotify window over the top of my Everquest game, do you think that magically hooks into the game client? Or is it perhaps just how a windowing OS happens to function?

It's just a windowed application man. That's why, for instance, if you exit of out of EQ while GINA is still running, I end up with a bunch of GINA overlays on my desktop. It's 100% independent of the Everquest process and does not do any sort of hooking, interception, nor injection.

I never stated it actually interacts with the game client's binary or OS reserved memory, I described what it was doing to the video cards render buffer, and I was explicit that this was shared space not owned by any particular application. You can lawyer the render buffer being shared space so not mattering if you like, that is fine; I disagree of course. However, I'm a software engineer, specifically a game developer, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.

[dekova]

I never stated it actually interacts with the game client's binary or OS reserved memory, I described what it was doing to the video cards render buffer, and I was explicit that this was shared space not owned by any particular application. You can lawyer the render buffer being shared space so not mattering if you like, that is fine; I disagree of course. However, I'm a software engineer, specifically a game developer, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Are you suggesting that nothing other than EQ should be rendered/visible?

[meritt]

However, I'm a software engineer, specifically a game developer, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Hahaha. Okay, I see this is a troll post, nobody can be simultaneously both this arrogant and utterly ignorant.

[omgmo]

Are you suggesting that nothing other than EQ should be rendered/visible?

Not at all. I'm suggesting any program that draws in the same pixel space as the EQ game client for the purpose of giving an unintended advantage, should not be allowed.

[omgmo]

Hahaha. Okay, I see this is a troll post, nobody can be simultaneously both this arrogant and utterly ignorant.

None of you plebs even knew what a Frame Buffer was, it's like I got on the short bus and started arguing what the best flavor of jelly is.

I'm out.

[Ashenden]

I feel like if staff watched Kelza's video on the bastardization of P99 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwH5myJ6CIk) as mentioned earlier in the thread they would double down on killing some of logging if possible on Green.

The level of workarounds is just ridiculous. Camp bound to the same key as Feign Death so that it has something to parse to start a timer. Sneak using some kind of /tar Kelza and clicky double bound macro IDK to let him know whether or not sneak succeeded instantly.

[kylok]

Not at all. I'm suggesting any program that draws in the same pixel space as the EQ game client for the purpose of giving an unintended advantage, should not be allowed.

How would you go about telling the difference between the GINA overlays and my picture of my cat that I like to have overlayed on my EQ game client?

[meritt]

Not at all. I'm suggesting any program that draws in the same pixel space as the EQ game client for the purpose of giving an unintended advantage, should not be allowed.


You know you can put the timers outside the window right... Because they're separate windowed overlays that do not affect the game client whatsoever. That's how a lot of people use GINA and similar, because we don't want to occlude the game visuals and instead use the ample empty space on our modern monitors. My overlays are adjacent to the EQ window.

[dekova]

Not at all. I'm suggesting any program that draws in the same pixel space as the EQ game client for the purpose of giving an unintended advantage, should not be allowed.

By that argument, I shouldn't alt-tab and look stuff up in firefox. It's using the same pixel space. And gina windows can be set to the side too.

This seems like a really odd argument to be making.

[Daud]

The bulk of the benefit is having it drawn in the game client anyway.

I think this is really the problem with this guy's ideas. He's already stated he doesn't have a problem with the actual information or overlays for some reason if you put it on a different monitor.

I don't think he understands that you still get all of the same information, but this guy thinks that it being over the client window gives some kind of advantage rather than having it right next to the window for some reason.

I'm actually really curious to hear what advantage exactly that is, I keep all of my overlays off the client window just because it's better for visibility and I can see both the game and the timers better.

[bwe]

gina is hilariously not in the spirit of classic eq

[Vexenu]

To be honest the technical arguments don't really matter. The simple fact is that GINA provides grossly unclassic gameplay advantages to the user. Which is why people in this thread are so upset by the prospect of it being banned.

There is literally no argument against the blatantly obvious fact that GINA as is being used today on Blue is incredibly powerful and not classic. The only argument I'm seeing is that it should be left alone because it runs outside the EQ client entirely and therefore should not (some say cannot!) be banned. These are bad arguments, akin to saying, "Because the police cannot stop everyone from getting drunk and getting behind the wheel, drunk driving should not be a crime."

If the staff decide they don't want GINA on Green I believe they could find a way to make running it extremely tricky (and risky, if the price for being caught is a ban), at the very least. Do not underestimate their cleverness or abilities.

[dekova]

If the staff decide they don't want GINA on Green I believe they could find a way to make running it extremely tricky (and risky, if the price for being caught is a ban), at the very least. Do not underestimate their cleverness or abilities.

So when I hear people say "ban GINA", I really think they mean any of the multitude of programs that does what GINA does: read the logs and display info/timers.

In my head, there are two ways to do this:

Inspect all running executables.
Prevent logs from written or read in the first place.


I think there are technical and privacy issues with the first (ironically enough, wasn't it Sony that got in trouble for this?). The second is certainly doable.

[Trollhide]

itt: a bunch of purported adults are real fuckin' concerned about the specifics of the manner in which a bunch of other purported adults choose to play a 20 year old video game.

The absolute firstest of first world problems.

