Who's more evil?

[Kendir]

Shadowknights or Necromancers and why?

[DMN]

I'd say shadowknights. Who would master an art of transferring their own life force to someone else if they were completely evil?

[Deathrydar]

I'd say Necromancers. A Shadow Knight's power is derived from the power of a Necromancer.

[Spacebar]

Enchanters. They will force you to kill all of those around you; friends, family, everybody. Then as soon as you've used up your usefulness to them, in your last dying moments, kill you. Your last memories being the dying faces of those you loved taken by your own hand.

Necros can only do that to unthinking, soulless undead.

[Swish]

Depends on the player behind the keyboard! Rules aside, both have the ability to pull a zone and FD it on you... not that it would end well for the player's account, but the possibility...

[Videri]

Necromancers can either be evil beings bent on corrupting the life around them, or just experimenters in areas other magic-users dare not tread. I believe Gnome necromancers are just experimenting...with relation to death.

Shadowknights, though, are necessarily sadistic and cruel.

Therefore, in general, Shadowknights are more evil. Individual necros and SKs may differ, of course.

[Chryorn]

When it comes to being evil we are more or less the same. Our brothers and sisters in plate just chose a different path.

Of course it is questionable when a Dark Elf, Erudite or Human decides to become a SK and it is an indication that they are flawed it some way, but for the truly inferior races - the Ogres and Trolls - becoming a SK obviously is the best they can aspire to.

It is a bit strange that the little maggo... - that the Gnomes are able to become necromancers. But considering that they are among those most willing to serve Bertoxxulous - contrary to the truly noble races - he probably had to... lower his standards. If your supply of servants is limited you cant be too choosy.

[El-Hefe]

For some reason I say Shadowknight, starting off a fight with a harm touch seems like a dick move.

[solleks]

neither, both are too dark and scary

[BlackBellamy]

You fail to study the ancient texts! Let us examine the Character Creation Lore:


Shadowknight:

Type: Unholy warriors.
Tools: Fear, Pain, Disease, Evil spells
Target: All that is good in the world.


Necromancer:

Type: Servant of the dark gods.
Tools: Studying.
Target: Power over the world of the dead.


I think this pretty much settles the debate. SKs are raging alcoholic madmen and NECs are sexy goth nerds.

[Fammaden]

Yeah its you who hasn't read the texts. Miragul, the orginal modern Norrathian necromancer, was interested in eternal life for his own personal power. Everything necromantic was a means to that end. They aren't just nerds who like collecting skeleton pokemon, they will step on you any chance they get.

They are physically weak from all the bookworming though. SK is just the dumber brutish version with muscles serving the some of same goals for similar gods, but doing it in melee battle. They are the religious fanatic crusader warrior of the evil gods, the converse of the holy warrior paladins of the light.

So in that regard, SK is more evil. Necros serve evil gods because that's where they see the true power they wish to grasp for selfish reasons. They will kill you without a thought, but could also be persuaded to spare you if you have something to offer in service of their individual quest for power. Its nothing personal, you are just in the way of something they want.

SK's though are on an unholy crusade to rid the world of all who oppose their god. Like the warhammer armies killing heretics. Really paladins are doing exactly the same thing, but the good races see their mission as just because they are out to eradicate evil beings. When you break it down, BOTH knights are actually more purely evil psychopathic religious wing nuts and necros are just really freaky mean spellcasters who have the power to manipulate dead bodies.

[Baler]

Based on the text shadowknight

Shadow Knights are unholy warriors who use fear, pain and disease to attack all that is good in the world.

Necromancers are masters of life and death, utilizing fire, magic, poison, and disease based spells to overwhelm their foes and assist their allies.

Necromancers are also those who want more magical power. They don't have to be evil.
Erudite necromancer is a good example of a neutral necromancer.

[Wonkie]

You fail to study the ancient texts! Let us examine the Character Creation Lore:


Shadowknight:

Type: Unholy warriors.
Tools: Fear, Pain, Disease, Evil spells
Target: All that is good in the world.


