/List Server Ruleset Should Consider Tweaks

[Erati]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2992726&postcount=1

Maybe it was slight oversight but the current trend is there will be people on the /list refusing to do any sort of participation in the slaying of the Placeholders for the camp they signed up for.

I understand why this wasnt written into the rules initially as its somewhat intrusive however the /list system already demands you be at your keyboard so theres really no reason members of the list should be forever excused from participating since they are obviously avail to do more than click a box, sometimes being at their computer for 40+ hours before they move away from a hiding spot ( as what just happened yesterday).

I won't name names but recently this week there was a person on Manastone list who rose all the way to #1 without killing a single Placeholder ( or assist in the kill) for 40 hours. Then when he became the top of the list, he still refused to leave his racially hid AFK spot despite typing to us telling the group we were bullying him when he had told us he would only begin to kill the PH when he was #1.

His initial PH sit up, summon a pet and buff itself as he refused to do anything about and it wasnt until he was petitioned by the entire group that he finally walked over to the spawn point and demanded to be invited to the group ( despite us pleading him to join for many hours).

I feel its a simple fix here. Just write into the rules that #1-3 should participate in killing the PH. Its absurd that the #2 or #1 guy can just force those below him to kill the placeholder for the list they signed up for. What are you signing up for if not to participate with others.

These list camps become small communities where people somewhat have to band together to get the line moving as fast as possible. People like this guy have potential to really ruin what the /list system has tried to set up which is mainly forced teamwork.

[Videri]

I agree. Even if kill participation is not hardcoded...just having a rule will get most people to do it, due to the threat of being /petitioned. Once one or two people get removed from the list by GMs for not helping to kill their own PHs, the community will remember.

Secondly, what can the reason for this nonparticipation possibly be? They can't go afk for long, so they might as well fight. And surely no one is sitting out for live frog faction? Just go to the Dead Side and kill a thousand frogs if you want, or buy an invis potion, or train through UGuk to get to LGuk (half the mobs stay dead anyway). How many times do people intend to run through UGuk on their 35+ character?

[cd288]

The fact of the matter is that the list is different from the camp. The list doesn't necessarily mean you are camping the spawn, nor that you are seeking the camp the spawn. The list is just who gets the next drop. So a group could be there camping for EXP (if for some reason they just cared about EXP and not the drop) and you could be on the list and get the drop.

What that means is that there's no obligation from anybody on the list to do anything with respect to kill PHs or the EE. Now, I could see an argument for saying that person number 1 on the list needs to be killing the mob if there's not a group there XPing (to avoid someone bottlenecking the list by refusing, or otherwise being unable, to kill the mob(s)), but there's no reason that anyone else on the list needs to help.

[Legidias]

This is easy to say, hard to implement. What if you're a cleric? Does it require hitting a mob? Getting on aggro table? Does a slow count? Does calming / mezzing adds count? Requires 24/7 GM to watch every kill or filter through a new petition every 28 mins?

Remember, the whole point of list is to minimize GM involvement. It is not there to guarantee loot or for player headaches.

Really the answer is to not be assholes to each other, but we all know thats apparently not the p99 player mindset.

[nectarprime]

The simple fix is to swallow your pride and just kill the damn thing. It's in your best interest to.

[Grakken]

List is new. Have some patience as kinks are discovered.

Rules need to cover this point. What they are doing doesn't violate the rules. Its irritating.

IMO: make the rule define /list 1 must engage PH in a "reasonable" time frame. list 1 has the obligation to bring sufficient force to engage. List 2-X need only maintain AFK checks.

[nectarprime]

The fact of the matter is that the list is different from the camp. The list doesn't necessarily mean you are camping the spawn, nor that you are seeking the camp the spawn. The list is just who gets the next drop. So a group could be there camping for EXP (if for some reason they just cared about EXP and not the drop) and you could be on the list and get the drop.

What that means is that there's no obligation from anybody on the list to do anything with respect to kill PHs or the EE. Now, I could see an argument for saying that person number 1 on the list needs to be killing the mob if there's not a group there XPing (to avoid someone bottlenecking the list by refusing, or otherwise being unable, to kill the mob(s)), but there's no reason that anyone else on the list needs to help.

This is how I interpreted it. the camp and the list are completely different entities.

[Legidias]

This thread and all the other list threads are the same:

Trying to jump the line when you show up as #2+

[Grakken]

The simple fix is to swallow your pride and just kill the damn thing. It's in your best interest to.

This mentality is the free epic WoW mentality. I dislike it. Its exactly then mentality which makes me never want to play WoW and why I love early EQ.

This feels like raidfinder to me. Who cares there is a healer not healing, a DPS not DPSing. Its their free epic, just farm it for them.

[Grakken]

This is how I interpreted it. the camp and the list are completely different entities.

This is such a moot point for EE. This distinction is only important for Ass\Sup.

