List System

[Enshadowed]

The stories coming out of the Manastone camp are pretty concerning. Staying glued to your computer, unable to afk for more than 15 minutes at a time, for over two days in some cases, is going to get someone seriously hurt. This is madness.

"Then don't camp it!" I hear some of you saying. There's no way in hell I would right now, even if I were of the appropriate level to try. I'm not posting this for myself; I just don't want to see any dead nerds over an elf pixel. And I don't think it's hyperbole to suggest that's where we're heading, especially as more people join the queue, should the list system stay as-is.

I'm not a dev, nor do I totally understand how complicated any of this is or is not, but here's my proposal:


Take away the AFK checks.


Make the corpse FFA once the expiration reaches one minute.


If your IP changes after camping out, going LD, etc, your position on the list is forfeit.


Root the mobs in question, or code the corpse to slingshot back to spawn point.


Permanent character lockout for each legacy item.


Let people afk. You'll still need to pay attention incase of a group wipe, group leaves, or your item drops. But it wouldn't be the dangerous level of commitment we're looking at now. People are seriously risking their health over legacy items, or have the unfair advantage of multiple people account sharing to take their turns in shifts. Let's not wait for the worst to happen to make some changes.

This obviously creates new problems, like having 60+ people on the list for any given item. There's no perfect system, but I feel like permanent character lockout, and being unable to play your account for however many days you're AFK on the list, would be pretty self-regulating.

The list system was a wonderful idea, and I'm so glad they tried something. But I think a few tweaks would go a long way for the health and safety of everyone.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

This has already been solved. People are using Teamviewer/RDP/etc to access the char on the list and go through the afk checks. Checking IP, or even machine ID etc will do nothing. It has no reason to change under these circumstances, and people can spin up as many VMs and bring as many characters over that they want. This makes this an enterprise to share between 2-3 friends working in shifts to grind that one character to the top position and get their manastone. People who are claiming 60 hours awake and paying attention are probably not being completely honest. I'm sure they had someone pick up 5 hours here or there so they could get a nap in, likely through the more conventional method of just ld and have them log in from another computer altogether. When the reality of this settles in, it will be understood that sleep coverage will just be a necessity and that is how the camp will proceed.

My biggest concern, though, is when you have 2-3 people working shifts on a host machine via teamviewer, it starts to get awfully tempting to, instead of clicking one characters afk box, to start clicking several characters at once. Completely untraceable. IP address and machine/game ID, whatever other external methods of tracking, are never changed.

Something should be done about this sooner than later. Otherwise this "pure" green server is going to be just as tainted as the bug-riddled blue "beta" server that everyone looks down their noses at, with the majority of rare drops being held by an unscrupulous minority while everyone legitimate looks on gobsmacked.

[toasteroven]

Which is worse?

A. Players who take turns on one account

B. People who RDP and control multiple characters at once

C. One person staying awake for 100+ hours

You can't bash the players for responding to the system. You have to redesign it. If this was a real camp you would pass it on to someone else who may not even be logged in, out of the zone, or AFK up until that point. When it's their turn they would be called to the camp. That person would then start their grind for the next 5 - 30 hours. This sounds more reasonable than one person spending an entire week here, which is the projected time as of now.

There's no reason for the next person on the list to be here until it's their turn

[cd288]

The stories coming out of the Manastone camp are pretty concerning. Staying glued to your computer, unable to afk for more than 15 minutes at a time, for over two days in some cases, is going to get someone seriously hurt. This is madness.

"Then don't camp it!" I hear some of you saying. There's no way in hell I would right now, even if I were of the appropriate level to try. I'm not posting this for myself; I just don't want to see any dead nerds over an elf pixel. And I don't think it's hyperbole to suggest that's where we're heading, especially as more people join the queue, should the list system stay as-is.

I'm not a dev, nor do I totally understand how complicated any of this is or is not, but here's my proposal:


Take away the AFK checks.


Make the corpse FFA once the expiration reaches one minute.


If your IP changes after camping out, going LD, etc, your position on the list is forfeit.