Necromancer:

Type: Servant of the dark gods.
Tools: Studying.
Target: Power over the world of the dead.


I think this pretty much settles the debate. SKs are raging alcoholic madmen and NECs are sexy goth nerds.

true, SKs probably do kratom

[Bardp1999]

Based on the text shadowknight

Necromancers are also those who want more magical power. They don't have to be evil.
Erudite necromancer is a good example of a neutral necromancer.

Yea but didn't they destroy half of their continent and produce The Hole?

Thats pretty evil

[Baler]

Yea but didn't they destroy half of their continent and produce The Hole?

Thats pretty evil

racism against erudites!
You just made the list!
Prepare to duel!

[Danth]

Real answer is Paladin of course. While Necromancers and Shadow Knights are out there killing people who mostly deserve it, Paladins are running around butchering Faeries and Pixies and gnomes and stuff because....uh....because apparently they think it's fun.

Danth

[DMN]

Yea but didn't they destroy half of their continent and produce The Hole?

Thats pretty evil

I'm saddened that you missed an opportunity to use the phrase "a hole", but not as saddened by the fact you think adding a basement to someone's otherwise boring house is evil.

[Kendir]

Enchanters. They will force you to kill all of those around you; friends, family, everybody. Then as soon as you've used up your usefulness to them, in your last dying moments, kill you. Your last memories being the dying faces of those you loved taken by your own hand.

Necros can only do that to unthinking, soulless undead.

OK very valid point here. I had really only considered sk and necro. Now that you've brought Enchanters into the mix what's everyone else think? And why no mention of dark elven Clerics are they as evil as the rest of this group?

[Madbad]

And why no mention of dark elven Clerics are they as evil as the rest of this group?

possibly the MOST evil

[AgentEpilot]

Iksar monks. Those pieces of shit will FD train anyone for any reason.

[BlackBellamy]

Well the one thing that strikes me in the lore is that Necromancers are essentially described as tools. So they are basically told you go learn and study the ancient books and get more power over the dead and your purpose will be revealed later. In essence they are given free reign to pursue their goals. On the micro scale they are free to perform good deeds if it serves their purpose. On the macro scale whatever they are doing they do for the purpose of a malevolent evil god.

Is performing good deeds to ensure eventual evil dominance less or more evil on the scale? Like on one side you're generating good which by an absolute measurement offsets some of the evil you do. However, this involves deception, which raises the evil quotient. And then there is the question of autonomy. Is the plunging knife evil in itself?

Considering the Shadownights, they seem to be self-starters. Their exact relationship to the gods is not defined. The gods do grant them favor, which means they are doing extra evil stuff that the gods like. Regular murderers and scum don't get Lifetap. Since motivation is a large part of what I consider evil behavior, I still have to tip my hat to the SKs.

Necromancers might be working toward a more evil greater outcome, yes. On that scale SKs are irritants, just some random murder harm machines set upon the world to bring some chaos and maybe distract others from what the Necromancers are doing. But for example if I met one of each on some forest road, I would think the SK more evil and more of a threat. I think maybe I can talk to the Necromancer, a scholar can sometimes be brought around, maybe they don't know what they're really doing. But that SK, I know he wants to touch me in my special place.

[Danth]

Don't forget the knight part of Shadow Knight. They're evil, but still basically of a lawful mentality and retaining a sense of honor. Comparisons with the mafia are frequently used. Even the Shadow Knights of the Ogres and Trolls count as the most intelligent and most nearly civilized members of their respective races. The Necromancer is much more likely to be the random murdering psychotic nutter. Who's more evil? Between those two it's a wash; they're using similar tools serving ultimately the same ends, and in cultures which can produce both they tend to share the same guilds.

In practice in Norrath virtually everyone is evil since nearly everyone kills whomever they wish for whatever reason suits their fancy, with but few exceptions. That being said I think Bards are reserved a special circle of Hell all to themselves. Over the past decade it has gradually become the server jerk class.