[turbosilk]

[QUOTE=Grakken;3032978]This mentality is the free epic WoW mentality. I dislike it. Its exactly then mentality which makes me never want to play WoW and why I love early EQ.

This feels like raidfinder to me. Who cares there is a healer not healing, a DPS not DPSing. Its their free epic, just farm it for them.[/QUOTE

It's not really any different than killing a raid mob knowing someone with more points will get the drop you want if it drops. You can help kill the mob and advance whoever is in front of you or you can choose not to attend.

[bubur]

agree that list #1 and #2 should be required to present a reasonable effort to help

#3 maybe too, if 1-2 are unable to duo it, but 3+ imo is forgivable

[Tecmos Deception]

It blows my mind that they made it this open to player conflict. If their goal here was a less monopolized spawn and less required CSR attention, then they should have made a list system, minimum level req, and then random the manastone to anyone who was on the aggro list and the /list.

More hours = more chance of a stone.
Few hours = still at least a small chance of a stone.
Too low level or not at least being nearby = no stone.
No more requirement to put in your hours all at once.

Sitting nearby and getting on aggro list but not actually contributing at all wouldn't be eliminated perhaps, but it wouldn't be a big deal anymore since these modifications would increase the number of people spending time at the camp at any given hour compared to the current system where any sane person doesn't even bother showing up because they know they're 30+ hours even if lucky away from a stone. It wouldn't be a matter of 2-3 people carrying one asshole all the way to a stone because if they don't, it only lengthens their wait.

[Grakken]

It's not really any different than killing a raid mob knowing someone with more points will get the drop you want if it drops. You can help kill the mob and advance whoever is in front of you or you can choose not to attend.

Its extremely different. One is a random stranger. Another is a guildmate. I'd spend an entire weekend camping an item for a friend. I won't SoW a stranger.

[Raclen]

Secondly, what can the reason for this nonparticipation possibly be?

Don't try to get in the head of a man sitting on a wooden crate for 50 hours for a shit item that doesn't work in Kunark and beyond on a 20 year old emulated everquest server.

[Raclen]

It blows my mind that they made it this open to player conflict. If their goal here was a less monopolized spawn and less required CSR attention, then they should have made a list system, minimum level req, and then random the manastone to anyone who was on the aggro list and the /list.

More hours = more chance of a stone.
Few hours = still at least a small chance of a stone.
Too low level or not at least being nearby = no stone.

Sitting nearby and getting on aggro list but not actually contributing at all wouldn't be eliminated perhaps, but it wouldn't be a big deal anymore since these modifications would increase the number of people spending time at the camp at any given hour compared to the current system where any sane person doesn't even bother showing up because they know they're 30+ hours even if lucky away from a stone. It wouldn't be a matter of 2-3 people carrying one asshole all the way to a stone because if they don't, it only lengthens their wait.

I would just sit at that spawn with my other SK bud and harmtouch every EE that spawns, split every EE with my other best SK pal. No one else would have aggro.

[nectarprime]

Its extremely different. One is a random stranger. Another is a guildmate. I'd spend an entire weekend camping an item for a friend. I won't SoW a stranger.

Then you're an asshole. But, we've already established that in the other thread you posted.

[Erati]

This thread and all the other list threads are the same:

Trying to jump the line when you show up as #2+

Not at all.

I made this thread as a person ahead of this particular shitter bc I felt bad for all the people behind him.

Its simple fix, make #1-#3 engage the mob as part of the rules.

Or bump the lvl req up to a proper solo level.

[nectarprime]

Not at all.

I made this thread as a person ahead of this particular shitter bc I felt bad for all the people behind him.

Its simple fix, make #1-#3 engage the mob as part of the rules.

Or bump the lvl req up to a proper solo level.

There are classes that still won't be able to solo it.

Not just killing the mob is spiteful and immature.

[Grakken]

Then you're an asshole. But, we've already established that in the other thread you posted.

Why? I'll never understand this entitlement. Absence of charity is not hostility. You are not entitled to my mana, my buffs or my time complete stranger. You are an A-Hole for treating people this way. Do me a favor or you're a jerk. So manipulative.

My mana, my choice.

[Tecmos Deception]

I would just sit at that spawn with my other SK bud and harmtouch every EE that spawns, split every EE with my other best SK pal. No one else would have aggro.

Autoattack is as fast as HT. There's only a few SKs to even do this with anyways. And currently there is a permanent lockout besides.

I didn't think of your "tactic" but it would hardly be a speed bump.

If you want to grind out level 35 SK alts to get a chance at a MS drop with 10 other people who have autoattack, a bow, a root net, or whatever else, be my guest.

[nectarprime]

Why? I'll never understand this entitlement. Absence of charity is not hostility. You are not entitled to my mana, my buffs or my time complete stranger. You are an A-Hole for treating people this way. Do me a favor or you're a jerk. So manipulative.

My mana, my choice.

I don't understand how this still doesn't make sense to you - by not killing the mob you are increasing the length if time it will take for you to get your item, no matter your position on the list

By helping yourself you also help people in front of you. There is no downside.