Root the mobs in question, or code the corpse to slingshot back to spawn point.


Permanent character lockout for each legacy item.


Let people afk. You'll still need to pay attention incase of a group wipe, group leaves, or your item drops. But it wouldn't be the dangerous level of commitment we're looking at now. People are seriously risking their health over legacy items, or have the unfair advantage of multiple people account sharing to take their turns in shifts. Let's not wait for the worst to happen to make some changes.

This obviously creates new problems, like having 60+ people on the list for any given item. There's no perfect system, but I feel like permanent character lockout, and being unable to play your account for however many days you're AFK on the list, would be pretty self-regulating.

The list system was a wonderful idea, and I'm so glad they tried something. But I think a few tweaks would go a long way for the health and safety of everyone.

No offense, but I don't like any of your ideas.

1. AFK checks are needed or things will get a lot worse in terms of people abusing the system. While I think it's stupid to spend so long camping an item, I do think you need to be present. This is how things were back in the day. You held down your camp and waited for the drop. You didn't sit there AFK for several hours to get a valuable item.

2. Yeah, no. This will create rampant abuse and griefing.

3. Account sharing is legal on P99. Therefore, there should be no limitation for when you do it. If you don't like how you have to camp it solo, then go join a guild. Become friends with people and be social in the game so that they will help you. Offer to trade shifts from them while you're camping it for shifts from you whenever they camp it themselves.

4. Not really sure how this solves any of the current MS list situations.

5. I guess you could do this, but I highly doubt that, based on the length of the list and the immense amount of time it's taking most people to get an MS from the time they join the list to when it drops for them, that there are many people (if any) who have or are camping multiple manastones. Also, not classic.

[Phaezed-Reality]

whole lot of effort to cheat to get a digital pixel.

wonder what would possess someone to do that.

[Hoppkins_Wytchfinder]

Something should be done about this sooner than later. Otherwise this "pure" green server is going to be just as tainted as the bug-riddled blue "beta" server that everyone looks down their noses at, with the majority of rare drops being held by an unscrupulous minority while everyone legitimate looks on gobsmacked.

Luckily its not the earths gold or oil reserves we are talking about.

If people want to become Mr Robot and destroy their bodies with lack of sleep or become human MMPORG relay teams to get a classic item it seems more trouble than its worth trying to stop them.

Considering the devs dont get paid for the benefit i can understand why they are not breaking their backs to do it :)

[Fammaden]

Just get rid of these stupid items, they aren't necessary to enjoy classic everquest, in fact they make the entire community feel less classic. Get rid of all this legacy obsession and the people who just want to okay the damn game regardless will still log in.

[cd288]

whole lot of effort to cheat to get a digital pixel.

wonder what would possess someone to do that.

Eh, I wouldn't call it cheating. Account sharing has always been legal

[AegnorP99]

Just get rid of these stupid items, they aren't necessary to enjoy classic everquest, in fact they make the entire community feel less classic. Get rid of all this legacy obsession and the people who just want to okay the damn game regardless will still log in.

I'm starting to agree with this. People are sitting on the list for 50+ hours if another thread is to be believed...

[Cen]

This has already been solved. People are using Teamviewer/RDP/etc rerouting the MD5 hash to access the server icon laser space explosion doritos inserted into their own ..... gobsmacked.

Okay how many people are doing this versus not, let alone know what the hell any of this is your talking about.

I dont think 99% of the playerbase is elite hax0r

[Tecmos Deception]

People who are claiming 60 hours awake and paying attention are probably not being completely honest.

Lol.

Of fucking course they're not.

[Tecmos Deception]

Which is worse?

A. Players who take turns on one account

B. People who RDP and control multiple characters at once

C. One person staying awake for 100+ hours

You can't bash the players for responding to the system. You have to redesign it. If this was a real camp you would pass it on to someone else who may not even be logged in, out of the zone, or AFK up until that point. When it's their turn they would be called to the camp. That person would then start their grind for the next 5 - 30 hours. This sounds more reasonable than one person spending an entire week here, which is the projected time as of now.

