List System Proposed Changes

[this user was banned]

I know camping spawns for 24+ hours straight is classic, but is it really necessary to be there and have an AFK check when it's not even your turn?

Could we make AFK check only be done for the person in position 1 or up to position 3+? Could we also make the list system allow you to queue up and leave the zone if you are not in position 1 (or up to position 3+) and then notify you when you are within positions 1-3+ in which you will have a time limit to get to the camp before being removed?

At this point some people are either sharing accounts or literally not sleeping just so the AFK check doesn't drop them from the list; one is a violation of the rules, the other is an unhealthy side effect of the current system.

Despite the benefits, these changes would likely increase the size of the list, making the wait time longer, but this would also get people back out into the world until it is their turn or let them actually get sleep. Enforcing AFK checks for only the top few would make the longer wait time more bearable.

Regarding people getting on the list that are not able/willing to participating in the camp: If we were to enforce the AFK and zone checks for people in positions 1-3+ then this would help. Although, this might not even be a concern as more people might just wait at the spawn anyway and help clear just to speed things up and ensure the queue is actually advancing.

Are there any other problems with these changes that I might be missing?

[Natewest1987]

The first suggestion is actually kind of brilliant. I think the further you go from that point though, the messier the situation would become. If you allowed anyone to que up and leave the zone, then that list would contain every player above the level requirement.

[DMN]

only solution to list right now that would be simple to implement is that the winner is chosen randomly among all people on the list.

[Cen]

only solution to list right now that would be simple to implement is that the winner is chosen randomly among all people on the list.

This is too exploitable. Make it the top 6 people in line randomly and it works.

[stewe]

i dont know how many times it has to be said but lets give this another try abit louder, THE LIST SYSTEM IS NOT GETTING CHANGED, deal with it, they made the system for less work not more coding work

[DMN]

This is too exploitable. .

How?

[Tecmos Deception]

Sharing accounts isn't against the rules iirc. The staff have simply said that it's an at your own risk activity.

[this user was banned]

i dont know how many times it has to be said but lets give this another try abit louder, THE LIST SYSTEM IS NOT GETTING CHANGED, deal with it, they made the system for less work not more coding work

Says who?

I can't imagine that my first suggestion of limiting AFK checks to top # on list is that difficult to code.

[Cen]

How?

Because of the reason why they created the system in the first place, a scheduled mass join could be formed for a guild to have their own list, or DKP, or whatever system they want, to trump the odds by massing 30 people on the list in a single moment, cranking up the drop to them at the scheduled time to some upper 90s percentile. You can nearly gaurentee stealing a list item with ease at any time you choose and its even worse because you don't need to join a group at all to do so.

Your idea works perfectly if you make it randomly drop to, at most, the size of a typical group. Anything more, and its way, way easy to rig it.

[this user was banned]

Because of the reason why they created the system in the first place, a scheduled mass join could be formed for a guild to have their own list, or DKP, or whatever system they want, to trump the odds by massing 30 people on the list in a single moment, cranking up the drop to them at the scheduled time to some upper 90s percentile. You can nearly gaurentee stealing a list item with ease at any time you choose and its even worse because you don't need to join a group at all to do so.

Your idea works perfectly if you make it randomly drop to, at most, the size of a typical group. Anything more, and its way, way easy to rig it.

There's no need for random drops. Just join the list and go level until it's your turn. There's already a week lockout on lists after getting your drop and some have reported even longer lockouts recently but that might be a bug.

[DMN]

Because of the reason why they created the system in the first place, a scheduled mass join could be formed for a guild to have their own list, or DKP, or whatever system they want, to trump the odds by massing 30 people on the list in a single moment, cranking up the drop to them at the scheduled time to some upper 90s percentile. You can nearly gaurentee stealing a list item with ease at any time you choose and its even worse because you don't need to join a group at all to do so.

Your idea works perfectly if you make it randomly drop to, at most, the size of a typical group. Anything more, and its way, way easy to rig it.