[Erati]

There are classes that still won't be able to solo it.

Not just killing the mob is spiteful and immature.

I dont want anyone forced to solo this, I am baffled people will arrive at a list camp, spend 30+ hours in our vicinity clicking a box but refuses to click spell gems or attack.

Thats not what was intended.

[Lojik]

Lets rename "Green" to "Manastone" server and "Teal" to "Guise" server

[Grakken]

I don't understand how this still doesn't make sense to you - by not killing the mob you are increasing the length if time it will take for you to get your item, no matter your position on the list

What does this have to do with anything on this thread? You said I was an Ahole for not SoWing a complete stranger. Your response makes no sense.

And what you're saying here is not wrong, why did you ever think this was lost on me? Ever fought something on principal? Sometimes a perceived injustice is worth fighting for someone, even if it makes their life a little harder.

[Chocolope]

Fix the lockout. Awful lot of people looking to get their hand held.

[Daldaen]

Or how about if you’re in list positions 2-Onward every mob you kill in the camp vicinity adds 10 minutes to your AFK check timer. So if you kill 3 mobs you will have 30min until your next AFK check. If you are a group and pull 30 mobs over the course of an hour you add 5 hours to your AFK check timer and you can get 4 hours of sleep.

[Not_Mikeo]

OP's a scumbag. Daldaen with a solid (but probably unimplementable) idea.

[Legidias]

Its simple fix, make #1-#3 engage the mob as part of the rules.

Or bump the lvl req up to a proper solo level.


This is easy to say, hard to implement. What if you're a cleric? Does it require hitting a mob? Getting on aggro table? Does a slow count? Does calming / mezzing adds count? Requires 24/7 GM to watch every kill or filter through a new petition every 28 mins?

As I said previously, it's not as simple as just saying 'engage the mob'.

Solo level is a moot point as you're not gonna solo these as a cleric for example.

[Bazia]

not fair to change now after a bunch of people already got them the easy way hiding in a corner with an auto-clicker

[Erati]

not fair to change now after a bunch of people already got them the easy way hiding in a corner with an auto-clicker

Whys that ?

Its clearly an oversight that there's no mention to participate in any kill even as #1 of the list.

Just think for a second what #1 even represents: it's now your turn at the mob.

Nothing crazy has to happen here coding wise to check encounter logs, just add one sentence to the List Ruleset: " If you are #1, you must participate."

If you were a total dick for 30+ hours and by the time you reach #1 no one wants to help you, well thats your bed you made ;)

[Fammaden]

Number one should just claim to be a real life female who is too timid and terrified to unhide at such a dangerous camp. The rest of the list would bend over backwards killing as many spawns as it takes.

[Grakken]

As I said previously, it's not as simple as just saying 'engage the mob'.

Solo level is a moot point as you're not gonna solo these as a cleric for example.

Why can't a cleric solo? As a Shaman my strat = Spam my nuke. Cleric has a strong nuke. Why people think a cleric's "contribution" to killing EE means that can only heal is boggling.

[Magerin]

Im glad it took you this long to see the errors in this system. I dont get why anyone would wanna help the #1 guy. I ran into this at Jboots (a level 25 bard who could NOT solo this camp normally) and DE mask camp(level 35 druid who COULDNT solo this camp, too). The person ahead of me could sit around the corner in a non agro area waiting for someone else to do the leg work while being assured they get the list item upon it dropping. Nothing will fix this issue as it wasn't tested long enough to really fish out the issues that are coming to light now. Id like the AFK check to also do a PH check. If the PH remains up (or named) and you fail to kill it in the 10ish min window, you are tossed off the list and have to rejoin. Welcome to green.

[Fammaden]

Maybe #1 is getting off on the fact that he's rustling everyone and just ignoring him and killing the spawns is the worst punishment you can offer.

[Grakken]

Im glad it took you this long to see the errors in this system. I dont get why anyone would wanna help the #1 guy. I ran into this at Jboots (a level 25 bard who could NOT solo this camp normally) and DE mask camp(level 35 druid who COULDNT solo this camp, too). The person ahead of me could sit around the corner in a non agro area waiting for someone else to do the leg work while being assured they get the list item upon it dropping. Nothing will fix this issue as it wasn't tested long enough to really fish out the issues that are coming to light now. Id like the AFK check to also do a PH check. If the PH remains up (or named) and you fail to kill it in the 10ish min window, you are tossed off the list and have to rejoin. Welcome to green.

The only thing I don't like is 10 min window. For EE, 10 mins is reasonable. For Ass/Sup, Its a camp that needs to be broken, I think a reasonable amount of time would be 20-30 minutes.

[bubur]

Welcome to green.

more like welcome to your and grakken's weird imagination land

glad it seems like you got your items despite your whining and crying

[Erati]

You sign up for a camp, you should be a part of it.