There's no reason for the next person on the list to be here until it's their turn

#1 and #2 because they're gaming the system.

Nobody is going to stay awake for 100 hours. Maybe some people will manage 48. Few will last even 24. This would thin the camp out, which is fine, if we didn't have people gaming the system.

[Tecmos Deception]

Just get rid of these stupid items, they aren't necessary to enjoy classic everquest, in fact they make the entire community feel less classic. Get rid of all this legacy obsession and the people who just want to okay the damn game regardless will still log in.

You made an argument for keeping them IN, not removing them. If everyone who wants to play the game regardless will do so, then removing them is pointless because all those people are having fun one way OR the other. All removing them would do is upset the people who, despite having different priorities than most of us or engaging in some "technically this is permitted" "gameplay" to "succeed" over the more common folk, don't deserve to have their fun ruined just because you don't like their idea of fun.

[Tethler]

This has already been solved. People are using Teamviewer/RDP/etc to access the char on the list and go through the afk checks. Checking IP, or even machine ID etc will do nothing. It has no reason to change under these circumstances, and people can spin up as many VMs and bring as many characters over that they want. This makes this an enterprise to share between 2-3 friends working in shifts to grind that one character to the top position and get their manastone. People who are claiming 60 hours awake and paying attention are probably not being completely honest. I'm sure they had someone pick up 5 hours here or there so they could get a nap in, likely through the more conventional method of just ld and have them log in from another computer altogether. When the reality of this settles in, it will be understood that sleep coverage will just be a necessity and that is how the camp will proceed.

My biggest concern, though, is when you have 2-3 people working shifts on a host machine via teamviewer, it starts to get awfully tempting to, instead of clicking one characters afk box, to start clicking several characters at once. Completely untraceable. IP address and machine/game ID, whatever other external methods of tracking, are never changed.

Something should be done about this sooner than later. Otherwise this "pure" green server is going to be just as tainted as the bug-riddled blue "beta" server that everyone looks down their noses at, with the majority of rare drops being held by an unscrupulous minority while everyone legitimate looks on gobsmacked.

Can someone translate this from Neckbeard into English for me?

[Enshadowed]

No offense, but I don't like any of your ideas.

4. Not really sure how this solves any of the current MS list situations.


No offense taken. I'm just tossing out ideas/regurgitating ones already proposed. I understand your points and concerns, but I still disagree.

Number 4 is mostly to combat problems a new system would create. Like moving mobs out of camp to try and get a FFA corpse.

[bum3]

Leave them in. Ruin their money hording schemes. Make lists on all highly contested items. Let's go full in!

[Ataria]

Okay how many people are doing this versus not, let alone know what the hell any of this is your talking about.

I dont think 99% of the playerbase is elite hax0r

Agreed! I am not one of these. I have been 35, and I am dreading that list, I keep waiting for a day where I have had a solid good sleep and feel like it would be a day I could stay awake for a long period. I want a manastone, and I can push 24 hours awake, maybe 30, sadly I do not think I could do more than this. Not sure what the solution would be, given that it all "needs" to be classic.

I wish it could just be taken out or a higher drop rate until it is taken out, or I dunno.

[hotkarlmarxbros]

If people want to become Mr Robot and destroy their bodies with lack of sleep or become human MMPORG relay teams to get a classic item it seems more trouble than its worth trying to stop them.


I think maybe I didn't make my point as clearly as I meant to. The rules as intended will require this relay race. I don't really care about that, the rules are outlined clearly, everyone has to adhere to that, do what you can to get your piece within that ruleset. Whatever.

The problem, though, is that these rules that were laid out do not account for how people would go about doing this. And when you start sharing one account via Teamviewer across a few people to grind to their manastone, you start realizing how viable it is to do this same mundane task across several accounts, untraceable without direct human intervention. This implementation actively encourages boxing, something the admins have repeatedly stated they are vehemently against.