You don;t understand. The stone is still going to drop a set (abysmal) rate no matter how many people log on. By your logic the manastone camp should have 60 guildies all on it right now.

[Dreenk317]

Limiting afk checks to the top 3 defeats almost the entire purpose of the afk check.... which is to make sure you arent afk camping one of the most coveted and sought after items in the game..... if they wanted people afk for half the camp and to only be present for the "end part", they would not of made these rules. Because, and I know this might be a surprise, but I'm sure they thought about this for more than five minutes and explored some alternate options, and settled on this.

Also, a big no to the whole getting on the list and then being able to leave the zone..... just, no....

I'm sorry, but if you want the super rare and awesome pixels, you have to put in your time, period.

[this user was banned]

Limiting afk checks to the top 3 defeats almost the entire purpose of the afk check.... which is to make sure you arent afk camping one of the most coveted and sought after items in the game..... if they wanted people afk for half the camp and to only be present for the "end part", they would not of made these rules. Because, and I know this might be a surprise, but I'm sure they thought about this for more than five minutes and explored some alternate options, and settled on this.

Also, a big no to the whole getting on the list and then being able to leave the zone..... just, no....

I'm sorry, but if you want the super rare and awesome pixels, you have to put in your time, period.

People already do waitlist for camps and you are allowed to leave until it's your turn. This is no different except the order is actually enforced.

[YendorLootmonkey]

You don;t understand. The stone is still going to drop a set (abysmal) rate no matter how many people log on. By your logic the manastone camp should have 60 guildies all on it right now.

There’s a slight difference in bringing 60 guildies to camp manastone on a list that moves in linear order and bringing 60 guildies to make sure the odds are in your favor when a manastone drops if everyone in the list could potentially win it.

Personally, I think after X minutes of spawning, the mob should auto-aggro the #1 person every server tick regardless if FD, invis, or hidden. If you doubt your ability to solo the mob, come back when you're level 50.

[Dreenk317]

You don;t understand. The stone is still going to drop a set (abysmal) rate no matter how many people log on. By your logic the manastone camp should have 60 guildies all on it right now.

And this isnt how it works. He was explaining that if the drop was awarded at random to anyone on the list. A guild could weight it in there favor by increasing their numbers in the random pool. Thereby making it not so random. At the current state, ONLY the person in the number 1 spot can loot, in fact, I'm pretty sure they have to, and if they dont the item rots, as in, they can not have a ffriend or alt loot the item. If a guild wants to get there members on the list, that's fine, if those members decide that the manastone or rubi BP is then a dkp item amongst the guild, that's there choice. But it would be very hard for them to actually monopolize the spawn with the current list system as all members would have to pass afk checks or get dropped from the list. If it was random reward to anyone on the list, a guild could easily, easily bring 30 people to the camp for 3-4 hours and have a very high chance of getting all manastones that drop in that 3-4 hour period simply be having a lot of people sitting there doing nothing. No thanks....

[Dreenk317]

People already do waitlist for camps and you are allowed to leave until it's your turn. This is no different except the order is actually enforced.

The whole "people already do their own waitlists" thing is the ENTIRE reason this list system is here. Those waitlists didnt work, were not enforceable, and subject to change by whoever held the list. Way to often someone would show up at a camp, and never get it because the current holder just rotated their friends through. Claiming they were on the "list"

[this user was banned]

The whole "people already do their own waitlists" thing is the ENTIRE reason this list system is here. Those waitlists didnt work, were not enforceable, and subject to change by whoever held the list. Way to often someone would show up at a camp, and never get it because the current holder just rotated their friends through. Claiming they were on the "list"

You still haven't given a valid reason why letting people on list leave zone should not be allowed. Top people on list are subject to afk checks and will get booted if item drops or a failed afk check. Guilds flooding the list will need to maintain top 3 afk check and deal with people killing mobs for the drops to advance the list to non guilds.

This is a waitlist that IS enforceable through /list.