We had an enchanter yesterday also refusing to engage bc he was keeping faction and said he would only begin to participate when he felt his Manastone was within 24 hours. Faction hits before then would be a waste.

(its 2 faction hits each hour btw)

[Argh]

Is it really surprising that people are automating AFK checks and not participating in kills?

[Cuktus]

I still feel that forcing players to engage is not a reasonably demand. HTing SKs is a great example, as mentioned earilier. Its not the lvl 35 ones you need to worry about. A pair of lvl 50 SKs, guilded with Mr. /list 3 can invis down and make a fairly good attempt at not just KSing, but killing the mob before anyone has a chance to agro. Yes, spamming "target nearest" and auto attack is a thing, no doubt, I don't think it would be required. And even then, a small distraction at the wrong time? Ya done, go home, they got ya.
The other issue the folks are interested in is that you should be able to solo the mob if you /list for it. I disagree. Not all classes can solo well. Just because a warrior can't use mana stone does not mean they shouldn't be allowed to /list for it. While I do agree with folks saying everyone should help out, if the warrior fears for his life if he is the first to engage and everyone else is just gonna stand by and watch him die so they can move up the line, well, I wouldn't engage first either. Saying solo it or go home is pretty crazy to me. Honestly, can a crap geared warrior even solo EE at 50?

[cd288]

This is such a moot point for EE. This distinction is only important for Ass\Sup.

Not really. Because an EXP group or soloer could show up and say they just want a spot to XP and kill the mobs but the person on the list still gets the loot. Meaning it supports the argument that people on the list are under no obligation to help kill the mob because the list isn’t part of the actual camp unless the people on the list are grouping or soloing the mobs for EXP while waiting

[mcoy]

Why can't a cleric solo? As a Shaman my strat = Spam my nuke. Cleric has a strong nuke. Why people think a cleric's "contribution" to killing EE means that can only heal is boggling.

At 35 as a cleric that'd be a rough solo experience. Would likely need at least 44 so they'd have reckoning and the mana to handle killing a shaman mob and then root/camping the pet off let alone killing it.

-Mcoy

[stewe]

I've said it before and ill say it again, THE LIST ISNT GETTING CHANGED, they put it in for less work not more coding work, you dont like it dont go to those camps, just like you cry that you arent obligated to kill the mob for them, they arent obligated to help you kill the mob either, once i get a few more lvls i plan on chilling in a corner on the list and watch shows etc and if someone sends me tells bitching they get put on permanent ignore, simple solution to crybabies.

[Erati]

I still feel that forcing players to engage is not a reasonably demand. HTing SKs is a great example, as mentioned earilier. Its not the lvl 35 ones you need to worry about. A pair of lvl 50 SKs, guilded with Mr. /list 3 can invis down and make a fairly good attempt at not just KSing, but killing the mob before anyone has a chance to agro. Yes, spamming "target nearest" and auto attack is a thing, no doubt, I don't think it would be required. And even then, a small distraction at the wrong time? Ya done, go home, they got ya.
The other issue the folks are interested in is that you should be able to solo the mob if you /list for it. I disagree. Not all classes can solo well. Just because a warrior can't use mana stone does not mean they shouldn't be allowed to /list for it. While I do agree with folks saying everyone should help out, if the warrior fears for his life if he is the first to engage and everyone else is just gonna stand by and watch him die so they can move up the line, well, I wouldn't engage first either. Saying solo it or go home is pretty crazy to me. Honestly, can a crap geared warrior even solo EE at 50?

Have you personally experienced this situation ?

It's pretty awful. Requiring at least the #1 position player to take some responsibility towards their turn is the minimum that should be expected is my only point. People outright refusing at #1 is a joke and needs to be adjusted in the ruleset.

[Erati]

I've said it before and ill say it again, THE LIST ISNT GETTING CHANGED, they put it in for less work not more coding work, you dont like it dont go to those camps, just like you cry that you arent obligated to kill the mob for them, they arent obligated to help you kill the mob either, once i get a few more lvls i plan on chilling in a corner on the list and watch shows etc and if someone sends me tells bitching they get put on permanent ignore, simple solution to crybabies.

No one is talking about a code change.

They just need to add 1 sentence in the rules: "Position #1 must participate in their kills or potentially be removed from their spot"

Out of all the positions on the list, being #1 and not doing a thing is a total flaw of this system.

[cd288]

Have you personally experienced this situation ?

It's pretty awful. Requiring at least the #1 position player to take some responsibility towards their turn is the minimum that should be expected is my only point. People outright refusing at #1 is a joke and needs to be adjusted in the ruleset.

I agree with that point. I don’t care about others in the list but if you want to do the list then you need to be able to solo the mob should the situation arise

[Grakken]

Not really. Because an EXP group or soloer could show up and say they just want a spot to XP and kill the mobs but the person on the list still gets the loot. Meaning it supports the argument that people on the list are under no obligation to help kill the mob because the list isn’t part of the actual camp unless the people on the list are grouping or soloing the mobs for EXP while waiting

This hasn't happened, it isn't happening it won't happen. It's moot. This concept is only relevant at Ass/Sup, not EE.