[bwe]

why can't i have my world of warcraft timers in my everquest it's not fair

[meritt]

If the staff decide they don't want GINA on Green I believe they could find a way to make running it extremely tricky

Disable logging. That's how you prevent GINA, DPS Parsers, Mappers, etc.

[dekova]

why can't i have my world of warcraft timers in my everquest it's not fair

Go for it man, I don't care.

[Bazia]

GINA is way more convenient and unclassic than tons of stuff staff have already removed (duxa ui, buff timers, etc)

using it should be considered patch evasion

[solleks]

is GINA a nice old lady or a hooker? it's hard to say from the name alone.

[Tenlaar]

gina is hilariously not in the spirit of classic eq

This is what it comes down. We're starting Green without damned mana numbers in the UI because classic but these guys want to argue that third party overlays giving them incredibly detailed ability countdowns and buff timers and all kinds of stuff shouldn't be seen as not classic.

[Vexenu]

itt: a bunch of purported adults are real fuckin' concerned about the specifics of the manner in which a bunch of other purported adults choose to play a 20 year old video game.

The absolute firstest of first world problems.

1) GINA provides enormous gameplay advantages
2) EQ inherently has a competitive component, in that players must compete for a limited number of spawns of the most contested mobs
3) It follows that players who do not use GINA are competitively disadvantaged compared to those who do
4) Since GINA is grossly unclassic, players are essentially being forced to sacrifice classic gameplay if they want to compete for highly contested spawns

Given that LITERALLY THE ENTIRE PURPOSE of the Green server is to create an experience of classic EQ as close as possible to the original, how can GINA on Green be reasonably defended by anyone? Leave it on Blue, no one cares. But why allow something so grossly unclassic on a server that is going to great lengths to be as classic as possible? It makes no sense.

[kylok]

So... I don't use this program. But, how much of an advantage do you feel that it provides? What content can be done with it that could not be done without it?

[aaezil]

You dont need it to play if you actually read the screen or have a feel for how long buffs last (most old time players do)

Its kind of a gimmicky crutch for bad players mostly

[Trollhide]

Here's what GINA provides in a nutshell:

It shows a timer of Vox / Nagafen AoE that they cast every 12(?) seconds.

Raid leader guy on discord calls out this timer in voice chat

Any raid members using GINA also have a visual of the timer

50% of the raid ignores the timer & call anyway and eats the AoE



Literally the same thing can be accomplished by counting 1-Mississippi, 2-Mississippi... 12-Mississippi

[kylok]

Here's what GINA provides in a nutshell:

It shows a timer of Vox / Nagafen AoE that they cast every 12(?) seconds.

Raid leader guy on discord calls out this timer in voice chat

Any raid members using GINA also have a visual of the timer

50% of the raid ignores the timer & call anyway and eats the AoE



Literally the same thing can be accomplished by counting 1-Mississippi, 2-Mississippi... 12-Mississippi

That's about what I figured... not sure why people are so upset about parsers and graphs...

[Mblake81]

That's about what I figured... not sure why people are so upset about parsers and graphs...

Some of us have made the argument that Discord and voice shouldn't be there for Green. Can't really enforce it. Again, why are people upset? if this is a genuine question then ask yourself why the devs here are going to such lengths to recreate the classic experience of original EQ.

Here, using 2019 tools to dominate a 1999 game that didn't have to take any of this into consideration in its game design as these things didn't exist. You can't have anything close, because exact is not possible, by bending and giving way to it just because.

A few times now I have responded to someone in these kinds of threads because they are not sure why people are upset about something so trivial. I suppose its one of those things that you get or you don't, you care or you don't and it just can't be helped otherwise.

Edit: In B4 someone asks why I am not using a computer from 1999 and a dial up service. It has been a defensive come back argument for these opinions. A quality CRT monitor would display EQ better and be what was used, I don't have one of those anymore.

[meritt]

Some of us have made the argument that Discord and voice shouldn't be there for Green

Why would you make that argument though? I used RogerWilco in 1999 for voice chat.

[Mblake81]

Why would you make that argument though? I used RogerWilco in 1999 for voice chat.

You used Rogerwilco for EQ voice chat?

Reasons. trying to run an extra program on a single core cpu while running an intensive game..

..you know what? Balor is right. This will not be resolved. No one I played with used voice, no one in my guild used it or asked others to. I don't remember people in my groups asking if others used something like Roger Wilco. So for me its not recognizable.

For you it is. Since you used it then it is your classic experience (assuming you used it for EQ with your group mates/guild)

Discord though is not just voice. You can do a lot of interesting things with it, such as automated bot timers. :o

[whitebandit]

Hell yeah rogerwilco or ICQ back in early 2000's for sure... That was a thing. It wasnt popular but it happened for sure and even being early tweens i was in on that shit. --- GINA not so much though.

<Familjen>
<Bristlebanes Guildless>
<Some RZ Guild>?

[Mblake81]

Hell yeah rogerwilco or ICQ back in early 2000's for sure... That was a thing. It wasnt popular but it happened for sure and even being early tweens i was in on that shit. --- GINA not so much though.

<Familjen>
<Bristlebanes Guildless>
<Some RZ Guild>?

What year early 2000s?