[Phaezed-Reality]

I think its hilarious, in the morning i have my routine, i have to wait for an afk check, go brush my teeth, wait for an afk check do a few reps, rinse repeat, then shower (i can do it in 6 minutes now, cant afford to dry off have to get right into my robe, and sit back down. for the check.

[Fammaden]

Hilarious is one word to describe it.....

[Phaezed-Reality]

Hilarious is one word to describe it.....

classic?

[cd288]

There’s a slight difference in bringing 60 guildies to camp manastone on a list that moves in linear order and bringing 60 guildies to make sure the odds are in your favor when a manastone drops if everyone in the list could potentially win it.

Personally, I think after X minutes of spawning, the mob should auto-aggro the #1 person every server tick regardless if FD, invis, or hidden. If you doubt your ability to solo the mob, come back when you're level 50.

Agreed. Making it randomly given to someone on the list regardless of position will just make it ripe for guild abuse. If the list is 200 people long, for example, and it includes 100+ players from some guild who has just packed their members onto the list, you are essentially moving yourself back towards the scenario the list was designed to prevent (i.e. a guild trying to ensure Manastones only go to its members).

Sure, it wouldn't be 100% guaranteed to go to members of that guild, but just packing your members onto the list ensures high odds that someone from your guild will be getting the drop.

[this user was banned]

Agreed. Making it randomly given to someone on the list regardless of position will just make it ripe for guild abuse. If the list is 200 people long, for example, and it includes 100+ players from some guild who has just packed their members onto the list, you are essentially moving yourself back towards the scenario the list was designed to prevent (i.e. a guild trying to ensure Manastones only go to its members).

Sure, it wouldn't be 100% guaranteed to go to members of that guild, but just packing your members onto the list ensures high odds that someone from your guild will be getting the drop.

So the only thing stopping them from doing this now is the fact that they need to be in zone and have to do AFK checks?

Would limiting drops to 1 per character or just increasing the lockout time be any help?

[Nirgon]

Camp for Rubi bp started Nov 29th ~10am, dropped today around 10:30am

grats me

sorry u didnt get lewt

Ramal manastone next

Box Emperor Rogean is not changing his glorious list mechanic so you can exploit it

[Veeshan31]

DO people actually stay up for 50 hours camping manastone? This server really does attract mentally ill people.

[this user was banned]

DO people actually stay up for 50 hours camping manastone? This server really does attract mentally ill people.

People are probably sharing accounts.

Someone was in list for jboots for 25 hours today and finally got them.

[Frostback]

make AFK check only be done for the person in position 1 up to position 3

Agree with you 100%

[Rynon]

Just give everyone a manastone and mask via a command in game once you hit the level mark. Stop the insanity, save lives.

[Dreenk317]

You still haven't given a valid reason why letting people on list leave zone should not be allowed. Top people on list are subject to afk checks and will get booted if item drops or a failed afk check. Guilds flooding the list will need to maintain top 3 afk check and deal with people killing mobs for the drops to advance the list to non guilds.

This is a waitlist that IS enforceable through /list.

Because that defeats the purpose of the camp, if there is a line, you wait in it. You dont show up, say cool, I'm 4th in line, then go to lunch and come back and step into line in the 4th spot, that's just not how it works. And that's not how it should work here. It also would eliminate the risk of dieing and losing your place on the list for what could be, the majority of your time on the list. If you are in camp, and die, and cant get back in time, you lose your spot. If I can get on list, bind at camp, then go sit in the bank in Freeport till I'm number 3, then gate back to camp. I have circumvented the major part of the risk in camping said item. By spending however large a percentage of the time needed to get the item in absolute and complete safety.

There are reasons.

[this user was banned]

If I can get on list, bind at camp, then go sit in the bank in Freeport till I'm number 3, then gate back to camp. I have circumvented the major part of the risk in camping said item. By spending however large a percentage of the time needed to get the item in absolute and complete safety.