Danth

[Ennewi]

Who's more evil, Vader (SHD) or Palpatine (NEC)?

The very title of Necromancer implies an abiding love or appreciation for death, though the perverse nature of that could be seen as vile, if not evil.

Shadow Knights and Paladins seem to be two sides of the same coin in Norrath--interchangeable depending on circumstances. The Cabilis SK guards are named crusaders, along with the lizardmen SKs in Cazic Thule, while the ghoul cavalier is a Shadow Knight and a tortured revenant is classified as Paladin.

[Ashenden]

I gotta agree with Iksar Monks. They're born in the Court of Pain and the first thing Master Glox does is handcuff them.

[Videri]

The very title of Necromancer implies an abiding love or appreciation for death, though the perverse nature of that could be seen as vile, if not evil.

I hasten to add that "romance" is not a root of "necromancer." "-mancer" is a practitioner of a type of magic (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-mancer).
"Necro" comes from "nekros" (ancient Greek for "dead"); "mancy" comes from "manteia" (divination) (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/necromancy#English)

[Kanuvan]

necro's raise dead, but SK cause the death with harm touch, seriously nothing is more evil than geting hit by a harm touch for all your lifes

[Baler]

Dr. Frankenstein did nothing wrong!

[zodium]

PC druids are the most evil class by far. Ostensibly sworn to protect animals and nature, while in fact abusing their power over nature basically all of the time, spending all of their time dominating animals' minds and deliberately putting them in danger for personal gain or straight up killing their own deities.

[Ennewi]

I hasten to add that "romance" is not a root of "necromancer." "-mancer" is a practitioner of a type of magic (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-mancer).
"Necro" comes from "nekros" (ancient Greek for "dead"); "mancy" comes from "manteia" (divination) (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/necromancy#English)

Knew I should have used a better word than "implies" but no such word comes to mind even now. Perhaps one exists in French or Japanese. A curious occurrence or happy coincidence? Serendipity--that's it. But yeah, even necro-philia is merely a "fondness" for what is dead.

[Swish]

necro's raise dead, but SK cause the death with harm touch, seriously nothing is more evil than geting hit by a harm touch for all your lifes

It's a welcoming warm glow... how about attempting to pull those ancille cooks (https://wiki.project1999.com/An_Ancille_Cook) in Mistmoore?

[Chortles Snort|eS]

spooky nerds

[Aaramis]

spooky nerds

LARPers??

[Danger]

A SK is a necro that LIFTS.

Therefore a necro is an SK that DOESN'T LIFT.

Is LIFTING or NOT LIFTING more evil?

A SK wears PANTS. A necro wears a DISGUSTING SHEET.

Is refusing to wear PANTS and being a slob who just lazily throws a sheet over their skinny fat body to buy PIZZA ROLLS from a gas station at 330 am MORE or LESS evil than a man who wears PANTS that show off he doesn't ever skip LEG DAY?

The answer is clear. The necro is more evil than the CHADOWKNIGHT.

[Deathrydar]

A SK is a necro that LIFTS.

Therefore a necro is an SK that DOESN'T LIFT.

Is LIFTING or NOT LIFTING more evil?

A SK wears PANTS. A necro wears a DISGUSTING SHEET.

Is refusing to wear PANTS and being a slob who just lazily throws a sheet over their skinny fat body to buy PIZZA ROLLS from a gas station at 330 am MORE or LESS evil than a man who wears PANTS that show off he doesn't ever skip LEG DAY?

The answer is clear. The necro is more evil than the CHADOWKNIGHT.

Can't argue with that logic!

[Caledore]

A SK wears PANTS.

My Erudite SK would beg to differ. Every day is No Pants Day!

[uygi]

There's just something special about going no pants on a raid. Eventually the raid leader says something in vent, and that's when you know you've won.

[fadetree]

Halfling Rangers. Hideous little abominations and as evil as you can get. Yaas, I know, we don't have those here, but still.