A friend of my room mates, his name is Jordan, worked for a local telecom. I remember him bringing by a headset and some software once to show off internet voice chat. Fuzzy memory of what year that was but it might've been around 2003. Voice was considered laggy at best before this (his words).

ICQ or Aim, for sure. Not a voice component but text messages. Other than that perhaps the guilds Yahoo clubs page. I suppose the 3l33tZ were on a different level.

[whitebandit]

What year early 2000s?

A friend of my room mates, his name is Jordan, worked for a local telecom. I remember him bringing by a headset and some software once to show off internet voice chat. Fuzzy memory of what year that was but it might've been around 2003. Voice was considered laggy at best before this (his words).

ICQ or Aim, for sure. Not a voice component but text messages. Other than that perhaps the guilds Yahoo clubs page. I suppose the 3l33tZ were on a different level.

I didnt start getting heavy into guild stuff until around the same time, 2003 or so sounds right.

So while maybe not.... 1999 classic, this shit existed at at the very least in the kunark/velious era

[Mblake81]

I didnt start getting heavy into guild stuff until around the same time, 2003 or so sounds right.

So while maybe not.... 1999 classic, this shit existed at at the very least in the kunark/velious era

Ruins of Kunark release date: April 24, 2000

Scars of Velious release date: December 5, 2000

Shadows of Luclin release date: December 4, 2001

[Mblake81]

Actually I think i am right. We came back to EQ during the Lost Dungeons of Norrath expansion and this when Jordan brought the headset/software by.

The Legacy of Ykesha: February 25, 2003

Lost Dungeons of Norrath: September 9, 2003

Anecdotal on my part. Peoples experiences vary. During the original era running a 500-800 single core processor.. idk. I will not say it didn't happen in the era this server is taking place but I am doubtful.

[kylok]

Some of us have made the argument that Discord and voice shouldn't be there for Green. Can't really enforce it. Again, why are people upset? if this is a genuine question then ask yourself why the devs here are going to such lengths to recreate the classic experience of original EQ.

Here, using 2019 tools to dominate a 1999 game that didn't have to take any of this into consideration in its game design as these things didn't exist. You can't have anything close, because exact is not possible, by bending and giving way to it just because.

A few times now I have responded to someone in these kinds of threads because they are not sure why people are upset about something so trivial. I suppose its one of those things that you get or you don't, you care or you don't and it just can't be helped otherwise.

It was a genuine question, and thank you for your response. I believe the devs are here to make a classic-as-possible EverQuest experience available to all in a living museum sort of fashion - from the server side. I feel they have done a great job so far and support their efforts and decisions.

Where we disagree is whether or not this tool allows players to dominate this game - I do not feel that it does. It appears quite convenient, having the in your face visual display that an ability is usable/buff timers/etc... but I'm not seeing anything that a player couldn't otherwise do without this tool. It's not doing anything like MQ or ShowEQ. This might allow a new player to continue playing a game that may otherwise quit, but I don't see it being the one thing they needed to suddenly become a skillful player.

I get where you're coming from, wanting the experience to be as stock and classic as possible for everyone. But a line has to be drawn somewhere in terms of enforcement of that ideal. It seems like they're doing everything they can, short of disabling the log file - which I do not believe will happen. This topic has been touched on before, although not this exact tool but another one that reads log files and displays your position on a map.
Third-party app rules question (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=722090&highlight=file#post722090)
Rogean stated "Programs that parse the log file are fine, as long as they do not do any type of automatic control/response/manipulation/macro on your character in place of manual control."

Logs are classic, they should be available in my opinion. Everyone's EQ experience was different back in the day. Yes, in terms of hardware and knowledge limitations (although not universally) but also in terms of game experience. Some were casual and never hit max level, some did casual pick up style raiding, some had pre-made groups, some people did raiding on a regular schedule... and you also had guilds like Fires of Heaven. There's lots of ways to play this game, we as players get the freedom to choose how to do that. The log file was an intentional tool given to the player in the original game. It should remain available to those who want to use it to recreate that style of game play that was being done by the top 1% guilds of the time by parsing the data.

[Bazia]

itt: a bunch of purported adults are real fuckin' concerned about the specifics of the manner in which a bunch of other purported adults choose to play a 20 year old video game.

The absolute firstest of first world problems.

itt: a bunch of adults are FUCKIN concerned the way other adults play (GINA, boxing, macroquest, botting, etc) a 20 year old video game

you could use this retarded statement for literally anything, what a peanutbrain take

[Mblake81]

It should remain available to those who want to use it to recreate that style of game play that was being done by the top 1% guilds of the time by parsing the data.

So it shall be.

The top guilds contending on green will all be using it along with Discord, of course.

[kylok]

So it shall be.

The top guilds contending on green will all be using it along with Discord, of course.

Yes, but they're the same type of people who were parsing the data for dps and AC formula calculations and getting on conference calls during raids back in 1999. That's the way they want to play, and they always could.

[Trollhide]

literally anything

11430

[Ashenden]

That's about what I figured... not sure why people are so upset about parsers and graphs...

I dunno man, I question people who are going to play on Green but think stuff like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwH5myJ6CIk) is totally fine and not at all advantageous.