What risk? most people will just hide or FD. What risk is there now with them being overcrowded camps with PHs having a lifespan of seconds?

[mcoy]

People are probably sharing accounts.

Someone was in list for jboots for 25 hours today and finally got them.

The person before me was also there for about 25 hours, but I am not sure what position they were in when they joined.

I would be happy for some sort of modification to the /list mechanic. I haven't done an all-nighter like that in almost 20 years. An opportunity to have slept for just 1 full REM cycle would have been glorious.

Around 3AM I ended up setting a timer for 10 mins and I caught a dozen or two "microsleeps" between AFK checks until 8AM when I finally got a second wind. It wasn't much of one though, so I was very thankful to get a drop after only being #1 for a couple spawns.

[Sun Dec 01 09:19:56 2019] [40 Cleric] Mcoy (Human) <Department of Fun>
[Sun Dec 01 09:19:56 2019] There are 11 players in Najena.
[Sun Dec 01 09:20:21 2019] a magician begins to cast a spell.
[Sun Dec 01 09:20:23 2019] A magician is enveloped in flame.
[Sun Dec 01 09:20:36 2019] a magician begins to cast a spell.
[Sun Dec 01 09:20:37 2019] You have been added to the list.

[Sun Dec 01 09:27:40 2019] You are already on a list. You are position 7.

[Mon Dec 02 09:30:20 2019] You say, 'congrats'
[Mon Dec 02 09:30:25 2019] You are already on a list. You are position 1.
[Mon Dec 02 09:30:28 2019] Mcoy's birthdate: Friday, October 25, 2019 09:24:44.
[Mon Dec 02 09:30:28 2019] Total time playing Mcoy: 37 days, 18 hours, and 29 minutes
[Mon Dec 02 09:30:28 2019] This session: 1 day, 37 minutes, and 9 seconds

[Mon Dec 02 10:07:05 2019] --You have looted a Journeyman's Boots.--
[Mon Dec 02 10:07:13 2019] Mcoy's birthdate: Friday, October 25, 2019 09:24:44.
[Mon Dec 02 10:07:13 2019] Total time playing Mcoy: 37 days, 19 hours, and 5 minutes
[Mon Dec 02 10:07:13 2019] This session: 1 day, 1 hour, 13 minutes, and 54 seconds
[Mon Dec 02 10:07:13 2019] Your total time entitled on this account is 0.0 years.
[Mon Dec 02 10:07:15 2019] Taking a screenshot...
[Mon Dec 02 10:07:20 2019] You say, '25 hours'

Note that other player's names have been removed from the log snippet and attached screenshot.

-Mcoy

[DMN]

Agreed. Making it randomly given to someone on the list regardless of position will just make it ripe for guild abuse. If the list is 200 people long, for example, and it includes 100+ players from some guild who has just packed their members onto the list, you are essentially moving yourself back towards the scenario the list was designed to prevent (i.e. a guild trying to ensure Manastones only go to its members).

Sure, it wouldn't be 100% guaranteed to go to members of that guild, but just packing your members onto the list ensures high odds that someone from your guild will be getting the drop.

Ya right manastone could not drop for 30 hours straight so you are spending 30x100 for a chance at a manastone and still possible someone else is there to win the roll not in guilds. Even someone who just showed up for the last spawn it dropped on.

That is some rank ass logic. No guild would waste all their members collective time like that.

the lists will have more "random joes" on it but guilds aren't going to pack the list. This is only because right now random joe has 0.0000% of getting a stone. that's the only thing that will change with my idea.

[cd288]

Ya right manastone could not drop for 30 hours straight so you are spending 30x100 for a chance at a manastone and still possible someone else is there to win the roll not in guilds. Even someone who just showed up for the last spawn it dropped on.

That is some rank ass logic. No guild would waste all their members collective time like that.

the lists will have more "random joes" on it but guilds aren't going to pack the list. This is only because right now random joe has 0.0000% of getting a stone. that's the only thing that will change with my idea.