[Zekayy]

As I said previously, it's not as simple as just saying 'engage the mob'.

Solo level is a moot point as you're not gonna solo these as a cleric for example.

Clerics can solo it with undead nukes its an undead mob after all

[Grakken]

At 35 as a cleric that'd be a rough solo experience. Would likely need at least 44 so they'd have reckoning and the mana to handle killing a shaman mob and then root/camping the pet off let alone killing it.

-Mcoy

At 35 no one is soloing EE (except enchanters). You have a 60-80% resist rate. That's why 35 is too low level for /list with current rule set.

[Erati]

Imagine being #4 for over 30+ hours killing PH as you watch a guy never move an inch the entire time slowly rise into the top position.

Then when that guy hits #1, he still refuses to budge.

This is within the rules and acceptable in some peoples minds.

Shout out to Thesafux - he battled PHs for so many hours and was forced to be behind an AFK automater. Can't imagine how frustrating that has to be watching a guy get a MS when he refused to help anyone else prior.

[Cuktus]

Have you personally experienced this situation ?

It's pretty awful. Requiring at least the #1 position player to take some responsibility towards their turn is the minimum that should be expected is my only point. People outright refusing at #1 is a joke and needs to be adjusted in the ruleset.

Honestly, I have limited experience with /list. Just the jboots camp, and even then I had to leave after only a few hours. RL first and all that. So, sure, I will admit my experience is limited.

My understanding is that /list was created for two main reasons. Prevent small groups of players from monopolizing the camps and to prevent /petition spam.I feel the solutions put forward in this thread (forced soloabilty/forced engagement) are simply to0 easy to exploit to be valid solutions to the problem. Increasing the level cap, honestly, doesn't feel like it really does anything, as some classes/players may not be able to solo these camps at any level, including 50.

[Erati]

Honestly, I have limited experience with /list. Just the jboots camp, and even then I had to leave after only a few hours. RL first and all that. So, sure, I will admit my experience is limited.

My understanding is that /list was created for two main reasons. Prevent small groups of players from monopolizing the camps and to prevent /petition spam.I feel the solutions put forward in this thread (forced soloabilty/forced engagement) are simply to0 easy to exploit to be valid solutions to the problem. Increasing the level cap, honestly, doesn't feel like it really does anything, as some classes/players may not be able to solo these camps at any level, including 50.

For the most part, things are very friendly since players have to spend insane amounts of time together in a small space. So you build bonds and want to help each others move up. Theres rarely much ill will.

Its only situations like I describe where this system really takes a downward spiral as it needs to be taken care of now while its still early rather than let the issue continue to fester.

It will get worse and worse if people continue to refuse to help anyone else when the system seems geared to be like Scout rolls.

[Cuktus]

For the most part, things are very friendly since players have to spend insane amounts of time together in a small space. So you build bonds and want to help each others move up. Theres rarely much ill will.

Its only situations like I describe where this system really takes a downward spiral as it needs to be taken care of now while its still early rather than let the issue continue to fester.

It will get worse and worse if people continue to refuse to help anyone else when the system seems geared to be like Scout rolls.

Maybe there are other solutions that would... incentive player engagement? Maybe make all /afk checks the annoying ones where you have to /list ##### unless you been actively on the agro list for the mob? Maybe make the afk checks even more annoying? /gems till your eyes bleed if you ain't at least tagging the mob?

[nyclin]

At 35 no one is soloing EE (except enchanters). You have a 60-80% resist rate. That's why 35 is too low level for /list with current rule set.

the obvious solution here is to sit in the safe corner and quote Atlas Shrugged endlessly while reminding people that they should be able to solo the camp before they can get a manastone, maybe that will deter them from interrupting your experience

[turbosilk]

This mentality is the free epic WoW mentality. I dislike it. Its exactly then mentality which makes me never want to play WoW and why I love early EQ.

This feels like raidfinder to me. Who cares there is a healer not healing, a DPS not DPSing. Its their free epic, just farm it for them.

It's not really any different than killing a raid mob knowing someone with more points will get the drop you want if it drops. You can help kill the mob and advance whoever is in front of you or you can choose not to attend.

[Cuktus]

the obvious solution here is to sit in the safe corner and quote Atlas Shrugged endlessly while reminding people that they should be able to solo the camp before they can get a manastone, maybe that will deter them from interrupting your experience

Nah, lets take it up a notch and go with Andrew Ryan:D

[Man0warr]

Imagine being #4 for over 30+ hours killing PH as you watch a guy never move an inch the entire time slowly rise into the top position.

Then when that guy hits #1, he still refuses to budge.

This is within the rules and acceptable in some peoples minds.

Shout out to Thesafux - he battled PHs for so many hours and was forced to be behind an AFK automater. Can't imagine how frustrating that has to be watching a guy get a MS when he refused to help anyone else prior.