[Baler]

Guys with a sad heart i'm here to tell you all..
The wiki is being deleted.

It's not classic and gives an advantage. Thank you to everyone over the years who contributed. But for the well being and health of the green server it must be shutdown.

[whitebandit]

Ruins of Kunark release date: April 24, 2000

Scars of Velious release date: December 5, 2000

Shadows of Luclin release date: December 4, 2001

https://i.imgur.com/BZTeRBb.png

[Gustoo]

Project 1999 didn't exist during classic, therefor not classic.

:

Shut her down boys.

[zodium]

here's an extreme
Project 1999 didn't exist during classic, therefor not classic.

:rolleyes:

MODS delete this post before nilbog and rogeman see it and are forced to return to the bizarro dimension

[Dolalin]

I think there is a case for disabling log output to disk for a period of time. Maybe up until Kunark or Velious.

GINA is not in the spirit of classic EQ. Period.

But of course I am not a dev.

[Niedar]

It was a genuine question, and thank you for your response. I believe the devs are here to make a classic-as-possible EverQuest experience available to all in a living museum sort of fashion - from the server side. I feel they have done a great job so far and support their efforts and decisions.

Where we disagree is whether or not this tool allows players to dominate this game - I do not feel that it does. It appears quite convenient, having the in your face visual display that an ability is usable/buff timers/etc... but I'm not seeing anything that a player couldn't otherwise do without this tool. It's not doing anything like MQ or ShowEQ. This might allow a new player to continue playing a game that may otherwise quit, but I don't see it being the one thing they needed to suddenly become a skillful player.

I get where you're coming from, wanting the experience to be as stock and classic as possible for everyone. But a line has to be drawn somewhere in terms of enforcement of that ideal. It seems like they're doing everything they can, short of disabling the log file - which I do not believe will happen. This topic has been touched on before, although not this exact tool but another one that reads log files and displays your position on a map.
Third-party app rules question (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=722090&highlight=file#post722090)
Rogean stated "Programs that parse the log file are fine, as long as they do not do any type of automatic control/response/manipulation/macro on your character in place of manual control."

Logs are classic, they should be available in my opinion. Everyone's EQ experience was different back in the day. Yes, in terms of hardware and knowledge limitations (although not universally) but also in terms of game experience. Some were casual and never hit max level, some did casual pick up style raiding, some had pre-made groups, some people did raiding on a regular schedule... and you also had guilds like Fires of Heaven. There's lots of ways to play this game, we as players get the freedom to choose how to do that. The log file was an intentional tool given to the player in the original game. It should remain available to those who want to use it to recreate that style of game play that was being done by the top 1% guilds of the time by parsing the data.



Its a wrap folks, that Rogean confirms that log parsers are fine and ok and will not be removed. Just give up folks, GINA is classic.

[Izmael]

Hey, here's an idea. Not sure if this is technically feasible, though.

Delay the log files being written to the disk by a random value.

On Green only, use DSETUP to make a wrapper function around whatever writes log files, and store the log messages in a memory buffer instead of writing to the disk.
Every 2 minutes or so, roll a dice 100 and see if it's less than 10. If yes, flush the buffer to the disk. Also flush the buffer to the disk upon zoning, camping, /q, disconnection.


This way, we preserve logging, we make GINA and any other log parser much, much less useful. We don't have to worry about identifying GINA processes or anything fuzzy like that, we don't have to worry about overlays, etc.

As for log parsers being classic - I'm afraid they aren't. People back then didn't use log parsers, or voice comm (except maybe a Skype call 1-on-1 sometimes...). Yes, log parser tools existed in 1999. UNIX tools such as tail, grep, awk or sed existed probably a good 25-30 years before 1999.

But I don't think anyone used them to farm 10,000 Shralok Packs or whatever. People just played the game.

[Rooj]

Its a wrap folks, that Rogean confirms that log parsers are fine and ok and will not be removed. Just give up folks, GINA is classic.

The entire point of this thread is that GINA is more than just something that looks at the log, it gives you access to alerts.

The only way for the staff to enforce not using it would be somehow disallow logging, which is probably not going to happen (and a workaround will instantly begun to be worked on by someone). GINA isn't new, I don't know how old it is, but I'm pretty sure it's old enough for the staff to have made a decision about it years ago. So I'm going to assume that the staff categorizes it in the allowed "log parser" programs.

It should probably be added to the Getting Started page:
"5. You may not use third-party programs on Project 1999.

The use of any third-party programs on Project 1999, including but not limited to, Macroquest/Macroquest2(MQ/MQ2), ShowEQ(SEQ), or any other program that interacts with the Everquest Titanium Client, is strictly prohibited. Use of any third-party programs will be detected and will result in the permanent banning of your account(s). No exceptions will be made, and once a ban has been enacted for violation of this rule it will not be reversed.

This is not limited to programmable keyboards or other input devices that creates multiple inputs for a single keystroke or automated task.

Wineq2 by Lavishsoft is the exception to this rule. In addition, any program that strictly reads log files is acceptable."

Would be nice to have the links to any allowed program there as well for easier access, maybe even part of the installation instructions.