The original idea of rarity being enforced via having only a tiny spigot trickling out content that people will promptly sit on top of and stopper up is dated and terrible. You want to gate content? Make it harder. You want to make something exclusive? Make it competitive. This list system is an extension of a nascent idea to make something exclusive or rare, and it's shit. Zero improvement. Classic for the sake of being classic. You think the classic devs would've had half of these mechanics in the game if they knew a better way? They were pioneers. I respect the hell out of all these ideas, but to say that's the best way to maximize the fun/engagement/competitiveness/whatever is just wrong.

We saw this from the initial blowback p99 admins got from the removal of the pet window. People don't want to play a game because it's classic, they want to play it because it's good. P99 team, in all their hubris, mistook their inheritance of a AAA designed game from an era before DLC, RMT, loot boxes, etc for the idea that "just keeping it classic" was what was making p99 good. The game isn't good because it's classic, the game is good because of all the time and effort that went into it to make it good.

I'm straying a bit from my point, which is this: the list system is shit. And, to make matters worse, this shit list system is actively encouraging boxing that is currently untrackable from any of their automated methods. Which means an increase in the amount of boxing. Which means that some limited items are going to be obtained by these boxers, therefore some legitimate players are going to miss out on them. Not addressing this quickly and effectively runs the risk of turning the server into a circus that the exploiters don't take seriously and the legit players don't want to play on.

[Meiva]

Guise of the Deceiver - Never adjust to Mask of Deception. Never becomes legacy. Does this hurt ANYTHING other than it's rarity post removal? And some people's e-peen?

Manastone - Never removed from loot table. Never legacy. Value plummets. We all get a shot at this mostly worthless toy. A few classes get a small advantage.

Jboots - No list, no need for changes to the original timeline. It's value is moot compared to the other items on /list.

Rubicite - Never removed. No longer becomes legacy. It isn't a complete game changer. We will be swimming in Fungi Tunics in a couple of years anyhow. It's primarily fashion quest?

These suggestions most I've seen before. This is an example of alternate timeline classic. It still feels classic. We are already playing in an alternate timeline "classic." We should stop trying to preserve these unhealthy classic play styles. A lot has changed IRL in 20 years.

[bum3]

Guise of the DeceiverWe should stop trying to preserve these unhealthy classic play styles. A lot has changed IRL in 20 years.

Some of us got laid!

[Tecmos Deception]

We should stop trying to preserve these unhealthy classic play styles.

Nah.

[cd288]

Nobody is going to stay awake for 100 hours. Maybe some people will manage 48. Few will last even 24. This would thin the camp out, which is fine, if we didn't have people gaming the system.

As someone who yesterday was up for ~29 hours due to work, I agree with this sentiment. And that was something I was being paid to do. I'd never spend 24 hours without sleep camping something in a video game.

[Meiva]

I'd never spend 24 hours without sleep camping something in a video game.

You're not one of us. Some of us are very ill.

[Enshadowed]

As someone who yesterday was up for ~29 hours due to work, I agree with this sentiment. And that was something I was being paid to do. I'd never spend 24 hours without sleep camping something in a video game.

You also likely have a decent work/life balance. Camping pixels is all some of these people have. People have died from marathon gaming sessions, and I'm genuinely concerned we're going to have a serious problem in the coming months. Single players will either give up entirely, as account sharers and teamviewers circumvent the whole reason for the list system in the first place. Or pixel lust causes one or more players to push themselves into the hospital, or worse.

[baakss]

Listening to people on the list in Discord. They do not sound like they're doing well physically after 40+ hours with no afk's allowed.

[Hoppkins_Wytchfinder]

Good grief

[cd288]

You also likely have a decent work/life balance. Camping pixels is all some of these people have. People have died from marathon gaming sessions, and I'm genuinely concerned we're going to have a serious problem in the coming months. Single players will either give up entirely, as account sharers and teamviewers circumvent the whole reason for the list system in the first place. Or pixel lust causes one or more players to push themselves into the hospital, or worse.

