Relative power - nostalgia only goes so far

[Seducio]

Fix me...? A = Awesome, B = Above Average, C= Avg, D = Below Average, F= Why me?

Classic:
A: Enchanter
B: Bard, Mage, Necro, Druid
C: Cleric, Shaman, Monk, Rogue, Wizard
D: Warrior, Ranger
F: Paladin, Shadow Knight

Kunark:
A: Shaman, Enchanter, Monk
B: Bard, Cleric. Necro, Mage, Warrior, Rogue
C: Druid, Paladin, Shadow Knight, Ranger
D: Wizard
F: (none)

Velious:
A: Shaman, Monk, Enchanter
B: Bard, Cleric, Warrior, Rogue,
C: Paladin, Shadow Knight, Druid, Ramger
D: Mage, Necro
F: Wizard

[Ivory]

It seems like you are trying to talk about power as "once you are level 50 and fully geared".

But still, not sure how warrior is stronger than hybrids at all. A warrior can't go solo in lower guk like a paladin and SK can.

[Seducio]

Warriors below avg in classic...

Do you think they should be Why me?

[Seducio]

Stronger in the sense I've seen Warriors make it to zone with large trains behind them due to mitigation of melee damage, while Paladins and SKs die on the way there

[Ivory]

Stronger in the sense I've seen Warriors make it to zone with large trains behind them due to mitigation of melee damage, while Paladins and SKs die on the way there

...why would an SK die to a train? They can FD....usually one of the few alive if anything goes super wrong, with the monks and necros looking around at all them bodies.

[Seducio]

(edit: Fixed - Ivory is right about SKs)

Fix me...? A = Awesome, B = Above Average, C= Avg, D = Below Average, F= Why me?

Classic:
A: Enchanter
B: Bard, Mage, Necro, Druid
C: Cleric, Shaman, Monk, Rogue, Wizard
D: Shadow Knight, Warrior, Ranger
F: Paladin

Kunark:
A: Shaman, Enchanter, Monk
B: Bard, Cleric. Necro, Mage, Warrior, Rogue
C: Druid, Paladin, Shadow Knight, Ranger
D: Wizard
F: (none)

Velious:
A: Shaman, Monk, Enchanter
B: Bard, Cleric, Warrior, Rogue,
C: Paladin, Shadow Knight, Druid, Ramger
D: Mage, Necro
F: Wizard

[Seducio]

Also to clarify, I mean stronger in a completely subjective sense. You are right about what you say about a Pal and SK in Lower Guk regarding soloing. In group scenarios warriors still have a HP edge and race edge.

There really isn't a objective answer here. But most folks would agree on general strength of different classes if they have played more than 2 or 3 different classes to get a feel for differing power levels.

I welcome this list becoming better and more reflective of objective community knowledge rather than my nostalgia.

[Firepuff]

I haven't tried a wizard in kunark/velious, what is the problem with them? :confused:

[Seducio]

Its not so much a problem with Wizards.

The mobs themselves start to have way way more HPs making casters of DDs less efficient.

And the melees begin to dominate. Enchanters escape the dilemna thru charm.

[Firepuff]

So a non-classic solution could be caster focus-effects(imp damage, mana-pres, etc...)

and give wizards the luclin-familiar line? :p

[Brut]

Add S class and slap Monk there in Velious.

[Tecmos Deception]

Its not so much a problem with Wizards.

The mobs themselves start to have way way more HPs making casters of DDs less efficient.

And the melees begin to dominate. Enchanters escape the dilemna thru charm.

If OP is talking about balance at "max level and geared" then wizards probably should be higher. VP clickies (and velious nuke clicks) are no joke, and aren't that much harder to get than many epics or torpor.

They won't even be "above average" but they at least won't be "why me?"

[webphi]

Warriors better than SK and pal in raid no doubt, but in group? As a chanty, as a cleric, and i guess many others classes, I prefer by far a knight tank than a root the mob all the time tank. When a knight can tank something, it is always better than a warrior imo.