[Xallis]

So to me Gina is an intricate and meticulously set bunch of egg timers, most folk on this forum could code a version of a timer - even one based on log file parsing. So the form it takes is pretty irrelevant - some people will use it, most won't.

[Mblake81]

I dunno man, I question people who are going to play on Green but think stuff like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwH5myJ6CIk) is totally fine and not at all advantageous.

I am of the same opinion but the counter argument has been made that this is classic, if its not allowed then workarounds will be put in place just like the luclin models. These things are egg timers with text displays, they just augment a persons potential but do not define it. The 1% had something like this back in the day and its unfair to them to not have it on Green for their classic experience.

I would suggest, like Kelz, to consider getting good or pounding sand. :o

As for Discord, the case had been made that RogerWilco was released in 1999. Because of this voice chat should be allowed and is classic, people made conference calls to play with friends so voice chat is classic for some. Discord though is more than simple chat but I doubt that will have any traction for an argument.

[Dolalin]

So to me Gina is an intricate and meticulously set bunch of egg timers, most folk on this forum could code a version of a timer - even one based on log file parsing. So the form it takes is pretty irrelevant - some people will use it, most won't.

It would take a lot more effort and coordination to set up a meticulous number of egg timers than it takes to run GINA.

They are not equivalent.

You can kill someone both with a knife and with a gun. One is still more dangerous than the other. They are not equivalent.

[Izmael]

Voice comm isn't gong anywhere, unless R&N are ready to stick a policeman with a riot gun behind each player 24/7. Everyone has mobile phones and people can just use that with a headset to use Discord. So preventing it is pointless and I have no doubt R&N won't spend more than 1 second of their time to even consider that.

It's probably safe to stop bringing voice comm up in this thread. It's simply off-topic.

As for the egg timers - now that is perfectly classic. I think I used one myself occasionally back then.
But you have to set it yourself, not automate it through a log file parsing program.

[soronil]

Delay log dump to file by 5 sec. Done.
Classic atmosphere > classic mechanics

[Mblake81]

Voice comm isn't gong anywhere, unless R&N are ready to stick a policeman with a riot gun behind each player 24/7. Everyone has mobile phones and people can just use that with a headset to use Discord. So preventing it is pointless and I have no doubt R&N won't spend more than 1 second of their time to even consider that.

It's probably safe to stop bringing voice comm up in this thread. It's simply off-topic.

As for the egg timers - now that is perfectly classic. I think I used one myself occasionally back then.
But you have to set it yourself, not automate it through a log file parsing program.

Sure, things have changed so much with many options for workarounds. So its not possible, still I would argue about that because its an extra form of coordination that didn't exist in era. I think the trolls going on about "How p99 is super easy lol no skill" stuck in my craw more than I would like to admit. It got me thinking about all of the advantages players have now compared to back then.

So it was more a thought exercise than a real request. I think behind it all I wanted some of these new players to know they are not getting the real experience and to take the wind out of some hardcores.

:o

[Izmael]

Oh I totally agree that voice comm is a plague. If you AFK for 10 seconds you can miss an important thing in voice comm, but won't miss it in /gu or /g

[Mblake81]

Wassup guys just enjoying some CLASSIC EVERQUEST here with my GINA/UI setup that gives me ABSOLUTELY NO gameplay advantages! Don't mind me! As classic as it gets!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwH5myJ6CIk

Classic EQ Sleepers Tomb Raid, Conquest Guild (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA7e2ARHp9I)

[bwe]

Delay log dump to file by 5 sec. Done.
Classic atmosphere > classic mechanics

This is a perfect solution

[dekova]

How would delaying a log by five seconds solve anything?

People adjust their timers for buffs/roots/spawns/mezzes accordingly.

[Vexenu]

Voice comms were around in the classic era but were nowhere near as prevalent as today. Roger Wilco was a very primitive and unreliable piece of software. I used to use it in 99/2000 while playing FPS games and it would regularly crash, especially once you had more than ten or twelve people in the server. It also had no chat functionality. IRC channels and AIM were much preferred means of communicating during that era. The vast majority of raiding in the classic era was done without the use of voice comms. I don't think that banning voice comms is realistic at this point, though, even though I greatly prefer to play without them.

In regards to GINA and log readers: if there was no other realistic means to ban them from Green, would it really be so bad to disable player logs entirely? Would most players miss that functionality? Would the game suddenly become unplayable without real-time DPS meters and such? Somehow I think we'd manage, especially knowing that basically everything worth parsing has already been parsed to death on Blue. At the very least, putting a delay on logging or eliminating the ability of the logs to be read in real time seems worth exploring.

[dekova]

In regards to GINA and log readers: if there was no other realistic means to ban them from Green, would it really be so bad to disable player logs entirely? Would most players miss that functionality? Would the game suddenly become unplayable without real-time DPS meters and such? Somehow I think we'd manage, especially knowing that basically everything worth parsing has already been parsed to death on Blue. At the very least, putting a delay on logging or eliminating the ability of the logs to be read in real time seems worth exploring.

People hand-wave talk about banning gina (and programs like it) like it's easy. I think preventing logs from being written is the only way to do it.

I <3 my logs. Call me weird.