It doesn't really circumvent the point of the list system. The point of the list system was to keep the camp from being passed off person to person within say a certain guild or group of friends. You cannot do this with the list system. Sure, a guild can account share across multiple characters, thereby increasing their odds of getting multiple MS's within their guild, but they can't simply monopolize the camp. Each character has to wait it's turn; that's what the list is designed to do and that's what it's doing.

[zodium]

Guise of the Deceiver - Never adjust to Mask of Deception. Never becomes legacy. Does this hurt ANYTHING other than it's rarity post removal? And some people's e-peen?

Manastone - Never removed from loot table. Never legacy. Value plummets. We all get a shot at this mostly worthless toy. A few classes get a small advantage.

Jboots - No list, no need for changes to the original timeline. It's value is moot compared to the other items on /list.

Rubicite - Never removed. No longer becomes legacy. It isn't a complete game changer. We will be swimming in Fungi Tunics in a couple of years anyhow. It's primarily fashion quest?

These suggestions most I've seen before. This is an example of alternate timeline classic. It still feels classic. We are already playing in an alternate timeline "classic." We should stop trying to preserve these unhealthy classic play styles. A lot has changed IRL in 20 years.

correct on every single count, also increase their drop rate significantly

[Enshadowed]

It doesn't really circumvent the point of the list system. The point of the list system was to keep the camp from being passed off person to person within say a certain guild or group of friends. You cannot do this with the list system. Sure, a guild can account share across multiple characters, thereby increasing their odds of getting multiple MS's within their guild, but they can't simply monopolize the camp. Each character has to wait it's turn; that's what the list is designed to do and that's what it's doing.

Lists
We would like players to have their fair shot at obtaining limited time items, and to that end we are devising a system for a server-kept 'list' of players in line to loot said item.
.............
We hope this system will prevent the practice of passing camps and/or items to friends, corpsing additional items, and so on. We believe this should closely mimic how the majority of camps were handled in classic Everquest, and is the best solution to mechanically enforce it.

Having multiple players take shifts on one account absolutely circumvents the spirit of the system that was created, as well as the fairness behind it. Without serious risk to personal health, a single player can't attempt this camp as it's currently implemented. 50+ hours at only two weeks in for some people, with the majority of the pop still in their 20's or below. That's insane.

The whole point was to give everyone a fair shot. That's not the case now.

[toasteroven]

Stop blaming the players... blame the system

[ravax]

The only way to solve this problem is to restrict the camp to 8 hours. After 8 hours you're done and removed from list and the next person is up. You didn't get your item, too bad. Next. Try again later.

[Videri]

The only way to solve this problem is to restrict the camp to 8 hours. After 8 hours you're done and removed from list and the next person is up. You didn't get your item, too bad. Next. Try again later.

Hm. Good idea. This would actually somewhat randomize it and prevent the need for missing sleep and rotating players.

[Castle2.0]

8-hour time limit?

Do you mean 8 hours at the #1 spot, or 8 hours on the list, period.

If 8 hours total on list at any slot, then you effectively remove the /list function for manastone. #2 will most likely wait 8 hours or more for #1 to get their stone.

Think through it. You'll see it's not feasible. If people can be kicked off, then you have people just randomly jumping on list hoping other people in front of them get the kick and stones start dropping fast.

May as well have a /random 10000 happen every 24 hours at the spot and top 2 people get a stone.

Randomly kicking people is BS.

[Lone Gnome]

imagine waiting 8 hours and not getting your turn?

[Meiva]

I do think you're on to something man. You get an 8 hour shot at #1. Then you get account locked for a week. I think it will probably simply result in the few just powerleveling chars to 35, but....

Keeps some of us from not sleeping or eating. And I wouldn't feel too badly about being locked out. Relieved probably.

[Deliverator]

In classic the drop rate for manastone was much more common than it is now. And the spawn rate of the evil eye was much higher than it is now. That means an 8 hour limit at #1 slot would actually likely lead to a manastone drop if we actually had classic drop rates. You'd get 16 spawns over an 8 hours period, 12 of which would be evil eyes, and with a drop rate of 1/5-1/6 you'd likely have a manstone drop.