If the #1 person on the list helped you kill the PHs, what exactly would have changed? Maybe they die a couple seconds faster, which would result in an extra PH/EE over weeks of the camp. Ultimately, no extra Manastones would result.

It's in everyone's best interest to kill the PH. Your solution, even if it's just a rule change, still requires GM intervention to actually enforce - which is exactly what they don't want.

As for requiring anyone on the list to be able to solo, you may as well put the requirement as level 50 to get on the /list for EE and Ghoul/Supp. Even that is too low for some classes.

[311junkie]

It seems silly to me to not require the person in the #1 slot to be able to participate in killing the mob. I think a timer for inactivity of killing the ph or named would be beneficial to reduce entitlement and require said person to be capable to solo and/or bring friends to control the spawn.

If this were really classic could you imagine a situation where you enter a camp and someone sitting there invis tells you: "hey buddy - I was here first, but I can't kill the ph so please do that for me. By the way, I'm also entitled get the first rare drop because i was here first." /afk

[Videri]

not fair to change now after a bunch of people already got them the easy way hiding in a corner with an auto-clicker

You can't use an auto-clicker. Some of the AFK checks ask you to type /list 1234 (random number) before you can click the OK button.

[nectarprime]

the obvious solution here is to sit in the safe corner and quote Atlas Shrugged endlessly while reminding people that they should be able to solo the camp before they can get a manastone, maybe that will deter them from interrupting your experience

best post in the thread

[Videri]

This is easy to say, hard to implement. What if you're a cleric? Does it require hitting a mob? Getting on aggro table? Does a slow count? Does calming / mezzing adds count? Requires 24/7 GM to watch every kill or filter through a new petition every 28 mins?

I agree. Even if kill participation is not hardcoded...just having a rule will get most people to do it, due to the threat of being /petitioned.

No one is talking about a code change.

They just need to add 1 sentence in the rules: "Position #1 must participate in their kills or potentially be removed from their spot"

Don't hardcode anything. I'm suggesting the staff amend the rules to state that participation is required or you may be petitioned. Yeah, some people won't, but if they make a habit of it, they'll get booted.

[solidious77]

Why? I'll never understand this entitlement. Absence of charity is not hostility. You are not entitled to my mana, my buffs or my time complete stranger. You are an A-Hole for treating people this way. Do me a favor or you're a jerk. So manipulative.

My mana, my choice.

Its extremely different. One is a random stranger. Another is a guildmate. I'd spend an entire weekend camping an item for a friend. I won't SoW a stranger.

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Pretty sure the issue is not other peoples entitlement; lol. ;)

[cd288]

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Pretty sure the issue is not other peoples entitlement; lol. ;)

Lmao

[Erati]

If the #1 person on the list helped you kill the PHs, what exactly would have changed? Maybe they die a couple seconds faster, which would result in an extra PH/EE over weeks of the camp. Ultimately, no extra Manastones would result.

It's in everyone's best interest to kill the PH. Your solution, even if it's just a rule change, still requires GM intervention to actually enforce - which is exactly what they don't want.

As for requiring anyone on the list to be able to solo, you may as well put the requirement as level 50 to get on the /list for EE and Ghoul/Supp. Even that is too low for some classes.


There's no GM intervention required if a server wide player agreement is forged that at the very least the #1 player on a /list must participate in kills.

No one is really forcing anyone to sit there and solo it unless a person is truely being a dick, then its not a shock when that person gets to the top no one wants to help them.

Be kind to others and they will be kind to you when its your turn.

[Modwolf]

I don't understand how this still doesn't make sense to you - by not killing the mob you are increasing the length if time it will take for you to get your item, no matter your position on the list

By helping yourself you also help people in front of you. There is no downside.

[Grakken]

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Pretty sure the issue is not other peoples entitlement; lol. ;)

This definition legit applies more to the person who demands I SoW them because they asked than me not giving a SoW to a random stranger.

[nectarprime]

This definition legit applies more to the person who demands I SoW them because they asked than me not giving a SoW to a random stranger.

Ah yes, the made up situation that no one is talking about somehow proves your "point"

[Grakken]

Ah yes, the made up situation that no one is talking about somehow proves your "point"

It was in his quote, used to diagnose me. So he was talking about it ... .

[nectarprime]

It was in his quote, used to diagnose me. So he was talking about it ... .

... yes, he quoted you, who had made up some hypothetical scenario. Try to keep up.

[Grakken]

... yes, he quoted you, who had made up some hypothetical scenario. Try to keep up.

I am refuting his point about me with the very hypothetical situation he used? How could I NOT use this hypothetical situation to refute his point? To do anything to the contrary would be doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing.

[worm4real]

If this many people are upset with list it must be the compromise that everyone needed.

[Grakken]

If this many people are upset with list it must be the compromise that everyone needed.

Despite all my frustrations. I would still prefer the /list system as it is in its infancy to no list. It just needs some tweaks or rule clarifications.