[kylok]

Devil's advocate here... The log file is classic, and client side. Why should we remove a classic feature that isn't being used in a way to give a significant advantage in game (like macroquest or showeq does... I.e. allowing you to do something you could otherwise not do)? We could also remove the hit points display from the inventory window and the game would be entirely playable - we already can't see mana in the green UI. The ultimate answer is the same for the log file... Shit's classic.

We can discuss this till the cows come home but I'd bet good money that the log file stays in, untouched for green.

[Tenlaar]

Why should we remove a classic feature that isn't be used in a way to give a significant advantage in game

Not only is it arguable that it doesn't give "significant advantage", it is also inarguable that GINA restores at least one advantage that the people who run the server specifically removed from the client because it's not supposed to be there.

[kylok]

I understand that buff timers are not displayed in game. But we're splitting hairs arguing whether you should have to manually set an egg timer or use a program to set an egg timer automatically.

[Tenlaar]

I understand that buff timers are not displayed in game. But we're splitting hairs arguing whether you should have to manually set an egg timer or use a program to set an egg timer automatically.

We're not talking about "an egg timer." Don't overly simplify what GINA provides.

[Vexenu]

What do people use logs for besides GINA? I'm honestly wondering. I've never used the logging feature in all my years of EQ, both on Live and on P1999. I have a hard time seeing how logging adds enough to the player experience to be left intact if it is mostly just being used to run what is basically a de facto cheat program outside the client.

If a feature is classic and can be used for perfectly legitimate functions but in practice is being used 95% of the time to circumvent client limitations, should it be retained or removed? I don't know the answer to that question. I am curious what others think. But that appears to be the situation here: logging is classic, but serves very few practical purposes at this point on P1999 besides feeding GINA, which is terribly unclassic.

Honestly I think boxing is the best analog here. Boxing is entirely classic, and yet is banned on P1999 servers. Why? Because free player accounts and hardware advances make boxing much, much easier than it was back in the day. And if you allow boxing then even people who don't like boxing are essentially forced to box if they want to compete with the boxers. And soon everyone on the server is boxing, which is not remotely classic. And so boxing is banned here even though it was allowed in classic, explicitly to preserve the integrity of the classic experience in the face of the realities of the present day gaming environment.

I think that utilizing whatever means (including removing logging from Green entirely) would serve a similar function. You remove a feature that is classic because if you don't it will be abused so extensively that the effects will be broadly unclassic. It is undoubtedly the lesser of two evils, especially since logging itself has no direct gameplay impact, while GINA has a large one.

[Izmael]

Logs are of paramount importance and must be kept as a feature. Without logs, we'd be struggling to find evidence for a lot of stuff here.

As I said in a previous message, a simple solution would be to delay flushing the logs to disk by a random amount of time, somewhere between 1 and 30 minutes. Also flush on zoning, /q, disconnect and camp. Do it on Green only. If people want to mess around on Blue with GINA and solo Naggy or whatever on their 5k hp monks - go for it, Blue is the place for it. But Green = classic, hard mode.

This way, we preserve the logging feature, but we essentially disable GINA and similar third party programs that give an unfair advantage.

[Glasken]

I love that when people disagree with a change they take it to the absolute extreme via things like resolution and internet speed to try and make it sound dumb.

Is there a name for that kind of argument?

Reductio ad Absurdum, a common thing nowadays especially in political ... lets call them "discussions". The goal is to reduce a point to its most simplistic state and then take it to 11 on the absurdity scale, in order to prove that the point itself is silly.

It is also a low form of debate and is often used as a haughty dismissal rather than a tool to add to a discussion, but that's just like, my opinion, man.

[dussle27]

Seems a bit unfair considering most players have been disallowed vaGINA their whole lives.

[dekova]

What do people use logs for besides GINA?

Fair question.

I keep logs to see:

how many kills per level
what the average loot drops are for specific mobs
what my skill levels were (before they got displayed in the UI)
check /auc sellers and prices for an item
parse damage with different weapons
the frequency of mob placeholders
etc.

[Vexenu]

Logs are of paramount importance and must be kept as a feature. Without logs, we'd be struggling to find evidence for a lot of stuff here.

As I said in a previous message, a simple solution would be to delay flushing the logs to disk by a random amount of time, somewhere between 1 and 30 minutes. Also flush on zoning, /q, disconnect and camp. Do it on Green only. If people want to mess around on Blue with GINA and solo Naggy or whatever on their 5k hp monks - go for it, Blue is the place for it. But Green = classic, hard mode.

This way, we preserve the logging feature, but we essentially disable GINA and similar third party programs that give an unfair advantage.
This really sounds like the best idea if it is technically feasible and not able to be easily circumvented by GINA modifications (and it sounds like it would be very difficult to adjust for that in real time of the logs were being delayed by a variable timer). We would retain all the legitimate uses for logging while eliminating thoroughly unclassic, de facto cheat programs being run outside the client. Can anyone really say that would be a bad thing on Green?

[Glasken]

Gonna burst the bubble of people thinking the log files are a quick fix: OCR for streaming video is a thing, and its fast. And access to it is free.

Getting it to work reading P99 chatboxes isn't trivial, but once someone puts a click-to-use program together it will be just as prevalent as GINA, and not blockable. But if you take away one toy, someone will make another.