[Tilien]

Warriors better than SK and pal in raid no doubt, but in group? As a chanty, as a cleric, and i guess many others classes, I prefer by far a knight tank than a root the mob all the time tank. When a knight can tank something, it is always better than a warrior imo.

I mean worst case scenario the Paladin brings root themselves... Paladins are probably the best tank at controlling a large or bad pull between blind, stun and root.

[webphi]

Thing is pals don't need root but for adds. Their target will be glued to them.
For warriors, better root the mob if you don't want it to smack others.

[astuce999]

I'd actually put bards at A in classic, B in Kunark, and C in Velious.

Here's an interesting article that talks about this:

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/powercurves.php

cheers,

Astuce

[Cuktus]

In classic, I think you are underestimating mana stoner clerics. Sure, most clerics ain't gonna see a stone, let alone get one, but the few who do are able to hang with chanters pretty well.

[Tecmos Deception]

In classic, I think you are underestimating mana stoner clerics. Sure, most clerics ain't gonna see a stone, let alone get one, but the few who do are able to hang with chanters pretty well.

Personally I'd put clerics as A for all expansions. They aren't solo powerful (though they can exp solo to 50+), but they have a lot of amazing duo and trio options, are clutch in groups, are are always loved in raids, have great utility, have the best epic, have cool clickies, etc.

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say by saying a manastone cleric can "hang with chanters pretty well" though. Overall power I'd say they're close to equal anyway, lacking in solo but equal in duo/trio/group and superior in raids. But even a manastone doesn't let a cleric mimic an enchanter so much as make them better at the stuff they could already do.

[Quinas]

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/powercurves.php


Step 1 on the road to data mining, endless theory-crafting, and min/maxing.

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah I want to reiterate clerics as A in every expansion. They're basically the inverse of enchanters, who are an A.

Chanters are the strongest (or maybe tied for strongest) solo class. They're amazing in duos, trios, and groups. They're kinda lackluster but still have some roles in raids.

Clerics are the strongest (or maybe tied for the strongest) raid class. They're amazing in duos, trios, and groups. They're kinda lackluster but still have some niche solo potential.


Why wouldn't both of those be the same tier?

More details: chanter epic is useful but not amazing, and difficult. Cleric epic is easier and amazing. Clerics get cooler clickies (VP especially) than chanters. Clerics have more race choices. Clerics have exp bonus, chanters have exp penalty. Both have loads of utility. Clerics are less common. Clerics can use manastone to great effect in classic.

Definitely both A tier in each xpac imo.

[Kron]

So you want a team that does this for free to start doing micro changes to values AKA balance dmg/hp/etc to then have to track it for months to so they can later redo it all with each natural expansion.

I assume this was the mind set:

Not asking much I just want a whole new game... Maybe if I get around to it I might donate but lets be honest I wont.

[Nirgon]

C is for cleric

Yeah ok

[Cuktus]

Yeah I want to reiterate clerics as A in every expansion. They're basically the inverse of enchanters, who are an A.

Chanters are the strongest (or maybe tied for strongest) solo class. They're amazing in duos, trios, and groups. They're kinda lackluster but still have some roles in raids.

Clerics are the strongest (or maybe tied for the strongest) raid class. They're amazing in duos, trios, and groups. They're kinda lackluster but still have some niche solo potential.


Why wouldn't both of those be the same tier?

More details: chanter epic is useful but not amazing, and difficult. Cleric epic is easier and amazing. Clerics get cooler clickies (VP especially) than chanters. Clerics have more race choices. Clerics have exp bonus, chanters have exp penalty. Both have loads of utility. Clerics are less common. Clerics can use manastone to great effect in classic.

Definitely both A tier in each xpac imo.

I had never really considered that. Yeah, clerics are amazing. Complete Heal is pretty dang strong. I think the problem is people really hyper focus on solo ability when they come up with lists like this. I did while reading it.