I think you greatly underestimate the neck beard guild obsession with monopolization

[DMN]

I think you greatly underestimate the neck beard guild obsession with monopolization

Dude this current list system is much more open to neckbeard abuse.

[Nirgon]

supply and demand isnt fair

i should have top legacy pixels and play 2 hours a day


:rolleyes:

how about enjoy your casual time in a casual way and not obsess over this stuff

[dcmnec]

perhaps killing the names could award you points (or maybe the faction system be used?). List would then be sorted by total points accumulated instead of the current list time stamp. You tag the mob, you get a point. You get the item and your points are wiped.

This would reward total time invested, not just relatively short sock bursts which others have mentioned is unhealthy and only seems to promote the block play it was intended to curb.

[DMN]

the kill thing just leads to abuse. Consider a handful of SKs about to HT it down in an instant an or enc/cleric/bard wiping its hate last at the precise time just before their buddy lands a big nuke on it.

Need to be random. Solves so many problems from bullshit multi-users on one account and people upset they have to clear PH/spawns "for other people to get loot". Everyone has a realistic chance of getting a stone, just like in classic. put in more time still rewards someone camping it with higher chance of getting one eventually.

[ScottBerta]

Crazy that people have the sort of time to sock this shit. I mean with the system in place no casual can get these items. However, for the die hards, if your willing to invest the time you will for sure get your item. I have no way to fix the system but it seems that if people are really this invested in game ... may be worth wasting a weekend or taking a couple sick days from work to ensure u get a manastone and then never worry about it again. But once u commit to camping it, make sure you have the stamina to see it through. For me, that’s not a possibility nor a sacrifice im willing to make for a legacy item or two. If you are, consider taking the plunge, head first, and be done with it.

[Dreenk317]

The only fix I'd like to see is an ip check. If you go LD and log back in with a different ip it should kick you from the list.

[Widan]

IP check doesn't matter cause people are using team viewer or whatever remote desktop software. People are also playing their own character on green and then remoting into a char at one of these camps, i.e. 2 boxing, which is against the rules, but good luck trying to figure out who's who.

[skorge]

Remove /list entirely. Fix drop-rates to classic. Communicate well together. Server now better.

[Warioc]

IP check doesn't matter cause people are using team viewer or whatever remote desktop software. People are also playing their own character on green and then remoting into a char at one of these camps, i.e. 2 boxing, which is against the rules, but good luck trying to figure out who's who.

Wouldn't surprise me if this is common

[aaezil]

Sounds like OP is mad that he didnt get bad item

[Dreenk317]

IP check doesn't matter cause people are using team viewer or whatever remote desktop software. People are also playing their own character on green and then remoting into a char at one of these camps, i.e. 2 boxing, which is against the rules, but good luck trying to figure out who's who.

While I'm sure you are right and people using remote desktop software, there are just as many that are just forcing ld and having a friend log in. Why not at least prevent those? The whole "we cant stop all of it, so we wont stop any of it" mentality would be like cops saying "we cant catch all the bad drivers and speeders, so were no longer enforcing any moving violations". Its just silly logic.
In this instance, any amount is better than none.

[Nirgon]

definitely needs a time to engage timer so you dont have lowbies/people who cant kill it taking it hostage

then its fine

the rarer than live drop rates should be fixed too of course

manastone is the only one that's off that I can think of

jboot seem just right tbh

rubi bp i got BURNED on but i think its about right

[dcmnec]

the kill thing just leads to abuse. Consider a handful of SKs about to HT it down in an instant an or enc/cleric/bard wiping its hate last at the precise time just before their buddy lands a big nuke on it.

You might not be able to use an in-game mechanic like faction for the valid reasons you stated, but they can easily add a kill counter, or afk check counter, or time counter or whatever, to their list database. Whatever flavor counter you want to add to address the concerns people have for ensuring active participation at the camp, the point is to modify the list sorting so your spot in the list would reflect your total cumulative time spent at the camp not just time spent in the current session.