[nyclin]

Guise of the Deceiver - Never adjust to Mask of Deception. Never becomes legacy. Does this hurt ANYTHING other than it's rarity post removal? And some people's e-peen?

Manastone - Never removed from loot table. Never legacy. Value plummets. We all get a shot at this mostly worthless toy. A few classes get a small advantage.

Jboots - No list, no need for changes to the original timeline. It's value is moot compared to the other items on /list.

Rubicite - Never removed. No longer becomes legacy. It isn't a complete game changer. We will be swimming in Fungi Tunics in a couple of years anyhow. It's primarily fashion quest?

These suggestions most I've seen before. This is an example of alternate timeline classic. It still feels classic. We are already playing in an alternate timeline "classic." We should stop trying to preserve these unhealthy classic play styles. A lot has changed IRL in 20 years.

sensible ideas all around. manastone becomes fairly useless once Kunark hits and it stops working in the planes. guise is nothing more than extreme fashionquest, rubicite is also fashionquest. jboots aren't truly a 'legacy' item and unless they're going to start dropping as "Journeyman's Boots from DRELZNA OMG GUYS" there's no way to tell where someone got theirs.

alternatively, just boost the drop rates so people can actually get the items in a reasonable amount of time instead of endangering their own health.

[cd288]

In classic the drop rate for manastone was much more common than it is now. And the spawn rate of the evil eye was much higher than it is now. That means an 8 hour limit at #1 slot would actually likely lead to a manastone drop if we actually had classic drop rates. You'd get 16 spawns over an 8 hours period, 12 of which would be evil eyes, and with a drop rate of 1/5-1/6 you'd likely have a manstone drop.

Not contesting your claim, but everyone keeps saying the spawn was faster and the drop rate higher on classic and I’d be interested to see the source(s) for that.

[baakss]

Not contesting your claim, but everyone keeps saying the spawn was faster and the drop rate higher on classic and I’d be interested to see the source(s) for that.

There was no such thing as an ultra rare drop in classic AFAIK. Can you think of any that weren't common/rare at about the same ratio people commonly give 80/20 or 75/25?

I'm pretty sure the concept of ultra rare drops came in during kunark when they started having 3 loot table mobs: common/rare/ultra rare.



Spawn time no idea though.

[fadetree]

alternatively, just boost the drop rates so people can actually get the items in a reasonable amount of time instead of endangering their own health.

ITT - we are replaying 20 years of successful mudflation and recreating the mechanic that destroyed everquest WHILE we are playing classic everquest! SUCH IMMERSENESS

[cd288]

There was no such thing as an ultra rare drop in classic AFAIK. Can you think of any that weren't common/rare at about the same ratio people commonly give 80/20 or 75/25?

I'm pretty sure the concept of ultra rare drops came in during kunark when they started having 3 loot table mobs: common/rare/ultra rare.



Spawn time no idea though.

What I’m saying is I’d be interested to see the sources for this rather than just anecdotal claims since I think it would be interesting to see what people thought of it back then

[Fammaden]

I don't think anyone was camping this shit 24/7 and logging stats on pop rates and drop rates during the first seven months. We are less than a month in and this thing is already on farm status. Was anyone even 50 or doing Lguk at all by now in April 99?

[ravax]

8-hour time limit?

Do you mean 8 hours at the #1 spot, or 8 hours on the list, period.

If 8 hours total on list at any slot, then you effectively remove the /list function for manastone. #2 will most likely wait 8 hours or more for #1 to get their stone.

Think through it. You'll see it's not feasible. If people can be kicked off, then you have people just randomly jumping on list hoping other people in front of them get the kick and stones start dropping fast.

May as well have a /random 10000 happen every 24 hours at the spot and top 2 people get a stone.

Randomly kicking people is BS.

--------------------

8 hours camping the item and then player is done. Next in line gets a shot. 8 hours is a long camp. If the player doesn't get the item, too bad try again in a week. That's more than fair.