That said, GINA is kinda clunky and sad. Set a timer for important things, either physical or digital, and roll on with you life. If we were talking about packet reading and intercepting rare spawns or other bits of hackery, I would agree with you, but your current crusade doesn't have a happy ending. Let it go.

[Chryorn]

I think there is no need to even modify GINA. All that is required is a screen reader that dumps the contents of a chat window to its own log file. It would add one more program to the mix but I am sure the people who are able to configure GINA are able to find a suitable screen reader and just produce their own log file.
To prevent that it would be required not to have the relevant information sent to a chat window at all.

[kylok]

We're not talking about "an egg timer." Don't overly simplify what GINA provides.

It appears to me to be a sophisticated set of timers with real time graphs dependent upon info from logs. I'm not attempting to overly simplify it - that's genuinely what I see. I legitimately do not see why this should fall under the third party applications clause. If it told you when charms (random duration spells) were going to break then sure, ban it and anything with similar functionality - but it doesn't.

I've yet to see any evidence of this tool allowing a player to do content that they would otherwise not be able to do without it.

[Izmael]

OCR or not, something tells me that if we delay the log files, most / all GINA users will have to learn to play EQ without GINA.

Just my 2cp

I don't really care that much, never managed to make GINA work. Just want us all to have the best possible Green experience. Such a server launch doesn't happen often.

[soronil]

How would delaying a log by five seconds solve anything?

People adjust their timers for buffs/roots/spawns/mezzes accordingly.

I think the main beef people have with GINA is the "deadly boss mods" functionality. Real time notifications that tell you when something is happening that you need to react to. Buff timers are kids stuff. Removing buff timers is just an inconvenience. Removing real time notifications changes game difficulty.

If you delay the logging by 5s, GINA no longer works to warn you about "so and so begins to cast a spell" in time. Encounters are harder.

Again, classic feel > classic mechanics.

[The]

I'm pretty sure no one really relies on GINA the way you seem to think. A lot of people come to use GINA only AFTER gaining proficiency at their class, and use it to make the less fun tedious bits a little easier. I don't see the issue with using it to ruin other players experiences as there isn't really functionality in GINA for that.

[Izmael]

I'm pretty sure no one really relies on GINA the way you seem to think. A lot of people come to use GINA only AFTER gaining proficiency at their class, and use it to make the less fun tedious bits a little easier. I don't see the issue with using it to ruin other players experiences as there isn't really functionality in GINA for that.

MacroQuest, boxing or RMT don't ruin other people experience any more than GINA, yet they are forbidden.

[dekova]

MacroQuest, boxing or RMT don't ruin other people experience any more than GINA.

You sure you don't want to think about that statement a bit?

[kylok]

MacroQuest, boxing or RMT don't ruin other people experience any more than GINA, yet they are forbidden.

Boxing probably doesn't ruin the experience too much - but that's an issue that 90+% of the player base and staff agree should not be allowed. MQ on the other hand does have a very real and serious impact on the playable game. MQ injects code into the game, it's a completely different animal that allows automation of game play. It allows you to do content you would otherwise not be able to do without it.

[The]

MacroQuest, boxing or RMT don't ruin other people experience any more than GINA, yet they are forbidden.

Macroquesting allows for automation which GINA does not do and has been against ToS since inception, boxing and RMT I honestly don't have an opinion on. I understand the rules against it but I really couldn't care less what someone does with their money. But enough whataboutism. I still don't see why there is a fear that GINA somehow makes the game unfavorably tilted. Sure, spawn timers, but before I used GINA I just set them on my phone.

[kylok]

I still set timers on my phone, can't be bothered to set up these parsing programs.

[Glasken]

Boxing probably doesn't ruin the experience too much -


I would argue that boxing and RMT, and especially the two combined, truly ruin experiences for other people.

Go play any TLP server on live. Go see the boxer swarms on WoW. Both tend to lead to RMT for accounts and items, and they tend to not give a single fuck for anyone else in the game that might get in the way to their making a buck. On a server with no instances or layering the impact is magnified. There are even programs to help you run an entire raid all by yourself, 5-40 accounts all linked and synchronized.

Boxing 1-3 accounts isnt quite as bad, but still stifles interaction, and can be a gateway to boxing an entire group, especially as you end up searching for programs to assist your experience and make boxing more efficient.

I write this as someone who -really- enjoys boxing in EQ. Unlike WoW, the slower pace of EQ combat really lends itself well to boxing 1-3 characters without the need for extra addons or background software. More over, it makes leveling very efficient. Enchanter, Mage, Cleric is a particularly nice combination. I find it very fun, very rewarding, and still use the boxes in groups.

But. People don't stop at 2-boxing or 3-boxing. And full groups and even swarms are a real thing, and allowing it here will crush your dreams of dragons and gods and pixels.

I prefer P99s method. Once you allow boxing it will cause many more problems than the CSRs here will ever be able to solve or enforce.

GINA, and its ilk, are nothing at all like this in terms of community disruption or in the scope of its impact on others. In fact, I would say it's no more disruptive than someone assigning a /pet report command to every movement key.