[douglas1999]

Haha freaking anti social weirdos. What is so hard about just helping out? Christ. And not sowing a stranger does make you a dickwad. Mana in a videogame isn't the same as somebody saying "You won't give me free money irl? What a jerk". It's like the two situations are vastly different and have different relevant details.

[Bazia]

yeah the people who've been hiding in a corner for 40 hours straight havent been using auto-clicker ;)

not fair to change it now and make people actually play for 40 hours for real by forcing them to engage mobs

[Grakken]

Haha freaking anti social weirdos. What is so hard about just helping out? Christ. And not sowing a stranger does make you a dickwad. Mana in a videogame isn't the same as somebody saying "You won't give me free money irl? What a jerk". It's like the two situations are vastly different and have different relevant details.

Wow, the entitlement is real.

[solidious77]

Wow, the entitlement is real.

I honestly thought you were just making a point and i was kinda kidding with the whole narcissist thing, but if you're honestly not willing to give out a sow because it costs you mana, or because you think someone asking you for a sow is them being entitled, then you truly have lost touch with reality.

I bet you're going to have a fantastic Christmas this year. Probably surrounded by friends! :)

[Grakken]

I honestly thought you were just making a point and i was kinda kidding with the whole narcissist thing, but if you're honestly not willing to give out a sow because it costs you mana, or because you think someone asking you for a sow is them being entitled, then you truly have lost touch with reality.

I bet you're going to have a fantastic Christmas this year. Probably surrounded by friends! :)

Yeah I was just joking before when I said you were entitled. But now I really really super duper mean it.

Being asked for a SoW when you're busy is irritating. Why do soooo many shaman go /anon at higher levels? Cause they are so sick of being nagged to SoW people. I'm a jerk with no family and friends at christmas because I am honest and say "no", got it.

[bubur]

i cant tell whats a joke or sarcasm here anymore

[Videri]

yeah the people who've been hiding in a corner for 40 hours straight havent been using auto-clicker ;)

not fair to change it now and make people actually play for 40 hours for real by forcing them to engage mobs

Wait, can an auto clicker type /list afk 6889? Or /list afk 3451, or whatever the random 4-digit number is? Is it also an auto-reader? Maybe such a thing exists. Have you been on a list before, Basiah?

[solidious77]

Yeah I was just joking before when I said you were entitled. But now I really really super duper mean it.

Being asked for a SoW when you're busy is irritating. Why do soooo many shaman go /anon at higher levels? Cause they are so sick of being nagged to SoW people. I'm a jerk with no family and friends at christmas because I am honest and say "no", got it.

Words don't just mean what you want them to mean. Being honest does not make anyone a jerk, unless they are being a jerk.. And being entitled would be akin to standing beside you and saying "Hey man, how come you haven't sow'd me yet? you know I can't cast it on myself".

Simply asking someone for something does not make them entitled.

Also, have you never been educated in the act of giving? If something costs you maaaaybe 1 full minute of your time (to regain mana in this case), in exchange for bettering someones time/experience for 30x that duration its a no brainier - you should be happy to give them sow. There is an old silly saying that is true if you make it so - "A gift, no matter how small or large, is something that is enjoyed twice".

Not that I actually give a shit and I hate to be a broken record, but the root issue is not you being a jerk, or everyone else being entitled...

"Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others."

[aaezil]

More people trying to bully #1 out of the list?

[YendorLootmonkey]

I'm far too casual for this list nonsense or anything requiring more than 2-3 hours of effort, but as a hypothetical example:

#1 is a level 35 ranger, so meets the requirements for the list despite having the damage output of a level 14 druid and a level 21 rogue combined

#1 must participate in the kill

#1 is pissing fluorescent red into a nearby bucket from the amount of energy drinks he has consumed over the last 129 hours

#1 has a verbal agreement with everyone there that they will help now that it's his turn

#1 winds up and attacks the mob, everyone else (may or may not be his own guildmates) hangs around there FD or hidden, laughing.

#1 gets one-shot by the riposte from his first swing, ranger gates, and is out of range, losing his place on the list

#1 receives tell from Myuharin saying "HAHAHAHA THAT WAS HILARIOUS"

Would this scenario be petition-able as well by #1?

If not, this is wide open for griefing (it can and will happen, you know the sort of people that play here).

[Grakken]

Simply asking someone for something does not make them entitled.


Agree. And saying no doesn't make me a jerk.



Also, have you never been educated in the act of giving? If something costs you maaaaybe 1 full minute of your time (to regain mana in this case), in exchange for bettering someones time/experience for 30x that duration its a no brainier - you should be happy to give them sow.


Because it is easy I am expected to do it? This is entitlement. No one gets to tell me how to feel but me.


Not that I actually give a shit and I hate to be a broken record, but the root issue is not you being a jerk, or everyone else being entitled...


That's actually the core problem between the two camps of thought. One just want's everyone to get along and sing "kumbaya" and not worry about loot, just enjoy the experience. The other wants people to carry their own weight. Threads like this is what happens when these two people intersect.


"Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others."

Sweet, I'll make sure to get a therapist and tell him internet-dude diagnosed me.

[nyclin]

please, tell us more about how your masturbatory Randian objectivist fantasies aren't being fulfilled by everquest

[Jorgam]

I'm too low still and haven't /listed yet, but maybe something like was done on live when Fabled drops were happening could work here.

Make the group that kills the camp be the listed players 1-6. Lists were manually kept during that time and players were cycled into the group as persons got the item and left. If it is done based on list position, everyone can see who should be in the group and it can be verified. A 6 man group of melee or caster or healer or whatever should be able to drop the PH and friends.

If someone violates the rules of 1-6 being in the group, GM removes them from the list or ports them out.

This bumps XP groupers from the camps, but it doesn't sound like anyone would go to XP there anyway knowing their drops will go to /listers.

There are details to this that would have to be discussed and I'm sure some loophole might be found, but it worked back then with Fabled items, it could make sense here too.

Nishoba / Coldstep - Blue
Phaded / Glorified - Green

[bubur]

lot of good input here

but the reality is the list system works fine if there isn't just 1 or 2 people at a camp that cant take down the mob. we're quickly moving into an era where ph's breathe for all but a few seconds before they're downed

still a jerk move to not help if you're on the list, but that's just my opinion i guess

[solleks]

what is this

[aaezil]

i cant tell whats a joke or sarcasm here anymore

Onward to the deepest levels of forumquest!

[cd288]

I'm far too casual for this list nonsense or anything requiring more than 2-3 hours of effort, but as a hypothetical example:

#1 is a level 35 ranger, so meets the requirements for the list despite having the damage output of a level 14 druid and a level 21 rogue combined

#1 must participate in the kill

#1 is pissing fluorescent red into a nearby bucket from the amount of energy drinks he has consumed over the last 129 hours

#1 has a verbal agreement with everyone there that they will help now that it's his turn

#1 winds up and attacks the mob, everyone else (may or may not be his own guildmates) hangs around there FD or hidden, laughing.

#1 gets one-shot by the riposte from his first swing, ranger gates, and is out of range, losing his place on the list

#1 receives tell from Myuharin saying "HAHAHAHA THAT WAS HILARIOUS"

Would this scenario be petition-able as well by #1?

If not, this is wide open for griefing (it can and will happen, you know the sort of people that play here).

This is dumb

[jacob54311]

Automatic account deletion after 48 hours on the list, for the player's own good.

[Isomorphic]

I'm far too casual for this list nonsense or anything requiring more than 2-3 hours of effort, but as a hypothetical example:

#1 is a level 35 ranger, so meets the requirements for the list despite having the damage output of a level 14 druid and a level 21 rogue combined

#1 must participate in the kill

#1 is pissing fluorescent red into a nearby bucket from the amount of energy drinks he has consumed over the last 129 hours

#1 has a verbal agreement with everyone there that they will help now that it's his turn

#1 winds up and attacks the mob, everyone else (may or may not be his own guildmates) hangs around there FD or hidden, laughing.

#1 gets one-shot by the riposte from his first swing, ranger gates, and is out of range, losing his place on the list

#1 receives tell from Myuharin saying "HAHAHAHA THAT WAS HILARIOUS"

Would this scenario be petition-able as well by #1?

If not, this is wide open for griefing (it can and will happen, you know the sort of people that play here).

Or don't list if you can solo.

[worm4real]

I mean since soloing is such an important aspect of this why not just make the mob invulnerable to anyone below level 50? That way we can insure pretty much anyone can solo it and every will have equal ability to get it.

[Lulz Sect]

push button receive manaston

[aaezil]

If you are on the list for more than 8 hours there needs to be a flashing red box that says “Get a life loser log off and go outside” and if they dont its a 1 week vacation. 2nd offense perma ban.

Lets get this list moving!

[worm4real]

/list should require you to keep a game of Gems going to make sure people aren't AFK It keeps increasing until you have to keep 20 games of Gems going simultaneously.

[Kirrund]

Agree. And saying no doesn't make me a jerk.




Because it is easy I am expected to do it? This is entitlement. No one gets to tell me how to feel but me.



That's actually the core problem between the two camps of thought. One just want's everyone to get along and sing "kumbaya" and not worry about loot, just enjoy the experience. The other wants people to carry their own weight. Threads like this is what happens when these two people intersect.



Sweet, I'll make sure to get a therapist and tell him internet-dude diagnosed me.

Honest question. If you see someone holding a package and struggling to get into the door of the post office, do you help them, or do you stand there because "Not my fucking problem, carry your own weight" ?

[jacob54311]

/list should require you to keep a game of Gems going to make sure people aren't AFK It keeps increasing until you have to keep 20 games of Gems going simultaneously.

Maybe hit them with some EQ trivia as well. Test their love of the game to see if they are deserving of manastone.