Now, rather than whining about GINA or other log readers, lets focus on the real issues here, like how my dark elf cant walk through Neriak 3rd gate without the aid of a light source because it's so god damned dark that entire walls and floors go black, all while a giant illusion demon is looking me in the face bright as the noon day sun.

[Deathrydar]

What is GINA?

[Chryorn]

Phone is too inconvenient. I like to have them on screen.

https://i.imgur.com/0GhUGWk.jpg

[Glasken]

Phone is too inconvenient. I like to have them on screen.

https://imgur.com/a/6c4z70n

I love this. Now, can you make one to pick up death notifications and start your desired timer automatically? I'd like to have at least a 30 second window to get into position before the next spawn. Also this crucified froglok is gonna get burned into my screen if it doesn't drop an FBSS soon.

[kylok]

I would argue that boxing and RMT, and especially the two combined, truly ruin experiences for other people.

Go play any TLP server on live. Go see the boxer swarms on WoW. Both tend to lead to RMT for accounts and items, and they tend to not give a single fuck for anyone else in the game that might get in the way to their making a buck. On a server with no instances or layering the impact is magnified. There are even programs to help you run an entire raid all by yourself, 5-40 accounts all linked and synchronized.

Boxing 1-3 accounts isnt quite as bad, but still stifles interaction, and can be a gateway to boxing an entire group, especially as you end up searching for programs to assist your experience and make boxing more efficient.

I write this as someone who -really- enjoys boxing in EQ. Unlike WoW, the slower pace of EQ combat really lends itself well to boxing 1-3 characters without the need for extra addons or background software. More over, it makes leveling very efficient. Enchanter, Mage, Cleric is a particularly nice combination. I find it very fun, very rewarding, and still use the boxes in groups.

But. People don't stop at 2-boxing or 3-boxing. And full groups and even swarms are a real thing, and allowing it here will crush your dreams of dragons and gods and pixels.

I prefer P99s method. Once you allow boxing it will cause many more problems than the CSRs here will ever be able to solve or enforce.

GINA, and its ilk, are nothing at all like this in terms of community disruption or in the scope of its impact on others. In fact, I would say it's no more disruptive than someone assigning a /pet report command to every movement key.


Now, rather than whining about GINA or other log readers, lets focus on the real issues here, like how my dark elf cant walk through Neriak 3rd gate without the aid of a light source because it's so god damned dark that entire walls and floors go black, all while a giant illusion demon is looking me in the face bright as the noon day sun.

I agree with all of this. Good post.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

Phone is too inconvenient. I like to have them on screen.

https://i.imgur.com/0GhUGWk.jpg

http://imgur.com/mJGfv.jpg

[Chortles Snort|eS]

I don't like the git gud mentality. It has no place in a healthy community. I apologize if I came off that way.

GiT GuD

[Bazia]

why did staff even bother to remove buff timers if everyone was gonna use GINA literally inside their UIs to get buff timers anyway

[kabouter]

why did staff even bother to remove buff timers if everyone was gonna use GINA literally inside their UIs to get buff timers anyway

Because only a very small % of the users actually use GINA

[Tenlaar]

Because only a very small % of the users actually use GINA

What is the percentage and how do you know that it is the percentage?

[Gustoo]

He is a climate change homeopathic neurologist he knows his shit.

[BlackBellamy]

What is the percentage and how do you know that it is the percentage?

I told him the exact number but asked him to not to be specific when discussing it.

[Baler]

BlackBellamy is a forum alt

[BlackBellamy]

BlackBellamy is a forum alt

Aren't we all? :)

[Tenlaar]

I told him the exact number but asked him to not to be specific when discussing it.

This isn't Rants and Flames, go elsewhere with your dumb trolling.

[BlackBellamy]

This isn't Rants and Flames, go elsewhere with your dumb trolling.

Piss off, you're asking for exact GINA numbers from someone who is giving an opinion.

[Tenlaar]

Piss off, you're asking for exact GINA numbers from someone who is giving an opinion.

I'm asking for somebody who made a specific claim to back up that claim. I don't care if you like it or not. Stop trolling in server chat, go to Rants and Flames where you belong.

[Llandris]

MacroQuest, boxing or RMT don't ruin other people experience any more than GINA, yet they are forbidden.

woah wait a sec, I was on your side until I read this. Without getting into details, TPPs and/or RMT is probably the worst thing someone can do in regards to other players' experience. That's why its taken very seriously, and that's why players leave me wonderful posts like the quote below

[Tecmos Deception]

What is the percentage and how do you know that it is the percentage?

I don't need to know the exact number of tigers alive on earth to know that they make up a very small percentage of all cats.

[Tenlaar]

I don't need to know the exact number of tigers alive on earth to know that they make up a very small percentage of all cats.

And if your response to how you know that is "because I don't see tigers where I live but I see other cats" then we know that your answer is based on anecdotal evidence and conjecture rather than research and facts.

[Frug]

It's like the unclassicest thing ever, with the buff timers and voice announcing spawns.

Like... not sure how. Maybe scanning running processes every minute and seeing if it looks like GINA? Maybe dsetup.dll could add such a watchdog.

Some clever guys could patch their gina exe so it doesn't hash the same but I'm sure the smart folks behind dsetup could find a workaround.

Just my 2 cents

ReeeeeeeEEEeeeeEEE!